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On April 19 2013 12:20 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 10:00 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 19 2013 09:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
They work because Protoss can't/aren't taking early thirds and the 5th/6th gases which gives them the tech they need. Smart WoL builds like Parting's fast 3rd Nexus with an 8 gate pressure have died out, because Protoss players are terrified about spreading out to three locations, perhaps there'll be some figuring out to do, perhaps it's just a reality of a changed matchup.
Creator is a good example of a player whose razor-tight defensive styles, cutting as many units as possible were a hallmark of his PvT, and it's just not really working in HoTs thus far.
Timings are in flux and Protoss are getting flummoxed by this. Imbalance? No, perhaps not, but let's not make out that Protoss players are dumb, or that the matchup hasn't changed to reflect new units from the other races. It is way simpler then this. If the attack hits before storm then Terran wins almost every time. If Toss get storm out in time then they will win pretty much every time. I doubt any Terran player goes into their match preparing to do that. It is a reactionary thing based off how much units Protoss has and their storm timing. Show nested quote + Startale Bomber
Q: You performed a few SCV-pulled, all-in type rushes against Creator.
A: I had confidence that I would win with those timings, but I made a big micro mistakes against him in the first game. It's a timing that Protoss shouldn't be able to stop. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406280Late game PvT is on a timer as well. The terran ultra composition is better so toss need to be aggressive and get engagements before too much of the binary counter builds up (enough vikings or ghosts that destroy archons). So it's not quite that desperate but the edge terran has is almost fully available entering into the midgame and dissipates as the game reaches the late game and toss has both forms of splash available and can start incorporating expensive units like immortals an archons into the composition.
I don't think terran ultra composition is better than toss.
Depends what do you mean by ultra to be honest, SkyToss atm is better than skyterran
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Northern Ireland23767 Posts
Let's continue to discuss compositions that never occur rather than look at how pro games ACTUALLY function. Good approach
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On April 19 2013 13:17 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 07:25 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:04 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:51 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote:On April 18 2013 20:04 Big J wrote:
[quote]
as long as their 2013 65% GSL winrate in TvP continues, why try anything else? Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Read the fucking thread. On April 19 2013 06:11 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 05:48 Dudasc wrote:
this game is so "well" balanced that no zerg made it through the WCS qualifiers. Looks like all the accomplished zergs (targa, xlord, etc) lost to "big names" like Siw and Bunny
IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously? Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? Why are you feeding me some BS about Zergs. This is about Protoss not doing anything. Way to cuss and then attempt a red herring. You're a moron. I think its pretty obvious your ability to argue is pretty weak. You keep referencing Zerg in a discussion about Protoss. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there.
Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs.
You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame.
Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you?
So, Terrans are advancing and it's proof that Protoss can't advance because of Terrans. Whereas Zergs advancing is .. ? Nothing? I guess all Zergs just forfeit when they are matched against a Protoss. But better yet, what happens when a good Protoss gets taken down by a good Zerg? Then all protoss representation goes into shit without Terrans lifting a finger. To blame it all on Terrans, bravo. I mean, look at the last GSL games. Getting taken out with SCV all-in when Protoss has access to forcefields and collosi. Those were some bad plays. And yet that gets no mention. Naw, you're right. Definite proof that Terran is OP. RorO didn't play against any Protoss when he advanced. soO lost 2-0 to sOs in his only ZvP when he advanced. KangHo didn't have a Protoss in his group. Shine 2-0ed Squirtle in his only ZvP, Symbol didn't play a P. Soulkey didn't have a Protoss in his group. So actually, Zerg hasn't been responsible for hardly any of the Protoss defeats. And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time. The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy. Yeah, forcefields are hard. And while the force-fields are holding off the SCVs; yeah, selecting just the collosi to attack rather than whole army is hard. Once the SCV are fried, refreshing forcefields are hard. Using the time bought to warp in more units, finish upgrades, yeah, hard. It's insanely hard, No denying it. But they're Code S. They can do this kind of shit.
