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On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules.
Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights.
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On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights.
Medics back in BW needed to stand to heal. What's your point? You want your dropships to just cost 100/100, heal, and have super speed button, and now you want them to heal while moving too? Lol. Why don't you ask for your marines to be perma-stealthed while you're at it?
Yes, Mutas can focus on Medivacs so I'm sorry, Terran does lose one or two dropships here and there, but Medivacs are almost always protected / supported by marines, which means you heavily risk your 900/900+ investment mutas just to kill 2 or 3 (200/200 or 300/300) medivacs.
Terrans also lose all their mines each fight they lose? Heard of unburrow? Overseer might also not be present / been killed. Either way, it's a fight they lose. I really hope a race has the potential to lose 75 mineral 25 gas unit each time they lose a fight. Since, god knows, Zergs lose infestors, banelings which cost a crapton more gas. (Protoss loses HTs, Sentries)
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On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights.
His point was that terran loses hardly any gas while zerg loses alot of gas
Even i got it and instead of being sarcastic and defensive, come with something discussable
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On July 26 2013 07:29 GhostOwl wrote:
Medics back in BW needed to stand to heal. What's your point? You want your dropships to just cost 100/100, heal, and have super speed button, and now you want them to heal while moving too? Lol. Why don't you ask for your marines to be perma-stealthed while you're at it?
You're absolutely hilarious, I remind you that Medivacs are vulnerable to Mutalisks while healing and you somehow manage to turn this reminder into a buff request.
Yes, Mutas can focus on Medivacs so I'm sorry, Terran does lose one or two dropships here and there, but Medivacs are almost always protected / supported by marines, which means you heavily risk your 900/900+ investment mutas just to kill 2 or 3 (200/200 or 300/300) medivacs.
Terrans also lose all their mines each fight they lose? Heard of unburrow? Overseer might also not be present / been killed. Either way, it's a fight they lose. I really hope a race has the potential to lose 75 mineral 25 gas unit each time they lose a fight. Since, god knows, Zergs lose infestors, banelings which cost a crapton more gas. (Protoss loses HTs, Sentries)
Have you any idea what a 4M vs lings/banes/mutas engagement looks like? As if your 2.81 ms Mine was going anywhere against 4.7 or 6.11 ms Speedlings if you unburrow it. Just stop theorycrafting.
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On July 26 2013 07:34 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights. His point was that terran loses hardly any gas while zerg loses alot of gas Even i got it and instead of being sarcastic and defensive, come with something discussable
Terran has always been more mineral heavy, it was true in 2010, it is still true today. Protoss and Zerg almost always have more gas in their units.
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Oh please, First played horribly against that. He spotted that with not one but TWO observers and still had almost nothing at home to defend, because he was counting on Bomber to do what most Terrans do (move to drop, see units there, load up and leave with chip damage on the medivac).
Not that I disagree, by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm pretty sure that the mistakes First made in his games against Bomber are mistakes that pretty much any ladder player makes every single game, and apparently these types of mistakes are common enough that Protoss players aren't really annihilating Terran every game. With that in mind, where are the actual effects of this massive imbalance?
I'm of the mind that TvP is a bit Protoss favoured (and will probably become more Protoss favoured) but I don't really think it's too awful in terms of balance so much as it is one-dimensional for the Terran.
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On July 26 2013 07:55 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +Oh please, First played horribly against that. He spotted that with not one but TWO observers and still had almost nothing at home to defend, because he was counting on Bomber to do what most Terrans do (move to drop, see units there, load up and leave with chip damage on the medivac). Not that I disagree, by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm pretty sure that the mistakes First made in his games against Bomber are mistakes that pretty much any ladder player makes every single game, and apparently these types of mistakes are common enough that Protoss players aren't really annihilating Terran every game. With that in mind, where are the actual effects of this massive imbalance? I'm of the mind that TvP is a bit Protoss favoured (and will probably become more Protoss favoured) but I don't really think it's too awful in terms of balance so much as it is one-dimensional for the Terran.
If you're talking about the Newkirk Precinct game, First was simply too behind from the opening (lost 5 Probes to Reapers + expand delayed until 6'30, which is huge), plus his robo was poorly placed (he built it on the side vulnerable to drops + Marines could shoot it from outside the Nexus' range), and as such he couldn't get his Colossus out to defend the 16 Marines. Scouting the dual drop in advance doesn't matter if you're too behind to defend it anyway, which was the case here.
