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What is this thread coming to? It use to actually talk about balance. Now two consecutive posts complain about how strong early aggression is because you should be able to hold it off without know (then why would anyone ever all-in if you can always stop it? The answer is you wouldn't, so the game would be a 15 minute turtle fest). Then the next post complains about the game being a turtlefest. WoL was a turtle fest, it was boring. HotS is definitely no longer a turtle-fest. And if you can't all-in someone doing a greedy build, then the game would become a turtlefest again.
Also, there were all-ins in BW too. Allins that you couldnt do anything about. And there were all-ins in WC3, again, that you couldn't stop unless you knew ahead of time. That's why you scout the opponent, that's why it's entertaining to watch. Finally, 1 hero v 3 hero and 50 food supply? I dont care how good the other person is, the 50 food/3 hero will win every single time. No micro saves you there.
Let's go back to discussing balance rather than "allins are stupid, they weren't there in other games" when they are in every single RTS game. For example, to me it still seems like it is very hard for protoss to get a third base up in PvT on most maps because of turbo-vacs. I'm worried that we'll have the same constraint with WoL maps had because of PvZ and protoss having a hard time with thirds. Something like third bases will have to be really close to the main and second base, or protoss will be in trouble again.
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Don't really know about other races but looking at DeMuslim play vs Zerg he plays so greedy it´s hilarious and he gets away with it everytime vs high level players. Not in a million years could i play like that as toss. Zerg is playing equally greedy however. I don´t really know but most people bitching about early aggression must play toss since i don´t see any of it in TvZ while toss suffers plenty of early aggression from both T and Z.
Letting people hold early aggression without scouting it is pretty dumb however, the threat of early aggression has to be there, you need to be able to punish greed. For instance at start of WoL zerg couldn't play greedy vs P simply because the threat of a 4 gate. If it was scouted the zerg held it if he played properly, but if he didn´t he lost. Game would be terribly boring without early aggression.
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On April 18 2013 06:51 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 11:12 iky43210 wrote:On April 14 2013 13:03 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 14 2013 11:25 iky43210 wrote:On April 14 2013 10:54 Merkmerk wrote:On April 14 2013 10:00 iky43210 wrote:On April 14 2013 09:48 Merkmerk wrote:
LOL - "these statistics are just cherry picked and being abused to show bias" - Terran players in this thread.
Come on guys. Stephano is complaining about TvZ. The winrates at masters and grandmasters TvZ is all their best matchup.
You're just going to have to accept that TvZ is imbalanced, and that widow mines are completely broken. I know that's difficult because you want to justify to yourself that all those wins were purely your skill, but that's how it is. Why should I care what Stephano says? I am willing to bet any zerg that made code A qualifier is just as good as stephano Korean seems to have no problem advancing in tourneys despite this "widow mine is broken lol". In fact, 12 zerg advanced compare to 7 terran. You're going to have to accept the fact that you're just bad and your attitude is whats holding you back. Fruitdealer won a major tourney when WOL came out, too. The stats don't lie, sorry. Oh, so there just so happen to be 12 fruitdealers in Korea right now. Not that the analogy is good at all in the first place. The stats you are using as a holy grail is tainted and biased. That's all there is to it The Code A qualifiers have always been a crapshoot. Basing balance off of them is stupid. So far all evidence points to Terran being op. Time to suck it up and admit it buddy. Dragon did not pass the code A qualifier, and he is rank 5 GM on NA. Any winners from code A qualifier is probably just as good as most top foreigner "pro". So don't say they are crapshoot And what "evidence"? if you give me stats about Korean terran beating foreigner zerg (which is basically what happens in foreign tourneys), I'll just laugh at you. Fact is TvZ is just about ~50% in GSL and GSL related games, and that is all really matters. Ok, here are Proleague plus GSL plus GSTL win rates for ZvT ZvT: 18:26 59% for Terran If we discount matches with foreigners in them then its 17:24 which is 58% This is top of the line play and Terrans are winning a little bit too much. If we include the all HOTS pro data this will become HUGELY in favour for Terran so ya... I am not saying nerf them yet but will people please stop with this 50% nonsense...
