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On April 20 2013 22:00 LSN wrote:
I think a good way to change swarmhosts is to increase time between spawns, let them spawn 4 locusts instead of 2 and make them a bit more expensive. This way they are more easily attackable (increased time between spawns) and you could build them in lower numbers and still have a use for them. Now swarmhosts in numbers of 10-15+ are too strong and hosts in numbers of 1-8 too weak.
The problem of corruptors in ZvZ is that mutas can fly away from them and corruptors cant attack ground. This is why they are useless. The mutalisk zerg could easily transition into roach/hydra when he spots corruptors.
Terrible idea because you focus the power of the Swarm Host even more on one moment in time.
This "focusing of power" is part of the reason why the Infestor was so absolutely overpowered (and probably still is) ... because they could - in theory - spawn 8 supply worth of fighting units for their 2 supply. This is far too powerful and making the same mistake with the Swarm Host is not going to improve the game.
The opposite might be a good choice for making the Swarm Host less powerful ... spawn only one locust at a time and with half the cooldown (locust stats remain the same). You wont be swamped with them that way and instead get a constant stream of locusts which - due to the lower numbers - can be handled by a smaller amount of units, but if you let both locusts of a cycle gather outside your base it will still be just as powerful as it is now.
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@Rabiator (sorry for misspelling at first!)
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats.
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On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats.
Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels.
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On April 21 2013 03:10 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats. Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels.
I haven't actually had the chance to play HotS multi player (because my brother usurped my account to play custom games 24/7 :p) , but I would think that at lower levels it's also quite difficult to be as active with mutalisks as you would like. Furthermore, given that builds are less tight, it becomes easier to justify simply building five spore crawlers per base. I'd like to hear from someone with recent ~gold league experience about ZvZ in HotS though.
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Swarm hosts are so f'ing imbalanced on maps where if you control the middle with them, you're defending all of your expansions. Even if you kill all of the expos and tech, if you can't retreat, there's just no way to be cost effective. P vs Z is in so much worse shape than broodlord, infestors WoL. It was a horrible watching experience, but at least they were easy to out maneuver and they couldn't start stock piling them from the start of the game.
Balance aside, how about that swarm host micro. Man, top 3 locust control. What a ridiculous inclusion of a unit. Just what esports needs, a no skill, free spawning unit from the get go.
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On April 20 2013 16:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On April 20 2013 05:05 Grumbels wrote:I sometimes wish that Team Liquid would use the Elitist Jerks forum rules, it would certainly improve this thread! + Show Spoiler +1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence.
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10. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. On April 20 2013 05:01 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of. You don't reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, that's why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costly support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there. Well, they currently don't reach critical mass that quickly but that could easily change with just a few stat tweaks. I think they are a unit that's difficult to balance and I prefer them to be a little weak over them being a little strong. imo they should make SHs better in smaller numbers while not making them stronger in high numbers. that in combination with a hydra buff would mean Z could finally be aggressive again without going muta. for example they could make locusts have more hp but also be bigger so that they block each other in high numbers (the locusts in the 2nd or 3rd row wont even attack). as for hydras....well they really suck without hivetech support so just give them 6 baserange and 10-20 more hp to make them viable. (and totally rework them to 1 supply and other stats in LotV!). basically every pro in every MU going roach hydra in midgame lost in lets say 70%+...maybe loserate is even higher... I think hydras are pretty much were they should be. We don't need a second marine in the game... If zerg needs a better antiair in the lategame, I think T3 queen & crawler offcreep speed upgrades would be a cool way to do it. For Swarm Hosts... the most annoying thing to me is how clunky they are. If you: rightclick send + shift burrow + shift rightclick for set rally point what happens is that they run to a location, try to all burrow in the same spot and run around weirdly before burrowing and then they don't set a rally point. So that kind of commands is not possible. Instead you have to wait for all of them to reach a location, tell them to burrow, wait for them to finish the burrow animiation and set rally points, wait for the locusts to spawn. Only after all this is done, you can start repositioning them or start controlling the locusts etc... It's like you have to watch one screen for 5-10seconds, just to set everything up. I think it would be cool if they were just a little faster, burrow wouldn't take so long and a queued rightclick after burrow would lead to a set rally point.