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On July 26 2013 07:55 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +Oh please, First played horribly against that. He spotted that with not one but TWO observers and still had almost nothing at home to defend, because he was counting on Bomber to do what most Terrans do (move to drop, see units there, load up and leave with chip damage on the medivac). Not that I disagree, by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm pretty sure that the mistakes First made in his games against Bomber are mistakes that pretty much any ladder player makes every single game, and apparently these types of mistakes are common enough that Protoss players aren't really annihilating Terran every game. With that in mind, where are the actual effects of this massive imbalance? I'm of the mind that TvP is a bit Protoss favoured (and will probably become more Protoss favoured) but I don't really think it's too awful in terms of balance so much as it is one-dimensional for the Terran.
Not quite sure why you erased my name on that quote. Yeah, average ladder players probably make those mistakes, too, but average Terrans also don't know to drill in that situation. Just slightly different unit composition or even just different positioning from First, and Bomber has to just pick up and leave and the game goes on. Or if Bomber positions his drop behind the main mineral line, like most Terrans probably would, First can hold it off easily. But Bomber dropped on the top side and knew he had time to get the marines out and stim+kite.
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On July 26 2013 06:29 SCguineapig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:On July 26 2013 00:43 Ghanburighan wrote:
As a side note, it's amusing that three regulars of this thread: per se, LSN and Emzeeshady were just temp banned for balance whining. That's an interesting lesson, you can speak imba in here, but some of those views are just not acceptable on the rest of TL. It's one thing to disagree with a view. It's totally another when you try to involve mods / thread closed just because you dont want to hear the "Terran is overpowered currently" discussions rampant in a BALANCE DISCUSSION thread. That's just messed up. Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. discussing balance and boldly stating that terran is OP are 2 different things. nexus cannon as well as marine mine medivac and SH viper are to strong. so they all 3 need slight nerfs. the problem is though if you nerf it for 1 matchup it might get worse in the other. for instance if you nerf stim vs zerg then tvp could become dominated by P players. if you nerf mines they might become the shittiest unit in the game. it's the reason why blizzard isn't taking to much action right now. they have to think carefully of what they do. and i rather have a little bit off win percentage for one side then have a patch in 1 week which causes the nerfed race to lose 80% of its games.
Why should Stim be nerfed if Blizzard is fixing stuff by "buffing only" (because people get less mad about that)?
There is nothing wrong with Stim ... unless there is something wrong with Banelings and Roaches and Forcefield and so on. It is just a "problem" of critical numbers of units, because it only gets problematic IF YOU HAVE A LOT OF UNITS and maybe those critical numbers are the problem and not the unit ability. Fewer bio concentrated in an area results is less "clump dps" after all. I have been saying that for months now and usually get slapped for it by people who ignore the math of small Marine units being able to stack more tightly compared to bigger units like Roaches and Stalkers ...
People really need to learn to look at the state of the game from unusual angles and without their own prejudices and fixed judgements.
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On July 26 2013 10:05 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 07:50 Hypemeup wrote:On July 26 2013 07:34 Foxxan wrote:On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights. His point was that terran loses hardly any gas while zerg loses alot of gas Even i got it and instead of being sarcastic and defensive, come with something discussable Terran has always been more mineral heavy, it was true in 2010, it is still true today. Protoss and Zerg almost always have more gas in their units. It's simply a matter of restricting your own gas income, and/or customize your composition in accordance with your income. There's really no reason to float gas. Top terrans like innovation does not often float gas in the late game, despite going for a traditional so-called "mineral heavy" composition. This applies to all races. The difference being that Protoss and Zerg would actually benefit from even more gas than their income mineral to gas ratio would allow. So that's another way of looking at it, Terran is the only race who would not be rewarded by additional gas.
The problem is that gas is the limiting factor for z and p and it is needed to compete with terran. Terrans are ok with 3-4 geysers but zerg can not stand against terran with only 3-4 geysers. When t starts it´s parade push zerg has to throw gas to it to survive, meanwhile terran uses mostly minerals. This prevents z from teching and ultimately 3-3 is when the deathanimation for zerg usually comes to an end. Without gas zerg is screwed as kings vs 4m is pretty much useless. if you don´t all-in you really have play sooo much better than your opponent to win the game and make zero mistakes.
