|
On April 20 2013 04:02 Wingblade wrote:
Terran winning 6 fights, and still losing the game? That's a pathetic exaggeration, that maybe happens when they win 2-3 fights because planetaries and simcity give them a massive terrain boost when they were put behind by a mistake they made.
Sadly it's not an exaggeration.
You're completely deluded if you think a PF or supplies walls (lol) compensate a lost fight in lategame TvP. Watch for instance the last fight of this ThorZaIN vs Creator game (28:45 or something like that) to see how much Protoss cares about fighting near a PF.
Ghosts are no more difficult to use than High Templar, and vikings are simply focus-firing. Cueing focus-fire commands is not that hard.
... Again, see for example the aforementioned game to see what happens when Vikings are left on "queue focus fire commands". Surprise surprise, bad things happen if Archons are in the vicinity. You have to position Vikings very carefully and ideally you would want to micro them, but of course this is not possible since meanwhile you also have to hit all EMPs and micro your bio, and unless I'm mistaken even the best Korean Terrans have only two arms.
Good thing Tempests are negated with one PDD. If we can mix in Tempests, mix in PDD to protect the vikings.
If only Tempests had 15 range so they could slowly bomb your position anyway... Plus you have zero spare gas for Ravens when going mass Ghosts/Vikings, but whatever.
Pull your vikings back after a battle.
Thanks for the advice! I had never thought about this, it sounded more fun for me to let lots of 150/75 units die to Archons/Stalkers.
Because pointing out that BCs got a buff and that no one uses them except avilo is the same thing as calling Terrans stupid and unwilling to experiment. Nice strawman.
Ah yes, Battlecruisers can cast a second Yamato when they have full energy. Pity they could never cast the first one in the first place, a) because BCs transitions are impossible in 99.99% of the cases, b) because Feedback. Plus why would anyone use BCs in HotS when Tempests exist is beyond me.
You actually tried to use a game Terran won as proof of your argument.
Yes, because my argument, as you failed to understand it, was not that "Terran always loses to Protoss all-ins," but that Terran was not always able to determine which one would hit him.
Not seeing anything in the main base of the Protoss and no expansion is enough to know that an all-in is coming.
Yes, but which one? One that will hit at front or one that can bypass the ramp?
The blink all-in got nerfed and isn't used much at all anymore.
This is like the most used "all-in" in PvT but whatever.
Why are all-ins that Protoss proxies so good, and yours so useless. I've watched games of proxy marine-hellion drop that beat down Protoss until they GG out.
Never saw any proxy Marine/Hellion drop in HotS at pro level. Maybe you have examples?
Not so much if you just fast expand. And yea sure, if I plan on flying what's basically amounts to a 100/100 defensive mechanic that is slow and who loses to 2 marines in combat across the whole map I can do that.
I am sorry to inform you that MSC pokes are fairly common. And for your knowloedge, it takes 3 Marines to kill a MSC, not 2. Which is not relevant at all anyway because you're not supposed to fight those Marines with the MSC, you just use its wide sight to see what Terran is doing.
|
On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over.
I adapted what I saw catz and vibe have been doing vs "low NA GMs and KR masters" and have used it with something like 80% winrate vs KR GMs. Swarm-host-viper-hydra with infestor support and masses of spore/spine is exceptionally powerful on small maps where it's easy to defend counterattacks and zone out warp prisms.
Also 4-5 collosi get dominated and i mean DOMINATED by 15 swarm hosts. As long as the zerg adjusts his SH count to how much the Protoss commits to ground army it should always be able to whittle away.
Swarm hosts are indeed really good, but yes, if you aren't able to catch your opponent unprepared they take a loong time to get the work done and you have to build a ridiculous amount of static, which is of course reminiscent of the old broodlord-infestor boring waiting games. I think everyone agrees that swarm-hosts haven't found a use vs bio-mine yet as speedivacs render them near useless. In ZvZ they have been used to great effect but it's hard to ever get past mutas in 90% of games.
|
On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of.