Protoss is the one race that has never ever been dominant, and has spent the most amount of time with the lowest win rates. Surely protoss players just suck. Or maybe, just maybe protoss is the weakest race and deserve some sort of buff to be able to not have the perpetual 45% winrate we saw all throughout WoL and so far in HotS. I will almost guarantee you and everyone else that thinks similarly has never actually played protoss and tried to forcefield off sections of the terran army. FF range is small, and sentries are very expensive. And if you really just attack with collosi, then the maurders that you trapped near your army just stim in and kill the collosi. Or do you think that toss will force field everything out and somehow terran is going to sit there?
Do people really think toss players are just bad? How about we nerf the marine to do 1 damage, then when terrans start losing we can all say how terrans are just bad, not that they have a weak race.
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On April 19 2013 14:25 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 13:17 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 07:25 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:04 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:51 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:15 plogamer wrote:
[quote]
Here's another big idiot of the thread. Quoting percentiles when the sample size is miniscule tiny.
Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Read the fucking thread. On April 19 2013 06:11 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 05:48 Dudasc wrote:
this game is so "well" balanced that no zerg made it through the WCS qualifiers. Looks like all the accomplished zergs (targa, xlord, etc) lost to "big names" like Siw and Bunny
IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously? Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? Why are you feeding me some BS about Zergs. This is about Protoss not doing anything. Way to cuss and then attempt a red herring. You're a moron. I think its pretty obvious your ability to argue is pretty weak. You keep referencing Zerg in a discussion about Protoss. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there.
Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs.
You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame.
Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you?
So, Terrans are advancing and it's proof that Protoss can't advance because of Terrans. Whereas Zergs advancing is .. ? Nothing? I guess all Zergs just forfeit when they are matched against a Protoss. But better yet, what happens when a good Protoss gets taken down by a good Zerg? Then all protoss representation goes into shit without Terrans lifting a finger. To blame it all on Terrans, bravo. I mean, look at the last GSL games. Getting taken out with SCV all-in when Protoss has access to forcefields and collosi. Those were some bad plays. And yet that gets no mention. Naw, you're right. Definite proof that Terran is OP. RorO didn't play against any Protoss when he advanced. soO lost 2-0 to sOs in his only ZvP when he advanced. KangHo didn't have a Protoss in his group. Shine 2-0ed Squirtle in his only ZvP, Symbol didn't play a P. Soulkey didn't have a Protoss in his group. So actually, Zerg hasn't been responsible for hardly any of the Protoss defeats. And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time. The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy. Yeah, forcefields are hard. And while the force-fields are holding off the SCVs; yeah, selecting just the collosi to attack rather than whole army is hard. Once the SCV are fried, refreshing forcefields are hard. Using the time bought to warp in more units, finish upgrades, yeah, hard. It's insanely hard, No denying it. But they're Code S. They can do this kind of shit. Protoss is the one race that has never ever been dominant, and has spent the most amount of time with the lowest win rates. Surely protoss players just suck. Or maybe, just maybe protoss is the weakest race and deserve some sort of buff to be able to not have the perpetual 45% winrate we saw all throughout WoL and so far in HotS. I will almost guarantee you and everyone else that thinks similarly has never actually played protoss and tried to forcefield off sections of the terran army. FF range is small, and sentries are very expensive. And if you really just attack with collosi, then the maurders that you trapped near your army just stim in and kill the collosi. Or do you think that toss will force field everything out and somehow terran is going to sit there? Do people really think toss players are just bad? How about we nerf the marine to do 1 damage, then when terrans start losing we can all say how terrans are just bad, not that they have a weak race.
Why do people always make up statistics when making balance arguments?
Statistically speaking Zerg is by far the weakest race, by far.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E&usp=sharing
How you could possibly justify a protoss buff using statistics is beyond me.
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Northern Ireland23767 Posts
Go watch some games instead of relying on statistics and make up your own mind.
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On April 19 2013 10:46 dirtydurb82 wrote:
Two things:
Problem: late game Protoss Air + HT is unbelieveably good against zerg. Vipers can use yoink ability, but are often slaughtered by HT before it amounts to much.
Solution: Vipers' blinding cloud works against air.
Side effects: could be OP against Terran, when used in conjuntion with Fungal.
Also, metagame:
The future of Zerg in HOTS is the Swarm Host. BLing not good against WM. Roach Hydra not good against anything (nice try Blizzard!) Toss Air crushes Zerg Air. The problem with Swarm Hosts is they are incredibly difficult to micro when the enemy is in range, so pros are scared of them right now...