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On July 26 2013 11:00 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 10:05 monkybone wrote:On July 26 2013 07:50 Hypemeup wrote:On July 26 2013 07:34 Foxxan wrote:On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights. His point was that terran loses hardly any gas while zerg loses alot of gas Even i got it and instead of being sarcastic and defensive, come with something discussable Terran has always been more mineral heavy, it was true in 2010, it is still true today. Protoss and Zerg almost always have more gas in their units. It's simply a matter of restricting your own gas income, and/or customize your composition in accordance with your income. There's really no reason to float gas. Top terrans like innovation does not often float gas in the late game, despite going for a traditional so-called "mineral heavy" composition. This applies to all races. The difference being that Protoss and Zerg would actually benefit from even more gas than their income mineral to gas ratio would allow. So that's another way of looking at it, Terran is the only race who would not be rewarded by additional gas. The problem is that gas is the limiting factor for z and p and it is needed to compete with terran. Terrans are ok with 3-4 geysers but zerg can not stand against terran with only 3-4 geysers. When t starts it´s parade push zerg has to throw gas to it to survive, meanwhile terran uses mostly minerals. This prevents z from teching and ultimately 3-3 is when the deathanimation for zerg usually comes to an end. Without gas zerg is screwed as kings vs 4m is pretty much useless. if you don´t all-in you really have play sooo much better than your opponent to win the game and make zero mistakes.
To become a better player, you have to accept the tools available to you and maximize their efficiency.
For example, burrow+roach harass is incredibly annoying to a Terran above 2 bases, because we'd have to expend scans to detect roaches that can be ANYWHERE. Terrans have been doing this type of harass since HotS beta when reapers got combat drugs.
Despite the APM of Zergs, We rarely see tactics beyond kiting and splits. Multi prong harass or backstab (attack while being attacked) is surprisingly rare even among pros.
Edit: unit compositions too, I mean it took MONTHS before Zerg pros stopped running 3K minerals worth of lings into hellbat/marauder compositions! And calling Terran OP the whole time too!
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On July 26 2013 12:31 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 11:00 RaFox17 wrote:On July 26 2013 10:05 monkybone wrote:On July 26 2013 07:50 Hypemeup wrote:On July 26 2013 07:34 Foxxan wrote:On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights. His point was that terran loses hardly any gas while zerg loses alot of gas Even i got it and instead of being sarcastic and defensive, come with something discussable Terran has always been more mineral heavy, it was true in 2010, it is still true today. Protoss and Zerg almost always have more gas in their units. It's simply a matter of restricting your own gas income, and/or customize your composition in accordance with your income. There's really no reason to float gas. Top terrans like innovation does not often float gas in the late game, despite going for a traditional so-called "mineral heavy" composition. This applies to all races. The difference being that Protoss and Zerg would actually benefit from even more gas than their income mineral to gas ratio would allow. So that's another way of looking at it, Terran is the only race who would not be rewarded by additional gas. The problem is that gas is the limiting factor for z and p and it is needed to compete with terran. Terrans are ok with 3-4 geysers but zerg can not stand against terran with only 3-4 geysers. When t starts it´s parade push zerg has to throw gas to it to survive, meanwhile terran uses mostly minerals. This prevents z from teching and ultimately 3-3 is when the deathanimation for zerg usually comes to an end. Without gas zerg is screwed as kings vs 4m is pretty much useless. if you don´t all-in you really have play sooo much better than your opponent to win the game and make zero mistakes. To become a better player, you have to accept the tools available to you and maximize their efficiency. For example, burrow+roach harass is incredibly annoying to a Terran above 2 bases, because we'd have to expend scans to detect roaches that can be ANYWHERE. Terrans have been doing this type of harass since HotS beta when reapers got combat drugs. Despite the APM of Zergs, We rarely see tactics beyond kiting and splits. Multi prong harass or backstab (attack while being attacked) is surprisingly rare even among pros.