Currently, I'm against any buffs to Swarm Hosts, with exception to making their AI smart enough to work with shift-click. That's a good game design choice regardless of balance considerations. I'd rather see SHs used to their full potential, then make balance choices. Another reasonable change is the Medivac only being Marine sized on the minimap. Make it bigger.
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On April 21 2013 05:44 playa wrote:
Swarm hosts are so f'ing imbalanced on maps where if you control the middle with them, you're defending all of your expansions. Even if you kill all of the expos and tech, if you can't retreat, there's just no way to be cost effective. P vs Z is in so much worse shape than broodlord, infestors WoL. It was a horrible watching experience, but at least they were easy to out maneuver and they couldn't start stock piling them from the start of the game.
Balance aside, how about that swarm host micro. Man, top 3 locust control. What a ridiculous inclusion of a unit. Just what esports needs, a no skill, free spawning unit from the get go.
I have a post about swarm host micro here, I'm curious about your opinion.
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On April 21 2013 04:12 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 03:10 Rabiator wrote:On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats. Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels. I haven't actually had the chance to play HotS multi player (because my brother usurped my account to play custom games 24/7 :p) , but I would think that at lower levels it's also quite difficult to be as active with mutalisks as you would like. Furthermore, given that builds are less tight, it becomes easier to justify simply building five spore crawlers per base. I'd like to hear from someone with recent ~gold league experience about ZvZ in HotS though.
The thing is that at lower levels you have fewer units and thus less firepower. With the regeneration on Mutalisks it will make sure that more of them are around with better hit points for the next fight ... and thats where the snowballing starts. You cant kill them with your lower numbers and on top of that they return much stronger next fight with a few more buddies. Professionals know how to get enough Marines and whatnot to at least scare them away, but casual players wont react in time to save their workers from just a few Mutas ... OR they have to build turrets everywhere to counter such a threat and then are behind with their army due to these "immobile fighting resources".
Blizzard has no clue about the lower league players and they simply dont care. That much was clear from the start because the top focus of SC2 was always eSport ... Professional drivers might be able to drive a car through a rallye stage or a city at 100 miles per hour, but your everyday driver can not. It is as simple as that.
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On April 21 2013 16:15 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 04:12 Grumbels wrote:On April 21 2013 03:10 Rabiator wrote:On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats. Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels. I haven't actually had the chance to play HotS multi player (because my brother usurped my account to play custom games 24/7 :p) , but I would think that at lower levels it's also quite difficult to be as active with mutalisks as you would like. Furthermore, given that builds are less tight, it becomes easier to justify simply building five spore crawlers per base. I'd like to hear from someone with recent ~gold league experience about ZvZ in HotS though. The thing is that at lower levels you have fewer units and thus less firepower. With the regeneration on Mutalisks it will make sure that more of them are around with better hit points for the next fight ... and thats where the snowballing starts. You cant kill them with your lower numbers and on top of that they return much stronger next fight with a few more buddies. Professionals know how to get enough Marines and whatnot to at least scare them away, but casual players wont react in time to save their workers from just a few Mutas ... OR they have to build turrets everywhere to counter such a threat and then are behind with their army due to these "immobile fighting resources". Blizzard has no clue about the lower league players and they simply dont care. That much was clear from the start because the top focus of SC2 was always eSport ... Professional drivers might be able to drive a car through a rallye stage or a city at 100 miles per hour, but your everyday driver can not. It is as simple as that.
1. its good blizzard balances as highest level
2. a lot of stuff in lower leagues is "broken" but every race has it: banelings, fungals, storm, colossus, mech, widow mines, voidrays etc.
3. as for your specific problem: widow mines deal with everything even at GSL level so they are a MUCH bigger problem than mutas on every play level.
