On July 26 2013 23:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: @GreenGringo This issue you are bringing up is actually NOT a balance problem the problem started with you letting them kill your 8 tech addons..... If you are getting swarmed that hard in your main base you have already lost anyways.... By the time that zlots or zerglings could do that you would have atleast 1-2 production lines from rax and you shouldve rallied to defend and not lost that many if you did then you got the upper hand because they wasted ALOT of units to do it.... and for what something that you can just add on as you can or just push ftw at that point depending on the point in time....
You've misunderstood my post. I'm in complete agreement with you. It's the Terran apologists in this thread who have proposed winning games by bypassing the army and invading T's production.
"Apologists", what utter nonsense. That presumes that saying that the game is balanced (exactly as David Kim today said about tournament and ladder stats ) is somehow wrong, and this is the best thing, exactly in the same way defending rapists is bad (the term apologists is most commonly used in conjunction with rape these days). To equate providing concrete evidence for the fallacy of your statements with defending rape is beyond malignant. You're here to troll, or you're entirely delusional about the world.
You talk about trolling, yet you suggest that I'm equating people to rapists merely because I used the word "apologist"?
When did you come back? I thought you were done with SC2 because Supernova won a game. "Starcraft is dead to me" or some such.
Yep, that's true. Was just making a few posts to let people know why it's a fundamentally flawed game and why they're wasting their time...
On July 26 2013 23:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: @GreenGringo This issue you are bringing up is actually NOT a balance problem the problem started with you letting them kill your 8 tech addons..... If you are getting swarmed that hard in your main base you have already lost anyways.... By the time that zlots or zerglings could do that you would have atleast 1-2 production lines from rax and you shouldve rallied to defend and not lost that many if you did then you got the upper hand because they wasted ALOT of units to do it.... and for what something that you can just add on as you can or just push ftw at that point depending on the point in time....
You've misunderstood my post. I'm in complete agreement with you. It's the Terran apologists in this thread who have proposed winning games by bypassing the army and invading T's production.
"Apologists", what utter nonsense. That presumes that saying that the game is balanced (exactly as David Kim today said about tournament and ladder stats ) is somehow wrong, and this is the best thing, exactly in the same way defending rapists is bad (the term apologists is most commonly used in conjunction with rape these days). To equate providing concrete evidence for the fallacy of your statements with defending rape is beyond malignant. You're here to troll, or you're entirely delusional about the world.
You talk about trolling, yet you suggest that I'm equating people to rapists merely because I used the word "apologist"?
When did you come back? I thought you were done with SC2 because Supernova won a game. "Starcraft is dead to me" or some such.
Yep, that's true. Was just making a few posts to let people know why it's a fundamentally flawed game and why they're wasting their time...
And the oscar for the most dramatic and drawn-out exit goes to...
On July 26 2013 23:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: @GreenGringo This issue you are bringing up is actually NOT a balance problem the problem started with you letting them kill your 8 tech addons..... If you are getting swarmed that hard in your main base you have already lost anyways.... By the time that zlots or zerglings could do that you would have atleast 1-2 production lines from rax and you shouldve rallied to defend and not lost that many if you did then you got the upper hand because they wasted ALOT of units to do it.... and for what something that you can just add on as you can or just push ftw at that point depending on the point in time....
You've misunderstood my post. I'm in complete agreement with you. It's the Terran apologists in this thread who have proposed winning games by bypassing the army and invading T's production.
"Apologists", what utter nonsense. That presumes that saying that the game is balanced (exactly as David Kim today said about tournament and ladder stats ) is somehow wrong, and this is the best thing, exactly in the same way defending rapists is bad (the term apologists is most commonly used in conjunction with rape these days). To equate providing concrete evidence for the fallacy of your statements with defending rape is beyond malignant. You're here to troll, or you're entirely delusional about the world.
You talk about trolling, yet you suggest that I'm equating people to rapists merely because I used the word "apologist"?
When did you come back? I thought you were done with SC2 because Supernova won a game. "Starcraft is dead to me" or some such.
Yep, that's true. Was just making a few posts to let people know why it's a fundamentally flawed game and why they're wasting their time...
On July 26 2013 23:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: @GreenGringo This issue you are bringing up is actually NOT a balance problem the problem started with you letting them kill your 8 tech addons..... If you are getting swarmed that hard in your main base you have already lost anyways.... By the time that zlots or zerglings could do that you would have atleast 1-2 production lines from rax and you shouldve rallied to defend and not lost that many if you did then you got the upper hand because they wasted ALOT of units to do it.... and for what something that you can just add on as you can or just push ftw at that point depending on the point in time....
You've misunderstood my post. I'm in complete agreement with you. It's the Terran apologists in this thread who have proposed winning games by bypassing the army and invading T's production.