Blizzards plan was to make SHs the standard mid game tech choice. I find it interesting because they want us to play more agressive and have a decent mid game tech choice and hydras are a little bid too expensive for what they bring, and they cant really siege a base because of ramps etc. Anyway if you want to make them situational, then better buff the hell out of hydras and/or other units because we are running out of options (in wol we could only survive the mid game pressure because of infestors but now they are not a very good option anymore).
and I am not asking for a huge buff, I just cant stand people saying that they are good just because 3 or 4 semipros can win with them against some KR masters or the bad NA players.
Also you dont reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, thats why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costy support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there.
|
I sometimes wish that Team Liquid would use the Elitist Jerks forum rules, it would certainly improve this thread!
+ Show Spoiler +1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence.
2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it.
3. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending.
4. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting.
5. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it.
6. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.)
7. Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author.
8. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting.
9. Do not sign your post. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile.
10. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate.
On April 20 2013 05:01 Dudasc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of. You don't reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, that's why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costly support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there.
Well, they currently don't reach critical mass that quickly but that could easily change with just a few stat tweaks. I think they are a unit that's difficult to balance and I prefer them to be a little weak over them being a little strong.
|
On April 20 2013 05:05 Grumbels wrote:I sometimes wish that Team Liquid would use the Elitist Jerks forum rules, it would certainly improve this thread! + Show Spoiler +1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence.
2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it.
3. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending.
4. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting.
5. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it.
6. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.)
7. Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author.
8. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting.
9. Do not sign your post. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile.
10. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 05:01 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of. You don't reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, that's why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costly support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there. Well, they currently don't reach critical mass that quickly but that could easily change with just a few stat tweaks. I think they are a unit that's difficult to balance and I prefer them to be a little weak over them being a little strong.
Yeah, I agree it's hard to balance such unit, but considering the zerg WRs situation I think it wouldnt hurt that much if they buff SHs a little bit, it could be something like faster movespeed, burrow/unburrow time or higher locusts range.
I also loved the elite jerks forum, always read it when I played wow.. really good info and writing, I am not gonna overextend myself here because it's off topic.
|
On April 20 2013 05:05 Grumbels wrote:I sometimes wish that Team Liquid would use the Elitist Jerks forum rules, it would certainly improve this thread! + Show Spoiler +1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence.
2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it.
3. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending.
4. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting.
5. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it.
6. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.)
7. Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author.
8. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting.
9. Do not sign your post. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile.
10. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 05:01 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of. You don't reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, that's why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costly support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there. Well, they currently don't reach critical mass that quickly but that could easily change with just a few stat tweaks. I think they are a unit that's difficult to balance and I prefer them to be a little weak over them being a little strong.
imo they should make SHs better in smaller numbers while not making them stronger in high numbers. that in combination with a hydra buff would mean Z could finally be aggressive again without going muta.
for example they could make locusts have more hp but also be bigger so that they block each other in high numbers (the locusts in the 2nd or 3rd row wont even attack). as for hydras....well they really suck without hivetech support so just give them 6 baserange and 10-20 more hp to make them viable. (and totally rework them to 1 supply and other stats in LotV!). basically every pro in every MU going roach hydra in midgame lost in lets say 70%+...maybe loserate is even higher...
|
On April 20 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 05:05 Grumbels wrote:I sometimes wish that Team Liquid would use the Elitist Jerks forum rules, it would certainly improve this thread! + Show Spoiler +1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence.
2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it.
3. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending.
4. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting.
5. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it.
6. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.)
7. Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author.
8. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting.
9. Do not sign your post. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile.
10. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. On April 20 2013 05:01 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of. You don't reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, that's why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costly support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there. Well, they currently don't reach critical mass that quickly but that could easily change with just a few stat tweaks. I think they are a unit that's difficult to balance and I prefer them to be a little weak over them being a little strong. imo they should make SHs better in smaller numbers while not making them stronger in high numbers. that in combination with a hydra buff would mean Z could finally be aggressive again without going muta. for example they could make locusts have more hp but also be bigger so that they block each other in high numbers (the locusts in the 2nd or 3rd row wont even attack). as for hydras....well they really suck without hivetech support so just give them 6 baserange and 10-20 more hp to make them viable. (and totally rework them to 1 supply and other stats in LotV!).
