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On April 19 2013 07:04 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:51 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote:On April 18 2013 20:04 Big J wrote:On April 18 2013 19:56 Thor.Rush wrote:
In TvP, Terran is strongest in the midgame and always has been (except maybe when toss goes for a 2/2 2base timing). It will be extremely rare to see a pro Terran who wants to go lategame vs Protoss in every game. as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else? Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Read the fucking thread. On April 19 2013 06:11 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 05:48 Dudasc wrote:
this game is so "well" balanced that no zerg made it through the WCS qualifiers. Looks like all the accomplished zergs (targa, xlord, etc) lost to "big names" like Siw and Bunny
IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously? Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? Why are you feeding me some BS about Zergs. This is about Protoss not doing anything. Way to cuss and then attempt a red herring. You're a moron. I think its pretty obvious your ability to argue is pretty weak. You keep referencing Zerg in a discussion about Protoss.
Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there.
Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs.
You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame.
Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you?
So, Terrans are advancing and it's proof that Protoss can't advance because of Terrans. Whereas Zergs advancing is .. ? Nothing? I guess all Zergs just forfeit when they are matched against a Protoss.
But better yet, what happens when a good Protoss gets taken down by a good Zerg? Then all protoss representation goes into shit without Terrans lifting a finger.
To blame it all on Terrans, bravo. I mean, look at the last GSL games. Getting taken out with SCV all-in when Protoss has access to forcefields and collosi. Those were some bad plays. And yet that gets no mention. Naw, you're right. Definite proof that Terran is OP.
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On April 19 2013 07:25 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:04 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:51 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote:On April 18 2013 20:04 Big J wrote:On April 18 2013 19:56 Thor.Rush wrote:
In TvP, Terran is strongest in the midgame and always has been (except maybe when toss goes for a 2/2 2base timing). It will be extremely rare to see a pro Terran who wants to go lategame vs Protoss in every game. as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else? Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Read the fucking thread. On April 19 2013 06:11 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 05:48 Dudasc wrote:
this game is so "well" balanced that no zerg made it through the WCS qualifiers. Looks like all the accomplished zergs (targa, xlord, etc) lost to "big names" like Siw and Bunny
IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously? Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? Why are you feeding me some BS about Zergs. This is about Protoss not doing anything. Way to cuss and then attempt a red herring. You're a moron. I think its pretty obvious your ability to argue is pretty weak. You keep referencing Zerg in a discussion about Protoss. Show nested quote +Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Show nested quote +
Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs.
Show nested quote +You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. So, Terrans are advancing and it's proof that Protoss can't advance because of Terrans. Whereas Zergs advancing is .. ? Nothing? I guess all Zergs just forfeit when they are matched against a Protoss. But better yet, what happens when a good Protoss gets taken down by a good Zerg? Then all protoss representation goes into shit without Terrans lifting a finger. To blame it all on Terrans, bravo. I mean, look at the last GSL games. Getting taken out with SCV all-in when Protoss has access to forcefields and collosi. Those were some bad plays. And yet that gets no mention. Naw, you're right. Definite proof that Terran is OP.
RorO didn't play against any Protoss when he advanced. soO lost 2-0 to sOs in his only ZvP when he advanced. KangHo didn't have a Protoss in his group. Shine 2-0ed Squirtle in his only ZvP, Symbol didn't play a P. Soulkey didn't have a Protoss in his group. So actually, Zerg hasn't been responsible for hardly any of the Protoss defeats.
And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time.
The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy.
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On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote:On April 18 2013 20:04 Big J wrote:On April 18 2013 19:56 Thor.Rush wrote:
In TvP, Terran is strongest in the midgame and always has been (except maybe when toss goes for a 2/2 2base timing). It will be extremely rare to see a pro Terran who wants to go lategame vs Protoss in every game. as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else? Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame.
Well toss didn't have a huge representation in GSL because of swarm season qualifiers anyway and Creator really shouldn't count in anyone's statistics. Honestly surprised Protoss aren't murdering zergs. I can't wait to see a lot more gateway heavy openings.
Personally, the funniest thing about this whole debacle has been how terran bitched and bitched about the removal of the warhound (Horrible unit and people should feel ashamed for wanting it in any game) Now they appear to have the most viable and important new additions.
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On April 19 2013 07:46 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote:On April 18 2013 20:04 Big J wrote:On April 18 2013 19:56 Thor.Rush wrote:
In TvP, Terran is strongest in the midgame and always has been (except maybe when toss goes for a 2/2 2base timing). It will be extremely rare to see a pro Terran who wants to go lategame vs Protoss in every game. as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else? Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Well toss didn't have a huge representation in GSL because of swarm season qualifiers anyway and Creator really shouldn't count in anyone's statistics. Honestly surprised Protoss aren't murdering zergs. I can't wait to see a lot more gateway heavy openings. Personally, the funniest thing about this whole debacle has been how terran bitched and bitched about the removal of the warhound (Horrible unit and people should feel ashamed for wanting it in any game) Now they appear to have the most viable and important new additions.
