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On April 19 2013 19:23 Sissors wrote:Not to mention it is completely irrelevant. Yeah bio needs little gas, and how exactly does that help bio? I have often enough seen bio players lose with a significant amount of gas banked, which they simply don't have any use for. Just like a gas heavy composition isn't ideal, also a mineral heavy composition has clear downsides to a balanced one. Show nested quote +The fact that some people managed to hold it by using all their focus and ressources to prevent this from being successful does not give any evidence it is not imbalanced. And the opponent doesn't use all their focus and resources to make it succesfull? This really is a non-argument. The problem with PvT is that the midgame dropping with boost medivacs is the only thing the terrans have. If your micro isn't extremely good you really don't want to end up late game vs toss. In WoL you could at least transition to something like battlecruisers, but that also isn't relevant in HotS. And early game all banshee openings were made redundant and all early pushes + all-ins are pretty much stopped by planetary nexus. Meanwhile toss got a shitload of all-ins themselves which are very hard to differentiate between. And toss has pretty much free scouting with hallucinations. Fine if you have a good way to balance that mid-game better, but then not make it a game like PvZ WoL where you have one chance on a mid-game push to win as terran, and everything else is hopeless.
First of all this is flat wrong, Protoss DOESN"T have a lategame advantage. I don't know where this myth comes from... There was never at any point in time a piece of evidence that Protoss was actually better in the lategame against Terran after Terrans started building more ghosts. TvP was most balanced MU at the end of WoL.
Second of all, BCs were never viable at the endgame of TvP except on super big maps and you could catch a player by surprise. Feedback + void rays crushed it. Archon toilet was effective as well, just ask MVP. BCs are actually better in Heart of the Swarm, they got a buff. Of course, no one knows that because no one ever builds anything but MMM. Unless you're avilo.
And no, planetary nexus doesn't stop ALL early pushes and all-ins, widow mine drops are still very powerful. And please list for me all of these all-ins that can't be differentiated from. You have scan. And reapers which are extremely, EXTREMEly good at scouting. SCV scouts are also virtually guaranteed to get into the base to scout 1 or 2 gas. Terran has far and away superior scouting to Protoss.
Hallucination scouting is too slow to scout the important things we need to see to confirm something unless we give up map control and go sentry first.
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On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now.
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On April 20 2013 02:05 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 14:51 SlixSC wrote:On April 19 2013 14:25 convention wrote:On April 19 2013 13:17 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 07:25 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:04 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:51 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:
[quote]
Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Read the fucking thread. On April 19 2013 06:11 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 05:48 Dudasc wrote:
this game is so "well" balanced that no zerg made it through the WCS qualifiers. Looks like all the accomplished zergs (targa, xlord, etc) lost to "big names" like Siw and Bunny
IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously? Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? Why are you feeding me some BS about Zergs. This is about Protoss not doing anything. Way to cuss and then attempt a red herring. You're a moron. I think its pretty obvious your ability to argue is pretty weak. You keep referencing Zerg in a discussion about Protoss. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there.
Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs.
You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame.
Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you?
So, Terrans are advancing and it's proof that Protoss can't advance because of Terrans. Whereas Zergs advancing is .. ? Nothing? I guess all Zergs just forfeit when they are matched against a Protoss. But better yet, what happens when a good Protoss gets taken down by a good Zerg? Then all protoss representation goes into shit without Terrans lifting a finger. To blame it all on Terrans, bravo. I mean, look at the last GSL games. Getting taken out with SCV all-in when Protoss has access to forcefields and collosi. Those were some bad plays. And yet that gets no mention. Naw, you're right. Definite proof that Terran is OP. RorO didn't play against any Protoss when he advanced. soO lost 2-0 to sOs in his only ZvP when he advanced. KangHo didn't have a Protoss in his group. Shine 2-0ed Squirtle in his only ZvP, Symbol didn't play a P. Soulkey didn't have a Protoss in his group. So actually, Zerg hasn't been responsible for hardly any of the Protoss defeats. And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time. The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy. Yeah, forcefields are hard. And while the force-fields are holding off the SCVs; yeah, selecting just the collosi to attack rather than whole army is hard. Once the SCV are fried, refreshing forcefields are hard. Using the time bought to warp in more units, finish upgrades, yeah, hard. It's insanely hard, No denying it. But they're Code S. They can do this kind of shit. Protoss is the one race that has never ever been dominant, and has spent the most amount of time with the lowest win rates. Surely protoss players just suck. Or maybe, just maybe protoss is the weakest race and deserve some sort of buff to be able to not have the perpetual 45% winrate we saw all throughout WoL and so far in HotS. I will almost guarantee you and everyone else that thinks similarly has never actually played protoss and tried to forcefield off sections of the terran army. FF range is small, and sentries are very expensive. And if you really just attack with collosi, then the maurders that you trapped near your army just stim in and kill the collosi. Or do you think that toss will force field everything out and somehow terran is going to sit there? Do people really think toss players are just bad? How about we nerf the marine to do 1 damage, then when terrans start losing we can all say how terrans are just bad, not that they have a weak race. Why do people always make up statistics when making balance arguments? Statistically speaking Zerg is by far the weakest race, by far. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E&usp=sharingHow you could possibly justify a protoss buff using statistics is beyond me. Because those stats are flat wrong at least for TvP. I pointed out a few mistakes the other day in a post. Half of the games of TvP from MLG are just flat missing. Should be 23-11 Terran at MLG, not 11-7. The GSL also has 2 phantom wins in TvP for Protoss, should be 12-7. I didn't even analyze very much and I already found flaws in the data. Remind me again how many Protoss are still in Code S.