The problem with whiners is they only seek solutions in nerfing and buffing, before seeking for possibilities within what is given to them (current hots). I have seen starbuck crack tossair with viperpull+infestors so that tempests kills tempests. ofcourse i am not saying this is the way to go, but atleast he tries new tactics that seem to work for him within hots. Its time u stop thinking in the mindset of buffing and nerving and seek out new tactics...
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On April 19 2013 14:51 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 14:25 convention wrote:On April 19 2013 13:17 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 07:25 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:04 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:51 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:
[quote]
Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Read the fucking thread. On April 19 2013 06:11 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 05:48 Dudasc wrote:
this game is so "well" balanced that no zerg made it through the WCS qualifiers. Looks like all the accomplished zergs (targa, xlord, etc) lost to "big names" like Siw and Bunny
IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously? Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? Why are you feeding me some BS about Zergs. This is about Protoss not doing anything. Way to cuss and then attempt a red herring. You're a moron. I think its pretty obvious your ability to argue is pretty weak. You keep referencing Zerg in a discussion about Protoss. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there.
Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs.
You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame.
Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you?
So, Terrans are advancing and it's proof that Protoss can't advance because of Terrans. Whereas Zergs advancing is .. ? Nothing? I guess all Zergs just forfeit when they are matched against a Protoss. But better yet, what happens when a good Protoss gets taken down by a good Zerg? Then all protoss representation goes into shit without Terrans lifting a finger. To blame it all on Terrans, bravo. I mean, look at the last GSL games. Getting taken out with SCV all-in when Protoss has access to forcefields and collosi. Those were some bad plays. And yet that gets no mention. Naw, you're right. Definite proof that Terran is OP. RorO didn't play against any Protoss when he advanced. soO lost 2-0 to sOs in his only ZvP when he advanced. KangHo didn't have a Protoss in his group. Shine 2-0ed Squirtle in his only ZvP, Symbol didn't play a P. Soulkey didn't have a Protoss in his group. So actually, Zerg hasn't been responsible for hardly any of the Protoss defeats. And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time. The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy. Yeah, forcefields are hard. And while the force-fields are holding off the SCVs; yeah, selecting just the collosi to attack rather than whole army is hard. Once the SCV are fried, refreshing forcefields are hard. Using the time bought to warp in more units, finish upgrades, yeah, hard. It's insanely hard, No denying it. But they're Code S. They can do this kind of shit. Protoss is the one race that has never ever been dominant, and has spent the most amount of time with the lowest win rates. Surely protoss players just suck. Or maybe, just maybe protoss is the weakest race and deserve some sort of buff to be able to not have the perpetual 45% winrate we saw all throughout WoL and so far in HotS. I will almost guarantee you and everyone else that thinks similarly has never actually played protoss and tried to forcefield off sections of the terran army. FF range is small, and sentries are very expensive. And if you really just attack with collosi, then the maurders that you trapped near your army just stim in and kill the collosi. Or do you think that toss will force field everything out and somehow terran is going to sit there? Do people really think toss players are just bad? How about we nerf the marine to do 1 damage, then when terrans start losing we can all say how terrans are just bad, not that they have a weak race. Why do people always make up statistics when making balance arguments? Statistically speaking Zerg is by far the weakest race, by far. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E&usp=sharingHow you could possibly justify a protoss buff using statistics is beyond me.
Well one thing has been proven by this topic: Everyone is right if you believe the statistics they bring. Since there have been stats posted to tell for every race that they are the weakest.
For example if we are going to buff zerg/toss, how are you going to prevent that on the 'normal' levels they won't dominate even more? In any and every game players are pulled towards whatever is strongest, and looking at SC2ranks it is pretty clear that between gold and GM zerg/toss are most played races, and terran least played.
And sorry but that spreadsheet lacks any kind of statistical significance. If I delete a single tournament: WCS quals (for RO32 and later), then suddenly terran is just as 'weak' as zerg is. Not to mention it is a bit weird if you want to base balance on purely the highest levels to pick a tournament specifically for people who weren't good enough to be chosen already for the WCS.