The 4th expansion is usually plantary fortress
And the other three bases are usually semi tight to each other
And its not like we have seen burrowed roaches before
I know it is annoying tho but please stop write to zerg players like they are morons because they are not, there is a reason u dont see this regularly
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On July 26 2013 13:05 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 12:31 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 26 2013 11:00 RaFox17 wrote:On July 26 2013 10:05 monkybone wrote:On July 26 2013 07:50 Hypemeup wrote:On July 26 2013 07:34 Foxxan wrote:On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights. His point was that terran loses hardly any gas while zerg loses alot of gas Even i got it and instead of being sarcastic and defensive, come with something discussable Terran has always been more mineral heavy, it was true in 2010, it is still true today. Protoss and Zerg almost always have more gas in their units. It's simply a matter of restricting your own gas income, and/or customize your composition in accordance with your income. There's really no reason to float gas. Top terrans like innovation does not often float gas in the late game, despite going for a traditional so-called "mineral heavy" composition. This applies to all races. The difference being that Protoss and Zerg would actually benefit from even more gas than their income mineral to gas ratio would allow. So that's another way of looking at it, Terran is the only race who would not be rewarded by additional gas. The problem is that gas is the limiting factor for z and p and it is needed to compete with terran. Terrans are ok with 3-4 geysers but zerg can not stand against terran with only 3-4 geysers. When t starts it´s parade push zerg has to throw gas to it to survive, meanwhile terran uses mostly minerals. This prevents z from teching and ultimately 3-3 is when the deathanimation for zerg usually comes to an end. Without gas zerg is screwed as kings vs 4m is pretty much useless. if you don´t all-in you really have play sooo much better than your opponent to win the game and make zero mistakes. To become a better player, you have to accept the tools available to you and maximize their efficiency. For example, burrow+roach harass is incredibly annoying to a Terran above 2 bases, because we'd have to expend scans to detect roaches that can be ANYWHERE. Terrans have been doing this type of harass since HotS beta when reapers got combat drugs. Despite the APM of Zergs, We rarely see tactics beyond kiting and splits. Multi prong harass or backstab (attack while being attacked) is surprisingly rare even among pros. The 4th expansion is usually plantary fortress And the other three bases are usually semi tight to each other And its not like we have seen burrowed roaches before I know it is annoying tho but please stop write to zerg players like they are morons because they are not, there is a reason u dont see this regularly
And Zerg would be sitting pretty with their 5th by that time... More than enough to have 6 SH to siege the fourth while maintaining a mobile ling/muta force to pin the T or deal with pushes to your own fronts.
I cited an example.
You are not morons, I never said you were, stop putting words in other people's mouths. But if a Terran posted a replay of him losing in his 3 base all-in of stimmed mass marauder/medivac a-moving into an immortal/zealot/sentry defense in the Terran Help Me Thread, he'd be told to not go so marauder heavy, add in some ghosts and do some mutli-prong so the Protoss won't have enough gas to get that many immortals.
Whereas for Zerg, the advice here is... because Terran OP. Maybe I'm unfair for painting the entire Z community, but given the responses here ... Whereas the HotS Zerg Help thread is showing definite improvement other than cries of IMBA and nerfs.
Edit: It's like WoL ALL OVER AGAIN...
LINK: David Kim Interview 26th Jul'13
David Kim said:
David Kim: Based on the data in ladder, the winrate between Zerg and Terran are very close. The medivac boost is forto give Terran more harassment options. And it produces more entertaining games to some degree.
We don't want to nerf the widow mine and medivac. Rather, it is better to change the Zerg, for example, we can buff some abilities of Zerg.
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On July 26 2013 11:00 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 10:05 monkybone wrote:On July 26 2013 07:50 Hypemeup wrote:On July 26 2013 07:34 Foxxan wrote:On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights. His point was that terran loses hardly any gas while zerg loses alot of gas Even i got it and instead of being sarcastic and defensive, come with something discussable Terran has always been more mineral heavy, it was true in 2010, it is still true today. Protoss and Zerg almost always have more gas in their units. It's simply a matter of restricting your own gas income, and/or customize your composition in accordance with your income. There's really no reason to float gas. Top terrans like innovation does not often float gas in the late game, despite going for a traditional so-called "mineral heavy" composition. This applies to all races. The difference being that Protoss and Zerg would actually benefit from even more gas than their income mineral to gas ratio would allow. So that's another way of looking at it, Terran is the only race who would not be rewarded by additional gas. The problem is that gas is the limiting factor for z and p and it is needed to compete with terran. Terrans are ok with 3-4 geysers but zerg can not stand against terran with only 3-4 geysers. When t starts it´s parade push zerg has to throw gas to it to survive, meanwhile terran uses mostly minerals. This prevents z from teching and ultimately 3-3 is when the deathanimation for zerg usually comes to an end. Without gas zerg is screwed as kings vs 4m is pretty much useless. if you don´t all-in you really have play sooo much better than your opponent to win the game and make zero mistakes.
