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On April 18 2013 15:02 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 14:59 convention wrote:On April 18 2013 14:13 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm really starting to have qualms with how Terran is at the Code S level these days, but will reserve judgement for a while until more games have been played. I have much bigger issues with protoss in Code S. Terran and zerg are both about equal, but it seems like it's getting harder for protoss to stay in. That's kind of my issue  Innovation played great tonight, as did Gumiho but Hyun was made to look terrible while not playing that badly at times. Protoss problems with speedivacs and harassment are coming to roost. Not that they die, but they can't take thirds early anymore, or they won't/haven't figured out how to. They lack the funds to get the upgrades and dual tech up quickly enough, and get stomped by Bio pushes augmented with SCV buffers. Protoss actually have BETTER defences against this now, with the MsC than they did in WoL, but the SCV pull is coming back into fashion, and imo its entirely due to the hard time Protoss have taking thirds on most maps that are safe.
It's funny how it works: thanks to the new medivac the protoss need to delay their third base slightly and as a result every timing from that point on changes. SCV all-ins were popular in Wings of Liberty, but eventually disappeared. They are stronger now, so I don't think it's surprising to see them come back into fashion, but whether they will last as a dominant strategy is to be seen.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Again, it's a game in flux at present. We'll see if Protoss players re-establish new patterns of play in the interim, here's hoping
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Vatican City State431 Posts
On April 18 2013 16:48 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 15:02 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 18 2013 14:59 convention wrote:On April 18 2013 14:13 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm really starting to have qualms with how Terran is at the Code S level these days, but will reserve judgement for a while until more games have been played. I have much bigger issues with protoss in Code S. Terran and zerg are both about equal, but it seems like it's getting harder for protoss to stay in. That's kind of my issue Innovation played great tonight, as did Gumiho but Hyun was made to look terrible while not playing that badly at times. Protoss problems with speedivacs and harassment are coming to roost. Not that they die, but they can't take thirds early anymore, or they won't/haven't figured out how to. They lack the funds to get the upgrades and dual tech up quickly enough, and get stomped by Bio pushes augmented with SCV buffers. Protoss actually have BETTER defences against this now, with the MsC than they did in WoL, but the SCV pull is coming back into fashion, and imo its entirely due to the hard time Protoss have taking thirds on most maps that are safe. It's funny how it works: thanks to the new medivac the protoss need to delay their third base slightly and as a result every timing from that point on changes. SCV all-ins were popular in Wings of Liberty, but eventually disappeared. They are stronger now, so I don't think it's surprising to see them come back into fashion, but whether they will last as a dominant strategy is to be seen.
They are popular now because Terran doesn't want to go late game with Protoss. Protoss is the race with the best end game units: Void Rays, Carriers, Collosus, Templars, Tempests etc. If a Protoss goes SkyToss and its not harassed during early game it's GG. Terran is a rush race with gimmicky units like Reapers, widow mines and speedvacs.
What end game units does the Terran has? Ravens are too unreliable, Thors are easily countered by tier 1 units, battlecruisers are slow with bad damage and there are many units that can counter them easily. Terran also has one of the worst aoe spells in the game: nukes, seeker missiles, emp (doesn't actually do damage and has very small radius)
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
All of those may be correct in isolation, but really don't reflect high level PvT gameflow at all. Skytoss I have yet to see, ever in a Korean PvT for example
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On April 18 2013 17:28 p14c wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 16:48 Grumbels wrote:On April 18 2013 15:02 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 18 2013 14:59 convention wrote:On April 18 2013 14:13 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm really starting to have qualms with how Terran is at the Code S level these days, but will reserve judgement for a while until more games have been played. I have much bigger issues with protoss in Code S. Terran and zerg are both about equal, but it seems like it's getting harder for protoss to stay in. That's kind of my issue Innovation played great tonight, as did Gumiho but Hyun was made to look terrible while not playing that badly at times. Protoss problems with speedivacs and harassment are coming to roost. Not that they die, but they can't take thirds early anymore, or they won't/haven't figured out how to. They lack the funds to get the upgrades and dual tech up quickly enough, and get stomped by Bio pushes augmented with SCV buffers. Protoss actually have BETTER defences against this now, with the MsC than they did in WoL, but the SCV pull is coming back into fashion, and imo its entirely due to the hard time Protoss have taking thirds on most maps that are safe. It's funny how it works: thanks to the new medivac the protoss need to delay their third base slightly and as a result every timing from that point on changes. SCV all-ins were popular in Wings of Liberty, but eventually disappeared. They are stronger now, so I don't think it's surprising to see them come back into fashion, but whether they will last as a dominant strategy is to be seen. They are popular now because Terran doesn't want to go late game with Protoss. Protoss is the race with the best end game units: Void Rays, Carriers, Collosus, Templars, Tempests etc. If a Protoss goes SkyToss and its not harassed during early game it's GG. Terran is a rush race with gimmicky units like Reapers, widow mines and speedvacs. What end game units does the Terran has? Ravens are too unreliable, Thors are easily countered by tier 1 units, battlecruisers are slow with bad damage and there are many units that can counter them easily. Terran also has one of the worst aoe spells in the game: nukes, seeker missiles, emp (doesn't actually do damage and has very small radius)
Wait, so carriers are great endgame units, but BCs which have superior stats in every category apart from range suck?