I think that locusts range and size are good measurements on that matter. If you make 50 SHs only the locusts of some of them will be able to do damage because of the surface area (calculated based on locusts range and size).
I also think that with their current size and range right now SHs don´t look too strong in high numbers mainly if you consider that they need support. Actually most pros stop making when the unit count gets to 15-20.
|
I only really watch starcraft but since you guys are citing tournaments.
If protoss truly is underpowered why are proleague teams willing to field out protoss players over other races when we're in such crucial rounds. I personally think the game is at a good place right now where the better player wins and all the banter in this thread is mostly just ladder frustration projecting.
Edit: Especially compared to the last few months of WoL
|
On April 20 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 05:05 Grumbels wrote:I sometimes wish that Team Liquid would use the Elitist Jerks forum rules, it would certainly improve this thread! + Show Spoiler +1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence.
2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it.
3. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending.
4. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting.
5. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it.
6. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.)
7. Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author.
8. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting.
9. Do not sign your post. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile.
10. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. On April 20 2013 05:01 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of. You don't reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, that's why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costly support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there. Well, they currently don't reach critical mass that quickly but that could easily change with just a few stat tweaks. I think they are a unit that's difficult to balance and I prefer them to be a little weak over them being a little strong. imo they should make SHs better in smaller numbers while not making them stronger in high numbers. that in combination with a hydra buff would mean Z could finally be aggressive again without going muta. for example they could make locusts have more hp but also be bigger so that they block each other in high numbers (the locusts in the 2nd or 3rd row wont even attack). as for hydras....well they really suck without hivetech support so just give them 6 baserange and 10-20 more hp to make them viable. (and totally rework them to 1 supply and other stats in LotV!). basically every pro in every MU going roach hydra in midgame lost in lets say 70%+...maybe loserate is even higher...
Blocking each other wont really make them less powerful in large numbers, because one of the most annoying points about "free units" (such as the Broodlings from a Broodlord or the Infested Terrans) is that they can block the path for enemy units. Thus bigger Locusts with more hp will make them become better tanks and shields (against Zealots for example) ... and it wont stop them from tearing down an enemy base either.
"better in smaller numbers while not making them stronger in high numbers" is such a delusional wishful thinking concept that goes totally against everything which Blizzard does, because they are all about CRITICAL NUMBERS in their unit design. Just think about all the units ... Personally I have always thought this is a terrible way to design the game, because it creates "pushover armies" which become somewhat invulnerable and have too easy wins, but Blizzard likes their massive economy and boosted production and the super tight unit movement.
The only way to cut off the critical numbers is to reduce the numbers of units by a) spreading them out to make them less concentrated and b) reducing the economy and production capabilities to reduce the total number of units on the battlefield. Blizzard does not see critical numbers as a problem though ... which is really bad ... and they still are under the delusion of "more action = better game", which is just as false as saying that a 1v1 duel in a western is less exciting compared to a special effects stuffed space battle in Star Wars. The "bigger" battle is more confusing and sometimes harder to follow just as a shark sometimes has problems focusing on one fish in a swarm of prey.
|
On April 20 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 05:05 Grumbels wrote:I sometimes wish that Team Liquid would use the Elitist Jerks forum rules, it would certainly improve this thread! + Show Spoiler +1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence.
2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it.
3. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending.
4. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting.
5. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it.
6. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.)
7. Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author.
8. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting.