Too many players are following a dogmatic rules. One of them is "I ... must ... kill ... enemy army ... to win." which is totally stupid. You need to analyze the weak spot of the enemy race and then hit them where it hurts. For Zerg it isnt that much the Drones but rather the Queens and hatcheries which pose a limitation for example, because without Queens they have far less larvae to actually use to reproduce units. For Protoss there are certain key tech buildings which they usually only build once ... and the same is true for Zerg as well.
So where does it hurt really hard for Terrans? The easy and very obvious answer is THE PRODUCTION buildings and the addons in particular. So if you want to harrass your Terran opponent DONT attack his expansions, because nothing is easier than saturating one with MULEs (and many people complain about Terrans not needing that much gas). It takes one SCV a pretty long time to build a production building, but you also need to add an addon and that takes yet more time. If you kill those addons his production will be crippled for a short time and thats the time to strike at his army ... he wont be able to reproduce as much stuff as he wants and would also be more limited in his choices.
To attack a Terran you need to use ALL tools at your disposal and that includes burrow (to force the Terran to expend more scans), good creep spread (yet more scans and scouting for you), burrowed movement and Overlord drop upgrades. All of these nifty and tricksy movement upgrades will make your units much more long lasting, because the opponent will not have an easy time to get rid of them. One or two Overlords filled with Roaches or even Hydras do NOT have the same killing power as eight Marauders, but if you are spreading them out and burrowing you can keep a significant part of the opposing army AND the opposing player busy.in his own base. This creates an opportunity to strike at the front and thats exactly what Terrans are doing with multiple drops at different places ... whose main job isnt really to kill stuff (they will do it, but only as an added bonus) but rather to distract the enemy. You just need to learn to do the same.
It is really annoying that none of the Zerg progamers seem to understand this achilles heel of Terrans and they all try to follow the mantra of "kill economy to win" while ignoring the fact that the production is the limiting factor for the Terran. Just try it out and dont skimp on those important upgrades ...
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On July 26 2013 14:05 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 11:00 RaFox17 wrote:On July 26 2013 10:05 monkybone wrote:On July 26 2013 07:50 Hypemeup wrote:On July 26 2013 07:34 Foxxan wrote:On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights. His point was that terran loses hardly any gas while zerg loses alot of gas Even i got it and instead of being sarcastic and defensive, come with something discussable Terran has always been more mineral heavy, it was true in 2010, it is still true today. Protoss and Zerg almost always have more gas in their units. It's simply a matter of restricting your own gas income, and/or customize your composition in accordance with your income. There's really no reason to float gas. Top terrans like innovation does not often float gas in the late game, despite going for a traditional so-called "mineral heavy" composition. This applies to all races. The difference being that Protoss and Zerg would actually benefit from even more gas than their income mineral to gas ratio would allow. So that's another way of looking at it, Terran is the only race who would not be rewarded by additional gas. The problem is that gas is the limiting factor for z and p and it is needed to compete with terran. Terrans are ok with 3-4 geysers but zerg can not stand against terran with only 3-4 geysers. When t starts it´s parade push zerg has to throw gas to it to survive, meanwhile terran uses mostly minerals. This prevents z from teching and ultimately 3-3 is when the deathanimation for zerg usually comes to an end. Without gas zerg is screwed as kings vs 4m is pretty much useless. if you don´t all-in you really have play sooo much better than your opponent to win the game and make zero mistakes. Too many players are following a dogmatic rules. One of them is "I ... must ... kill ... enemy army ... to win." which is totally stupid. You need to analyze the weak spot of the enemy race and then hit them where it hurts. For Zerg it isnt that much the Drones but rather the Queens and hatcheries which pose a limitation for example, because without Queens they have far less larvae to actually use to reproduce units. For Protoss there are certain key tech buildings which they usually only build once ... and the same is true for Zerg as well. So where does it hurt really hard for Terrans? The easy and very obvious answer is THE PRODUCTION buildings and the addons in particular. So if you want to harrass your Terran opponent DONT attack his expansions, because nothing is easier than saturating one with MULEs (and many people complain about Terrans not needing that much gas). It takes one SCV a pretty long time to build a production building, but you also need to add an addon and that takes yet more time. If you kill those addons his production will be crippled for a short time and thats the time to strike at his army ... he wont be able to reproduce as much stuff as he wants and would also be more limited in his choices. To attack a Terran you need to use ALL tools at your disposal and that includes burrow (to force the Terran to expend more scans), good creep spread (yet more scans and scouting for you), burrowed movement and Overlord drop upgrades. All of these nifty and tricksy movement upgrades will make your units much more long lasting, because the opponent will not have an easy time to get rid of them. One or two Overlords filled with Roaches or even Hydras do NOT have the same killing power as eight Marauders, but if you are spreading them out and burrowing you can keep a significant part of the opposing army AND the opposing player busy.in his own base. This creates an opportunity to strike at the front and thats exactly what Terrans are doing with multiple drops at different places ... whose main job isnt really to kill stuff (they will do it, but only as an added bonus) but rather to distract the enemy. You just need to learn to do the same. It is really annoying that none of the Zerg progamers seem to understand this achilles heel of Terrans and they all try to follow the mantra of "kill economy to win" while ignoring the fact that the production is the limiting factor for the Terran. Just try it out and dont skimp on those important upgrades ...
