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Can we stop this useless "GSL & major tournament arguments" please? They have NOTHING to do with the real balance of the game - which this thread is about -, because a gifted individual can make a bad race work OR a gifted and skilled individual can be screwed over by random chance or having a bad day. In general the "big tournaments" do not provide enough games to give statistical samples because you would need at least ten different players, matchups per map and so on ... and there is only a limited amount of spots "at the last rounds of a tournament". Preparation also plays too much of a role in korean tournaments and if you make a mistake there you are screwed while a weekend tournament doesnt rely as much on preparing for the opposing player but the pure skill and general preparation.
Just stop it!
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On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS: Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser". So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea. that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game. Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view. That post of yours is pure vitriol. The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success. This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine. Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help? I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player. I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim. 5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi. 2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group. None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game.
The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results.
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On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS: Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser". So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea. that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game. Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view. That post of yours is pure vitriol. The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success. This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine. Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help? I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player. I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim. 5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi. 2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group. None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game. The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results.
What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)?
So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far).
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If terran is strong why did they have their lowest Code S representation ever since GSL started?
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On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS: Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser". So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea. that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game. Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view. That post of yours is pure vitriol. The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success. This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine. Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help? I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player. I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim. 5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi. 2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group. None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game. The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far).
And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4.
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On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS: Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser". So the fact that Zergs are doing well in nearly every foreign tournament, online cups, and on ladder should be ignored because this is the first GSL season in the past 5 that a Zerg hasn't won? If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea. that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game. Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view. That post of yours is pure vitriol. The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success. This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine. Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help? I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player. I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim. 5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi. 2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group. None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game. The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4.
Z wins
DRG vs skyhigh
life vs kop
life vs jjakji
curious vs bang
effort vs yoda
true vs keen
songduri vs sC
T wins
dream vs roro
reality vs kangho
mkp vs shine
gumiho vs soo
Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang?
EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32
12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning
4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning
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On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 10:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:
For those quoting only the most recent season of WCS:
Dont forget that Life, Roro, Kangho, DRG, True, and Effort were all in the RO48 of challenger league (9 of the zergs from code S dropped, while only 1 terran did...). They were going against Terrans like Skyhigh, Kop, Bang and other terrans which are "lesser".
[quote]
If we went by your basis of needs to buff/nerf, terrans wouldve been buffed to hell in WoL. Foreign terrans sucked for a majority of WoL, even when terrans were doing extremely well in korea. that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game. Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view. That post of yours is pure vitriol. The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success. This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine. Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help? I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player. I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim. 5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi. 2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group. None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game. The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning
Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans.
Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point?
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On July 28 2013 06:12 Viserion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 04:11 keglu wrote:On July 28 2013 00:47 Orek wrote:On July 28 2013 00:21 Sissors wrote:
And now I can also post a screenshot of my win ratio being worst vs zerg and best vs toss. It isn't THE evidence, and it also isn't evidence at all. It only proofs your best matchup is TvZ (after ZvT). It doesnt proof anything regarding balance, let alone it being 'utterly broken'. If you think N=1 statistics have any relevance then it is better if you just stay aways from stats.
Quite frankly what else I noticed from that page: That is yet again indicates that SC2 players are really loyal. I have played MMO, RTS and FPS games. In every one of those games, a large group of players ran towards whatever was strongest at that moment. Could be gear in MMOs, weapons in FPS, or races in an RTS. Yet of all those games, apparantly only SC2 is different. The most games you played were vs zerg. The least vs terran. SC2 ranks shows a similar image. So that surprises me a bit, considering in every other game people run to whatever is OP, yet in SC2 all those zerg players so incredibly loyal to their race they keep playing it despite it being utterly broken. And not only that, also no one runs to terran race, despite that terran apparantly has easy time considering how OP they are. It was different during WoL. Early WoL: Terran was considered OP, Most played race = Terran End of WoL: Zerg was considered OP, Most played race = Zerg I guess Zerg underperformance in HotS started only recently. So, it might take a few more months until some of them switch to another race. Actually Zerg was least played race whole WoL but was much closer to other races at the end of it. Protoss was most played race for most of the time (outside of beginnig where Terran was more played) http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/raceYes that is true, however, terran is the least represented race from Platinum to Grandmaster globally at this moment, and it´s been like that for a long time.
Less players overall = less players in each league. Working as intended.
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On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:15 GhostOwl wrote:
[quote]
that's exactly what he would have wanted, over a balanced game. Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view. That post of yours is pure vitriol. The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success. This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine. Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help? I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player. I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim. 5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi. 2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group. None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game. The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point?