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On April 19 2013 13:26 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 12:20 Sabu113 wrote:On April 19 2013 10:00 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 19 2013 09:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
They work because Protoss can't/aren't taking early thirds and the 5th/6th gases which gives them the tech they need. Smart WoL builds like Parting's fast 3rd Nexus with an 8 gate pressure have died out, because Protoss players are terrified about spreading out to three locations, perhaps there'll be some figuring out to do, perhaps it's just a reality of a changed matchup.
Creator is a good example of a player whose razor-tight defensive styles, cutting as many units as possible were a hallmark of his PvT, and it's just not really working in HoTs thus far.
Timings are in flux and Protoss are getting flummoxed by this. Imbalance? No, perhaps not, but let's not make out that Protoss players are dumb, or that the matchup hasn't changed to reflect new units from the other races. It is way simpler then this. If the attack hits before storm then Terran wins almost every time. If Toss get storm out in time then they will win pretty much every time. I doubt any Terran player goes into their match preparing to do that. It is a reactionary thing based off how much units Protoss has and their storm timing. Startale Bomber
Q: You performed a few SCV-pulled, all-in type rushes against Creator.
A: I had confidence that I would win with those timings, but I made a big micro mistakes against him in the first game. It's a timing that Protoss shouldn't be able to stop. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406280Late game PvT is on a timer as well. The terran ultra composition is better so toss need to be aggressive and get engagements before too much of the binary counter builds up (enough vikings or ghosts that destroy archons). So it's not quite that desperate but the edge terran has is almost fully available entering into the midgame and dissipates as the game reaches the late game and toss has both forms of splash available and can start incorporating expensive units like immortals an archons into the composition. I don't think terran ultra composition is better than toss. Depends what do you mean by ultra to be honest, SkyToss atm is better than skyterran
90 ghosts 
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On April 19 2013 10:46 dirtydurb82 wrote:
Two things:
Problem: late game Protoss Air + HT is unbelieveably good against zerg. Vipers can use yoink ability, but are often slaughtered by HT before it amounts to much.
Solution: Vipers' blinding cloud works against air.
Side effects: could be OP against Terran, when used in conjuntion with Fungal.
Also, metagame:
The future of Zerg in HOTS is the Swarm Host. BLing not good against WM. Roach Hydra not good against anything (nice try Blizzard!) Toss Air crushes Zerg Air. The problem with Swarm Hosts is they are incredibly difficult to micro when the enemy is in range, so pros are scared of them right now...
Solution: Snipe templars with swarm hosts insane range and free units.
Also saying Swarm hosts aren't easy to micro is like saying sieged tanks aren´t easy to micro. They´re a siege unit with the longest range in game, they're not supposed to be mobile and microable and if the opponent gets close, well shit, thats his only chance to kill them. If the opponent gets close enough to kill them, you messed up, just like when a terran gets all his sieged tanks stomped.
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On April 19 2013 17:03 unkkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 10:46 dirtydurb82 wrote:
Two things:
Problem: late game Protoss Air + HT is unbelieveably good against zerg. Vipers can use yoink ability, but are often slaughtered by HT before it amounts to much.
Solution: Vipers' blinding cloud works against air.
Side effects: could be OP against Terran, when used in conjuntion with Fungal.
Also, metagame:
The future of Zerg in HOTS is the Swarm Host. BLing not good against WM. Roach Hydra not good against anything (nice try Blizzard!) Toss Air crushes Zerg Air. The problem with Swarm Hosts is they are incredibly difficult to micro when the enemy is in range, so pros are scared of them right now... Solution: Snipe templars with swarm hosts insane range and free units. Also saying Swarm hosts aren't easy to micro is like saying sieged tanks aren´t easy to micro. They´re a siege unit with the longest range in game, they're not supposed to be mobile and microable and if the opponent gets close, well shit, thats his only chance to kill them. If the opponent gets close enough to kill them, you messed up, just like when a terran gets all his sieged tanks stomped.
yeah, all those Terrans messing up with tankbased compositions against Broodlord/Infestor in WoL... so bad
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On April 19 2013 17:03 unkkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 10:46 dirtydurb82 wrote:
Two things:
Problem: late game Protoss Air + HT is unbelieveably good against zerg. Vipers can use yoink ability, but are often slaughtered by HT before it amounts to much.
