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On April 20 2013 03:41 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 03:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 20 2013 03:17 Big J wrote:Well, I'd hope for 3 things (apart from making mech TvP viable...): 1) Fix mutalisks in ZvZ. Playing Terran is fun, but I miss the swarm so much  2) Nerf blinding cloud vs tanks & find a way to make anything not baneling based useful against bio. 3) FIX MUTALISKS IN ZVZ. I myself have been having huge problems with blinding cloud, but I think I could also spread my tanks better vs Zerg anyways so I don't think it should be nerfed until players practice vs it more. That said, I think there are plenty of styles Zergs can use vs Terran that don't involve banelings, people just need to experiment and practice different stuff more. I know nothing about Z v Z xD I think the main problem with blinding cloud and tanks is that if the Zerg army is running at you as you scan, you have zero time to spread tanks, you have to siege them immediately.
well, I think that there isn't a big problem with biomech that is tankbased. We see it from time to time in the GSL these days, it's not straigt out dead. But it's a huge problem for mech, were the tanks are your main antiground unit (unless you go for hellbat/thor, which I believe isn't overly viable at the highest level).
For anything not banelingy in ZvT. I'm not sure I have seen roach/hydra win yet in the GSL. And that is when Terrans actually keep on producing widow mines against it, not when they just switch into pure Marine/Medivac Marine/Medivac/Tank or Marine/Marauder/Medivac or Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Tank.
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On April 20 2013 03:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 03:41 shockaslim wrote:On April 20 2013 03:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 20 2013 03:17 Big J wrote:Well, I'd hope for 3 things (apart from making mech TvP viable...): 1) Fix mutalisks in ZvZ. Playing Terran is fun, but I miss the swarm so much 2) Nerf blinding cloud vs tanks & find a way to make anything not baneling based useful against bio. 3) FIX MUTALISKS IN ZVZ. I myself have been having huge problems with blinding cloud, but I think I could also spread my tanks better vs Zerg anyways so I don't think it should be nerfed until players practice vs it more. That said, I think there are plenty of styles Zergs can use vs Terran that don't involve banelings, people just need to experiment and practice different stuff more. I know nothing about Z v Z xD I think the main problem with blinding cloud and tanks is that if the Zerg army is running at you as you scan, you have zero time to spread tanks, you have to siege them immediately. well, I think that there isn't a big problem with biomech that is tankbased. We see it from time to time in the GSL these days, it's not straigt out dead. But it's a huge problem for mech, were the tanks are your main antiground unit (unless you go for hellbat/thor, which I believe isn't overly viable at the highest level). For anything not banelingy in ZvT. I'm not sure I have seen roach/hydra win yet in the GSL. And that is when Terrans actually keep on producing widow mines against it, not when they just switch into pure Marine/Medivac Marine/Medivac/Tank or Marine/Marauder/Medivac or Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Tank.
I don't agree that tanks are your main anti ground as mech (not like in BW). I think widow mines are just as or more important even in a pure mech composition. Also I think banshees and ravens are a must as well. Having hellbats up front to roast lings and soak up damage/make a wall for your tanks is also a given...
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Actually Mech can still played in TvZ.
It's tough though and very meticulous.
Mech can be screwed by tech switches easily if you can get caught offguard.
Maru show that you can do it but you have to really careful.
(Turret rings, slowly turtling to 4/bases).
And eventually push out with a mech force.
Maybe one day someone will revolutionize the match-up TvZ.
But until then.
It will always be MMMM against Muta/Ling/Bling.
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Maybe from Terran players who actually tried and saw how vastly easier it is for Protoss to win through sheer outproduction or dismantle Terran using Zealots/DTs harass while threatening to kill expands with the main army? Or maybe carefully managing slowly produced expensive glass cannons (Ghosts/Vikings) is super comfortable compared with the overwhelming amount of micro required to use units such as Zealots, Archons or Colossi? Never saw one of those games in which Terrans wins 6-7 fights but still lose after being defeated once in the 7th or the 8th? Sounds fair to you than one side has little to no room for mistakes when the other one can overcome massive supply deficits with leftover defensive Templars and Zealots warp-ins?