I think the main problem is getting to the production buildings because they're pretty well-defended throughout the game. Plus, bio is pretty mobile and even a small group of it is sufficient to hold off most harassment.
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On July 26 2013 14:41 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 14:05 Rabiator wrote:On July 26 2013 11:00 RaFox17 wrote:On July 26 2013 10:05 monkybone wrote:On July 26 2013 07:50 Hypemeup wrote:On July 26 2013 07:34 Foxxan wrote:On July 26 2013 07:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 05:09 GhostOwl wrote:
Terran Bio/Medivac/ WM combo is currently too strong, and it's killing TvZ right now, whether you want to admit it or not. Equal trade engagements are a lot worse for Zerg, who constantly loses gas while Terran loses marines only (Thanks to Turbo button on medivacs) and can replenish marines easily with Mules. Yeah, Medivacs don't need to stand still to heal and, through some dark magic, mutas are never allowed to shift focus them. Terrans also lose all their Mines each fight they lose, but eh, I guess you're being coherent here since in your altered version of the reality Terrans always win fights. His point was that terran loses hardly any gas while zerg loses alot of gas Even i got it and instead of being sarcastic and defensive, come with something discussable Terran has always been more mineral heavy, it was true in 2010, it is still true today. Protoss and Zerg almost always have more gas in their units. It's simply a matter of restricting your own gas income, and/or customize your composition in accordance with your income. There's really no reason to float gas. Top terrans like innovation does not often float gas in the late game, despite going for a traditional so-called "mineral heavy" composition. This applies to all races. The difference being that Protoss and Zerg would actually benefit from even more gas than their income mineral to gas ratio would allow. So that's another way of looking at it, Terran is the only race who would not be rewarded by additional gas. The problem is that gas is the limiting factor for z and p and it is needed to compete with terran. Terrans are ok with 3-4 geysers but zerg can not stand against terran with only 3-4 geysers. When t starts it´s parade push zerg has to throw gas to it to survive, meanwhile terran uses mostly minerals. This prevents z from teching and ultimately 3-3 is when the deathanimation for zerg usually comes to an end. Without gas zerg is screwed as kings vs 4m is pretty much useless. if you don´t all-in you really have play sooo much better than your opponent to win the game and make zero mistakes. Too many players are following a dogmatic rules. One of them is "I ... must ... kill ... enemy army ... to win." which is totally stupid. You need to analyze the weak spot of the enemy race and then hit them where it hurts. For Zerg it isnt that much the Drones but rather the Queens and hatcheries which pose a limitation for example, because without Queens they have far less larvae to actually use to reproduce units. For Protoss there are certain key tech buildings which they usually only build once ... and the same is true for Zerg as well. So where does it hurt really hard for Terrans? The easy and very obvious answer is THE PRODUCTION buildings and the addons in particular. So if you want to harrass your Terran opponent DONT attack his expansions, because nothing is easier than saturating one with MULEs (and many people complain about Terrans not needing that much gas). It takes one SCV a pretty long time to build a production building, but you also need to add an addon and that takes yet more time. If you kill those addons his production will be crippled for a short time and thats the time to strike at his army ... he wont be able to reproduce as much stuff as he wants and would also be more limited in his choices. To attack a Terran you need to use ALL tools at your disposal and that includes burrow (to force the Terran to expend more scans), good creep spread (yet more scans and scouting for you), burrowed movement and Overlord drop upgrades. All of these nifty and tricksy movement upgrades will make your units much more long lasting, because the opponent will not have an easy time to get rid of them. One or two Overlords filled with Roaches or even Hydras do NOT have the same killing power as eight Marauders, but if you are spreading them out and burrowing you can keep a significant part of the opposing army AND the opposing player busy.in his own base. This creates an opportunity to strike at the front and thats exactly what Terrans are doing with multiple drops at different places ... whose main job isnt really to kill stuff (they will do it, but only as an added bonus) but rather to distract the enemy. You just need to learn to do the same. It is really annoying that none of the Zerg progamers seem to understand this achilles heel of Terrans and they all try to follow the mantra of "kill economy to win" while ignoring the fact that the production is the limiting factor for the Terran. Just try it out and dont skimp on those important upgrades ... I think the main problem is getting to the production buildings because they're pretty well-defended throughout the game. Plus, bio is pretty mobile and even a small group of it is sufficient to hold off most harassment.