9. Do not sign your post. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile.
10. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. On April 20 2013 05:01 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of. You don't reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, that's why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costly support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there. Well, they currently don't reach critical mass that quickly but that could easily change with just a few stat tweaks. I think they are a unit that's difficult to balance and I prefer them to be a little weak over them being a little strong. imo they should make SHs better in smaller numbers while not making them stronger in high numbers. that in combination with a hydra buff would mean Z could finally be aggressive again without going muta. for example they could make locusts have more hp but also be bigger so that they block each other in high numbers (the locusts in the 2nd or 3rd row wont even attack). as for hydras....well they really suck without hivetech support so just give them 6 baserange and 10-20 more hp to make them viable. (and totally rework them to 1 supply and other stats in LotV!). basically every pro in every MU going roach hydra in midgame lost in lets say 70%+...maybe loserate is even higher...
I think hydras are pretty much were they should be. We don't need a second marine in the game... If zerg needs a better antiair in the lategame, I think T3 queen & crawler offcreep speed upgrades would be a cool way to do it.
For Swarm Hosts... the most annoying thing to me is how clunky they are. If you:
rightclick send + shift burrow + shift rightclick for set rally point
what happens is that they run to a location, try to all burrow in the same spot and run around weirdly before burrowing and then they don't set a rally point. So that kind of commands is not possible.
Instead you have to wait for all of them to reach a location, tell them to burrow, wait for them to finish the burrow animiation and set rally points, wait for the locusts to spawn. Only after all this is done, you can start repositioning them or start controlling the locusts etc... It's like you have to watch one screen for 5-10seconds, just to set everything up.
I think it would be cool if they were just a little faster, burrow wouldn't take so long and a queued rightclick after burrow would lead to a set rally point.
|
On April 20 2013 04:59 PiGStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. Also 4-5 collosi get dominated and i mean DOMINATED by 15 swarm hosts. As long as the zerg adjusts his SH count to how much the Protoss commits to ground army it should always be able to whittle away. Swarm hosts are indeed really good
Agreeing with this. Swarmhosts have shown to be ridiculously good at about all levels of play up to low KR GM (and possibly even higher once people start figuring out how strong they are) when handled correctly, but the catch is people aren't handling them correctly; it essentially forces your opponent to have to transition into air or base trade which isn't always possible.
|
On April 20 2013 16:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On April 20 2013 05:05 Grumbels wrote:I sometimes wish that Team Liquid would use the Elitist Jerks forum rules, it would certainly improve this thread! + Show Spoiler +1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence.
2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it.
3. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending.
4. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting.
5. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it.
6. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.)
7. Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author.
8. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting.
9. Do not sign your post. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile.
10. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. On April 20 2013 05:01 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of. You don't reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, that's why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costly support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there. Well, they currently don't reach critical mass that quickly but that could easily change with just a few stat tweaks. I think they are a unit that's difficult to balance and I prefer them to be a little weak over them being a little strong. imo they should make SHs better in smaller numbers while not making them stronger in high numbers. that in combination with a hydra buff would mean Z could finally be aggressive again without going muta. for example they could make locusts have more hp but also be bigger so that they block each other in high numbers (the locusts in the 2nd or 3rd row wont even attack). as for hydras....well they really suck without hivetech support so just give them 6 baserange and 10-20 more hp to make them viable. (and totally rework them to 1 supply and other stats in LotV!). basically every pro in every MU going roach hydra in midgame lost in lets say 70%+...maybe loserate is even higher... I think hydras are pretty much were they should be. We don't need a second marine in the game... If zerg needs a better antiair in the lategame, I think T3 queen & crawler offcreep speed upgrades would be a cool way to do it. For Swarm Hosts... the most annoying thing to me is how clunky they are. If you: rightclick send + shift burrow + shift rightclick for set rally point what happens is that they run to a location, try to all burrow in the same spot and run around weirdly before burrowing and then they don't set a rally point. So that kind of commands is not possible. Instead you have to wait for all of them to reach a location, tell them to burrow, wait for them to finish the burrow animiation and set rally points, wait for the locusts to spawn. Only after all this is done, you can start repositioning them or start controlling the locusts etc... It's like you have to watch one screen for 5-10seconds, just to set everything up. I think it would be cool if they were just a little faster, burrow wouldn't take so long and a queued rightclick after burrow would lead to a set rally point.