Solution: Vipers' blinding cloud works against air.
Side effects: could be OP against Terran, when used in conjuntion with Fungal.
Also, metagame:
The future of Zerg in HOTS is the Swarm Host. BLing not good against WM. Roach Hydra not good against anything (nice try Blizzard!) Toss Air crushes Zerg Air. The problem with Swarm Hosts is they are incredibly difficult to micro when the enemy is in range, so pros are scared of them right now... Solution: Snipe templars with swarm hosts insane range and free units. Also saying Swarm hosts aren't easy to micro is like saying sieged tanks aren´t easy to micro. They´re a siege unit with the longest range in game, they're not supposed to be mobile and microable and if the opponent gets close, well shit, thats his only chance to kill them. If the opponent gets close enough to kill them, you messed up, just like when a terran gets all his sieged tanks stomped.
Actually tanks at least you can micro, ever heard of focus fire banelings?
Swarm hosts on the other hand have to deal with travel time and the fact they can be picked off before even reaching the target making them completely worthless unless you got a ton of them.
They might have hidden potential that has yet to be used but in their current state they just seem a bad imitation of a lurker.
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On April 19 2013 17:32 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 17:03 unkkz wrote:On April 19 2013 10:46 dirtydurb82 wrote:
Two things:
Problem: late game Protoss Air + HT is unbelieveably good against zerg. Vipers can use yoink ability, but are often slaughtered by HT before it amounts to much.
Solution: Vipers' blinding cloud works against air.
Side effects: could be OP against Terran, when used in conjuntion with Fungal.
Also, metagame:
The future of Zerg in HOTS is the Swarm Host. BLing not good against WM. Roach Hydra not good against anything (nice try Blizzard!) Toss Air crushes Zerg Air. The problem with Swarm Hosts is they are incredibly difficult to micro when the enemy is in range, so pros are scared of them right now... Solution: Snipe templars with swarm hosts insane range and free units. Also saying Swarm hosts aren't easy to micro is like saying sieged tanks aren´t easy to micro. They´re a siege unit with the longest range in game, they're not supposed to be mobile and microable and if the opponent gets close, well shit, thats his only chance to kill them. If the opponent gets close enough to kill them, you messed up, just like when a terran gets all his sieged tanks stomped. Actually tanks at least you can micro, ever heard of focus fire banelings? Swarm hosts on the other hand have to deal with travel time and the fact they can be picked off before even reaching the target making them completely worthless unless you got a ton of them.
Actually, even if they get picked off, it's not a problem since it's free units. They will at minimum deal their initial damage on whoever they run across - unless picked off by seige tanks, or by air units. With sufficient count, and positioning, you can use the positioning to surpise oppoenents, and do far more than minimum damage - and have immediately retreated before opponent can track your swarm hosts.
Swarm hosts are Zerg version of seige tanks.
/edit
And you can focus fire with the Locusts!
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On April 19 2013 17:35 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 17:32 Assirra wrote:On April 19 2013 17:03 unkkz wrote:On April 19 2013 10:46 dirtydurb82 wrote:
Two things:
Problem: late game Protoss Air + HT is unbelieveably good against zerg. Vipers can use yoink ability, but are often slaughtered by HT before it amounts to much.
Solution: Vipers' blinding cloud works against air.
Side effects: could be OP against Terran, when used in conjuntion with Fungal.
Also, metagame:
The future of Zerg in HOTS is the Swarm Host. BLing not good against WM. Roach Hydra not good against anything (nice try Blizzard!) Toss Air crushes Zerg Air. The problem with Swarm Hosts is they are incredibly difficult to micro when the enemy is in range, so pros are scared of them right now... Solution: Snipe templars with swarm hosts insane range and free units. Also saying Swarm hosts aren't easy to micro is like saying sieged tanks aren´t easy to micro. They´re a siege unit with the longest range in game, they're not supposed to be mobile and microable and if the opponent gets close, well shit, thats his only chance to kill them. If the opponent gets close enough to kill them, you messed up, just like when a terran gets all his sieged tanks stomped. Actually tanks at least you can micro, ever heard of focus fire banelings? Swarm hosts on the other hand have to deal with travel time and the fact they can be picked off before even reaching the target making them completely worthless unless you got a ton of them. Actually, even if they get picked off, it's not a problem since it's free units. They will at minimum deal their initial damage on whoever they run across - unless picked off by seige tanks, or by air units. With sufficient count, and positioning, you can use the positioning to surpise oppoenents, and do far more than minimum damage - and have immediately retreated before opponent can track your swarm hosts. Swarm hosts are Zerg version of seige tanks. /edit And you can focus fire with the Locusts!