The numbers are tiny as we're in the middle of these tournaments. For example, GSL is currently 12-11 in favour of Z. That's 52% ZvT.
More importantly, we have no idea what the meta will be like. There are some wild strategies out there (True comes to mind) and we have absolutely no idea which of them will become dominant.
So first, saying 50% is not nonsense because winrates fluctuate around 50%, depending on which day you're looking at them and also which day sample size you're looking at. Emzeeshady, who has consistently posted comments skewed in favour of Zerg conveniently ignores Code B results where Z>T. Then, if you take GSL where also Z>T (although it's more like there's only a few matches and they are rather evenly distributed) and mix it with Proleague and GSTL, and voila, we have a sample that gives 59% TvZ.
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On April 18 2013 06:55 convention wrote:
What is this thread coming to? It use to actually talk about balance. Now two consecutive posts complain about how strong early aggression is because you should be able to hold it off without know (then why would anyone ever all-in if you can always stop it? The answer is you wouldn't, so the game would be a 15 minute turtle fest). Then the next post complains about the game being a turtlefest. WoL was a turtle fest, it was boring. HotS is definitely no longer a turtle-fest. And if you can't all-in someone doing a greedy build, then the game would become a turtlefest again.
Also, there were all-ins in BW too. Allins that you couldnt do anything about. And there were all-ins in WC3, again, that you couldn't stop unless you knew ahead of time. That's why you scout the opponent, that's why it's entertaining to watch. Finally, 1 hero v 3 hero and 50 food supply? I dont care how good the other person is, the 50 food/3 hero will win every single time. No micro saves you there.
Let's go back to discussing balance rather than "allins are stupid, they weren't there in other games" when they are in every single RTS game. For example, to me it still seems like it is very hard for protoss to get a third base up in PvT on most maps because of turbo-vacs. I'm worried that we'll have the same constraint with WoL maps had because of PvZ and protoss having a hard time with thirds. Something like third bases will have to be really close to the main and second base, or protoss will be in trouble again.
This thread has sucked major ass for a good while now. Nobody who posts here actually seems to understand the game so it devolves into people either 1) yelling "mine OP" and suggesting some outlandish "fix" that would make the unit completely useless or 2) just theorizing amount random stuff such as fundamental game design that has no relevance to the games current form or balance for that matter.
I don't think the mods care either, so this thread pretty much only exists to keep the crazies in one place.
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On April 18 2013 07:37 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 07:30 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 18 2013 06:51 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 15 2013 11:12 iky43210 wrote:On April 14 2013 13:03 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 14 2013 11:25 iky43210 wrote:On April 14 2013 10:54 Merkmerk wrote:On April 14 2013 10:00 iky43210 wrote:On April 14 2013 09:48 Merkmerk wrote:
LOL - "these statistics are just cherry picked and being abused to show bias" - Terran players in this thread.
Come on guys. Stephano is complaining about TvZ. The winrates at masters and grandmasters TvZ is all their best matchup.