"Apologists", what utter nonsense. That presumes that saying that the game is balanced (exactly as David Kim today said about tournament and ladder stats ) is somehow wrong, and this is the best thing, exactly in the same way defending rapists is bad (the term apologists is most commonly used in conjunction with rape these days). To equate providing concrete evidence for the fallacy of your statements with defending rape is beyond malignant. You're here to troll, or you're entirely delusional about the world.
You talk about trolling, yet you suggest that I'm equating people to rapists merely because I used the word "apologist"?
When did you come back? I thought you were done with SC2 because Supernova won a game. "Starcraft is dead to me" or some such.
Yep, that's true. Was just making a few posts to let people know why it's a fundamentally flawed game and why they're wasting their time...
Well how about this: you can go ahead and be done with Starcraft like you want so much. And if anyone comes into this thread and says "Gosh, you know I really just wonder what GreenGringo would say about the current state of Starcraft 2," we'll do our best to let them know
Your quitting to your own imperfections and weakness and lack of will power to play the game and accomplish something...... Not to the balance..... If you are GM / Pro level saying this it would be one thing but I HIGHLY doubt you are.....
On July 27 2013 06:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: Your quitting to your own imperfections and weakness and lack of will power to play the game and accomplish something...... Not to the balance..... If you are GM / Pro level saying this it would be one thing but I HIGHLY doubt you are.....
Don't bother. I mean for every beautiful and intellectually superior 2-base immortal push in the game, there's a 3-base SCV all-in. So why would he continue playing such an unintellectual game?
On July 27 2013 06:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: Your quitting to your own imperfections and weakness and lack of will power to play the game and accomplish something...... Not to the balance..... If you are GM / Pro level saying this it would be one thing but I HIGHLY doubt you are.....
Don't bother. I mean for every beautiful and intellectually superior 2-base immortal push in the game, there's a 3-base SCV all-in. So why would he continue playing such an unintellectual game?
Wait, all-ins are bad? When did this happen? I wasn't aware that there was some unwritten code that made doubling down and going for broke bad. So I am just supposted to macro until my opponent runs out of money, right?
On July 27 2013 06:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: Your quitting to your own imperfections and weakness and lack of will power to play the game and accomplish something...... Not to the balance..... If you are GM / Pro level saying this it would be one thing but I HIGHLY doubt you are.....
Don't bother. I mean for every beautiful and intellectually superior 2-base immortal push in the game, there's a 3-base SCV all-in. So why would he continue playing such an unintellectual game?
Wait, all-ins are bad? When did this happen? I wasn't aware that there was some unwritten code that made doubling down and going for broke bad. So I am just supposted to macro until my opponent runs out of money, right?
Yes! because!
You cant put pressure on your opponent, instead u have to go all-in or macro up Bad design brother
On July 25 2013 18:39 GreenGringo wrote: That first Rain vs Supernova game was fucking disgusting. All kinds of pro tricks from Rain, great storms again and again and almost no effective use of ghosts or splitting from Supernova.
And what happens? Supernova just busts his way through, mindlessly with MMM. He pulls his SCVs, but it doesn't matter if he loses them as long as he takes down a base. Take down a Terran base and they just fly over one of their 5 CCs.
I'm done with this bullshit. Starcraft 2 is now dead to me.
On July 25 2013 19:01 GreenGringo wrote: Good God...Rain's a million times better than Supernova. Look at that multi-layered bust in game 2, where he deliberately pushes with a zealot-templar sub-division of his force, keeps the immortals back to go after the production. Perfect timing, superb follow up with DTs. Compare that with Supernova's mindlessly attacking (almost A-moving) at a random time with MMM + workers.
The intellectual gulf between top Terran and top Protoss is laughably, deliciously hilarious.
I was referring to these posts by GreenGringo. I don't personally think there's anything particularly intellectually superior about a 2-base immortal push, nor do I have any particular problem with pulling SCVs on 3 bases.
On July 27 2013 06:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: Your quitting to your own imperfections and weakness and lack of will power to play the game and accomplish something...... Not to the balance..... If you are GM / Pro level saying this it would be one thing but I HIGHLY doubt you are.....
Don't bother. I mean for every beautiful and intellectually superior 2-base immortal push in the game, there's a 3-base SCV all-in. So why would he continue playing such an unintellectual game?
Wait, all-ins are bad? When did this happen? I wasn't aware that there was some unwritten code that made doubling down and going for broke bad. So I am just supposted to macro until my opponent runs out of money, right?
Yes! because!
You cant put pressure on your opponent, instead u have to go all-in or macro up Bad design brother
Fuck, I have been doing it wrong this whole time. So I wasn't putting pressure on the zerg when I move my army out, attack their third and then recall home, forcing them to build units instead of drones. Damn it. I'll stay in by base from now on.