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On April 21 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 16:15 Rabiator wrote:On April 21 2013 04:12 Grumbels wrote:On April 21 2013 03:10 Rabiator wrote:On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats. Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels. I haven't actually had the chance to play HotS multi player (because my brother usurped my account to play custom games 24/7 :p) , but I would think that at lower levels it's also quite difficult to be as active with mutalisks as you would like. Furthermore, given that builds are less tight, it becomes easier to justify simply building five spore crawlers per base. I'd like to hear from someone with recent ~gold league experience about ZvZ in HotS though. The thing is that at lower levels you have fewer units and thus less firepower. With the regeneration on Mutalisks it will make sure that more of them are around with better hit points for the next fight ... and thats where the snowballing starts. You cant kill them with your lower numbers and on top of that they return much stronger next fight with a few more buddies. Professionals know how to get enough Marines and whatnot to at least scare them away, but casual players wont react in time to save their workers from just a few Mutas ... OR they have to build turrets everywhere to counter such a threat and then are behind with their army due to these "immobile fighting resources". Blizzard has no clue about the lower league players and they simply dont care. That much was clear from the start because the top focus of SC2 was always eSport ... Professional drivers might be able to drive a car through a rallye stage or a city at 100 miles per hour, but your everyday driver can not. It is as simple as that. 1. its good blizzard balances as highest level 2. a lot of stuff in lower leagues is "broken" but every race has it: banelings, fungals, storm, colossus, mech, widow mines, voidrays etc. 3. as for your specific problem: widow mines deal with everything even at GSL level so they are a MUCH bigger problem than mutas on every play level.
1. Why is it good that Blizzard creates a game which is "balanced for professionals and broken for the majority of players"? Does this mean we all should drive Formula 1 cars which professionals can handle but most of us will drive into windows or run pedestrians over because they are simply too fast?
2. Why do you think it is acceptable to have "broken stuff" in the game because everyone has it?
3. I was just pointing out why the Muta is stupid now with the regeneration in lower levels. That doesnt affect or judge anything else and something "more broken" doesnt change the fact that the Muta is badly designed with the regeneration.
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On April 21 2013 22:49 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:On April 21 2013 16:15 Rabiator wrote:On April 21 2013 04:12 Grumbels wrote:On April 21 2013 03:10 Rabiator wrote:On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats. Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels. I haven't actually had the chance to play HotS multi player (because my brother usurped my account to play custom games 24/7 :p) , but I would think that at lower levels it's also quite difficult to be as active with mutalisks as you would like. Furthermore, given that builds are less tight, it becomes easier to justify simply building five spore crawlers per base. I'd like to hear from someone with recent ~gold league experience about ZvZ in HotS though. The thing is that at lower levels you have fewer units and thus less firepower. With the regeneration on Mutalisks it will make sure that more of them are around with better hit points for the next fight ... and thats where the snowballing starts. You cant kill them with your lower numbers and on top of that they return much stronger next fight with a few more buddies. Professionals know how to get enough Marines and whatnot to at least scare them away, but casual players wont react in time to save their workers from just a few Mutas ... OR they have to build turrets everywhere to counter such a threat and then are behind with their army due to these "immobile fighting resources". Blizzard has no clue about the lower league players and they simply dont care. That much was clear from the start because the top focus of SC2 was always eSport ... Professional drivers might be able to drive a car through a rallye stage or a city at 100 miles per hour, but your everyday driver can not. It is as simple as that. 1. its good blizzard balances as highest level 2. a lot of stuff in lower leagues is "broken" but every race has it: banelings, fungals, storm, colossus, mech, widow mines, voidrays etc. 3. as for your specific problem: widow mines deal with everything even at GSL level so they are a MUCH bigger problem than mutas on every play level. 1. Why is it good that Blizzard creates a game which is "balanced for professionals and broken for the majority of players"? Does this mean we all should drive Formula 1 cars which professionals can handle but most of us will drive into windows or run pedestrians over because they are simply too fast? 2. Why do you think it is acceptable to have "broken stuff" in the game because everyone has it? 3. I was just pointing out why the Muta is stupid now with the regeneration in lower levels. That doesnt affect or judge anything else and something "more broken" doesnt change the fact that the Muta is badly designed with the regeneration.
1. At "majority of players" level balance has no real effect on winrate, it's about the skill. The QQ about balance is just bs you make to feel less bad about your own lack of skill/knowledge/whatever.