You protoss players need to understand that ZvP is a little bit favoured towards protoss. It's not protoss that is too weak, its just terran that is too strong and many protoss players keep falling to korean terrans in these tournaments
I also think that protoss top players have been really underperfoming and it includes players like Rain, MC, Seed, Creator and many others. For some outdated reason, protoss players think that they are BO dependent and should all in every game. It's extremely hard to see protoss players using the new features like MSC, oracles, etc well enough (mainly in zvp). Even in GSL code S the top players performed really terribly. 95% of the games the protoss players use MSC like an a-move unit, instead of maximizing the mass call spell. Its the ugliest thing ever to see a MSC die to 1-2 queens.
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On April 20 2013 02:14 Ghanburighan wrote:
That's actually correct, TvP is 12-7 in the GSL. Something has been counted twice.
Also, why isn't the ESET UK tournament not on that set of data points at all? We have ZOTAC finals, and a German national tournament, but not the one with a fair number of mid-tier Koreans on it? Plus, it happened after MLG, so even though it says "April winrates" there is a tournament from Mid-March on it. But not the one that then happened a week later. Whoever compiled this is missing a ton of stuff.
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I have to agree that the above discussion is spot on. In both ZvT and ZvP, it is often frustrating to me that my opponents mineral dumb (marine/zealot) simply annihilates my mineral dump (zerglings). While it is true that terran bio is not completely gasless, consider that zerg and terran upgrades with the tech they require roughly cancel eachother out in terms of gas cost (including stim and combat shields). Then, it's true you need medivacs, yet when you consider 1 muta = 1 medivac, or 4 banes = 1 medivac, or that 2 infestor = 3 medivacs, it just seems unfair that the terran mineral dump is so much better than the zerg mineral dump. Zerglings are not as versatile and don't do well in a straight up fight. The result is that the overall terran army is just too cost effective. In ZvP this problem has been addressed by dumping minerals in static defense instead, but this doesn't work in ZvT.
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On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now.
SH won't be the new Infestor.
Infestor was a catch-all unit and it was good vs everything.
SH isn't.
I am not sure what you mean by people are starting to use them now.
I rarely seen them used in top level play.
SK used some swarm host a few days ago to beat Maru.
Though i would argued is that Maru messed up with his mech push and allow SK to win.
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On April 20 2013 02:23 Dudasc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:05 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 14:51 SlixSC wrote:On April 19 2013 14:25 convention wrote:On April 19 2013 13:17 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 07:25 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:04 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:51 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:
[quote]
You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Read the fucking thread. On April 19 2013 06:11 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously?
Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? Why are you feeding me some BS about Zergs. This is about Protoss not doing anything. Way to cuss and then attempt a red herring. You're a moron. I think its pretty obvious your ability to argue is pretty weak. You keep referencing Zerg in a discussion about Protoss. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there.
Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs.
You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame.
Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you?
