EPTAnyway if zerg loses that many units due to bad play he is instant dead while terran even has the chance to rebuild due to the fact that you can't actually kill the terran after he did a bad engagement most of the time due to his defensive mechanics (wall, pf, mines, bunkers, cheap fast rebuilded marines, medivacs never die, medivacs carry half of the army back anyway ........)
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 456
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Anyway if zerg loses that many units due to bad play he is instant dead while terran even has the chance to rebuild due to the fact that you can't actually kill the terran after he did a bad engagement most of the time due to his defensive mechanics (wall, pf, mines, bunkers, cheap fast rebuilded marines, medivacs never die, medivacs carry half of the army back anyway ........) | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On April 18 2013 12:02 LSN wrote: in this scenario terran has 10+rax with some reactors and can rebuild marines quite fast. marines are universal units while zerglings in many sitations can't do anything. Still you gotta morph them to banelings etc. Anyway if zerg loses that many units due to bad play he is instant dead while terran even has the chance to rebuild due to the fact that you can't actually kill the terran after he did a bad engagement most of the time due to his defensive mechanics (wall, pf, mines, bunkers, cheap fast rebuilded marines, medivacs never die, medivacs carry half of the army back anyway ........) Please tell me that I should mass marines when the Zerg is doing Ultralisk. 10 rax reactor is just stupid shit to do. What are you playing lol. +Lol. Terrans is the race where the minimal mistake might be game lose while zerg is pretty pardoning in this way, stop spreading fake shit like that, even the most biased zerg won't say that. | ||
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Crankyhobo
United States12 Posts
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Bad attack? Load in and boost away. Exchange marines for ling/bane? still good enaugh as banelings are quite expensive and die anyway! What is the metagame of ZvT? Terran throws stuff against Z and zerg either kills/repells this stuff or instantly dies. It is the mechanic of terran to throw stuff against zerg, constantly lose some of it, rebuild it and continue to throw stuff against zerg. And just if zerg holds it continues. If Zergs doesnt hold its instant lose, if terran does not win instantly it just continues. But you are right this is probably a bit biased too. I think both races have unforgiving moments and things that they can deal with better. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On April 18 2013 12:31 LSN wrote: its just bullshit to say zerg is pardoning while zerg dies to minimal mistakes instantly like overdroning 2-3 drones and stuff like this. Terran is in fact pardoning: Bad attack? Load in and boost away. Exchange marines for ling/bane? still good enaugh as banelings are quite expensive and die anyway! What is the metagame of ZvT? Terran throws stuff against Z and zerg either kills/repells this stuff or instantly dies. It is the mechanic of terran to throw stuff against zerg, constantly lose some of it, rebuild it and continue to throw stuff against zerg. And just if zerg holds it continues. If Zergs doesnt hold its instant lose, if terran does not win instantly it just continues. But you are right this is probably a bit biased too. I think both races have unforgiving moments and things that they can deal with better. How can you die because you did 3 drones ? You might lose the game because you didn't get the mapcontrol and starts 20 drones 3 times in a row because you wanted to be greedy and though that queens counter everything. If you don"t have a good split with marines, baneling because very effective + you shouldn't make only bane but mix with a lot of speedling which become way more effective against a spread terrans army. Damn, I stop arguing with you, you look totally close to discussion. Stay bad at the game and whine about it, don't try to improve, I actually don't care about your situation. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
I gave the points of the patch history (and how infestor was the problem that has been fixed) and the gas thing. Btw as you seem interested I play bw since 98 and am master league since day one. And I have no dreams about becoming a progamer and making a living from it etc. I am discussing about balance here. My 2 major complaints you can reread in my previous posts. If you don't know that zerg can lose games by default just from overdroning a little vs a push then you don't know alot. 2-3 drones can and in reality often do the difference, but this sure applies more on ZvP than ZvT. ZvT is similar tho. Anyway it was an example and not meant to drive you mad. If its more understandable for you I can give alot of other examples. E.g. zerg does not have enaugh banelings vs terran push+simultanious drops. Just the time it needs to morph banelings and what terran can do meanwhiles can lose you the game if you do not have enaugh banes beforehand (due to constant pressure pushes+drops from terran). | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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HanSomPa
United States87 Posts
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On April 18 2013 13:30 HanSomPa wrote: LSN, it's called scouting. If you lost because you made too many drones, you're just bad at scouting. thank you alot. The thing about overdroning is not issue of this topic. I gave an example where zerg can easily lose a match due to a minor single mistake (because it was asked for). But feel free to give me advices! :D | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23768 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On April 18 2013 14:13 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm really starting to have qualms with how Terran is at the Code S level these days, but will reserve judgement for a while until more games have been played. I have much bigger issues with protoss in Code S. Terran and zerg are both about equal, but it seems like it's getting harder for protoss to stay in. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23768 Posts