Most Terrans were unhappy because the unit was simply removed after only a couple of tweaks rather than worked on more extensively. It was like Blizzard didn't even try to make it work.
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On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:
And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time.
The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy.
Whilst I agree that T looks strong versus P now, I don't think that is because of the scv pulls. You said it yourself what counters it, watch out for either more colossi or faster high templars in the coming high level pvts.
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On April 19 2013 07:49 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:46 Sabu113 wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote:On April 18 2013 20:04 Big J wrote:On April 18 2013 19:56 Thor.Rush wrote:
In TvP, Terran is strongest in the midgame and always has been (except maybe when toss goes for a 2/2 2base timing). It will be extremely rare to see a pro Terran who wants to go lategame vs Protoss in every game. as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else? Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Well toss didn't have a huge representation in GSL because of swarm season qualifiers anyway and Creator really shouldn't count in anyone's statistics. Honestly surprised Protoss aren't murdering zergs. I can't wait to see a lot more gateway heavy openings. Personally, the funniest thing about this whole debacle has been how terran bitched and bitched about the removal of the warhound (Horrible unit and people should feel ashamed for wanting it in any game) Now they appear to have the most viable and important new additions. Most Terrans were unhappy because the unit was simply removed after only a couple of tweaks rather than worked on more extensively. It was like Blizzard didn't even try to make it work.
Well it was a stupid unit though and personally I think it was right to just scrape it. Mech needed another unit, the goliath, but because blizz is insanely stubborn we just got a thor that could change into a not-really-better-at-all mode.
Personally I disagree that terran bitched much about the removal of the warhound. If anything I felt people were relieved rather, since TvX was all about just making warhounds and 1a.
Edit: Infact esp TvT, as soon as you didn't get the auto-cast ability off and your opponent did, a lot of the times you were dead. The auto cast just spiral'd things way to much out of control to be able to be balanced.
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On April 19 2013 07:53 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:
And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time.
The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy. Whilst I agree that T looks strong versus P now, I don't think that is because of the scv pulls. You said it yourself what counters it, watch out for either more colossi or faster high templars in the coming high level pvts.
I know I wasn't saying it was OP either. The SCV pulls in that set were due to Bomber's preparation and his understanding of Creator's playstyle. That SCV pull timing isn't something that can be consistent its more of a reaction. Not OP, but insanely hard to beat with Creator's playstyle in that specific situation
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On April 19 2013 08:25 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:53 kyllinghest wrote:On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:
And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time.
The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy. Whilst I agree that T looks strong versus P now, I don't think that is because of the scv pulls. You said it yourself what counters it, watch out for either more colossi or faster high templars in the coming high level pvts. I know I wasn't saying it was OP either. The SCV pulls in that set were due to Bomber's preparation and his understanding of Creator's playstyle. That SCV pull timing isn't something that can be consistent its more of a reaction. Not OP, but insanely hard to beat with Creator's playstyle in that specific situation
I agree with you then!
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On April 19 2013 07:53 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:
And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time.
The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy. Whilst I agree that T looks strong versus P now, I don't think that is because of the scv pulls. You said it yourself what counters it, watch out for either more colossi or faster high templars in the coming high level pvts.
The reason these pulls are working, is protoss has a much harder time stopping drops. They have to invest more money into gateway units earlier (where before 5 stalkers in position would stop a double drop, now those five stalkers are wiped out without taking out any terran units). To get the faster tech out would skimp on that drop defense, and if terran is aware of the investment into the tech early then they will obviously not pull SCVs. Basically, protoss will have to take a huge early risk to be ~even in the mid game.