Thors are countered by low tier units but void ray tempest carrier arent (marine). And you are miss the best TvP endamge unit: the ghost.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
On April 18 2013 17:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 17:28 p14c wrote:On April 18 2013 16:48 Grumbels wrote:On April 18 2013 15:02 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 18 2013 14:59 convention wrote:On April 18 2013 14:13 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm really starting to have qualms with how Terran is at the Code S level these days, but will reserve judgement for a while until more games have been played. I have much bigger issues with protoss in Code S. Terran and zerg are both about equal, but it seems like it's getting harder for protoss to stay in. That's kind of my issue Innovation played great tonight, as did Gumiho but Hyun was made to look terrible while not playing that badly at times. Protoss problems with speedivacs and harassment are coming to roost. Not that they die, but they can't take thirds early anymore, or they won't/haven't figured out how to. They lack the funds to get the upgrades and dual tech up quickly enough, and get stomped by Bio pushes augmented with SCV buffers. Protoss actually have BETTER defences against this now, with the MsC than they did in WoL, but the SCV pull is coming back into fashion, and imo its entirely due to the hard time Protoss have taking thirds on most maps that are safe. It's funny how it works: thanks to the new medivac the protoss need to delay their third base slightly and as a result every timing from that point on changes. SCV all-ins were popular in Wings of Liberty, but eventually disappeared. They are stronger now, so I don't think it's surprising to see them come back into fashion, but whether they will last as a dominant strategy is to be seen. They are popular now because Terran doesn't want to go late game with Protoss. Protoss is the race with the best end game units: Void Rays, Carriers, Collosus, Templars, Tempests etc. If a Protoss goes SkyToss and its not harassed during early game it's GG. Terran is a rush race with gimmicky units like Reapers, widow mines and speedvacs. What end game units does the Terran has? Ravens are too unreliable, Thors are easily countered by tier 1 units, battlecruisers are slow with bad damage and there are many units that can counter them easily. Terran also has one of the worst aoe spells in the game: nukes, seeker missiles, emp (doesn't actually do damage and has very small radius) Wait, so carriers are great endgame units, but BCs which have superior stats in every category apart from range suck? Thors are countered by low tier units but void ray tempest carrier arent (marine). And you are miss the best TvP endamge unit: the ghost.
Yes ! Carriers are a great endgame unit once you reach the magic number. Thors are a joke. They can't even counter muta properly(the role which is supposed to do by design). Feedback is much better than EMP btw. Psi storm also.
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On April 18 2013 15:02 Wombat_NI wrote:That's kind of my issue Innovation played great tonight, as did Gumiho but Hyun was made to look terrible while not playing that badly at times.
? HyuN did play bad. None of his losses had anything to do with a supposed "Terran imbalance," but came down to his builds and decisions.
On April 18 2013 15:18 Wombat_NI wrote:
I haven't seen instances where I actually thought forcefields or lack thereof made a difference, the lack of sufficient splash has always been the case.
Forcefields make a huge difference. You just can't win squeezing 180 supply of SCVs/bio through a 5 hex corridor against Colossi.
On April 18 2013 16:48 Grumbels wrote:
SCV all-ins were popular in Wings of Liberty, but eventually disappeared.
They never disappeared.
On April 18 2013 17:37 Big J wrote:
Wait, so carriers are great endgame units, but BCs which have superior stats in every category apart from range suck?
Battlecruisers? Call me the day Terran has enough time/resources to reliably transition into Battlecruisers by lategame in more than 0.001% of the game; and why would you try that in HotS when the Tempest exists is beyond me. Problems in lategame TvP have nothing to do with "units stats" but everything to do with Warpgate (production, tech switches and harass).
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well carriers require a 300/200 tech structure, and take two minutes to build :D
Battlecruisers work tvp. You can go temptest as a response, but temptest are extremely weak to vikings, so you have to keep them save from vikings with stalkers and ht's while keeping those out of tank range. I've played pvt's like that it's very hard to fight a mech army with battlecruisers. I have no opinion on anything relating balance, I just thought I'd point that out.