Terran winning 6 fights, and still losing the game? That's a pathetic exaggeration, that maybe happens when they win 2-3 fights because planetaries and simcity give them a massive terrain boost when they were put behind by a mistake they made.
Ghosts are no more difficult to use than High Templar, and vikings are simply focus-firing. Cueing focus-fire commands is not that hard.
In lategame TvP, Protoss has a massive advantage in defence, production (much faster remax, possibility of tech switches, particularly to capitalize on inadequate Vikings counts), and even more importantly, in the "attention warfare" (queueing Zealots/DTs to harass takes far less time and attention than dealing with them); and now with HotS, they also have the army advantage against mass Ghosts/Vikings (i. e. the only hope Terran had when you somehow managed to stabilize to slowly build a 12-17k army value) using a few Tempests.
Good thing Tempests are negated with one PDD. If we can mix in Tempests, mix in PDD to protect the vikings. What tech switches can I do? Ghosts are strong against everything Protoss can build. Pull your vikings back after a battle.
Yeah, Terrans kept playing bio because they're stupid and unwilling to experiment, not because mech was proven to be horribly bad (and it's still is).
Because pointing out that BCs got a buff and that no one uses them except avilo is the same thing as calling Terrans stupid and unwilling to experiment. Nice strawman.
So name those one-base all-ins Terran can still do? Guess you won't find many outside of proxy 11/11 on some maps.
Widow Mines drops are very easy to defend and Protoss are already used to have MSC, some Stalkers and detection at each mineral line to fend them off without any loss.
That you have poor understanding of the Terran race to suggest that Scans can actually scout all-ins when Protoss bothers to hide them is one thing, but surely you're familiar with your own race and thus know that when all-inning you can proxy all your buildings if you fancy? Sage vs Taeja, Star Station, ATC: Sage proxies one Stargate and 3 Gateways somewhere in the map, Taeja blindly prepares for a frontal bust; but how could he know if it was not Blink Stalkers? Reapers are very nice to scout indeed, but even a Reaper would not have told him what Sage was doing.
You actually tried to use a game Terran won as proof of your argument. Not seeing anything in the main base of the Protoss and no expansion is enough to know that an all-in is coming. He figured that out, held and you're actually trying to use that as evidence that Terran is weak to all these all-ins. The blink all-in got nerfed and isn't used much at all anymore.
Why are all-ins that Protoss proxies so good, and yours so useless. I've watched games of proxy marine-hellion drop that beat down Protoss until they GG out.
Except having map control is not really required because you have nothing to fear as long as you have MSC + detection + some units at home, so going Sentries as your first units is perfectly legit. Furthermore, don't you have a 14 sight range flying unit to scout Terran before that?
Not having any map control and being really safe is great if your pressuring. Not so much if you just fast expand. And yea sure, if I plan on flying what's basically amounts to a 100/100 defensive mechanic that is slow and who loses to 2 marines in combat across the whole map I can do that.
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On April 20 2013 03:53 Dzerzhinsky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
Second of all, BCs were never viable at the endgame of TvP except on super big maps and you could catch a player by surprise. Feedback + void rays crushed it. Archon toilet was effective as well, just ask MVP. BCs are actually better in Heart of the Swarm, they got a buff. Of course, no one knows that because no one ever builds anything but MMM. Unless you're avilo. I went BCs a lot in WoL TvP. They were infinitely better there than in HotS. In HotS Protoss has Tempests, which hard counter them -- 93 damage per shot, if I recall. The Battlecruisers are so slow that the Tempests can kite back behind other units/storms/cannons and the BCs will never get close. I've never seen my army die so fast as when I got BCs vs Protoss in HotS.
Dude.. build a raven and drop a pdds.. gg100%
Yamato,cannon + HSM are still strong against Pair
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On April 20 2013 04:01 FakeDeath wrote:
Actually Mech can still played in TvZ.
Maru show that you can do it but you have to really careful.