So, Terrans are advancing and it's proof that Protoss can't advance because of Terrans. Whereas Zergs advancing is .. ? Nothing? I guess all Zergs just forfeit when they are matched against a Protoss. But better yet, what happens when a good Protoss gets taken down by a good Zerg? Then all protoss representation goes into shit without Terrans lifting a finger. To blame it all on Terrans, bravo. I mean, look at the last GSL games. Getting taken out with SCV all-in when Protoss has access to forcefields and collosi. Those were some bad plays. And yet that gets no mention. Naw, you're right. Definite proof that Terran is OP. RorO didn't play against any Protoss when he advanced. soO lost 2-0 to sOs in his only ZvP when he advanced. KangHo didn't have a Protoss in his group. Shine 2-0ed Squirtle in his only ZvP, Symbol didn't play a P. Soulkey didn't have a Protoss in his group. So actually, Zerg hasn't been responsible for hardly any of the Protoss defeats. And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time. The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy. Yeah, forcefields are hard. And while the force-fields are holding off the SCVs; yeah, selecting just the collosi to attack rather than whole army is hard. Once the SCV are fried, refreshing forcefields are hard. Using the time bought to warp in more units, finish upgrades, yeah, hard. It's insanely hard, No denying it. But they're Code S. They can do this kind of shit. Protoss is the one race that has never ever been dominant, and has spent the most amount of time with the lowest win rates. Surely protoss players just suck. Or maybe, just maybe protoss is the weakest race and deserve some sort of buff to be able to not have the perpetual 45% winrate we saw all throughout WoL and so far in HotS. I will almost guarantee you and everyone else that thinks similarly has never actually played protoss and tried to forcefield off sections of the terran army. FF range is small, and sentries are very expensive. And if you really just attack with collosi, then the maurders that you trapped near your army just stim in and kill the collosi. Or do you think that toss will force field everything out and somehow terran is going to sit there? Do people really think toss players are just bad? How about we nerf the marine to do 1 damage, then when terrans start losing we can all say how terrans are just bad, not that they have a weak race. Why do people always make up statistics when making balance arguments? Statistically speaking Zerg is by far the weakest race, by far. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E&usp=sharingHow you could possibly justify a protoss buff using statistics is beyond me. Because those stats are flat wrong at least for TvP. I pointed out a few mistakes the other day in a post. Half of the games of TvP from MLG are just flat missing. Should be 23-11 Terran at MLG, not 11-7. The GSL also has 2 phantom wins in TvP for Protoss, should be 12-7. I didn't even analyze very much and I already found flaws in the data. Remind me again how many Protoss are still in Code S. You protoss players need to understand that ZvP is a little bit favoured towards protoss. It's not protoss that is too weak, its just terran that is too strong and many protoss players keep falling to korean terrans in these tournaments I also think that protoss top players have been really underperfoming and it includes players like Rain, MC, Seed, Creator and many others. For some outdated reason, protoss players think that they are BO dependent and should all in every game. It's extremely hard to see protoss players using the new features like MSC, oracles, etc well enough (mainly in zvp). Even in GSL code S the top players performed really terribly. 95% of the games the protoss players use MSC like an a-move unit, instead of maximizing the mass call spell. Its the ugliest thing ever to see a MSC die to 1-2 queens.
I'm well aware of that, that was one of the arguing points I made against someone else earlier when I discussed TvP. And I do agree in part with what you said about some of the Protoss players, Creator's PvT has been extremely predictable for a very long time, and Seed has been in Code B for months. Rain has been surpassed for months, but MC I disagree with, he has always played aggressive like that with BOs, plus he has used oracles very well in some high-profile matches.
As for the MSC, I think players are using more time warps which means that they don't necessarily have the energy for recall, at least in fights.
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On April 20 2013 02:23 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:14 Ghanburighan wrote:
That's actually correct, TvP is 12-7 in the GSL. Something has been counted twice. Also, why isn't the ESET UK tournament not on that set of data points at all? We have ZOTAC finals, and a German national tournament, but not the one with a fair number of mid-tier Koreans on it? Plus, it happened after MLG, so even though it says "April winrates" there is a tournament from Mid-March on it. But not the one that then happened a week later. Whoever compiled this is missing a ton of stuff.
Because all data is faulty! and i will explain why. Only data that is viable is topro data. Even i can join zotaccup and by that screw ur data up...
As i see it the only data that is viable to judge is WCS finals global.. because those XX players are known for getting the most out of the units... Zotac amateurs, ESET semipro's are not the bar, the bar for good balance data in WCS finals (data from the best of the best).
i.e. Not even dreamhack is viable data.