You're just going to have to accept that TvZ is imbalanced, and that widow mines are completely broken. I know that's difficult because you want to justify to yourself that all those wins were purely your skill, but that's how it is. Why should I care what Stephano says? I am willing to bet any zerg that made code A qualifier is just as good as stephano Korean seems to have no problem advancing in tourneys despite this "widow mine is broken lol". In fact, 12 zerg advanced compare to 7 terran. You're going to have to accept the fact that you're just bad and your attitude is whats holding you back. Fruitdealer won a major tourney when WOL came out, too. The stats don't lie, sorry. Oh, so there just so happen to be 12 fruitdealers in Korea right now. Not that the analogy is good at all in the first place. The stats you are using as a holy grail is tainted and biased. That's all there is to it The Code A qualifiers have always been a crapshoot. Basing balance off of them is stupid. So far all evidence points to Terran being op. Time to suck it up and admit it buddy. Dragon did not pass the code A qualifier, and he is rank 5 GM on NA. Any winners from code A qualifier is probably just as good as most top foreigner "pro". So don't say they are crapshoot And what "evidence"? if you give me stats about Korean terran beating foreigner zerg (which is basically what happens in foreign tourneys), I'll just laugh at you. Fact is TvZ is just about ~50% in GSL and GSL related games, and that is all really matters. Ok, here are Proleague plus GSL plus GSTL win rates for ZvT ZvT: 18:26 59% for Terran If we discount matches with foreigners in them then its 17:24 which is 58% This is top of the line play and Terrans are winning a little bit too much. If we include the all HOTS pro data this will become HUGELY in favour for Terran so ya... I am not saying nerf them yet but will people please stop with this 50% nonsense... The numbers are tiny as we're in the middle of these tournaments. For example, GSL is currently 12-11 in favour of Z. That's 52% ZvT. More importantly, we have no idea what the meta will be like. There are some wild strategies out there (True comes to mind) and we have absolutely no idea which of them will become dominant. So first, saying 50% is not nonsense because winrates fluctuate around 50%, depending on which day you're looking at them and also which day sample size you're looking at. Emzeeshady, who has consistently posted comments skewed in favour of Zerg conveniently ignores Code B results where Z>T. Then, if you take GSL where also Z>T (although it's more like there's only a few matches and they are rather evenly distributed) and mix it with Proleague and GSTL, and voila, we have a sample that gives 59% TvZ. Why include Code B in this? That is so random in the players that showed plus there was no way to prepare for opponent. Not to mention anyone can play which throws the stats completely. That is like including the EU WCS qualies (which I also "conveniently ignored despite Terran domination). You are right about the sample size though which is why I said Terra should not be nerfed yet. All I am saying is that Terran is doing by far the best from the results so far (especially outside of Korea). I want to stick with top level games which is Code S + A, GSTL and Proleague
My main point is that you shouldn't be calling people's claims 'nonsense' if there's an equally reasoned way of presenting their stats as there is yours.
One can say the same about GSTL and Proleague - they are very random because teams can run random b-teamers, the maps are weirs as hell in proleague an the matches are Bo1 which means that the meta is entirely different from a Bo3, Bo5 series.
At the same time, your argument about Code B does not sound that good under scrutiny. Anyone can show up to Code B, so there ought to be the same number of top level zerg and terran players and same number of low level zerg and terran players. It's random chance. There is no reason to think that there were more BAD terran players than BAD zerg players, whatever those notions might even mean when we're talking stats.
The bottom line is, I've seen you in this and other threads enough to know that you're familiar with all of what I've written so far as there is nothing new about it at all. I was merely highlighting that you're ignoring these complexities to make your usual point which is that you think T OP. (Even if you generously remark that we ought not to nerf terran YET...)
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yeah this game is so balanced
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well what I consider the main issue in TvZ is the following:
given the fact that Z was superior to T in late WOL there have been alot of changes including the hots changes of units/upgrades. The infestor was the main unit that caused imbalance. I considered muta/ling/bling play vs terran basically as balanced before infestor play came up. So the following things had impact on TvZ.
1. raven got this missile for free for lategame (obviously vs BL/infestor compositions)
2. infestor was nerfed and now comes later in smaller numbers into the game (good)
3. tanks dont need upgrade anymore (good)
4. medivacs have a speed boost (good)
5. widow mines change the gameplay
(6. terran needs almost no gas at all to play up and usually bank alot of gas)
While pure infestor play was op and too simple to execute in late WOL it doesnt exist anymore due to the infestor nerf.
As zergs are more or less now forced to play muta/ling/bling again it would have been all fine in terms balance without all the other changes (1,3,4,5).