Focus fire does not matter if they won' t reach their target tough. There is no way your opponent will not at least try to protect those high value units by simply putting them not in the front of their army. Compared to siege tanks (and lurkers) where that was impossible since there is no travel distance.
Yea, they will do some damage but is it enough to be worth their price? They cost around the same as a siege tank (more minerals, less gas) and more then a muta. You need to invest quite a bit for them to be useful at all and they got a cd of 25sec where 10sec nothing happens unless you upgrade them.
It is to early to claim it yet but so far swarm host seems the worst added unit in the expansion by a mile.
Who knows, they might have some hidden potential but till we see it in tournaments used by progamers its all theorizing and speculating.
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On April 19 2013 17:32 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 17:03 unkkz wrote:On April 19 2013 10:46 dirtydurb82 wrote:
Two things:
Problem: late game Protoss Air + HT is unbelieveably good against zerg. Vipers can use yoink ability, but are often slaughtered by HT before it amounts to much.
Solution: Vipers' blinding cloud works against air.
Side effects: could be OP against Terran, when used in conjuntion with Fungal.
Also, metagame:
The future of Zerg in HOTS is the Swarm Host. BLing not good against WM. Roach Hydra not good against anything (nice try Blizzard!) Toss Air crushes Zerg Air. The problem with Swarm Hosts is they are incredibly difficult to micro when the enemy is in range, so pros are scared of them right now... Solution: Snipe templars with swarm hosts insane range and free units. Also saying Swarm hosts aren't easy to micro is like saying sieged tanks aren´t easy to micro. They´re a siege unit with the longest range in game, they're not supposed to be mobile and microable and if the opponent gets close, well shit, thats his only chance to kill them. If the opponent gets close enough to kill them, you messed up, just like when a terran gets all his sieged tanks stomped. Actually tanks at least you can micro, ever heard of focus fire banelings? Swarm hosts on the other hand have to deal with travel time and the fact they can be picked off before even reaching the target making them completely worthless unless you got a ton of them. They might have hidden potential that has yet to be used but in their current state they just seem a bad imitation of a lurker.
I was watching the WCS EU qualifiers the other day and on the third qualifier there was a series between Welmu and Tefel (the one famously casted by Stephano) which had rather awful swarm host micro. Tefel would continuously mismanage his units and then at the end he complained about racial imbalance when it was quite obvious he lost due to his own mistakes.
Examples of his mistakes include:
1. rallying locusts single file into a defended position instead of microing them so the locusts have a better arc or a better positioning vs the colossus splash
2. not using his corruptors to threaten the colossi while the locust waves were advancing
3. never temporarily relocating his swarm hosts in between waves to keep them safe from a protoss raid
4. keeping his swarm hosts too close to the protoss base
There are other tricks as well. You can space out the spawns to offer better protection for your units. You can rally the locusts to next to your swarm host and only attack shortly before the time out to again better protect them. Then there is using locusts hosts to scout, to defuse widow mines, and so on.
This is off the top of my head, so presumably there are other examples besides this, so I do think that swarm hosts have some potential as a unit that rewards skill. The fact that players aren't used to the unit yet is an indication that it might have this potential, although I suppose it's not enough in itself (see the infestor in 2011), but I'm hopeful nevertheless. I think that at the very least the jury is still out on the unit.
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I am a zerg player.
I think PvT is insanely hard these days cause of the new boost medivacs and what they carry inside (cheap and highly cost efficient bio).