The 450+ pages on this thread is kinda sad really. A videogame is supposed to be fun, not make you rage and bitch about it on the net all day. If you can't handle it just quit, it's not that hard. I did so more than a year ago because I could not stand my friends rage over 8 players game, could not be happier now lol.
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On April 21 2013 22:55 Salteador Neo wrote:
1. At "majority of players" level balance has no real effect on winrate, it's about the skill. The QQ about balance is just bs you make to feel less bad about your own lack of skill/knowledge/whatever.
The 450+ pages on this thread is kinda sad really. A videogame is supposed to be fun, not make you rage and bitch about it on the net all day. If you can't handle it just quit, it's not that hard. I did so more than a year ago because I could not stand my friends rage over 8 players game, could not be happier now lol.
This is absolutely not true, there are and have been many strategies that are unbeatable if your APM and/or reaction time are lower than a certain threshold but become very easy to beat once you exceed that threshold. This pretty much has to be true if the races aren't identical. As long as one race has a composition that, if attack-moved, beats any attack-moved army from another race, you have the a situation where if your APM isn't at a certain point, you can't beat it no matter what you do.
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On April 21 2013 22:49 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:On April 21 2013 16:15 Rabiator wrote:On April 21 2013 04:12 Grumbels wrote:On April 21 2013 03:10 Rabiator wrote:On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats. Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels. I haven't actually had the chance to play HotS multi player (because my brother usurped my account to play custom games 24/7 :p) , but I would think that at lower levels it's also quite difficult to be as active with mutalisks as you would like. Furthermore, given that builds are less tight, it becomes easier to justify simply building five spore crawlers per base. I'd like to hear from someone with recent ~gold league experience about ZvZ in HotS though. The thing is that at lower levels you have fewer units and thus less firepower. With the regeneration on Mutalisks it will make sure that more of them are around with better hit points for the next fight ... and thats where the snowballing starts. You cant kill them with your lower numbers and on top of that they return much stronger next fight with a few more buddies. Professionals know how to get enough Marines and whatnot to at least scare them away, but casual players wont react in time to save their workers from just a few Mutas ... OR they have to build turrets everywhere to counter such a threat and then are behind with their army due to these "immobile fighting resources". Blizzard has no clue about the lower league players and they simply dont care. That much was clear from the start because the top focus of SC2 was always eSport ... Professional drivers might be able to drive a car through a rallye stage or a city at 100 miles per hour, but your everyday driver can not. It is as simple as that. 1. its good blizzard balances as highest level 2. a lot of stuff in lower leagues is "broken" but every race has it: banelings, fungals, storm, colossus, mech, widow mines, voidrays etc. 3. as for your specific problem: widow mines deal with everything even at GSL level so they are a MUCH bigger problem than mutas on every play level. 1. Why is it good that Blizzard creates a game which is "balanced for professionals and broken for the majority of players"? Does this mean we all should drive Formula 1 cars which professionals can handle but most of us will drive into windows or run pedestrians over because they are simply too fast? 2. Why do you think it is acceptable to have "broken stuff" in the game because everyone has it? 3. I was just pointing out why the Muta is stupid now with the regeneration in lower levels. That doesnt affect or judge anything else and something "more broken" doesnt change the fact that the Muta is badly designed with the regeneration.
1. this is the cool thing about starcraft. EVERYBODY gets a formula 1 car...you just need to learn to drive 
2. because it balances things out. yes muta might be broken in lower leagues but since widow mines are even more broken and rape mutas T is fine in lower leagues...it might be even that Z is UP in lower leagues (or overall ^^).
3. see 2.