What happens now is:
a) In lategame terran has a quite powerful unit, the raven. It basically destroys everything zerg has.
b) midgame muta/ling/bling zvt was quita balanced before infestor play came up. Now with the mine muta/ling/bling is an almost pure defensive way to play and survive the midgame until infestors/ultras come out cause you cant take too many risks moving out and then lose units to mines or get dropped at the same time etc. Dealing with mines in midgame takes too much effort to do it effectively - you never know how many and where they are. Boost drops also are responsible for zerg playing more defensively.
c) zergs usually don't even build broodlords anymore. They were good cause infestors where good. Now what for does terran need all these buffs if 1. midgame is not infestor only anymore and 2. lategame is not BL/infestor anymore??
As problems for terrans where infestor into infestor/bl these issues would have completely fixed with the infestor nerf. But we got all the other changes that impact the matchup even tho infestor into infestor bl seems no longer the game plan for zergs and problem for terrans.
This explains the balance issue quite detailly I think. One of the biggest issue for many zergs is the even more increased pure defensive play style (since hots) while other races got more and more (easy) allins and harrass options (mothership core combined with any allin makes it even stronger and easier to execute than before ...)
The next point is that terran actually needs no gas. The only thing they need gas for is medivacs and upgrades/tech. While all races are limited by gas and the strength of an army one can buid is determined basically by the amount of gas (colossus, templar, infestor, ultralisk, baneling ...) terran is not. Why? Marines are the stronges unit in the game due to the fact that they are 1. ranged, 2. anti air, 3. lowest tier unit available, 4. THEY COST NO GAS. Maurauders cost 25 gas, well these few maurauders mixed in dont change anything. Mines cost (almost) no gas either! So well terran is limited by minerals. Early tripple OC greedy but safe play with tripple mules does everything for terran.
This is btw the major imbalance in the matchup nowadays. TERRAN IS LIMITED BY MINERALS ONLY WHILE Z IS LIMITED BY GAS!
A good way to fix this is to just increase gas costs for terrans. I have not thought this thru completely so don't blame me for what I write now its just an example:
widow mine costs change to 25/75
maurauder costs increase to 100/50
hellbats should cost some gas too (transformation & actually building them)
Why is this gas thing an issue?
You can't force the terran into anything, cause he needs no gas. If you do a roach harrass/allin/semi allin the terran builds 1-2 maurauder and is fine. It does not even throw him back to defens against it (well yes it costs 25-50 gas). Then you come with mutalisks, defending against it costs no gas (turrets, marines, mines) and so on. Terrans usually bank several thousands of gas in the lategame, not even gathering it anymore because it has no impact on the game result.
To repell terran attacks the zerg needs alot of gas. Many terrans argue baneling is similar to the mine, but it is not in fact. Banelings cost alot of gas compared to what they do (explode and being dead after). When you kill a group of 20 marines with 5 banelings and 10 zerglings this trade was almost cost efficient for the terran cause zerg units die anyway in the engagement and zerg sacraficed gas for killing mineral only units and minerals are by far less limiting you as a terran player than gas is limiting you as a zerg.
Here is the next problem: zerg can't kill gas units of terran at all. As the terran basically only uses gas for medivacs and they boost/fly away from any battles easily terran does not even have to rebuild these only gas units he needs. Even if zerg kills them it would not limit the terran by making him rebuild a gas costy unit but forcing him to spend another 100 minerals that could be 2 marines cause there is really nothing terran needs that costs any gas until very lategame (raven+bc).
So guys, let me tell you this is my opinion. No reason to flame at all. ZvT has major imbalances right now due to the 2 things that I described (patchhistory impact & terran needs no gas).
Only the gas thing is enaugh to talk of major imbalances. Just imagine you can't damage your opponent by killing his gas intensive units. This needs to be fixed.
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+ Show Spoiler +[quoteYou can't force the terran into anything, cause he needs no gas. If you do a roach harrass/allin/semi allin the terran builds 1-2 maurauder and is fine. It does not even throw him back to defense against it (well yes it costs 25-50 gas). Then you come with mutalisks, defending against it costs no gas (turrets, marines, mines) and so on. Terrans usually bank several thousands of gas in the lategame, not even gathering it anymore because it has no impact on the game result.]