The problem is the more protoss have to split armies the weaker it gets compared to other races (that split about the same amount too). Therefore in both ZvP and TvP basically Z and P try to force protoss split the army up. While ling drops or whatever isnt a real issue and held off easily by cannons and few warpins terran drops are not. They are in fact once unloaded devastating and way too strong way too high dps way too hard to kill. So a minor mistake vs a terran drop costs you the game. For this reason protosses have to play more passively/defensively and get behind in macro. Not enaugh being behind the player who is ahead by current mechanics of meta can in many cases just end the game while being ahead with an all in push.
The true problem is that terran bio doesn't cost any gas. Therefore fighting with bio doesn't put any risk on gas but only on minerals for terran but still gives the chance on killing both mins and gas values of the opponent. It is simply and plain a risk/chance imbalance for terran bio. This can not be explained by the differences of races. In a game where all parties need to gather and use both gas and minerals for producing buildings/upgrades and units while terran only needs gas for buildings/upgrades and more or less no gas for units (bio play).
This is what I see when watching TvP pro streams as a starcraft player since day one 1998.
Generally:
There is one mechanic in players heads that noone has described yet: Dealing with imbalances.
Of course on prolevels many players happen to deal with imbalances quite well because they solely focus on dealing with exactly this. This is natural to human beings. If you are watch at other sports e.g. in soccer or basketball a team plays vs another team with a very strong player. Usually they try to take this player out by doubling him (using double the ressources of players vs 1 single player) and don't let him into action. The exactly same mechanic happens in SC2 (strong player = strong unit, strong timing, strong composition etc.). Players focus (of course they do) on these weaknesses and opponents strengths and try to not let them happen. Of course this works sometimes and this causes many terran players to say that some people managed to hold it and its therefore balanced. But its wrong. The other way round is right. The fact that a simple thing (lets say that SCV all in from an even ahead position in the game) can oftenly win you the game instantly is a reason to talk of a major imbalance. The fact that some people managed to hold it by using all their focus and ressources to prevent this from being successful does not give any evidence it is not imbalanced.
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On April 19 2013 18:12 LSN wrote:
stuff and one remark "The true problem is that terran bio doesn't cost any gas."
Hmm Marauder and all the support behind said ball has gas costs.
A toss can split, 1 Templar, 2 stalker + cannon in mineral line to block of econ harassment and drops. Instead of 1/4 split of whole army.
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it actually has initial gas costs, not replace gas costs. Therefore you could say it has no gas costs. Also 25 gas for a maurauder is so low that it can be neglected. Medivacs fly away oftenly and dont have to be replaced and vikings come in quite late when gas doesnt matter for the bio terran most of the times.
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On April 19 2013 18:58 LSN wrote:
it actually has initial gas costs, not replace gas costs. Therefore you could say it has no gas costs. Also 25 gas for a maurauder is so low that it can be neglected. Medivacs fly away oftenly and dont have to be replaced and vikings come in quite late when gas doesnt matter for the bio terran most of the times.
Before the ball is even a threat, the gas cost has been built up by the hundreds due to upgrades, tech and said Medivac costs.
A gateway does not simply need gas, but a successful Barracks needs 50. The support behind the bio is gassy.
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On April 19 2013 17:49 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 17:35 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 17:32 Assirra wrote:On April 19 2013 17:03 unkkz wrote:On April 19 2013 10:46 dirtydurb82 wrote:
Two things:
Problem: late game Protoss Air + HT is unbelieveably good against zerg. Vipers can use yoink ability, but are often slaughtered by HT before it amounts to much.
Solution: Vipers' blinding cloud works against air.
Side effects: could be OP against Terran, when used in conjuntion with Fungal.