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On April 18 2013 18:23 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 17:37 Big J wrote:
Wait, so carriers are great endgame units, but BCs which have superior stats in every category apart from range suck? Battlecruisers? Call me the day Terran has enough time/resources to reliably transition into Battlecruisers by lategame in more than 0.001% of the game; and why would you try that in HotS when the Tempest exists is beyond me. Problems in lategame TvP have nothing to do with "units stats" but everything to do with Warpgate (production, tech switches and harass).
Read what I wrote. I didn't say that they are being used or good. I just said that they are better than Carriers.
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On April 18 2013 17:33 Wombat_NI wrote:
All of those may be correct in isolation, but really don't reflect high level PvT gameflow at all. Skytoss I have yet to see, ever in a Korean PvT for example
+ Show Spoiler +
There are a lot of examples from non-Koreans even from WOL. Most are in response to mech.
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Seriously terrans are whining about carriers now?
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On April 18 2013 19:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 17:33 Wombat_NI wrote:
All of those may be correct in isolation, but really don't reflect high level PvT gameflow at all. Skytoss I have yet to see, ever in a Korean PvT for example + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsZfREwgScw There are a lot of examples from non-Koreans even from WOL. Most are in response to mech.
Try it against bio and let me know how that goes. When did you last see mech in tournament play?
MAybe I'm wrong and I just cherrypick the wrong games, I haven't seen it.
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On April 18 2013 19:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 19:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On April 18 2013 17:33 Wombat_NI wrote:
All of those may be correct in isolation, but really don't reflect high level PvT gameflow at all. Skytoss I have yet to see, ever in a Korean PvT for example + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsZfREwgScw There are a lot of examples from non-Koreans even from WOL. Most are in response to mech. Try it against bio and let me know how that goes. When did you last see mech in tournament play? MAybe I'm wrong and I just cherrypick the wrong games, I haven't seen it.
It probably wouldn't go to well against bio, because bio consists of massing all the Terran anti air (marines and Vikings). There have been a few mech games in this last few days of WCS EU with mech. As far as Korean vs Korean, i think the game i linked is the only one, sadly.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Hence why making out that Toss has all these unkillable Airtoss armies is redundant in TvP if it never actually happens right?
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In TvP, Terran is strongest in the midgame and always has been (except maybe when toss goes for a 2/2 2base timing). It will be extremely rare to see a pro Terran who wants to go lategame vs Protoss in every game.
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On April 18 2013 19:53 Wombat_NI wrote:
Hence why making out that Toss has all these unkillable Airtoss armies is redundant in TvP if it never actually happens right?
This. Skytoss argument makes no sense since nobody has ever used it pretty much.
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On April 18 2013 19:56 Thor.Rush wrote:
In TvP, Terran is strongest in the midgame and always has been (except maybe when toss goes for a 2/2 2base timing). It will be extremely rare to see a pro Terran who wants to go lategame vs Protoss in every game.
as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else?
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
So annoying. Try to discuss current trends in Korean TvP based on what I'm actually seeing in games. Instead we discuss hypothetical comps that aren't often seen in pro games.
SCV saccing 'pure' maxes of pure ghost viking with some medivacs are incredibly strong as well.
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On April 18 2013 19:53 Wombat_NI wrote:
Hence why making out that Toss has all these unkillable Airtoss armies is redundant in TvP if it never actually happens right?
Absolutely! It is possible that skytoss is potentially to strong against mech, but we first have to see A LOT more mech games before concluding anything about skytoss.
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On April 18 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 18:23 TheDwf wrote:On April 18 2013 17:37 Big J wrote:
Wait, so carriers are great endgame units, but BCs which have superior stats in every category apart from range suck? Battlecruisers? Call me the day Terran has enough time/resources to reliably transition into Battlecruisers by lategame in more than 0.001% of the game; and why would you try that in HotS when the Tempest exists is beyond me. Problems in lategame TvP have nothing to do with "units stats" but everything to do with Warpgate (production, tech switches and harass). Read what I wrote. I didn't say that they are being used or good. I just said that they are better than Carriers.
It is kinda debatable if a unit which attacks directly is better than a unit which attacks through a proxy unit that. With the kill speed in SC2 it is rather dangerous to be a capital ship, but it is a playstyle difference. One has an achilles heel against Protoss and the other can be chronoboosted out.
Just to make it clear: all I am saying is that the decision which unit is better is less easy than you make it seem. Higher dps doesnt always "win" over lower dps, because you still have to keep your units alive. Personally I would say the decision is based mostly on your personal playstyle preference.
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EPT