(Turret rings, slowly turtling to 4/bases).
And eventually push out with a mech force.
Maybe one day someone will revolutionize the match-up TvZ.
But until then.
It will always be MMMM against Muta/Ling/Bling.
Mech is just rather pointless when you need less time per game + less stress with MMMM at the same skill level...
Consider that progamers have to play multiple games in a row, its just so much more efficient to end the game quickly as terran rather than drag it out into some long ass battle. Progamers practice for sprints, not marathons
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On April 20 2013 04:03 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:01 FakeDeath wrote:
Actually Mech can still played in TvZ.
Maru show that you can do it but you have to really careful.
(Turret rings, slowly turtling to 4/bases).
And eventually push out with a mech force.
Maybe one day someone will revolutionize the match-up TvZ.
But until then.
It will always be MMMM against Muta/Ling/Bling. Mech is just rather pointless when you need less time per game + less stress with MMMM at the same skill level...
Mech is far less micro intensive than Bio-anything. So I guess if micro is your weak point but everything else about your mechanics are good then Mech could be an attractive alternative.
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On April 20 2013 04:02 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 03:53 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
Second of all, BCs were never viable at the endgame of TvP except on super big maps and you could catch a player by surprise. Feedback + void rays crushed it. Archon toilet was effective as well, just ask MVP. BCs are actually better in Heart of the Swarm, they got a buff. Of course, no one knows that because no one ever builds anything but MMM. Unless you're avilo. I went BCs a lot in WoL TvP. They were infinitely better there than in HotS. In HotS Protoss has Tempests, which hard counter them -- 93 damage per shot, if I recall. The Battlecruisers are so slow that the Tempests can kite back behind other units/storms/cannons and the BCs will never get close. I've never seen my army die so fast as when I got BCs vs Protoss in HotS. Dude.. build a raven and drop a pdds.. gg100% Yamato,cannon + HSM are still strong against Pair
Unfortunately the BCs are still too slow to actually do any damage before they die. Raven/Viking is what you need vs Tempests (if you're going mech).
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On April 20 2013 04:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:03 padfoota wrote:On April 20 2013 04:01 FakeDeath wrote:
Actually Mech can still played in TvZ.
Maru show that you can do it but you have to really careful.
(Turret rings, slowly turtling to 4/bases).
And eventually push out with a mech force.
Maybe one day someone will revolutionize the match-up TvZ.
But until then.
It will always be MMMM against Muta/Ling/Bling. Mech is just rather pointless when you need less time per game + less stress with MMMM at the same skill level... Mech is far less micro intensive than Bio-anything. So I guess if micro is your weak point but everything else about your mechanics are good then Mech could be an attractive alternative.
You cannot deny that mech requires far more finesse than bio to play - the stress level is still the same since you have to be so careful with the mech army compared to bio, and Ive really never heard of a "short" mech game.
When it comes down to builds and strategies, people here are arguing about BCs and yamato and ravens vs tempest when progamers are figuring out the most efficient way of winning the game....and TLers here are trying to figure out the most elaborate way to win.....its just so pointless to go for a 30-40 minute high stress build when a quick 5 rax Scv all in will accomplish the same thing at 14th minute mark.
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On April 20 2013 04:08 Dzerzhinsky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:02 govie wrote:On April 20 2013 03:53 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
Second of all, BCs were never viable at the endgame of TvP except on super big maps and you could catch a player by surprise. Feedback + void rays crushed it. Archon toilet was effective as well, just ask MVP. BCs are actually better in Heart of the Swarm, they got a buff. Of course, no one knows that because no one ever builds anything but MMM. Unless you're avilo. I went BCs a lot in WoL TvP. They were infinitely better there than in HotS. In HotS Protoss has Tempests, which hard counter them -- 93 damage per shot, if I recall. The Battlecruisers are so slow that the Tempests can kite back behind other units/storms/cannons and the BCs will never get close. I've never seen my army die so fast as when I got BCs vs Protoss in HotS. Dude.. build a raven and drop a pdds.. gg100% Yamato,cannon + HSM are still strong against Pair Unfortunately the BCs are still too slow to actually do any damage before they die. Raven/Viking is what you need vs Tempests (if you're going mech).