As a Terran player I personally think this is a double edged sword, its really advantageous in some ways like what you mentioned but it also means that all your bases our less effecent, were the maximum mining potentile of a base for zerg includes the gas the maximum mining potential of a base for Terran realy doesn't since gas has such a low value that past 4 mining gas you don't even need it in alot of cases. Also minerals are so important to terran that most of our gas dump units hurt us alot in the mineral department take ghosts, they cost more mins then gas in our least gas heavy match up, TvP this means that where a protoss can dump 1000 gas into ht's terran has trouble getting rid of our gas and really the best answer we have is take bases at a faster rate then we reach full mineral saturation in order to mitigate the disadvantage of each base providing less potential mining. Mules do help this probelm some what as we can on full saturation mine our important resource faster then other races but it does not aleviate the fact that if we get shutdown from getting a fourth vs a 3 basing opponent, especially protoss we just cant go 3 base-3 base because we will blow our potential mining while the p still has a ton of gas mixed into his. This can also pose a problem in certain tvz situations, often t has trouble getting a 4th base down against a zerg especially if they get hive tech out before the 4th is out. This will put t in situation were they have to just hurl their armies at z and hope z dies before the third is mined out. Also when other races are behind on mins often they can dump heavy into gas units since you can still mine alot of gas even if you took hard hits to your econ. One thing i see alot of good zerg like hyun do if they get behind is just flood gas into infestors, this is not as viable for t since we have to build alot of infestructure independent of our core barracks building to get to our one true gas dump,ravens. So yes T does often trade mineral units for gas units but that trade is not as good as say a zerg trading mineral units for protoss gas units, because every mineral is more important to t than it is to p or z.
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On April 18 2013 07:34 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 06:55 convention wrote:
What is this thread coming to? It use to actually talk about balance. Now two consecutive posts complain about how strong early aggression is because you should be able to hold it off without know (then why would anyone ever all-in if you can always stop it? The answer is you wouldn't, so the game would be a 15 minute turtle fest). Then the next post complains about the game being a turtlefest. WoL was a turtle fest, it was boring. HotS is definitely no longer a turtle-fest. And if you can't all-in someone doing a greedy build, then the game would become a turtlefest again.
Also, there were all-ins in BW too. Allins that you couldnt do anything about. And there were all-ins in WC3, again, that you couldn't stop unless you knew ahead of time. That's why you scout the opponent, that's why it's entertaining to watch. Finally, 1 hero v 3 hero and 50 food supply? I dont care how good the other person is, the 50 food/3 hero will win every single time. No micro saves you there.
Let's go back to discussing balance rather than "allins are stupid, they weren't there in other games" when they are in every single RTS game. For example, to me it still seems like it is very hard for protoss to get a third base up in PvT on most maps because of turbo-vacs. I'm worried that we'll have the same constraint with WoL maps had because of PvZ and protoss having a hard time with thirds. Something like third bases will have to be really close to the main and second base, or protoss will be in trouble again. This thread has sucked major ass for a good while now. Nobody who posts here actually seems to understand the game so it devolves into people either 1) yelling "mine OP" and suggesting some outlandish "fix" that would make the unit completely useless or 2) just theorizing amount random stuff such as fundamental game design that has no relevance to the games current form or balance for that matter. I don't think the mods care either, so this thread pretty much only exists to keep the crazies in one place.
Widow Mines *are* OP. I'm sorry, but them's the facts, and they will get nerfed.
It doesn't take a genius to see why WM are OP. It really doesn't. But it does take willful ignorance and essentially sticking your fingers in your ears to argue that they're fine.
They will most likely get a significant splash damage nerf which should take them down a notch.