87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose.
I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility.
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On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:24 plogamer wrote:
[quote]
Not sure if nested quote was removed, but where the hell do you see any notion of buffing Terran based on foreign Terrans? I think we can safely assume that everyone here wants a balanced game - just differing biases and points of view.
That post of yours is pure vitriol. The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success. This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine. Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help? I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player. I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim. 5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi. 2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group. None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game. The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility.
Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand..
TvZ was 50% in June ffs.
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On July 28 2013 14:34 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
The nested quote says that since foreign zergs are doing great, while korean zergs are faring less than great, then zergs need a nerf because of the foreign success.
This means the opposite must be true: If foreign terrans are doing poorly, then terrans must need a buff even though korean terrans are doing fine. Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help? I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player. I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim. 5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi. 2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group. None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game. The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility. Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand.. TvZ was 50% in June ffs.
80% chance of winning, is an overwhelming chance
87.5% advancing is an absurd amount
I am not referencing statistics, so sample size isnt what I am discussing (I wouldnt mention only WCS kr if I wanted statistical sample sizes). At the VERY top level, terrans beat zergs. And I mean TOP level. For some reason there is a huge difference amongst those in the top 20 (or even the top 10) when compared to the next 20 below them (in a tournament setting).
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On July 28 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 14:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:
[quote]
Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help?
I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player. I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim. 5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi. 2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group. None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game. The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility. Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand.. TvZ was 50% in June ffs. 80% chance of winning, is an overwhelming chance 87.5% advancing is an absurd amount I am not referencing statistics, so sample size isnt what I am discussing (I wouldnt mention only WCS kr if I wanted statistical sample sizes). At the VERY top level, terrans beat zergs. And I mean TOP level. For some reason there is a huge difference amongst those in the top 20 (or even the top 10) when compared to the next 20 below them (in a tournament setting).
Basic common-sense dictates that we don't use percentages when discussing small numbers. If a Zerg won at the very top level, win-rate shifts by a HUGE margin.
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On July 28 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 14:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 11:49 plogamer wrote:
[quote]
Korean Zergs are faring "less than great"? Just speak straight man. You think Zergs need help?
I think it's a little soon to come to the conclusion that Zerg is in need of buffs, or that Terran is in need of nerfs. I haven't seen -all- the TvZs so far. But from what I've seen in major tournaments, the games have been won by the better player. I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim. 5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi. 2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group. None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game. The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility. Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand.. TvZ was 50% in June ffs. 80% chance of winning, is an overwhelming chance 87.5% advancing is an absurd amount I am not referencing statistics, so sample size isnt what I am discussing (I wouldnt mention only WCS kr if I wanted statistical sample sizes). At the VERY top level, terrans beat zergs. And I mean TOP level. For some reason there is a huge difference amongst those in the top 20 (or even the top 10) when compared to the next 20 below them (in a tournament setting).
You get your conclusion from a small sample size which pretty much makes it relevant. The only thing ''absurd'' here is that you draw your conclusions from a ''overwhelmingly'' small amount of data.
All that can be said is that better players wins. Win rates sure as hell isn't going to stay at 50% in a tournament, probably never will.
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On July 28 2013 15:22 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
I think it is a possibility. I stated earlier that my preferable change would be to give widow mines a multiple stage AoE like siege tanks. So it deals less damage the farther away from the middle, that way z doesnt lose 10 banes and some lings to 1 hit. I mean, just looking at premier league, things look grim.
5 zergs advanced from the RO32, 3 of which were in triple zerg groups (so 1 was guaranteed out). Soo is the only one that got out by beating the other races instead of the zergs, and Kangho got out by beating Jangbi.
2 zergs advanced from the RO16, and it was another triple zerg group.
None advanced from the RO8 with Symbol being the only zerg to take a game, and it was only 1 game. The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility. Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand.. TvZ was 50% in June ffs. 80% chance of winning, is an overwhelming chance 87.5% advancing is an absurd amount I am not referencing statistics, so sample size isnt what I am discussing (I wouldnt mention only WCS kr if I wanted statistical sample sizes). At the VERY top level, terrans beat zergs. And I mean TOP level. For some reason there is a huge difference amongst those in the top 20 (or even the top 10) when compared to the next 20 below them (in a tournament setting). You get your conclusion from a small sample size which pretty much makes it relevant. The only thing ''absurd'' here is that you draw your conclusions from a ''overwhelmingly'' small amount of data. All that can be said is that better players wins. Win rates sure as hell isn't going to stay at 50% in a tournament, probably never will.