On July 26 2013 16:10 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] Today I learned that queens have 850hp. You want to destroy zerg production? Kill the spawning pool and snipe the queens. Hell, just killing the queens wrecks production. Maybe terrans need to start using a medivac with 2 widow mines and drilling claws to instantly take out a queen. You wont even lose the widow mines when doing this.
EDIT: Killing the pool and the queens means 155 seconds until the next spawn larvae. FYI.
Good thing Zergs can't have more than 1 queen per hatchery. Oh wait.
Good thing Zergs often dont have more than 1 queen per hatchery except for the queens way out on the map spreading creep which are easy to kill when you force them to pull their army back to defend against your drops.
What I am really hinting towards though, is that things are often more difficult than they sound.
On July 26 2013 16:25 Big J wrote: *looks at HP of production buildings, looks at cost of production buildings, doublechecks same for SCVs, scratches his head about the new brilliant idea how to play zerg better*
Zergs have obviously been doing it wrong for years now. It took terrans to enlighten us to the idea that terran production is their weak point, even though tastosis remind us every time an army gets on top of production in the GSL/WCS.
It's like you are purposely avoiding the fact that Zerg have different drop timings than Terran...
And that 16 2/2 speedlings dropped inside the Terran base won't in any way wreck production, considering that Terrans only static, supplyless defense vs land units of range 7 costs 550 minerals 150 gas AND 150 seconds to build (PF)!!!
Whereas to protect production, Zerg need protect their hatcheries with spines and transfusing queens!
To produce 16 zerglings in one cycle, costs 300 minerals for another hatchery, hitting Z eight times, on and 150 m Queen, being on top of queen macro. Total "building" cost: 450m.
To produce 8 zealots (their dps > 16 marines) of 800m, costs 1200m for 8 gateways, 150m for Cybercore and 50m 50g for warp gate, and can instantly appear at any prism. Total "building" cost: 1250 minerals 50g
Whereas, Terran's 16 marines in one cycle costs costing 800 minerals, hitting 16 times, either 2400 minerals for 16 rax! or 1200 minerals for 8 rax and 400m 400g for 8 reactors. And being completely exposed as 16 raxes need space! Total building cost: 1600 min 400g or 2400 minerals
That's why Terran HAVE TO DROP TO PIN Z or P in the base, Terran have the costliest and slowest ground static defenses, AND the most exposed production facilities among the 3 races!
Edit: lucidity.
this make my head hurt. comparing 16 marines to 16 zerglings....lets compare 16 BC with 16 mutas next time. and you dont build 16 rax you build 8 with reactors and...you are so biased...wow. denying zerg drop sucks when much better player than you and me dont use it for 4 years at highest korean level...i dont even...
Lowley drops LiquidHero twice with just 16 lings each time and CLEANS OUT HERO'S MAIN OF ALL TECH AND PRODUCTION. Zergling weak? Come on... really...
This guy here...
1) ZvP is hugely different than ZvT 2) He dropped WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than 16 lings (~60 or so from what I counted... what horrible observing though holy crap) 3) He didnt defend at all as he was skytoss which lacks in gateways and speed (which is why ling runby's and lings in general are extremely strong, they abuse the immobility of the protoss... which is why drops are good against terrans that go mech) 4) He didnt recall to defend 5) HE STILL LOST DESPITE HAVING A BANK OF 5K AND CLEANING OUT THE MAIN
Honestly, you are the single most dishonest person in the history of ever to claim that he dropped with 16 lings and killed everything. Now lets see you do that vs a terran that rallies a wave of 15 marines, 2 medivacs, and 2 widow mines every 30 seconds.
EDIT: For those curious, drop happens 13:47 in. Observer doesnt catch even a glimpse at it until 14:28. You see the number of lings used at 13:00. There are a total of I think 10 zealots warped in when they finally see it. These are also 3-3 cracklings
Nice straw man argument, from Zerg can't drop, Zerg drops suck, to: 1) ZvP is different, 2) he dropped way more lings, (Eariler posters said DROPS NEVER WORK) 3) See Good Game Sense aka skill, earlier post 4) Because it was a well executed backstab, Lowely still had his ultra, ling, queen, infestor, corruptor main force ready to move in at any time Hero recalled. 5) Lowely didn't attempt to stutter-fungal snipe the VRs at any point, he also engaged when he had Revelation on his main army...
I have never said drops suck. Ever. I think you are trolling at this point and deserve to be reported. Also, you are falling for straw man, you are using the fallacy wrong. We are discussing TvZ and you pop in with a skytoss ling drop, misrepresent what actually happened in the game, and even misrepresent our arguments by telling us that we think lings are bad? Now you are telling us that we think drops are bad?
On July 26 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote: ... Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
So only specifically roach harass and OL drops to Terran are bad.