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On April 21 2013 23:04 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 22:49 Rabiator wrote:On April 21 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:On April 21 2013 16:15 Rabiator wrote:On April 21 2013 04:12 Grumbels wrote:On April 21 2013 03:10 Rabiator wrote:On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats. Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels. I haven't actually had the chance to play HotS multi player (because my brother usurped my account to play custom games 24/7 :p) , but I would think that at lower levels it's also quite difficult to be as active with mutalisks as you would like. Furthermore, given that builds are less tight, it becomes easier to justify simply building five spore crawlers per base. I'd like to hear from someone with recent ~gold league experience about ZvZ in HotS though. The thing is that at lower levels you have fewer units and thus less firepower. With the regeneration on Mutalisks it will make sure that more of them are around with better hit points for the next fight ... and thats where the snowballing starts. You cant kill them with your lower numbers and on top of that they return much stronger next fight with a few more buddies. Professionals know how to get enough Marines and whatnot to at least scare them away, but casual players wont react in time to save their workers from just a few Mutas ... OR they have to build turrets everywhere to counter such a threat and then are behind with their army due to these "immobile fighting resources". Blizzard has no clue about the lower league players and they simply dont care. That much was clear from the start because the top focus of SC2 was always eSport ... Professional drivers might be able to drive a car through a rallye stage or a city at 100 miles per hour, but your everyday driver can not. It is as simple as that. 1. its good blizzard balances as highest level 2. a lot of stuff in lower leagues is "broken" but every race has it: banelings, fungals, storm, colossus, mech, widow mines, voidrays etc. 3. as for your specific problem: widow mines deal with everything even at GSL level so they are a MUCH bigger problem than mutas on every play level. 1. Why is it good that Blizzard creates a game which is "balanced for professionals and broken for the majority of players"? Does this mean we all should drive Formula 1 cars which professionals can handle but most of us will drive into windows or run pedestrians over because they are simply too fast? 2. Why do you think it is acceptable to have "broken stuff" in the game because everyone has it? 3. I was just pointing out why the Muta is stupid now with the regeneration in lower levels. That doesnt affect or judge anything else and something "more broken" doesnt change the fact that the Muta is badly designed with the regeneration. 1. this is the cool thing about starcraft. EVERYBODY gets a formula 1 car...you just need to learn to drive 2. because it balances things out. yes muta might be broken in lower leagues but since widow mines are even more broken and rape mutas T is fine in lower leagues...it might be even that Z is UP in lower leagues (or overall ^^). 3. see 2.
1. Not everyone actually can drive a Formula 1 car and most people would DIE as a result of driving too fast. Thats what speed limits are for. Not everyone WANTS to learn to drive a Formula 1 car and most people (those stupid casuals) just want to have fun playing a game.
As with my analogy from earlier in the thread ... most people know how to ride a bicycle and driving them around is far less dangerous than an F1 car, but you can still have exciting bicycle races as a competition. This is what BW was and SC2 is an F1 race, which is exciting, but not everyone can do it. Since Starcraft is supposed to be a game SOLD TO THE MASSES they would be much better off with a BW type of gameplay. Sure, you would have to actually physically work yourself instead of being lazy and just sitting down and pushing a pedal, but at least everyone already knows how to ride a bike and just needs the physical fitness to do it.
2. What a stupid idea, because it simply means whoever gets to his broken stuff wins. Where is the fun in that? There is zero skill involved in Widow Mines in lower leagues and the same is true for most other broken stuff ... which is basically the point of broken stuff ... low or even less skill with maximum efficiency or safety.
You really need to think about PLAYING FOR FUN and not for winning ... yes, winning can be fun, but its not the only way to have fun playing a computer game.
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On April 21 2013 23:23 Rabiator wrote:
You really need to think about PLAYING FOR FUN and not for winning ... yes, winning can be fun, but its not the only way to have fun playing a computer game.
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
"Playing to win is the most important and most widely misunderstood concept in all of competitive games."