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On April 18 2013 10:42 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 07:34 Bagi wrote:On April 18 2013 06:55 convention wrote:
What is this thread coming to? It use to actually talk about balance. Now two consecutive posts complain about how strong early aggression is because you should be able to hold it off without know (then why would anyone ever all-in if you can always stop it? The answer is you wouldn't, so the game would be a 15 minute turtle fest). Then the next post complains about the game being a turtlefest. WoL was a turtle fest, it was boring. HotS is definitely no longer a turtle-fest. And if you can't all-in someone doing a greedy build, then the game would become a turtlefest again.
Also, there were all-ins in BW too. Allins that you couldnt do anything about. And there were all-ins in WC3, again, that you couldn't stop unless you knew ahead of time. That's why you scout the opponent, that's why it's entertaining to watch. Finally, 1 hero v 3 hero and 50 food supply? I dont care how good the other person is, the 50 food/3 hero will win every single time. No micro saves you there.
Let's go back to discussing balance rather than "allins are stupid, they weren't there in other games" when they are in every single RTS game. For example, to me it still seems like it is very hard for protoss to get a third base up in PvT on most maps because of turbo-vacs. I'm worried that we'll have the same constraint with WoL maps had because of PvZ and protoss having a hard time with thirds. Something like third bases will have to be really close to the main and second base, or protoss will be in trouble again. This thread has sucked major ass for a good while now. Nobody who posts here actually seems to understand the game so it devolves into people either 1) yelling "mine OP" and suggesting some outlandish "fix" that would make the unit completely useless or 2) just theorizing amount random stuff such as fundamental game design that has no relevance to the games current form or balance for that matter. I don't think the mods care either, so this thread pretty much only exists to keep the crazies in one place. Widow Mines *are* OP. I'm sorry, but them's the facts, and they will get nerfed. It doesn't take a genius to see why WM are OP. It really doesn't. But it does take willful ignorance and essentially sticking your fingers in your ears to argue that they're fine. They will most likely get a significant splash damage nerf which should take them down a notch.
I don't think, mines are good I think. What will be nerf is probably Hellbat and/or Medivac Boost. Recently, Medivac became less "op", zergs dealing with them pretty well because of mutas. Hellbat is just OP for their cost but well. Wait & see.
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well yes its a double edged thing to a certain extend at least. Though it is not that much disadvantagous as you put it.
" were the maximum mining potentile of a base for zerg includes the gas the maximum mining potential of a base"
sure but if you don't actually need gas its not a disadvantage at all but an advantage (need less workers to satisfy)
sure it is a problem (gamedesign) that terran cant get rid of gas when needed, but on the other hand minerals is not really a limiting factor: minerals are ubiquitary and gas is scarce. Minerals are of the same importance of other races. It is not like protoss or zerg can focus solely on gas expensive units and thats it.
The main advantage of terrans having loads of banked gas is this: when terran loses a unit that costs mins+gas the terran actually only loses the mins + building time while zerg loses mins + gas + building time. So killing a medivac costs the terran 100 minerals, losing a muta costs the zerg 100mins+100gas.
Obviously this is unarguably a matter of bad game design AND a major imbalance in comparing 2 races with each other that rely on the same game mechanics (building buildings (cost mins + gas), units (cost mins + gas(terran units cost only mins)), gathering minerals, gathering gas).
As any other race (a protoss that goes high templar must delay his colossus or air) terran does not suffer from this. Therefore fighting vs terran units that actually cost gas (medivac, viking) is theoretically always less cost efficient than it should as the terran does not suffer from losing a gas unit but suffers not more than other races from losing mineral units.
And yes terrans spam marines as zerg spams zerglings. Just the difference is the marine is actually the best, cheapest, highest dps multi purpose unit ingame and zergling is not.
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On April 18 2013 11:08 LSN wrote:
well yes its a double edged thing to a certain extend at least. Though it is not that much disadvantagous as you put it.