Then I guess, I took your quotation out of context and Zerg roach drops or roach harass are only BAD VS TERRAN. For that I'm sorry, please continue.
OL drops suck vs bio terran specifically. I said it works fantastic against mech terran. Thanks for trying to misrepresent what I said AGAIN.
On July 27 2013 06:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: Your quitting to your own imperfections and weakness and lack of will power to play the game and accomplish something...... Not to the balance..... If you are GM / Pro level saying this it would be one thing but I HIGHLY doubt you are.....
Don't bother. I mean for every beautiful and intellectually superior 2-base immortal push in the game, there's a 3-base SCV all-in. So why would he continue playing such an unintellectual game?
Wait, all-ins are bad? When did this happen? I wasn't aware that there was some unwritten code that made doubling down and going for broke bad. So I am just supposted to macro until my opponent runs out of money, right?
So, have you not been playing on NA for all this time or what? O_o
Take it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened.
They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss.
Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone
And Rhaegal's TvZ's VAST improvement was maybe, just maybe, because HoTS made TvZ vastly Terran favored? We've been discussing this point for the last 5 pages and someone actually shows real evidence and you are so quick to dismiss it.
Take it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened.
They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss.
Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone
And Rhaegal's TvZ's VAST improvement was maybe, just maybe, because HoTS made TvZ vastly Terran favored? We've been discussing this point for the last 5 pages and someone actually shows real evidence and you are so quick to dismiss it.
Could it be because that isn't evidence of anything?
Take it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened.
They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss.
Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone
And Rhaegal's TvZ's VAST improvement was maybe, just maybe, because HoTS made TvZ vastly Terran favored? We've been discussing this point for the last 5 pages and someone actually shows real evidence and you are so quick to dismiss it.
Are you for real? The "real evidence" for TvZ being "vastly Terran favored" is 1 (as in one) non-pro player posting a screenshot with a small sample size and a TvZ win ratio of 63% while he has a ZvT win ratio in the same screenshot of 68%.
Now those 68% are real evidence for - TvZ being even "vastly-ier Zerg favored"? - anecdotae like this being utterly meaningless?
Take it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened.
They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss.
Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone
And Rhaegal's TvZ's VAST improvement was maybe, just maybe, because HoTS made TvZ vastly Terran favored? We've been discussing this point for the last 5 pages and someone actually shows real evidence and you are so quick to dismiss it.
Are you for real? The "real evidence" for TvZ being "vastly Terran favored" is 1 (as in one) non-pro player posting a screenshot with a small sample size and a TvZ win ratio of 63% while he has a ZvT win ratio in the same screenshot of 68%.
Now those 68% are real evidence for - TvZ being even "vastly-ier Zerg favored"? - anecdotae like this being utterly meaningless?
Take it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened.
They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss.
Because Zerg are learning in the school of hard knocks that to trade equally with 4M with muta/ling/ blings, a new skill called, "splits" is required.
No different than when Zerg was losing their muta flocks left and right to "sudden" Thors until they learnt to magic box.
muahahahahahahahahaha.
if there was a contest of making up random stuff about starcraft history, you'd take first place for sure.
Oh? So under what conditions did Zerg need unit splitting or risk losing their entire army vs Terran Marine/marauder/medivac play in BW and WoL?
You can't remember when TL posters in WoL were over the moon about this new tactic called magic boxing?
HAHAHHAHAHHAHA. So hard to argue with someone with memory of an infant.
Take it for what you will, but I'm still trying to figure out why this happened.
They nerfed the infestor to the point where the game made sense and gave the protoss better scouting and stability in the early game. Your win records look fine and TvZ is your best match up. You break even vs protoss.
Plansix, we all know you're a Terran player with T bias and not a Protoss player, why do you keep that Protoss icon on there? You're not fooling anyone
And Rhaegal's TvZ's VAST improvement was maybe, just maybe, because HoTS made TvZ vastly Terran favored? We've been discussing this point for the last 5 pages and someone actually shows real evidence and you are so quick to dismiss it.
Um.....I am not sure if you are being sarcastic. I have always played Protoss poorly. I never played terran on any level. I am unimpressed by your claims that TvZ is terran favored, unless you mean that they can do damage in the first 10 minutes and can win games without having to all in before BL-infestor, like in WoL. If that is your standard for "terran favored", then I guess it is true.
The current Terran macro play reminds me a bit of the Immortal-Sentry all in in PvZ. Not in that it's an all in, but in that it's a strategy that, when executed properly, is very hard to stop, and Zerg players don't know how to react to it yet. After several months, Zerg players figured out how to stop Parting's push, and it was deemed not imbalanced. I'd be willing to bet that eventually happens to the 65 scv rally push, as well.
EPT