Whatever.. talking to a wall here...
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On April 20 2013 04:14 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:08 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On April 20 2013 04:02 govie wrote:On April 20 2013 03:53 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
Second of all, BCs were never viable at the endgame of TvP except on super big maps and you could catch a player by surprise. Feedback + void rays crushed it. Archon toilet was effective as well, just ask MVP. BCs are actually better in Heart of the Swarm, they got a buff. Of course, no one knows that because no one ever builds anything but MMM. Unless you're avilo. I went BCs a lot in WoL TvP. They were infinitely better there than in HotS. In HotS Protoss has Tempests, which hard counter them -- 93 damage per shot, if I recall. The Battlecruisers are so slow that the Tempests can kite back behind other units/storms/cannons and the BCs will never get close. I've never seen my army die so fast as when I got BCs vs Protoss in HotS. Dude.. build a raven and drop a pdds.. gg100% Yamato,cannon + HSM are still strong against Pair Unfortunately the BCs are still too slow to actually do any damage before they die. Raven/Viking is what you need vs Tempests (if you're going mech). Whatever.. talking to a wall here...
X_X its not talking to a wall, its pure theorycraft what you both are talking about with only personal experience...
Ive beaten a GM protoss with scvs only. Beat that.
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On April 20 2013 04:08 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 20 2013 04:03 padfoota wrote:On April 20 2013 04:01 FakeDeath wrote:
Actually Mech can still played in TvZ.
Maru show that you can do it but you have to really careful.
(Turret rings, slowly turtling to 4/bases).
And eventually push out with a mech force.
Maybe one day someone will revolutionize the match-up TvZ.
But until then.
It will always be MMMM against Muta/Ling/Bling. Mech is just rather pointless when you need less time per game + less stress with MMMM at the same skill level... Mech is far less micro intensive than Bio-anything. So I guess if micro is your weak point but everything else about your mechanics are good then Mech could be an attractive alternative. You cannot deny that mech requires far more finesse than bio to play - the stress level is still the same since you have to be so careful with the mech army compared to bio, and Ive really never heard of a "short" mech game. When it comes down to builds and strategies, people here are arguing about BCs and yamato and ravens vs tempest when progamers are figuring out the most efficient way of winning the game....and TLers here are trying to figure out the most elaborate way to win.....its just so pointless to go for a 30-40 minute high stress build when a quick 5 rax Scv all in will accomplish the same thing at 14th minute mark.
I actually do deny that mech requires more finesse than bio. Bio is extremely micro intensive if you're vsing a player that is able to trade blows with you evenly (not you just mowing over him). I find mech to be more about making the right mix of units, and having extreme positional play. When it's time to actually engage in a fight as mech, you aren't frantically spreading your units and kitting like a mad man while also managing drops. You're just leapfrogging parts of your army while maybe managing a hellion runby at one of the zerg's bases, or whatever.
Oh, and if you think you can make a 5 rax scv allin work then go for it, a win is a win. This is a strategy game, after all.
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On April 20 2013 04:15 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:14 govie wrote:On April 20 2013 04:08 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On April 20 2013 04:02 govie wrote:On April 20 2013 03:53 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
Second of all, BCs were never viable at the endgame of TvP except on super big maps and you could catch a player by surprise. Feedback + void rays crushed it. Archon toilet was effective as well, just ask MVP. BCs are actually better in Heart of the Swarm, they got a buff. Of course, no one knows that because no one ever builds anything but MMM. Unless you're avilo. I went BCs a lot in WoL TvP. They were infinitely better there than in HotS. In HotS Protoss has Tempests, which hard counter them -- 93 damage per shot, if I recall. The Battlecruisers are so slow that the Tempests can kite back behind other units/storms/cannons and the BCs will never get close. I've never seen my army die so fast as when I got BCs vs Protoss in HotS. Dude.. build a raven and drop a pdds.. gg100% Yamato,cannon + HSM are still strong against Pair Unfortunately the BCs are still too slow to actually do any damage before they die. Raven/Viking is what you need vs Tempests (if you're going mech). Whatever.. talking to a wall here... X_X its not talking to a wall, its pure theorycraft what you both are talking about with only personal experience... Ive beaten a GM protoss with scvs only. Beat that.