What is my conclusion?
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On July 28 2013 14:26 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 06:12 Viserion wrote:On July 28 2013 04:11 keglu wrote:On July 28 2013 00:47 Orek wrote:On July 28 2013 00:21 Sissors wrote:
And now I can also post a screenshot of my win ratio being worst vs zerg and best vs toss. It isn't THE evidence, and it also isn't evidence at all. It only proofs your best matchup is TvZ (after ZvT). It doesnt proof anything regarding balance, let alone it being 'utterly broken'. If you think N=1 statistics have any relevance then it is better if you just stay aways from stats.
Quite frankly what else I noticed from that page: That is yet again indicates that SC2 players are really loyal. I have played MMO, RTS and FPS games. In every one of those games, a large group of players ran towards whatever was strongest at that moment. Could be gear in MMOs, weapons in FPS, or races in an RTS. Yet of all those games, apparantly only SC2 is different. The most games you played were vs zerg. The least vs terran. SC2 ranks shows a similar image. So that surprises me a bit, considering in every other game people run to whatever is OP, yet in SC2 all those zerg players so incredibly loyal to their race they keep playing it despite it being utterly broken. And not only that, also no one runs to terran race, despite that terran apparantly has easy time considering how OP they are. It was different during WoL. Early WoL: Terran was considered OP, Most played race = Terran End of WoL: Zerg was considered OP, Most played race = Zerg I guess Zerg underperformance in HotS started only recently. So, it might take a few more months until some of them switch to another race. Actually Zerg was least played race whole WoL but was much closer to other races at the end of it. Protoss was most played race for most of the time (outside of beginnig where Terran was more played) http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/raceYes that is true, however, terran is the least represented race from Platinum to Grandmaster globally at this moment, and it´s been like that for a long time. Less players overall = less players in each league. Working as intended.
According to those statistics terran is the 2nd most played race right after protoss.
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On July 28 2013 15:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 15:22 Mehukannu wrote:On July 28 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:
[quote]
The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility. Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand.. TvZ was 50% in June ffs. 80% chance of winning, is an overwhelming chance 87.5% advancing is an absurd amount I am not referencing statistics, so sample size isnt what I am discussing (I wouldnt mention only WCS kr if I wanted statistical sample sizes). At the VERY top level, terrans beat zergs. And I mean TOP level. For some reason there is a huge difference amongst those in the top 20 (or even the top 10) when compared to the next 20 below them (in a tournament setting). You get your conclusion from a small sample size which pretty much makes it relevant. The only thing ''absurd'' here is that you draw your conclusions from a ''overwhelmingly'' small amount of data. All that can be said is that better players wins. Win rates sure as hell isn't going to stay at 50% in a tournament, probably never will. What is my conclusion?
Really. Don't play games. This is online, just be straight. I don't know why you've been bemoaning these stats with terms like overwhelming and absurd.
/edit
On July 28 2013 15:25 Viserion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 14:26 Wingblade wrote:On July 28 2013 06:12 Viserion wrote:On July 28 2013 04:11 keglu wrote:On July 28 2013 00:47 Orek wrote:On July 28 2013 00:21 Sissors wrote:
And now I can also post a screenshot of my win ratio being worst vs zerg and best vs toss. It isn't THE evidence, and it also isn't evidence at all. It only proofs your best matchup is TvZ (after ZvT). It doesnt proof anything regarding balance, let alone it being 'utterly broken'. If you think N=1 statistics have any relevance then it is better if you just stay aways from stats.
Quite frankly what else I noticed from that page: That is yet again indicates that SC2 players are really loyal. I have played MMO, RTS and FPS games. In every one of those games, a large group of players ran towards whatever was strongest at that moment. Could be gear in MMOs, weapons in FPS, or races in an RTS. Yet of all those games, apparantly only SC2 is different. The most games you played were vs zerg. The least vs terran. SC2 ranks shows a similar image. So that surprises me a bit, considering in every other game people run to whatever is OP, yet in SC2 all those zerg players so incredibly loyal to their race they keep playing it despite it being utterly broken. And not only that, also no one runs to terran race, despite that terran apparantly has easy time considering how OP they are. It was different during WoL. Early WoL: Terran was considered OP, Most played race = Terran End of WoL: Zerg was considered OP, Most played race = Zerg I guess Zerg underperformance in HotS started only recently. So, it might take a few more months until some of them switch to another race. Actually Zerg was least played race whole WoL but was much closer to other races at the end of it. Protoss was most played race for most of the time (outside of beginnig where Terran was more played) http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/raceYes that is true, however, terran is the least represented race from Platinum to Grandmaster globally at this moment, and it´s been like that for a long time. Less players overall = less players in each league. Working as intended. According to those statistics terran is the 2nd most played race right after protoss.