On April 18 2013 14:59 convention wrote: I have much bigger issues with protoss in Code S. Terran and zerg are both about equal, but it seems like it's getting harder for protoss to stay in. That's kind of my issue  Innovation played great tonight, as did Gumiho but Hyun was made to look terrible while not playing that badly at times.Protoss problems with speedivacs and harassment are coming to roost. Not that they die, but they can't take thirds early anymore, or they won't/haven't figured out how to. They lack the funds to get the upgrades and dual tech up quickly enough, and get stomped by Bio pushes augmented with SCV buffers. Protoss actually have BETTER defences against this now, with the MsC than they did in WoL, but the SCV pull is coming back into fashion, and imo its entirely due to the hard time Protoss have taking thirds on most maps that are safe. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On April 18 2013 15:02 Wombat_NI wrote: That's kind of my issue Innovation played great tonight, as did Gumiho but Hyun was made to look terrible while not playing that badly at times.Protoss problems with speedivacs and harassment are coming to roost. Not that they die, but they can't take thirds early anymore, or they won't/haven't figured out how to. They lack the funds to get the upgrades and dual tech up quickly enough, and get stomped by Bio pushes augmented with SCV buffers. Protoss actually have BETTER defences against this now, with the MsC than they did in WoL, but the SCV pull is coming back into fashion, and imo its entirely due to the hard time Protoss have taking thirds on most maps that are safe. So when did forcefields go out of fashion? I think the issue is that it's a new meta and catching the protoss off-guard. Unless the SCV pull was being done for quite a while now. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23768 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On April 18 2013 12:55 Emzeeshady wrote: I think the roles are starting to reverse in HOTS. Zerg was always forgiving in wings because you could fungal and leave if you were in a bad engagement. Now it is the other way around. If the Terran is in a bad engagement he just lifts and flies away were as Zerg loses a ton of units. For bio + mines that is partially true (although a single fungle that hits can still really ruin that plan, I expect that some day zerg find out fungals still exist). And while that is quite popular atm, if you look at mech/bio-mech builds there really is no running from bad engagements, unless you want to leave all your siege tanks behind. And all zerg has to do to get out of a bad engagement is let his army run back. Even a stimmed bio army has enough trouble keeping up with regular zerg army, let alone mech. But what I still wonder, if terran would be such a great race, then why is it still the least played race between gold and GM? If there is one thing that has been a constant in every game I played, no matter if it is an RTS, an MMO or a shooter: players always converge on whatever is strongest at that moment. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23768 Posts
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On April 18 2013 15:22 Wombat_NI wrote: It is strong(est?) at that level of play, but hard as hell to play to that level. I thought that was kind of accepted as a given? I constantly encounter tons of masters players that still live in their delusion (mostly 100 apm high masters tosses, yes, those still exist) , I wouldn't expect the common player to think otherwise, everyone plays the hardest race. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23768 Posts
On April 18 2013 16:14 IshinShishi wrote: I constantly encounter tons of masters players that still live in their delusion (mostly 100 apm high masters tosses, yes, those still exist) , I wouldn't expect the common player to think otherwise, everyone plays the hardest race. I thought anybody who had ever dipped their toes into playing Terran would have agreed that it's hard as fuck lol? Perhaps the reason so many balance whining folks exist is because they haven't even tried the other races that they like to complain about? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 18 2013 10:42 Merkmerk wrote: Widow Mines *are* OP. I'm sorry, but them's the facts, and they will get nerfed. It doesn't take a genius to see why WM are OP. It really doesn't. But it does take willful ignorance and essentially sticking your fingers in your ears to argue that they're fine. They will most likely get a significant splash damage nerf which should take them down a notch. Are they? I don't think so. Tell me which units is the mine actually good against? Baneling, Mutalisk... sometimes against zerglings. well, then maybe don't play that style against mines and go roach/hydra, swarm hosts, queens, infestors. (yeah, not serious. Just want you to think about which unit actually makes most of zergs units unavailable in that matchup and which unit is simply "just good" against what's left) On April 18 2013 16:18 Wombat_NI wrote: I thought anybody who had ever dipped their toes into playing Terran would have agreed that it's hard as fuck lol? Perhaps the reason so many balance whining folks exist is because they haven't even tried the other races that they like to complain about? I've actually switched to only Terran these days. I don't think it's hard (playing around low masters level, just like my zerg used to be these days). Though I haven't really understood TvP (how to deny thirds properly, how to abuse overdefending Protosses, how to abuse wheter one goes Colossi or Templar). But it's also hard to learn when the few times I play vs P I'm just getting 1base allined... | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On April 18 2013 15:02 Wombat_NI wrote: That's kind of my issue Innovation played great tonight, as did Gumiho but Hyun was made to look terrible while not playing that badly at times.Protoss problems with speedivacs and harassment are coming to roost. Not that they die, but they can't take thirds early anymore, or they won't/haven't figured out how to. They lack the funds to get the upgrades and dual tech up quickly enough, and get stomped by Bio pushes augmented with SCV buffers. Protoss actually have BETTER defences against this now, with the MsC than they did in WoL, but the SCV pull is coming back into fashion, and imo its entirely due to the hard time Protoss have taking thirds on most maps that are safe. Can you elaborate on what you as the problem? In TvP we've basically had: Creator v Bomber 1-2 Yoda 2-0 Flying SoS v MKP 2-1 Keen v Squirtle 2-1 Innovation v Rain 1-2 Innovation v Rain 2-0 Some of these were rather bad (Bomber, I'm looking at you, and actually Innovation v Rain too). But even though I think the scv pull makes for terrible games, it feels like the current meta is: terran defends like mad early (reapers or hellions or drops into CC) to avoid the new protoss aggressive builds, then the moment 2 bases are up, the terran delays the protoss third by dropping while the protoss techs up. The terrans are, I guess, scared of protoss late game and SCV pull while protoss techs to HT. This is terrible for spectators (minus awesome dropping multitasking/defensive multitasking) but doesn't really demonstrate what's viable in the MU. There are also outliers such as Keen playing around with upgraded hellbats but that's literally one game. And as protosses are focusing on defending, counter-pressure with oracles, cheap DTs, zealot warp-ins, storm drops (I recall 1 by squirtle) and air-builds are yet unexplored. | ||
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