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On April 19 2013 07:57 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:49 forsooth wrote:On April 19 2013 07:46 Sabu113 wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote:On April 18 2013 20:04 Big J wrote:On April 18 2013 19:56 Thor.Rush wrote:
In TvP, Terran is strongest in the midgame and always has been (except maybe when toss goes for a 2/2 2base timing). It will be extremely rare to see a pro Terran who wants to go lategame vs Protoss in every game. as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else? Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Well toss didn't have a huge representation in GSL because of swarm season qualifiers anyway and Creator really shouldn't count in anyone's statistics. Honestly surprised Protoss aren't murdering zergs. I can't wait to see a lot more gateway heavy openings. Personally, the funniest thing about this whole debacle has been how terran bitched and bitched about the removal of the warhound (Horrible unit and people should feel ashamed for wanting it in any game) Now they appear to have the most viable and important new additions. Most Terrans were unhappy because the unit was simply removed after only a couple of tweaks rather than worked on more extensively. It was like Blizzard didn't even try to make it work. Well it was a stupid unit though and personally I think it was right to just scrape it. Mech needed another unit, the goliath, but because blizz is insanely stubborn we just got a thor that could change into a not-really-better-at-all mode. Personally I disagree that terran bitched much about the removal of the warhound. If anything I felt people were relieved rather, since TvX was all about just making warhounds and 1a. Edit: Infact esp TvT, as soon as you didn't get the auto-cast ability off and your opponent did, a lot of the times you were dead. The auto cast just spiral'd things way to much out of control to be able to be balanced.
Ultimately I was glad they got rid of it as well, it was a boring unit that made TvT a 1a matchup. I've always felt factory play should be tank-centric, but Blizzard is determined to disagree with me on that.
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Northern Ireland27315 Posts
They work because Protoss can't/aren't taking early thirds and the 5th/6th gases which gives them the tech they need. Smart WoL builds like Parting's fast 3rd Nexus with an 8 gate pressure have died out, because Protoss players are terrified about spreading out to three locations, perhaps there'll be some figuring out to do, perhaps it's just a reality of a changed matchup.
Creator is a good example of a player whose razor-tight defensive styles, cutting as many units as possible were a hallmark of his PvT, and it's just not really working in HoTs thus far.
Timings are in flux and Protoss are getting flummoxed by this. Imbalance? No, perhaps not, but let's not make out that Protoss players are dumb, or that the matchup hasn't changed to reflect new units from the other races.
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Northern Ireland27315 Posts
It's really not, these timings are hitting when in WoL it would be 3 base Toss, vs 3 of T. The games I'm seeing it in it's 2 base Toss vs 3 base T (or the CC is floating over). I'ts really not as simple as you make out, it's a consequence of Protoss playing 'too safe', either by a conscious (bad) decision to, or being somewhat forced into it.
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Two things:
Problem: late game Protoss Air + HT is unbelieveably good against zerg. Vipers can use yoink ability, but are often slaughtered by HT before it amounts to much.
Solution: Vipers' blinding cloud works against air.
Side effects: could be OP against Terran, when used in conjuntion with Fungal.
Also, metagame:
The future of Zerg in HOTS is the Swarm Host. BLing not good against WM. Roach Hydra not good against anything (nice try Blizzard!) Toss Air crushes Zerg Air. The problem with Swarm Hosts is they are incredibly difficult to micro when the enemy is in range, so pros are scared of them right now...
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On April 19 2013 09:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
They work because Protoss can't/aren't taking early thirds and the 5th/6th gases which gives them the tech they need. Smart WoL builds like Parting's fast 3rd Nexus with an 8 gate pressure have died out, because Protoss players are terrified about spreading out to three locations, perhaps there'll be some figuring out to do, perhaps it's just a reality of a changed matchup.
Creator is a good example of a player whose razor-tight defensive styles, cutting as many units as possible were a hallmark of his PvT, and it's just not really working in HoTs thus far.
Timings are in flux and Protoss are getting flummoxed by this. Imbalance? No, perhaps not, but let's not make out that Protoss players are dumb, or that the matchup hasn't changed to reflect new units from the other races.
Creator's razor-tight defensive styles doesn't work because it typically relies on a lot of gas for colossi and fast double forge ups. He doesn't tech quickly, and when you play as predictably as he tends to, people will find ways to crush your builds i.e. what Bomber did. I've seen a number of other Protoss players hold that timing.
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On April 19 2013 10:00 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 09:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
They work because Protoss can't/aren't taking early thirds and the 5th/6th gases which gives them the tech they need. Smart WoL builds like Parting's fast 3rd Nexus with an 8 gate pressure have died out, because Protoss players are terrified about spreading out to three locations, perhaps there'll be some figuring out to do, perhaps it's just a reality of a changed matchup.
Creator is a good example of a player whose razor-tight defensive styles, cutting as many units as possible were a hallmark of his PvT, and it's just not really working in HoTs thus far.
Timings are in flux and Protoss are getting flummoxed by this. Imbalance? No, perhaps not, but let's not make out that Protoss players are dumb, or that the matchup hasn't changed to reflect new units from the other races. It is way simpler then this. If the attack hits before storm then Terran wins almost every time. If Toss get storm out in time then they will win pretty much every time. I doubt any Terran player goes into their match preparing to do that. It is a reactionary thing based off how much units Protoss has and their storm timing.
Startale Bomber
Q: You performed a few SCV-pulled, all-in type rushes against Creator.