agree on the SH thing. that would also be a way to fix them. let them be controlled better and not yet another retard unit pathing wise like the ultra...
disagree on the hydra thing. right now you cant play hydras in midgame. they just suck....insanely. you NEED viper to make them somewhat useful which is just bad. and its not like with viper they become superstrong or something since til then counters to both viper and hydra like HT are out. roach hydra was proven to be really REALLY bad in ALL MU which means something still is terribly wrong with the hydra.
and that is not at all surprising. hydras are 95% the same shitty unit they were in wol. basically nothing changed which is very sad. oh and please dont compare hydras with marines. they would need like 10 buffs to become marinelike. 1-2 buffs wont make them as strong as marines....not by far ^^
|
On April 20 2013 17:00 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:59 PiGStarcraft wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. Also 4-5 collosi get dominated and i mean DOMINATED by 15 swarm hosts. As long as the zerg adjusts his SH count to how much the Protoss commits to ground army it should always be able to whittle away. Swarm hosts are indeed really good Agreeing with this. Swarmhosts have shown to be ridiculously good at about all levels of play up to low KR GM (and possibly even higher once people start figuring out how strong they are) when handled correctly, but the catch is people aren't handling them correctly; it essentially forces your opponent to have to transition into air or base trade which isn't always possible.
so
-) not even lose a single colossus to a wave on amove
-) easily win any battle
-) don't even get touched if behind a wall
-) gets hardly touched if microed at all
is the new definition of "getting dominated".
(if you don't believe me, go test it yourself, there are enough unit testers out there that you can try)
On April 20 2013 17:20 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 16:28 Big J wrote:On April 20 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On April 20 2013 05:05 Grumbels wrote:I sometimes wish that Team Liquid would use the Elitist Jerks forum rules, it would certainly improve this thread! + Show Spoiler +1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence.
2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it.
3. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending.
4. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting.
5. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it.
6. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.)
7. Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author.
8. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting.
9. Do not sign your post. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile.
10. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. On April 20 2013 05:01 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:
[quote]He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now.
Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of. You don't reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, that's why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costly support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there. Well, they currently don't reach critical mass that quickly but that could easily change with just a few stat tweaks. I think they are a unit that's difficult to balance and I prefer them to be a little weak over them being a little strong. imo they should make SHs better in smaller numbers while not making them stronger in high numbers. that in combination with a hydra buff would mean Z could finally be aggressive again without going muta. for example they could make locusts have more hp but also be bigger so that they block each other in high numbers (the locusts in the 2nd or 3rd row wont even attack). as for hydras....well they really suck without hivetech support so just give them 6 baserange and 10-20 more hp to make them viable. (and totally rework them to 1 supply and other stats in LotV!). basically every pro in every MU going roach hydra in midgame lost in lets say 70%+...maybe loserate is even higher... I think hydras are pretty much were they should be. We don't need a second marine in the game... If zerg needs a better antiair in the lategame, I think T3 queen & crawler offcreep speed upgrades would be a cool way to do it. For Swarm Hosts... the most annoying thing to me is how clunky they are. If you: rightclick send + shift burrow + shift rightclick for set rally point what happens is that they run to a location, try to all burrow in the same spot and run around weirdly before burrowing and then they don't set a rally point. So that kind of commands is not possible. Instead you have to wait for all of them to reach a location, tell them to burrow, wait for them to finish the burrow animiation and set rally points, wait for the locusts to spawn. Only after all this is done, you can start repositioning them or start controlling the locusts etc... It's like you have to watch one screen for 5-10seconds, just to set everything up. I think it would be cool if they were just a little faster, burrow wouldn't take so long and a queued rightclick after burrow would lead to a set rally point. agree on the SH thing. that would also be a way to fix them. let them be controlled better and not yet another retard unit pathing wise like the ultra... disagree on the hydra thing. right now you cant play hydras in midgame. they just suck....insanely. you NEED viper to make them somewhat useful which is just bad. and its not like with viper they become superstrong or something since til then counters to both viper and hydra like HT are out. roach hydra was proven to be really REALLY bad in ALL MU which means something still is terribly wrong with the hydra. and that is not at all surprising. hydras are 95% the same shitty unit they were in wol. basically nothing changed which is very sad. oh and please dont compare hydras with marines. they would need like 10 buffs to become marinelike. 1-2 buffs wont make them as strong as marines....not by far ^^
(Roach/)Hydra is pretty good in the midgame. They have their downsides in the lategame, no matter how much you support them, which I totally agree with. But this is zerg we are talking about, switching out of hydras and only using them as a support (antiair, medivac killer, prism defense) from there on is quite enough in my opinion. (that's what I mean with "not another marine". I don't want this game to become a spambattle of universal low tier units that you only need to support properly. If I wanted that, I could play any CnC game and tankrush all day long)
The question is rather - where to transition to with all your range army. I'd say, that's the biggest problem. On the range path there is no real lategame combat unit, though I think with swarm hosts + vipers/infestors and hydra support there are still a lot of things that could be figuered out.