Not in gold league and above.
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On July 28 2013 15:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 15:22 Mehukannu wrote:On July 28 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 12:51 Terrasmith wrote:
[quote]
The Ro32 was Bo1s, and therefore irrelevant for balance. Flash knocked out two Zergs there, as did First and Trap. In the Ro16 Kangho was the only Zerg to lose to a Terran, and he beat one as well. Maru outplayed Symbol, and Innovation is Innovation. That's this entire S2 Korea Premier league, and I don't see any TvZ imbalance in those results. What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)? So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility. Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand.. TvZ was 50% in June ffs. 80% chance of winning, is an overwhelming chance 87.5% advancing is an absurd amount I am not referencing statistics, so sample size isnt what I am discussing (I wouldnt mention only WCS kr if I wanted statistical sample sizes). At the VERY top level, terrans beat zergs. And I mean TOP level. For some reason there is a huge difference amongst those in the top 20 (or even the top 10) when compared to the next 20 below them (in a tournament setting). You get your conclusion from a small sample size which pretty much makes it relevant. The only thing ''absurd'' here is that you draw your conclusions from a ''overwhelmingly'' small amount of data. All that can be said is that better players wins. Win rates sure as hell isn't going to stay at 50% in a tournament, probably never will. What is my conclusion?
Oh, now you are saying that you don't conclusion? Then why the heck are you even trying to argue anything here? How about you stop posting if you aren't going to say anything anyway?
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On July 28 2013 15:26 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 15:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 15:22 Mehukannu wrote:On July 28 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)?
So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility. Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand.. TvZ was 50% in June ffs. 80% chance of winning, is an overwhelming chance 87.5% advancing is an absurd amount I am not referencing statistics, so sample size isnt what I am discussing (I wouldnt mention only WCS kr if I wanted statistical sample sizes). At the VERY top level, terrans beat zergs. And I mean TOP level. For some reason there is a huge difference amongst those in the top 20 (or even the top 10) when compared to the next 20 below them (in a tournament setting). You get your conclusion from a small sample size which pretty much makes it relevant. The only thing ''absurd'' here is that you draw your conclusions from a ''overwhelmingly'' small amount of data. All that can be said is that better players wins. Win rates sure as hell isn't going to stay at 50% in a tournament, probably never will. What is my conclusion? Really. Don't play games. This is online, just be straight. I don't know why you've been bemoaning these stats with terms like overwhelming and absurd.
I am not playing games, I have stated my conclusion already... which is not very conclusive. I also dont get why you are afraid of adjectives.
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On July 28 2013 15:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 15:26 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 15:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 15:22 Mehukannu wrote:On July 28 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:
[quote]
And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility. Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand.. TvZ was 50% in June ffs. 80% chance of winning, is an overwhelming chance 87.5% advancing is an absurd amount I am not referencing statistics, so sample size isnt what I am discussing (I wouldnt mention only WCS kr if I wanted statistical sample sizes). At the VERY top level, terrans beat zergs. And I mean TOP level. For some reason there is a huge difference amongst those in the top 20 (or even the top 10) when compared to the next 20 below them (in a tournament setting). You get your conclusion from a small sample size which pretty much makes it relevant. The only thing ''absurd'' here is that you draw your conclusions from a ''overwhelmingly'' small amount of data. All that can be said is that better players wins. Win rates sure as hell isn't going to stay at 50% in a tournament, probably never will. What is my conclusion? Really. Don't play games. This is online, just be straight. I don't know why you've been bemoaning these stats with terms like overwhelming and absurd. I am not playing games, I have stated my conclusion already... which is not very conclusive. I also dont get why you are afraid of adjectives.
Afraid? More like annoyed.
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On July 28 2013 15:31 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 15:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 15:22 Mehukannu wrote:On July 28 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
What do you have to say about so far hyvaa/life being the only zerg that dropped from the premier league to be returning to it next season? And of the other 2 zergs going back up, 1 was almost a full zerg bracket (only skyhigh being the offrace) and True (who did crush pretty much everybody)?