did he bm?xD
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On April 20 2013 04:18 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:08 padfoota wrote:On April 20 2013 04:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 20 2013 04:03 padfoota wrote:On April 20 2013 04:01 FakeDeath wrote:
Actually Mech can still played in TvZ.
Maru show that you can do it but you have to really careful.
(Turret rings, slowly turtling to 4/bases).
And eventually push out with a mech force.
Maybe one day someone will revolutionize the match-up TvZ.
But until then.
It will always be MMMM against Muta/Ling/Bling. Mech is just rather pointless when you need less time per game + less stress with MMMM at the same skill level... Mech is far less micro intensive than Bio-anything. So I guess if micro is your weak point but everything else about your mechanics are good then Mech could be an attractive alternative. You cannot deny that mech requires far more finesse than bio to play - the stress level is still the same since you have to be so careful with the mech army compared to bio, and Ive really never heard of a "short" mech game. When it comes down to builds and strategies, people here are arguing about BCs and yamato and ravens vs tempest when progamers are figuring out the most efficient way of winning the game....and TLers here are trying to figure out the most elaborate way to win.....its just so pointless to go for a 30-40 minute high stress build when a quick 5 rax Scv all in will accomplish the same thing at 14th minute mark. I actually do deny that mech requires more finesse than bio. Bio is extremely micro intensive if you're vsing a player that is able to trade blows with you evenly (not you just mowing over him). I find mech to be more about making the right mix of units, and having extreme positional play. When it's time to actually engage in a fight as mech, you aren't frantically spreading your units and kitting like a mad man while also managing drops. You're just leapfrogging parts of your army while maybe managing a hellion runby at one of the zerg's bases, or whatever. Oh, and if you think you can make a 5 rax scv allin work then go for it, a win is a win. This is a strategy game, after all.
D: Then you are what I call a player of the 4th race...I find multiprong drops while microing all of them like a mad man much easier than extreme positional play vs players of the same calibur....its just...the way I was brought up on KR server when everything was about an extreme balance of constant and consistent micro+macro....and brute forcing your way to victory with constant drops that had absolutely no finesse in them, just "mad man" style.
To me, the "extreme positional play" was all about extreme finesse when one wrong siege or bad timing made you lose everything....but then again the last time I played mech was against some GM zerg on SEA server....it ended up being tank hellbat thor mine raven viking bc vs swarmhost hydra viper corrupter on Akilon Wastes....that game was won with mass seeker missile >_>...but then his style simply didnt have anything to do with the multiprong attacks kr zergs could do with nydus, roach hydra, drops, ling runbys and all those weird shit....to know exactly how much units to split and still win on both battles is ridiculous for me....
I actually get scared if Im not attacking as terran. Even when playing mech I want to be super aggressive with my tanks...so Im always looking to abuse some kind of timing window with them
Then again if I recall, Ive only ever really done mech vs protoss...which required something completely different with the whole chargelot archon immortal and chargelot DT drops back in WoL X_X
Regarding the 5 rax SCV all in vs protoss....its actually what the koreans are doing in GSL, you basically just do some damage and delay the units/tech from protoss then go for a timing attack with lots of scvs just before storm/archons. Works really well. Its basically just a quick way of closing out a game that has a chance of dragging on very long into an eventual positional mistake vs storm that costs the entire game :/
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On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras.
I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition
root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta)
You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over.