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On April 21 2013 22:49 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:On April 21 2013 16:15 Rabiator wrote:On April 21 2013 04:12 Grumbels wrote:On April 21 2013 03:10 Rabiator wrote:On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats. Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels. I haven't actually had the chance to play HotS multi player (because my brother usurped my account to play custom games 24/7 :p) , but I would think that at lower levels it's also quite difficult to be as active with mutalisks as you would like. Furthermore, given that builds are less tight, it becomes easier to justify simply building five spore crawlers per base. I'd like to hear from someone with recent ~gold league experience about ZvZ in HotS though. The thing is that at lower levels you have fewer units and thus less firepower. With the regeneration on Mutalisks it will make sure that more of them are around with better hit points for the next fight ... and thats where the snowballing starts. You cant kill them with your lower numbers and on top of that they return much stronger next fight with a few more buddies. Professionals know how to get enough Marines and whatnot to at least scare them away, but casual players wont react in time to save their workers from just a few Mutas ... OR they have to build turrets everywhere to counter such a threat and then are behind with their army due to these "immobile fighting resources". Blizzard has no clue about the lower league players and they simply dont care. That much was clear from the start because the top focus of SC2 was always eSport ... Professional drivers might be able to drive a car through a rallye stage or a city at 100 miles per hour, but your everyday driver can not. It is as simple as that. 1. its good blizzard balances as highest level 2. a lot of stuff in lower leagues is "broken" but every race has it: banelings, fungals, storm, colossus, mech, widow mines, voidrays etc. 3. as for your specific problem: widow mines deal with everything even at GSL level so they are a MUCH bigger problem than mutas on every play level. 1. Why is it good that Blizzard creates a game which is "balanced for professionals and broken for the majority of players"? Does this mean we all should drive Formula 1 cars which professionals can handle but most of us will drive into windows or run pedestrians over because they are simply too fast? 2. Why do you think it is acceptable to have "broken stuff" in the game because everyone has it? 3. I was just pointing out why the Muta is stupid now with the regeneration in lower levels. That doesnt affect or judge anything else and something "more broken" doesnt change the fact that the Muta is badly designed with the regeneration.
Because balancing for the majority will most likely screw up the competitive top. A lower level player can always play better where a a pro is already at the max of the current scene. Just imagine if they buff some stuff so lower lvl players will get better with it. A pro with that same buff will absolutely destroy the balance.
"Broken" stuff in general makes stuff more enjoyable to watch as long as it balanced properly. Look at BW, soo much stuff that is broken beyond belief yet it somehow balances through one way or another.
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On April 21 2013 23:33 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 22:49 Rabiator wrote:On April 21 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:On April 21 2013 16:15 Rabiator wrote:On April 21 2013 04:12 Grumbels wrote:On April 21 2013 03:10 Rabiator wrote:On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats. Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels. I haven't actually had the chance to play HotS multi player (because my brother usurped my account to play custom games 24/7 :p) , but I would think that at lower levels it's also quite difficult to be as active with mutalisks as you would like. Furthermore, given that builds are less tight, it becomes easier to justify simply building five spore crawlers per base. I'd like to hear from someone with recent ~gold league experience about ZvZ in HotS though. The thing is that at lower levels you have fewer units and thus less firepower. With the regeneration on Mutalisks it will make sure that more of them are around with better hit points for the next fight ... and thats where the snowballing starts. You cant kill them with your lower numbers and on top of that they return much stronger next fight with a few more buddies. Professionals know how to get enough Marines and whatnot to at least scare them away, but casual players wont react in time to save their workers from just a few Mutas ... OR they have to build turrets everywhere to counter such a threat and then are behind with their army due to these "immobile fighting resources". Blizzard has no clue about the lower league players and they simply dont care. That much was clear from the start because the top focus of SC2 was always eSport ... Professional drivers might be able to drive a car through a rallye stage or a city at 100 miles per hour, but your everyday driver can not. It is as simple as that. 1. its good blizzard balances as highest level 2. a lot of stuff in lower leagues is "broken" but every race has it: banelings, fungals, storm, colossus, mech, widow mines, voidrays etc. 3. as for your specific problem: widow mines deal with everything even at GSL level so they are a MUCH bigger problem than mutas on every play level. 1. Why is it good that Blizzard creates a game which is "balanced for professionals and broken for the majority of players"? Does this mean we all should drive Formula 1 cars which professionals can handle but most of us will drive into windows or run pedestrians over because they are simply too fast? 2. Why do you think it is acceptable to have "broken stuff" in the game because everyone has it? 3. I was just pointing out why the Muta is stupid now with the regeneration in lower levels. That doesnt affect or judge anything else and something "more broken" doesnt change the fact that the Muta is badly designed with the regeneration. Because balancing for the majority will most likely screw up the competitive top. A lower level player can always play better where a a pro is already at the max of the current scene. Just imagine if they buff some stuff so lower lvl players will get better with it. A pro with that same buff will absolutely destroy the balance. "Broken" stuff in general makes stuff more enjoyable to watch as long as it balanced properly. Look at BW, soo much stuff that is broken beyond belief yet it somehow balances through one way or another.
