EPTThey became rare to the point where it was a surprise to see them during the last few months of WoL. It's not relevant to my point, in any case: mid/late-game all-ins with scv's eventually were mostly figured out by the protoss, but in HotS the timings are off and those attacks are more powerful as a result. We will have to wait and see whether protoss can figure out the new timings, instead of just claiming "imbalance!" to start out with.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 458
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
They became rare to the point where it was a surprise to see them during the last few months of WoL. It's not relevant to my point, in any case: mid/late-game all-ins with scv's eventually were mostly figured out by the protoss, but in HotS the timings are off and those attacks are more powerful as a result. We will have to wait and see whether protoss can figure out the new timings, instead of just claiming "imbalance!" to start out with. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11077 Posts
On April 18 2013 20:37 Rabiator wrote: It is kinda debatable if a unit which attacks directly is better than a unit which attacks through a proxy unit that. With the kill speed in SC2 it is rather dangerous to be a capital ship, but it is a playstyle difference. One has an achilles heel against Protoss and the other can be chronoboosted out. Just to make it clear: all I am saying is that the decision which unit is better is less easy than you make it seem. Higher dps doesnt always "win" over lower dps, because you still have to keep your units alive. Personally I would say the decision is based mostly on your personal playstyle preference. I feel like chronoboosted out is a misleading statement. A lot of toss late game units are designed to force the usage of chronoboost to come out at anythin resembling a comparable timeframe with Terran and zerg. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Carrier http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Battlecruiser http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Brood_Lord http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ultralisk_(Heart_of_the_Swarm) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Colossus http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Thor_(Heart_of_the_Swarm) The protoss macro mechanic is probably the weakest of them all. Upgrade speed/cost advantage is mitigated by the sheer level of teching necessary to deal with easy and cheap compositions by the other races. I don't know if we think there's a problem with the speed at which toss can pull out clutch units but I think it's worthwhile to consider how mediocre the macro ability is in the context of limited viability. | ||
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baldgye
United Kingdom1103 Posts
Kinda beyond that upgrades are the only thing you can really use them for that's meaningful... If your playing a PvZ (for eg) and you manage to kill there army while saving most of yours and then they tech switch killing all your expensive units, chrono isn't going to help you really recover or tech switch etc it just stops you dying instantly... unlike injects and MULES chrono seems to have little effect/purpose unless your hitting some insane timing ... (just my humble opinions that I'm happy to be wrong about) | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On April 19 2013 04:04 baldgye wrote: Chronoboost seems like something that can only be used to really great effects on timed attacks or all-in's... possibly why Parting's immortal all in and like, every MC build are able to hit such crazy times. Kinda beyond that upgrades are the only thing you can really use them for that's meaningful... If your playing a PvZ (for eg) and you manage to kill there army while saving most of yours and then they tech switch killing all your expensive units, chrono isn't going to help you really recover or tech switch etc it just stops you dying instantly... unlike injects and MULES chrono seems to have little effect/purpose unless your hitting some insane timing ... (just my humble opinions that I'm happy to be wrong about) If anyone cares, here are some old threads about chronoboost: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=112119¤tpage=All http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108753¤tpage=All I think it's fun to read what TL had to say about the ability before competitive SC2. :o | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On April 19 2013 03:56 Sabu113 wrote: I feel like chronoboosted out is a misleading statement. A lot of toss late game units are designed to force the usage of chronoboost to come out at anythin resembling a comparable timeframe with Terran and zerg. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Carrier http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Battlecruiser http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Brood_Lord http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ultralisk_(Heart_of_the_Swarm) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Colossus http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Thor_(Heart_of_the_Swarm) The protoss macro mechanic is probably the weakest of them all. Upgrade speed/cost advantage is mitigated by the sheer level of teching necessary to deal with easy and cheap compositions by the other races. I don't know if we think there's a problem with the speed at which toss can pull out clutch units but I think it's worthwhile to consider how mediocre the macro ability is in the context of limited viability. It also kinda helps that a single colossus is worth a lot more than a single thor/ultralisk. | ||