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On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now.
Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks..
The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm.
I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit
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On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit
Well obviously you have to use vipers with SH to do damages... SH alones suck (they are just a good contain), SH with support are crazy good (and they become a truly menacing unit).
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SH is not the issue blizzard should start with when working on balance. Actually current knowledge about swarmhost is not good enaugh to change anything there. I agree swarmhost feels broken for the following reason: It seems like an all in unit. When I use swarmhosts I usually win or lose the game cause of them. The fact that you have to build loads of them to make them little effective (8-10+) makes them an allin unit for me (at the current state) from which I hardly can transition away. Either protoss can deal with the locusts and kills them withoutany significant losses (z lose) or has a very hard time and losing alot of stuff to swarmhosts (z win). There seems nothing inbetween for me yet. But as I said its too early.
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Honestly I think the only thing they might change in the near future is medivac speed boost. As a terran player I hope they don't, but I can definitely see them adding an energy cost to the ability so that players have to think a tad more about when they actually use it. This would also probably limit the amount of drops that slip away from say, protoss, as you probably won't have enough energy to boost into the base, heal up stim damage and then boost back out of the base safely.
If they DO go through with a nerf like that then I hope they change Oracle's damage to 3 shotting scvs instead of 2 shotting heh. Maybe give the Oracle a little more starting energy to compensate or something. I'm sure the math geniuses at Blizzard would be able to balance the numbers behind that....
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Well, I'd hope for 3 things (apart from making mech TvP viable...):
1) Fix mutalisks in ZvZ. Playing Terran is fun, but I miss the swarm so much 
2) Nerf blinding cloud vs tanks & find a way to make anything not baneling based useful against bio.
3) FIX MUTALISKS IN ZVZ.
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On April 20 2013 02:14 Ghanburighan wrote:
That's actually correct, TvP is 12-7 in the GSL. Something has been counted twice.
I count 14-7.
On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
First of all this is flat wrong, Protoss DOESN"T have a lategame advantage. I don't know where this myth comes from...
Maybe from Terran players who actually tried and saw how vastly easier it is for Protoss to win through sheer outproduction or dismantle Terran using Zealots/DTs harass while threatening to kill expands with the main army? Or maybe carefully managing slowly produced expensive glass cannons (Ghosts/Vikings) is super comfortable compared with the overwhelming amount of micro required to use units such as Zealots, Archons or Colossi? Never saw one of those games in which Terrans wins 6-7 fights but still lose after being defeated once in the 7th or the 8th? Sounds fair to you than one side has little to no room for mistakes when the other one can overcome massive supply deficits with leftover defensive Templars and Zealots warp-ins?
On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
There was never at any point in time a piece of evidence that Protoss was actually better in the lategame against Terran after Terrans started building more ghosts. TvP was most balanced MU at the end of WoL.
In lategame TvP, Protoss has a massive advantage in defence, production (much faster remax, possibility of tech switches, particularly to capitalize on inadequate Vikings counts), and even more importantly, in the "attention warfare" (queueing Zealots/DTs to harass takes far less time and attention than dealing with them); and now with HotS, they also have the army advantage against mass Ghosts/Vikings (i. e. the only hope Terran had when you somehow managed to stabilize to slowly build a 12-17k army value) using a few Tempests.
On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
Second of all, BCs were never viable at the endgame of TvP except on super big maps and you could catch a player by surprise. Feedback + void rays crushed it. Archon toilet was effective as well, just ask MVP. BCs are actually better in Heart of the Swarm, they got a buff. Of course, no one knows that because no one ever builds anything but MMM. Unless you're avilo.
Yeah, Terrans kept playing bio because they're stupid and unwilling to experiment, not because mech was proven to be horribly bad (and it's still is).
On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
And no, planetary nexus doesn't stop ALL early pushes and all-ins, widow mine drops are still very powerful.
So name those one-base all-ins Terran can still do? Guess you won't find many outside of proxy 11/11 on some maps.
Widow Mines drops are very easy to defend and Protoss are already used to have MSC, some Stalkers and detection at each mineral line to fend them off without any loss.
On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
And please list for me all of these all-ins that can't be differentiated from. You have scan. And reapers which are extremely, EXTREMEly good at scouting. SCV scouts are also virtually guaranteed to get into the base to scout 1 or 2 gas. Terran has far and away superior scouting to Protoss.