Also, metagame:
The future of Zerg in HOTS is the Swarm Host. BLing not good against WM. Roach Hydra not good against anything (nice try Blizzard!) Toss Air crushes Zerg Air. The problem with Swarm Hosts is they are incredibly difficult to micro when the enemy is in range, so pros are scared of them right now... Solution: Snipe templars with swarm hosts insane range and free units. Also saying Swarm hosts aren't easy to micro is like saying sieged tanks aren´t easy to micro. They´re a siege unit with the longest range in game, they're not supposed to be mobile and microable and if the opponent gets close, well shit, thats his only chance to kill them. If the opponent gets close enough to kill them, you messed up, just like when a terran gets all his sieged tanks stomped. Actually tanks at least you can micro, ever heard of focus fire banelings? Swarm hosts on the other hand have to deal with travel time and the fact they can be picked off before even reaching the target making them completely worthless unless you got a ton of them. Actually, even if they get picked off, it's not a problem since it's free units. They will at minimum deal their initial damage on whoever they run across - unless picked off by seige tanks, or by air units. With sufficient count, and positioning, you can use the positioning to surpise oppoenents, and do far more than minimum damage - and have immediately retreated before opponent can track your swarm hosts. Swarm hosts are Zerg version of seige tanks. /edit And you can focus fire with the Locusts! Focus fire does not matter if they won' t reach their target tough. There is no way your opponent will not at least try to protect those high value units by simply putting them not in the front of their army. Compared to siege tanks (and lurkers) where that was impossible since there is no travel distance. Yea, they will do some damage but is it enough to be worth their price? They cost around the same as a siege tank (more minerals, less gas) and more then a muta. You need to invest quite a bit for them to be useful at all and they got a cd of 25sec where 10sec nothing happens unless you upgrade them. It is to early to claim it yet but so far swarm host seems the worst added unit in the expansion by a mile.Who knows, they might have some hidden potential but till we see it in tournaments used by progamers its all theorizing and speculating.
Well, in terms of uses you may be right. But I'm kind of relieved that not every unit has been figuered out/balanced properly already after a month. Shows that the game is more complex than pure stats.
And in terms of fun, swarm hosts are easily the most fun unit they added.
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On April 19 2013 19:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 17:49 Assirra wrote:On April 19 2013 17:35 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 17:32 Assirra wrote:On April 19 2013 17:03 unkkz wrote:On April 19 2013 10:46 dirtydurb82 wrote:
Two things:
Problem: late game Protoss Air + HT is unbelieveably good against zerg. Vipers can use yoink ability, but are often slaughtered by HT before it amounts to much.
Solution: Vipers' blinding cloud works against air.
Side effects: could be OP against Terran, when used in conjuntion with Fungal.
Also, metagame:
The future of Zerg in HOTS is the Swarm Host. BLing not good against WM. Roach Hydra not good against anything (nice try Blizzard!) Toss Air crushes Zerg Air. The problem with Swarm Hosts is they are incredibly difficult to micro when the enemy is in range, so pros are scared of them right now... Solution: Snipe templars with swarm hosts insane range and free units. Also saying Swarm hosts aren't easy to micro is like saying sieged tanks aren´t easy to micro. They´re a siege unit with the longest range in game, they're not supposed to be mobile and microable and if the opponent gets close, well shit, thats his only chance to kill them. If the opponent gets close enough to kill them, you messed up, just like when a terran gets all his sieged tanks stomped. Actually tanks at least you can micro, ever heard of focus fire banelings? Swarm hosts on the other hand have to deal with travel time and the fact they can be picked off before even reaching the target making them completely worthless unless you got a ton of them. Actually, even if they get picked off, it's not a problem since it's free units. They will at minimum deal their initial damage on whoever they run across - unless picked off by seige tanks, or by air units. With sufficient count, and positioning, you can use the positioning to surpise oppoenents, and do far more than minimum damage - and have immediately retreated before opponent can track your swarm hosts. Swarm hosts are Zerg version of seige tanks. /edit And you can focus fire with the Locusts! Focus fire does not matter if they won' t reach their target tough. There is no way your opponent will not at least try to protect those high value units by simply putting them not in the front of their army. Compared to siege tanks (and lurkers) where that was impossible since there is no travel distance. Yea, they will do some damage but is it enough to be worth their price? They cost around the same as a siege tank (more minerals, less gas) and more then a muta. You need to invest quite a bit for them to be useful at all and they got a cd of 25sec where 10sec nothing happens unless you upgrade them. It is to early to claim it yet but so far swarm host seems the worst added unit in the expansion by a mile.Who knows, they might have some hidden potential but till we see it in tournaments used by progamers its all theorizing and speculating. Well, in terms of uses you may be right. But I'm kind of relieved that not every unit has been figuered out/balanced properly already after a month. Shows that the game is more complex than pure stats. And in terms of fun, swarm hosts are easily the most fun unit they added.
Swarm hosts look disgusting and unnerving, I'm happy they are rare. :p
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EPT