A: I had confidence that I would win with those timings, but I made a big micro mistakes against him in the first game. It's a timing that Protoss shouldn't be able to stop.
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406280
Late game PvT is on a timer as well. The terran ultra composition is better so toss need to be aggressive and get engagements before too much of the binary counter builds up (enough vikings or ghosts that destroy archons). So it's not quite that desperate but the edge terran has is almost fully available entering into the midgame and dissipates as the game reaches the late game and toss has both forms of splash available and can start incorporating expensive units like immortals an archons into the composition.
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On April 19 2013 07:57 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:49 forsooth wrote:On April 19 2013 07:46 Sabu113 wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote:On April 18 2013 20:04 Big J wrote:On April 18 2013 19:56 Thor.Rush wrote:
In TvP, Terran is strongest in the midgame and always has been (except maybe when toss goes for a 2/2 2base timing). It will be extremely rare to see a pro Terran who wants to go lategame vs Protoss in every game. as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else? Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Well toss didn't have a huge representation in GSL because of swarm season qualifiers anyway and Creator really shouldn't count in anyone's statistics. Honestly surprised Protoss aren't murdering zergs. I can't wait to see a lot more gateway heavy openings. Personally, the funniest thing about this whole debacle has been how terran bitched and bitched about the removal of the warhound (Horrible unit and people should feel ashamed for wanting it in any game) Now they appear to have the most viable and important new additions. Most Terrans were unhappy because the unit was simply removed after only a couple of tweaks rather than worked on more extensively. It was like Blizzard didn't even try to make it work. Well it was a stupid unit though and personally I think it was right to just scrape it. Mech needed another unit, the goliath, but because blizz is insanely stubborn we just got a thor that could change into a not-really-better-at-all mode. Personally I disagree that terran bitched much about the removal of the warhound. If anything I felt people were relieved rather, since TvX was all about just making warhounds and 1a. Edit: Infact esp TvT, as soon as you didn't get the auto-cast ability off and your opponent did, a lot of the times you were dead. The auto cast just spiral'd things way to much out of control to be able to be balanced.
Most Terrans were glad at the beginning when they removed it because of the whispers of a rework in the future. We thought, "You can take it back for now and we'll finally explore the other units." After awhile, we saw that mech was just as bad as before, but were then told that the warhound was permanently scrapped. It was really disappointing to a lot of us.
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The latest diamond-platinum-gold cup held at SEA server had a PvP final. Nuff said lol
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On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:25 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:04 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:51 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote:On April 18 2013 20:04 Big J wrote:On April 18 2013 19:56 Thor.Rush wrote:
In TvP, Terran is strongest in the midgame and always has been (except maybe when toss goes for a 2/2 2base timing). It will be extremely rare to see a pro Terran who wants to go lategame vs Protoss in every game. as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else? Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Read the fucking thread. On April 19 2013 06:11 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 05:48 Dudasc wrote:
this game is so "well" balanced that no zerg made it through the WCS qualifiers. Looks like all the accomplished zergs (targa, xlord, etc) lost to "big names" like Siw and Bunny
IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously? Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? Why are you feeding me some BS about Zergs. This is about Protoss not doing anything. Way to cuss and then attempt a red herring. You're a moron. I think its pretty obvious your ability to argue is pretty weak. You keep referencing Zerg in a discussion about Protoss. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there.
Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs.
You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame.
Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you?
So, Terrans are advancing and it's proof that Protoss can't advance because of Terrans. Whereas Zergs advancing is .. ? Nothing? I guess all Zergs just forfeit when they are matched against a Protoss. But better yet, what happens when a good Protoss gets taken down by a good Zerg? Then all protoss representation goes into shit without Terrans lifting a finger. To blame it all on Terrans, bravo. I mean, look at the last GSL games. Getting taken out with SCV all-in when Protoss has access to forcefields and collosi. Those were some bad plays. And yet that gets no mention. Naw, you're right. Definite proof that Terran is OP. RorO didn't play against any Protoss when he advanced. soO lost 2-0 to sOs in his only ZvP when he advanced. KangHo didn't have a Protoss in his group. Shine 2-0ed Squirtle in his only ZvP, Symbol didn't play a P. Soulkey didn't have a Protoss in his group. So actually, Zerg hasn't been responsible for hardly any of the Protoss defeats. And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time. The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy.
Yeah, forcefields are hard. And while the force-fields are holding off the SCVs; yeah, selecting just the collosi to attack rather than whole army is hard. Once the SCV are fried, refreshing forcefields are hard. Using the time bought to warp in more units, finish upgrades, yeah, hard.
It's insanely hard, No denying it. But they're Code S. They can do this kind of shit.
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EPT