" were the maximum mining potentile of a base for zerg includes the gas the maximum mining potential of a base"
sure but if you don't actually need gas its not a disadvantage at all but an advantage (need less workers to satisfy)
sure it is a problem (gamedesign) that terran cant get rid of gas when needed, but on the other hand minerals is not really a limiting factor: minerals are ubiquitary and gas is scarce. Minerals are of the same importance of other races. It is not like protoss or zerg can focus solely on gas expensive units and thats it.
The main advantage of terrans having loads of banked gas is this: when terran loses a unit that costs mins+gas the terran actually only loses the mins + building time while zerg loses mins + gas + building time. So killing a medivac costs the terran 100 minerals, losing a muta costs the zerg 100mins+100gas.
Obviously this is unarguably a matter of bad game design AND a major imbalance in comparing 2 races with each other that rely on the same game mechanics (building buildings (cost mins + gas), units (cost mins + gas(terran units cost only mins)), gathering minerals, gathering gas).
As any other race (a protoss that goes high templar must delay his colossus or air) terran does not suffer from this. Therefore fighting vs terran units that actually cost gas (medivac, viking) is theoretically always less cost efficient than it should as the terran does not suffer from losing a gas unit but suffers not more than other races from losing mineral units.
There is a flaw in your reasoning.
Terran can't switch from factory to air that easily - Terrans have to spend gas to build extra facilities. While more streamlined, mech and air require separate attack upgrades. Blue flame, if going mech heavy, would not be easy possible if Terran commits to starport tech early. If you make more starports, and produce from them non-stop, you won't have enough gas to get a high amount of factory units (except maybe much later in game, but by then the same applies to the Protoss).
Banking gas happens when the Terran goes into bio-heavy style. That gas is often used to switch into Battlecruisers. When they don't have enough minerals to make that transition, thus you see like 200 mins, 5000 gas, it means the Terran is losing his bio units too fast to build enough mineral bank for transition because his play was not sufficient.
So yes it hurts to lose gas units, why? Because those units costs minerals too! I would agree with you if medivacs cost 0 minerals and 100 gas. Terrans need those minerals so badly - to make the BC tech.
Just because it doesn't hurt Zergs or Protoss to lose minerals in a gas-heavy style, does not mean that it doesn't hurt a bio-heavy style. In mech-heavy styles, you will often see the opposite - banking tons of minerals, and not enough gas.
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On April 18 2013 10:42 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 07:34 Bagi wrote:On April 18 2013 06:55 convention wrote:
What is this thread coming to? It use to actually talk about balance. Now two consecutive posts complain about how strong early aggression is because you should be able to hold it off without know (then why would anyone ever all-in if you can always stop it? The answer is you wouldn't, so the game would be a 15 minute turtle fest). Then the next post complains about the game being a turtlefest. WoL was a turtle fest, it was boring. HotS is definitely no longer a turtle-fest. And if you can't all-in someone doing a greedy build, then the game would become a turtlefest again.
Also, there were all-ins in BW too. Allins that you couldnt do anything about. And there were all-ins in WC3, again, that you couldn't stop unless you knew ahead of time. That's why you scout the opponent, that's why it's entertaining to watch. Finally, 1 hero v 3 hero and 50 food supply? I dont care how good the other person is, the 50 food/3 hero will win every single time. No micro saves you there.
Let's go back to discussing balance rather than "allins are stupid, they weren't there in other games" when they are in every single RTS game. For example, to me it still seems like it is very hard for protoss to get a third base up in PvT on most maps because of turbo-vacs. I'm worried that we'll have the same constraint with WoL maps had because of PvZ and protoss having a hard time with thirds. Something like third bases will have to be really close to the main and second base, or protoss will be in trouble again. This thread has sucked major ass for a good while now. Nobody who posts here actually seems to understand the game so it devolves into people either 1) yelling "mine OP" and suggesting some outlandish "fix" that would make the unit completely useless or 2) just theorizing amount random stuff such as fundamental game design that has no relevance to the games current form or balance for that matter. I don't think the mods care either, so this thread pretty much only exists to keep the crazies in one place. Widow Mines *are* OP. I'm sorry, but them's the facts, and they will get nerfed. It doesn't take a genius to see why WM are OP. It really doesn't. But it does take willful ignorance and essentially sticking your fingers in your ears to argue that they're fine. They will most likely get a significant splash damage nerf which should take them down a notch.