Rofl .... BW wasnt broken for the masses and worked for the competition. At the core of most broken things rests the core design of SC2 ... which centers around HIGH ECONOMY and PRODUCTION BOOSTS and CRITICAL MASSES and LARGE ARMIES IN SMALL AREAS. BW had none of these and I would say - as an example - the Infestor in its original form would NOT be as overpowered if you could only produce a few of them AND they would not clump as tightly as they do in SC2. As a result you would not have the ability to cover a whole area with Fungals and Infested Terrans because your units would be fewer and spread out more.
Blizzard is simply under the delusion which many movie directors have: MORE STUFF will make it better and that is wrong. Watching a Zergling battle between two Zerglings each and then having one player win with both his Zerglings alive is more interesting - in MY opinion - than watching a battle between 50 Roaches on each side. The reason is quite simple: It is the same as for a shark who is faced with a single fish to hunt or a fish swarm ... you simply cant follow the action well enough if the whole screen is covered with units. Quality over quantity.
Yes, BW had broken units, BUT due to the reduced density of units AND the "inability" to use them in critical numbers that game has the far superior core design. Sure, some pros might be able to pull off using critical numbers (several groups of Mutas for example), but the majority could not do it, wheras anyone can get and use critical numbers in SC2 due to the stupid unlimited unit selection and perfectly tight unit movement. SC2 simply focuses too much on the MASS ARMY and CRITICAL NUMBER part which require a much more precise balancing than BW ever did. This is the main reason why BW is better ... because you can get away with broken units at all levels of play!
As an added bonus BW allowed you to stack up your units tightly through manual work for an increased defensive capability, but in SC2 there is no defenders advantage but rather an attackers advantage because they choose the time and place and angle of attack. This is bad design.
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On April 21 2013 23:33 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 22:49 Rabiator wrote:On April 21 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:On April 21 2013 16:15 Rabiator wrote:On April 21 2013 04:12 Grumbels wrote:On April 21 2013 03:10 Rabiator wrote:On April 20 2013 23:10 Grumbels wrote:
@Rabiator
Well, most players steal their builds instead of coming up with strategies and compositions independently, and that's why problems at the pro level often resurface in lower level play, but I think that the balance is good enough that at most levels you can win with pretty much any composition. And therefore mutalisks should not be an existential problem for ZvZ except in the pro scene. And because at the pro level everything depends on these really subtle details, I don't see the problem for specifically targeting ZvZ with a minor damage tweak to the corruptor (assuming the damage bonus fixes the match-up). It might make for confusing unit stats if they all had different damage bonuses to everything, but actually, they already do and most people don't care because they just play the game instead of memorizing stats. Mutalisks become an even bigger problem down the line IMO because of the stupid regeneration. At lower levels people are not fast enough or good enough to mass up ground units to fight regenerating air units which are not blocked by buildings or terrain. As soon as one player has massed up enough Mutalisks to more or less one-shot stuff it becomes too hard to manage and a reason to complain about it ... the game simply becomes too easy because these regenerating units are too safe at lower levels. I haven't actually had the chance to play HotS multi player (because my brother usurped my account to play custom games 24/7 :p) , but I would think that at lower levels it's also quite difficult to be as active with mutalisks as you would like. Furthermore, given that builds are less tight, it becomes easier to justify simply building five spore crawlers per base. I'd like to hear from someone with recent ~gold league experience about ZvZ in HotS though. The thing is that at lower levels you have fewer units and thus less firepower. With the regeneration on Mutalisks it will make sure that more of them are around with better hit points for the next fight ... and thats where the snowballing starts. You cant kill them with your lower numbers and on top of that they return much stronger next fight with a few more buddies. Professionals know how to get enough Marines and whatnot to at least scare them away, but casual players wont react in time to save their workers from just a few Mutas ... OR they have to build turrets everywhere to counter such a threat and then are behind with their army due to these "immobile fighting resources". Blizzard has no clue about the lower league players and they simply dont care. That much was clear from the start because the top focus of SC2 was always eSport ... Professional drivers might be able to drive a car through a rallye stage or a city at 100 miles per hour, but your everyday driver can not. It is as simple as that. 1. its good blizzard balances as highest level 2. a lot of stuff in lower leagues is "broken" but every race has it: banelings, fungals, storm, colossus, mech, widow mines, voidrays etc. 3. as for your specific problem: widow mines deal with everything even at GSL level so they are a MUCH bigger problem than mutas on every play level. 