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On April 20 2013 03:59 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 03:55 Big J wrote:On April 20 2013 03:41 shockaslim wrote:On April 20 2013 03:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 20 2013 03:17 Big J wrote:Well, I'd hope for 3 things (apart from making mech TvP viable...): 1) Fix mutalisks in ZvZ. Playing Terran is fun, but I miss the swarm so much 2) Nerf blinding cloud vs tanks & find a way to make anything not baneling based useful against bio. 3) FIX MUTALISKS IN ZVZ. I myself have been having huge problems with blinding cloud, but I think I could also spread my tanks better vs Zerg anyways so I don't think it should be nerfed until players practice vs it more. That said, I think there are plenty of styles Zergs can use vs Terran that don't involve banelings, people just need to experiment and practice different stuff more. I know nothing about Z v Z xD I think the main problem with blinding cloud and tanks is that if the Zerg army is running at you as you scan, you have zero time to spread tanks, you have to siege them immediately. well, I think that there isn't a big problem with biomech that is tankbased. We see it from time to time in the GSL these days, it's not straigt out dead. But it's a huge problem for mech, were the tanks are your main antiground unit (unless you go for hellbat/thor, which I believe isn't overly viable at the highest level). For anything not banelingy in ZvT. I'm not sure I have seen roach/hydra win yet in the GSL. And that is when Terrans actually keep on producing widow mines against it, not when they just switch into pure Marine/Medivac Marine/Medivac/Tank or Marine/Marauder/Medivac or Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Tank. I don't agree that tanks are your main anti ground as mech (not like in BW). I think widow mines are just as or more important even in a pure mech composition. Also I think banshees and ravens are a must as well. Having hellbats up front to roast lings and soak up damage/make a wall for your tanks is also a given...
hellbats are strong, I don't disagree. But mines are pretty pointless in Mech vs Zerg. If a Zerg goes Muta/ling/bling vs mech you just autowin with mech. If a zerg does anything else, mines aren't really good. (mutas and blings are the only units that the widow mine is truly good against)
Though Thors can kind of take over the job of tanks in low level games, but in highlevel games either swarm hosts or good techswiching forces tanks. And then the vipers just end the game.
On April 20 2013 04:01 FakeDeath wrote:
Actually Mech can still played in TvZ.
It's tough though and very meticulous.
Mech can be screwed by tech switches easily if you can get caught offguard.
Maru show that you can do it but you have to really careful.
(Turret rings, slowly turtling to 4/bases).
And eventually push out with a mech force.
Maybe one day someone will revolutionize the match-up TvZ.
But until then.
It will always be MMMM against Muta/Ling/Bling.
yeah, Marue completly outplayed Soulkey. Still he lost, because at some point he wanted to attack and he wasn't allowed to siege, so he just got run over eventually with his ground mech. (though I believe he would have just won if he had never ever attacked that game. Take all expensions, let the zerg run dry or win with pure 200army supply of BC/Raven (Tank/Viking if needed). He was absolutly in the position to get there)
Well, it will always be MMMM, unless someone figueres something or blizzard tries to fix the matchup, so that it gets past the spam-to-win stage.
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On April 20 2013 04:23 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:18 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 20 2013 04:08 padfoota wrote:On April 20 2013 04:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 20 2013 04:03 padfoota wrote:On April 20 2013 04:01 FakeDeath wrote:
Actually Mech can still played in TvZ.
Maru show that you can do it but you have to really careful.
(Turret rings, slowly turtling to 4/bases).
And eventually push out with a mech force.
Maybe one day someone will revolutionize the match-up TvZ.
But until then.