Nobody who posts here actually seems to understand the game so it devolves into people either 1) yelling "mine OP" ...
Lmfao, case in point. There isn't one single argument in your post to back up your claim. All you do is attack others sarcastically for being people who cannot "see why WM are OP". You restate yourself, "It really doesn't", as if that makes your point more valid. Then more insults of "willful ignorance" and "essentially sticking your fingers in your ears...".
Not a single thing in your post tells people why it's OP. You sir, are the proud recipient of TL Balance Thread Doofus award.
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yes terran needs gas for tech. TvZ is not about metal so this is not relevant what you are saying about metal. Sure terran needs gas for tech as any other race too.
If a zerg builds a spire and some mutalisks it is very difficult for the zerg to get some infestors at the same time.
This is what you basically say about terran.
The issue comes up at the time where terran has the tech and builds bio (yes TvZ is actually always bio) and does not need any more gas besides upgrades and medivacs which very soon results in terran has as much gas to spend as he wants.
"So yes it hurts to lose gas units, why? Because those units costs minerals too! I would agree with you if medivacs cost 0 minerals and 100 gas. Terrans need those minerals so badly - to make the BC tech."
lie/wrong
what is the percentage of games that go to bc/raven? Almost irrelevant
second: even if games go to raven/bc losses of a few hundred gas does not change anything for the terran that has a bank of 2k-5k gas. Almost irrelevant
As I pointed out above in many situations terran loses only the minerals for this unit while zerg always loses both ressources. Of course I'd never say that gas is never relevant for terran in no single games. On average it is not.
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On April 18 2013 11:38 LSN wrote:
yes terran needs gas for tech. TvZ is not about metal so this is not relevant what you are saying about metal. Sure terran needs gas for tech as any other race too.
If a zerg builds a spire and some mutalisks it is very difficult for the zerg to get some infestors at the same time.
This is what you basically say about terran.
The issue comes up at the time where terran has the tech and builds bio (yes TvZ is actually always bio) and does not need any more gas besides upgrades and medivacs which very soon results in terran has as much gas to spend as he wants.
And not enough minerals. Those gas units need minerals too, don't forget. If the Terran is ahead, he can do whatever he wants. If he's even, or behind, he will be passive or vulnerable when trying to bank enough minerals for a switch.
Even if Terran has 5k gas, if he has 500 minerals, he can only build 5 medivacs! Not whatever he wants!
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"And yes terrans spam marines as zerg spams zerglings. Just the difference is the marine is actually the best, cheapest, highest dps multi purpose unit ingame and zergling is not."
Widow mines mean that if you don't continually carry a detector then you risk losing your entire army, you cannot push forward with reckless abandon like the race is designed to do.
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On April 18 2013 11:46 Crankyhobo wrote:
"And yes terrans spam marines as zerg spams zerglings. Just the difference is the marine is actually the best, cheapest, highest dps multi purpose unit ingame and zergling is not."
Widow mines mean that if you don't continually carry a detector then you risk losing your entire army, you cannot push forward with reckless abandon like the race is designed to do. \
Did you just seriously try to argue that playing badly is designed into the Zerg race?
....
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On April 18 2013 11:46 Crankyhobo wrote:
"And yes terrans spam marines as zerg spams zerglings. Just the difference is the marine is actually the best, cheapest, highest dps multi purpose unit ingame and zergling is not."
Widow mines mean that if you don't continually carry a detector then you risk losing your entire army, you cannot push forward with reckless abandon like the race is designed to do.
I wish I could spam 200 marines in 50s in late game when my army is getting crushed because of badplay.
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EPT