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Dudasc
Brazil286 Posts
IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
On April 19 2013 05:48 Dudasc wrote: this game is so "well" balanced that no zerg made it through the WCS qualifiers. Looks like all the accomplished zergs (targa, xlord, etc) lost to "big names" like Siw and Bunny IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data WCS Korea qualifiers. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 19 2013 05:48 Dudasc wrote: this game is so "well" balanced that no zerg made it through the WCS qualifiers. Looks like all the accomplished zergs (targa, xlord, etc) lost to "big names" like Siw and Bunny IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously? Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On April 18 2013 20:04 Big J wrote: as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else? Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote: Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11077 Posts
On April 19 2013 05:42 Bagi wrote: It also kinda helps that a single colossus is worth a lot more than a single thor/ultralisk. A qualified yes ( for the collosus; the carrier is clear cut; Immortal?). Collosi need buffer to die for it to do damage. Thors and ultras are meaty. Toss needs certain power units to do anything ultras and thors can be cherries on the cake. Maybe an archon is the better example but then we'll argue about frontloaded buildtimes. I just think it's a bit off to talk about chrono boost as a unique racial edge when it kinda evens the playing field in production time. It doesn't give a unique advantage ( I can bring my power units onto the field faster than you if I have chrono about). It's more that (Hey I have extra chrono that I need to use to get these units out at a comparable rate with my opponent). Mules mean that a terran is always goin to outmine you on equal bases (Mules don't block regular workers from the same patch). Inject Larva just amplifies the zerg ability and gives them a lot more durability because Larva isn't as precious a resource. Chronoboost- eh usable to hit a certain tech timing early on (or keep par on workers) but even those timings have been tweaked to limit the abilities outright power. I don't think the depth that people are salivating in the old threads linked above was ever really realised because Blizz pre-nerfed the build times of what you would use chrono on. I suppose it makes sense in that toss spends a lot of time unlocking things but combined with the long build times it's more "Hey you have to do this" rather than "Hey here's a unique edge". Ofc, it might have gone with the original design for toss to be expensive, beefy and take forever to come out but be durable. Not sure what rejig I would want because that would be explicitly to strengthen protoss timings that we've spent a lot of time nerfing down and putting power units out onto the field faster lategame when combined with the mass warpin destroys the value of the terran power composition. Meh, I'll settle for agreeing that chrono is a mediocre macro mechanic as it is now. Ghost, Infestor, High Templar + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + Hey! I saw myself in that thread :D | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote: Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
 First everyone thought speedvac was OP, then it was mines... gsl/mlg proved both wrong.. and now its freekin hellbats because of Code s EU... next week it is think the new ravens... noxt month it is the new bc that is op... plz stop this shit guys... | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E&usp=sharing Please keep in mind that the results aren't final, it is possible that I missed a few games also, the stats will be double checked before the full release in early may. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote: Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote: You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Read the fucking thread. On April 19 2013 06:11 TheDwf wrote: So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously? Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On April 19 2013 06:51 plogamer wrote: Read the fucking thread. Why are you feeding me some BS about Zergs. This is about Protoss not doing anything. Way to cuss and then attempt a red herring. You're a moron. I think its pretty obvious your ability to argue is pretty weak. You keep referencing Zerg in a discussion about Protoss. User was warned for this post | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On April 19 2013 06:46 SlixSC wrote: I have updated the win rates with all of the recent results. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E&usp=sharing Please keep in mind that the results aren't final, it is possible that I missed a few games also, the stats will be double checked before the full release in early may. I have 12 Terran wins to 7 Protoss wins so far in Code S, and almost twice as many games from MLG as you do. You have 11-7 for Terran, I have 23-14. I also have 12-18 for Acer Teamstory Cup. | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On April 19 2013 07:18 Wingblade wrote: I have 12 Terran wins to 7 Protoss wins so far in Code S, and almost twice as many games from MLG as you do. You have 11-7 for Terran, I have 23-14. I also have 12-18 for Acer Teamstory Cup. The stats are april only, pretty sure that explains most of the difference. It's also possible that we both made mistakes and missed a couple games here or there, that's why the stats will be double checked and independently verified before the full release in early may. | ||
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