That you have poor understanding of the Terran race to suggest that Scans can actually scout all-ins when Protoss bothers to hide them is one thing, but surely you're familiar with your own race and thus know that when all-inning you can proxy all your buildings if you fancy? Sage vs Taeja, Star Station, ATC: Sage proxies one Stargate and 3 Gateways somewhere in the map, Taeja blindly prepares for a frontal bust; but how could he know if it was not Blink Stalkers? Reapers are very nice to scout indeed, but even a Reaper would not have told him what Sage was doing.
On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
Hallucination scouting is too slow to scout the important things we need to see to confirm something unless we give up map control and go sentry first.
Except having map control is not really required because you have nothing to fear as long as you have MSC + detection + some units at home, so going Sentries as your first units is perfectly legit. Furthermore, don't you have a 14 sight range flying unit to scout Terran before that?
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On April 20 2013 03:17 Big J wrote:Well, I'd hope for 3 things (apart from making mech TvP viable...): 1) Fix mutalisks in ZvZ. Playing Terran is fun, but I miss the swarm so much 2) Nerf blinding cloud vs tanks & find a way to make anything not baneling based useful against bio. 3) FIX MUTALISKS IN ZVZ.
I myself have been having huge problems with blinding cloud, but I think I could also spread my tanks better vs Zerg anyways so I don't think it should be nerfed until players practice vs it more. That said, I think there are plenty of styles Zergs can use vs Terran that don't involve banelings, people just need to experiment and practice different stuff more.
I know nothing about Z v Z xD
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On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit.
And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras.
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On April 20 2013 03:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 03:17 Big J wrote:Well, I'd hope for 3 things (apart from making mech TvP viable...): 1) Fix mutalisks in ZvZ. Playing Terran is fun, but I miss the swarm so much 2) Nerf blinding cloud vs tanks & find a way to make anything not baneling based useful against bio. 3) FIX MUTALISKS IN ZVZ. I myself have been having huge problems with blinding cloud, but I think I could also spread my tanks better vs Zerg anyways so I don't think it should be nerfed until players practice vs it more. That said, I think there are plenty of styles Zergs can use vs Terran that don't involve banelings, people just need to experiment and practice different stuff more. I know nothing about Z v Z xD
I think the main problem with blinding cloud and tanks is that if the Zerg army is running at you as you scan, you have zero time to spread tanks, you have to siege them immediately.
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I think this thread is more of the "Designated Whine Thread" while serving as a very general back and forth "Help Me" thread.
I guess it does serve its purpose.
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On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
Second of all, BCs were never viable at the endgame of TvP except on super big maps and you could catch a player by surprise. Feedback + void rays crushed it. Archon toilet was effective as well, just ask MVP. BCs are actually better in Heart of the Swarm, they got a buff. Of course, no one knows that because no one ever builds anything but MMM. Unless you're avilo.
I went BCs a lot in WoL TvP. They were infinitely better there than in HotS. In HotS Protoss has Tempests, which hard counter them -- 93 damage per shot, if I recall. The Battlecruisers are so slow that the Tempests can kite back behind other units/storms/cannons and the BCs will never get close.
I've never seen my army die so fast as when I got BCs vs Protoss in HotS.
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On April 20 2013 03:41 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 03:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 20 2013 03:17 Big J wrote:Well, I'd hope for 3 things (apart from making mech TvP viable...): 1) Fix mutalisks in ZvZ. Playing Terran is fun, but I miss the swarm so much 2) Nerf blinding cloud vs tanks & find a way to make anything not baneling based useful against bio. 3) FIX MUTALISKS IN ZVZ. I myself have been having huge problems with blinding cloud, but I think I could also spread my tanks better vs Zerg anyways so I don't think it should be nerfed until players practice vs it more. That said, I think there are plenty of styles Zergs can use vs Terran that don't involve banelings, people just need to experiment and practice different stuff more. I know nothing about Z v Z xD I think the main problem with blinding cloud and tanks is that if the Zerg army is running at you as you scan, you have zero time to spread tanks, you have to siege them immediately.
This is very true. I think this just means if you're going to use tanks in some form and you know they have vipers then you need to play more positional and leapfrog when/if you make a push.
Maybe this is also why I'm seeing a lot of GSL terrans use bio/mine instead of WoL style bio/tank. Going bio means you will inherently be the aggressor, which is not necessarily true if you're going mech which is more positional based.
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EPT