1. Why is it good that Blizzard creates a game which is "balanced for professionals and broken for the majority of players"? Does this mean we all should drive Formula 1 cars which professionals can handle but most of us will drive into windows or run pedestrians over because they are simply too fast? 2. Why do you think it is acceptable to have "broken stuff" in the game because everyone has it? 3. I was just pointing out why the Muta is stupid now with the regeneration in lower levels. That doesnt affect or judge anything else and something "more broken" doesnt change the fact that the Muta is badly designed with the regeneration. Because balancing for the majority will most likely screw up the competitive top. A lower level player can always play better where a a pro is already at the max of the current scene. Just imagine if they buff some stuff so lower lvl players will get better with it. A pro with that same buff will absolutely destroy the balance. "Broken" stuff in general makes stuff more enjoyable to watch as long as it balanced properly. Look at BW, soo much stuff that is broken beyond belief yet it somehow balances through one way or another.
If the game is balanced for the majority it doesn't mean it isn't balanced for the top. You can have it balanced for both groups. Of course there are limits, but that doesn't mean that blizzard should only look at literally the top 10 of the world and ignore it for everyone else.
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Why are you guys even discussing with him based upon an assumption that he has not proven?
Where is any proof for anything being underpowered/overpowered at lower leagues? Specifically about mutalisk regeneration.
Do low League players harass so much with mutalisks that they take a lot of damage that can be regenerated? Do low league players pull back with the mutas in time? Do they even build mutalisks?
So here is some actual data that points towards a very balanced game at the lower leagues. (not to mention that blizzard has said so multiple times)
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
Check the Leagues, check the average point section. All races have similar amounts of points per player. So there is definitely no matchup that is very favored due to skill needed to play a race.
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On April 22 2013 00:14 Big J wrote:Why are you guys even discussing with him based upon an assumption that he has not proven? Where is any proof for anything being underpowered/overpowered at lower leagues? Specifically about mutalisk regeneration. Do low League players harass so much with mutalisks that they take a lot of damage that can be regenerated? Do low league players pull back with the mutas in time? Do they even build mutalisks? So here is some actual data that points towards a very balanced game at the lower leagues. (not to mention that blizzard has said so multiple times) http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allCheck the Leagues, check the average point section. All races have similar amounts of points per player. So there is definitely no matchup that is very favored due to skill needed to play a race.
Nice from you man. But let me tell you thing. I am gold player on EU. Was plat quite long time ago. Whenever I play zerg and he does not go muta... I just roll over him EZ. I have friend in diamond. I have like 90% winrate vs him. He is protoss as well. He goes 7 gate vs zerg(which I never do for I like to play more of macro games). He never allows zerg to get mutas. Ever. So he got promoted to diamond. (Well I could be plat probably if I had more than 6 games played in ranked, but still, dia? WTF man)
So reason why all races have similar amount points for player. Not because everything is balanced, but because everything is inbalanced. Wanna play macro game vs zerg not based on airtoss, based on hightemplars/collosi with some air support (phoenix). Well, even if you start with blinkstalkers and HT, you aint gonna win, you need to begin with 2 stargates as storm is crap vs mutas anywhere above bronze and blinkstalkers are not even funny vs mutas, which kills you if zerg does anything else. And as zerg, all warpgate pushes/ immortal sentry all-ins are quite effective, and if managed by build-master(like my friend in dia), they are OP vs zergs.
I dont think its good if storm is not good vs mutas. Protoss never had many ways to deal with mutas, as archon range is joke when dealing with them, blink stalkers just dont do good for their cost and now, not even storm is effective and phoenixes, even with +1 range feel weaker vs mutas than they felt in WoL, as their relative speed to mutas got halved (from 0.5 to 0.25).
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EPT