So 9 dropped down, and 1 returns (so far). And the only two Terrans who are returning are Bbyong and (possibly) Flash. That's not entirely relevant. Across all of the OSL challenger league ZvT matches, Zerg has won 7 Bo3s and Terran 4. Z wins DRG vs skyhigh life vs kop life vs jjakji curious vs bang effort vs yoda true vs keen songduri vs sC T wins dream vs roro reality vs kangho mkp vs shine gumiho vs soo Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang? EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32 12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning 4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility. Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand.. TvZ was 50% in June ffs. 80% chance of winning, is an overwhelming chance 87.5% advancing is an absurd amount I am not referencing statistics, so sample size isnt what I am discussing (I wouldnt mention only WCS kr if I wanted statistical sample sizes). At the VERY top level, terrans beat zergs. And I mean TOP level. For some reason there is a huge difference amongst those in the top 20 (or even the top 10) when compared to the next 20 below them (in a tournament setting). You get your conclusion from a small sample size which pretty much makes it relevant. The only thing ''absurd'' here is that you draw your conclusions from a ''overwhelmingly'' small amount of data. All that can be said is that better players wins. Win rates sure as hell isn't going to stay at 50% in a tournament, probably never will. What is my conclusion? Oh, now you are saying that you don't conclusion? Then why the heck are you even trying to argue anything here? How about you stop posting if you aren't going to say anything anyway?
Sorry, you said my conclusion was from a small sample size. I thought you knew my conclusion already, it seems you dont. I will restate it again for you:
I think there is a possibility that the matchup favors terrans and my primary idea is that the widow mine needs to have multiple areas of AoE damage like the siege tank. This is my conclusion and concept idea to maybe fix it if there is in fact an issue with balance. I have said this specifically before already, I thought you wouldve seen it since you knew what my conclusion was.
The reason I am citing what I am is because I believe that the imbalance is primarily at the very top of play. The very top of play is important to me, because I dont want it to be considered an upset for a zerg to beat a terran. I like watching premier league and dont have enough time to watch everything else.
On July 28 2013 15:33 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 15:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 15:26 plogamer wrote:On July 28 2013 15:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 15:22 Mehukannu wrote:On July 28 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:34 Rhaegal wrote:On July 28 2013 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 28 2013 14:02 Terrasmith wrote:On July 28 2013 13:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Z wins
DRG vs skyhigh
life vs kop
life vs jjakji
curious vs bang
effort vs yoda
true vs keen
songduri vs sC
T wins
dream vs roro
reality vs kangho
mkp vs shine
gumiho vs soo
Who are skyhigh, kop, or bang?
EDIT: And it is most relevant because 9 zergs dropped while only 1 T dropped from the RO32
12 zergs dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning
4 terrans dropped to challenger league from premier, 1 (maybe 2) returning Premier league also started with 14 Zergs to 8 Terrans. Mamuri and Songduri are no better known than the Terrans that you listed; what's your point? 87.5% advance rate is absurd. If 12 zergs advanced from the RO32, hell wouldve broken loose. I also didnt even include mamuri, I missed that one. So you were wrong even, 5 terrans, not 4. Regardless, my point was that 4 of the 7 zerg wins were overwhelmingly in favor of the zerg. If the zerg lost those, then I would declare without a doubt that there is imbalance in the matchup. It didnt happen though, so it is only a possibility. Absurdly small sample size, and you're using words like "overwhelmingly" and "absurd". I just don't understand.. TvZ was 50% in June ffs. 80% chance of winning, is an overwhelming chance 87.5% advancing is an absurd amount I am not referencing statistics, so sample size isnt what I am discussing (I wouldnt mention only WCS kr if I wanted statistical sample sizes). At the VERY top level, terrans beat zergs. And I mean TOP level. For some reason there is a huge difference amongst those in the top 20 (or even the top 10) when compared to the next 20 below them (in a tournament setting). You get your conclusion from a small sample size which pretty much makes it relevant. The only thing ''absurd'' here is that you draw your conclusions from a ''overwhelmingly'' small amount of data. All that can be said is that better players wins. Win rates sure as hell isn't going to stay at 50% in a tournament, probably never will. What is my conclusion? Really. Don't play games. This is online, just be straight. I don't know why you've been bemoaning these stats with terms like overwhelming and absurd. I am not playing games, I have stated my conclusion already... which is not very conclusive. I also dont get why you are afraid of adjectives. Afraid? More like annoyed.
Sorry that I use descriptive words when typing?
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EPT