It will always be MMMM against Muta/Ling/Bling. Mech is just rather pointless when you need less time per game + less stress with MMMM at the same skill level... Mech is far less micro intensive than Bio-anything. So I guess if micro is your weak point but everything else about your mechanics are good then Mech could be an attractive alternative. You cannot deny that mech requires far more finesse than bio to play - the stress level is still the same since you have to be so careful with the mech army compared to bio, and Ive really never heard of a "short" mech game. When it comes down to builds and strategies, people here are arguing about BCs and yamato and ravens vs tempest when progamers are figuring out the most efficient way of winning the game....and TLers here are trying to figure out the most elaborate way to win.....its just so pointless to go for a 30-40 minute high stress build when a quick 5 rax Scv all in will accomplish the same thing at 14th minute mark. I actually do deny that mech requires more finesse than bio. Bio is extremely micro intensive if you're vsing a player that is able to trade blows with you evenly (not you just mowing over him). I find mech to be more about making the right mix of units, and having extreme positional play. When it's time to actually engage in a fight as mech, you aren't frantically spreading your units and kitting like a mad man while also managing drops. You're just leapfrogging parts of your army while maybe managing a hellion runby at one of the zerg's bases, or whatever. Oh, and if you think you can make a 5 rax scv allin work then go for it, a win is a win. This is a strategy game, after all. D: Then you are what I call a player of the 4th race...I find multiprong drops while microing all of them like a mad man much easier than extreme positional play vs players of the same calibur....its just...the way I was brought up on KR server when everything was about an extreme balance of constant and consistent micro+macro....and brute forcing your way to victory with constant drops that had absolutely no finesse in them, just "mad man" style. To me, the "extreme positional play" was all about extreme finesse when one wrong siege or bad timing made you lose everything....but then again the last time I played mech was against some GM zerg on SEA server....it ended up being tank hellbat thor mine raven viking bc vs swarmhost hydra viper corrupter on Akilon Wastes....that game was won with mass seeker missile >_>...but then his style simply didnt have anything to do with the multiprong attacks kr zergs could do with nydus, roach hydra, drops, ling runbys and all those weird shit....to know exactly how much units to split and still win on both battles is ridiculous for me.... I actually get scared if Im not attacking as terran. Even when playing mech I want to be super aggressive with my tanks...so Im always looking to abuse some kind of timing window with themThen again if I recall, Ive only ever really done mech vs protoss...which required something completely different with the whole chargelot archon immortal and chargelot DT drops back in WoL X_X Regarding the 5 rax SCV all in vs protoss....its actually what the koreans are doing in GSL, you basically just do some damage and delay the units/tech from protoss then go for a timing attack with lots of scvs just before storm/archons. Works really well. Its basically just a quick way of closing out a game that has a chance of dragging on very long into an eventual positional mistake vs storm that costs the entire game :/
Well honestly it sounds like you're a better player than me. Frantically microing bio and managing drops/multi pronged harass all over the map requires quite high mechanics imo, and I can get sloppy with it if my opponent is able to keep up with me evenly (even with 300 + avg apm).
While on the other hand, mech for me is a slower pace, and the hardest part about it is not getting caught off guard by tech switches. So long as you have kept some sort of pressure up, whether that be through banshee pokes or hellion runbys/drops, you should be able to have some sort of an idea of what he is up to and react appropriately. I also think people underestimate how strong good sim city can be with mech, especially if you get the building armor upgrade :D.
However, the underlined part is something I agree with completely. It's nice to know I'm not the only terran player that has grown this horrible habit of feeling the need to constantly (and I do mean constantly) screw with my opponent. I had it stuck in my head for so long through WoL that if I wasn't doing something with my units at all times then I was losing.
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On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over.
I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost.
This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of.
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On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. You are putting words into my mouth (which seems to be a common theme with your posts). I did not say that at all. I said Protoss needs 4-5 colossus to SURVIVE against swarm hosts. Not to win against them. 4-5 colossus with gateway unit support does not beat swarmhost/viper/hydra (which isn't actually an unreasonable composition to get. You go swarm host/hydra, tech to hive, then get vipers. I see it all the time). That fight should not even be close unless the zerg really screws up. You pull the colossus in, kill at least a couple of them them, and then Protoss doesn't have the ability to fight anymore because they can't face swarmhosts without splash.
And the ROOT guys using it is totally relevant. They are showing that there is in fact potential with swarm hosts and that people need to experiment more rather than keep the stupid Idra defeatist mentality most Zergs have. The ROOT guys did the same thing with infestors right before they became incredibly common in all matchups. While they were winning a ton with infestors, everyone else was still dismissing them as useless units and whining about Zerg being impossible to win with.
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EPT