Thats why you do it via Overlord drops and sneaky burrowed Roaches ...
- if the Terran builds lots of turrets you "win" because he spent a lot of resources on that
- tf the Terran builds lots of Vikings you "win" because they are pretty much useless against all the ground stuff AND he doesnt build Medivacs instead
The key is to NOT try and break that wall with your head but instead use that head to think your way through it. Oh and you need to start ASAP with harrassing the production .... which is the same as killing a hatchery for the Zerg.
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Burrow roach harass doesnt work vs t because:
1) Roaches are supply heavy
2) Roaches are ranged, so will be unupgraded, despite investing into burrow and movement
3) Roaches die insanely quickly to scans/bio
4) Terran usually has bio near his base that enable him to react quickly to burrow roach shenanigans
5) Due to #4, all he has to do is drop a turret near his rally point to completely shut it down
6) Mutalisks are far more effective, which is why zerg uses them.
7) Due to 6, terrans are always fine dropping turrets. Which means they may not have to drop scans if you are using mutas. And if you arent using mutas, have fun with drop control (moreso when you try to get your 4th base up)
I mean honestly, a terran drops 1 scan to kill 5-10 roaches and loses nothing else? I would take that trade any day. Or I could possibly just attack since you have 20 supply in weak roaches sitting in my base.
Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
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On July 26 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Burrow roach harass doesnt work vs t because:
1) Roaches are supply heavy
2) Roaches are ranged, so will be unupgraded, despite investing into burrow and movement
3) Roaches die insanely quickly to scans/bio
4) Terran usually has bio near his base that enable him to react quickly to burrow roach shenanigans
5) Due to #4, all he has to do is drop a turret near his rally point to completely shut it down
6) Mutalisks are far more effective, which is why zerg uses them.
7) Due to 6, terrans are always fine dropping turrets. Which means they may not have to drop scans if you are using mutas. And if you arent using mutas, have fun with drop control (moreso when you try to get your 4th base up)
I mean honestly, a terran drops 1 scan to kill 5-10 roaches and loses nothing else? I would take that trade any day. Or I could possibly just attack since you have 20 supply in weak roaches sitting in my base.
Honestly, to you people saying zerg doesnt harass... do you even watch pro games? If a zerg is ever not harassing, it is because the terran beat him to the punch and he is forced to use his harass units to defend the absurd drop harass that terran possesses or because there is a giant army knocking at the front door.
EDIT: In regards to roach OL drops. It has been tried and I think historically it gets shut down. Roaches suck vs bio, plain and simple. Roach drops worked well when terran was doing mech but aside from that it is horrible.
Thank you for your corrections of my suggestions, but the main point I was trying to make is that Zerg should not try to take out the Terran economy - especially in the late game - because it is far too easy for Terrans to "refill" that with MULEs and floating Orbitals and the generally reduced need for gas.
Hit the weak spot and not the tough spot!
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Where does the idea come from that it is good to have a mineral heavy composition? It has the same issue as a gas heavy composition (granted a bit less): You need to expand faster since you cannot optimally mine your bases. Also they mine out faster so that also forces you to expand faster.
Having a good gas-mineral ratio for your army is better than having a very mineral heavy composition. Okay if you have to choose between very mineral and very gas heavy, sure very mineral heavy is superior (purely from economic pespective). But balanced is still superior.
While I really think Bomber deserved to win, it would make for alot less complaining if he would have lost. Then it would have been two terrans, two protoss. Of course there is no statistics significance to 4 players, and if you look at the best 32 players worldwide zerg is still very well represented, but that top 4 will get more attention.
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EPT