|
On April 20 2013 04:59 PiGStarcraft wrote:
Also 4-5 collosi get dominated and i mean DOMINATED by 15 swarm hosts. As long as the zerg adjusts his SH count to how much the Protoss commits to ground army it should always be able to whittle away.
15 Swarm Hosts = 3000/1500 for 45 supply
5 Colossi = 1500/1000 for 30 supply
Cost per supply:
67/33 for Swarm Host
50/33 for Colossus
So mathematically the SH should be better than the Colossus because it costs more. Obviously this is irrelevant because it isnt the way such a game should be designed and the balance of units also comes down to maps and how units can be used AND how safely these units are (safer = increased cost efficiency).
"Attack by proxy units" (Broodlord, Infestor, Carrier, SH) are usually extremely powerful because the unit itself can take care not to endanger itself. They are pretty cost efficient and in the case of Zerg units not even the proxies cost anything other than a ridiculously low 25 energy for the Infested Terran which doesnt matter if it is spammed to create a really large army for a short time (which is usually enough for a battle). Compared to the burrowing Swarm Host the Colossus is a combat unit with an achilles heel and thus better designed. The design gives the Swarm Host a rather safer life and people are wondering that the SH can be super powerful?
|
On April 20 2013 17:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 17:00 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 20 2013 04:59 PiGStarcraft wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:07 FakeDeath wrote:
Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet. He better not buff swarm hosts just so people use them. Those things are strong enough as is. It will be the infestor all over again if that happens. Not to mention people are starting to use them now. Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks.. The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm. I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. Also 4-5 collosi get dominated and i mean DOMINATED by 15 swarm hosts. As long as the zerg adjusts his SH count to how much the Protoss commits to ground army it should always be able to whittle away. Swarm hosts are indeed really good Agreeing with this. Swarmhosts have shown to be ridiculously good at about all levels of play up to low KR GM (and possibly even higher once people start figuring out how strong they are) when handled correctly, but the catch is people aren't handling them correctly; it essentially forces your opponent to have to transition into air or base trade which isn't always possible. so -) not even lose a single colossus to a wave on amove -) easily win any battle -) don't even get touched if behind a wall -) gets hardly touched if microed at all is the new definition of "getting dominated". (if you don't believe me, go test it yourself, there are enough unit testers out there that you can try) Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 17:20 Decendos wrote:On April 20 2013 16:28 Big J wrote:On April 20 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:On April 20 2013 05:05 Grumbels wrote:I sometimes wish that Team Liquid would use the Elitist Jerks forum rules, it would certainly improve this thread! + Show Spoiler +1. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence.
2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it.
3. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending.
4. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting.
5. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it.
6. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.)
7. Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author.
8. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting.
9. Do not sign your post. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile.
10. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. On April 20 2013 05:01 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 04:45 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 04:31 Dudasc wrote:On April 20 2013 03:28 Ben... wrote:On April 20 2013 02:33 Dudasc wrote:
[quote]
Most pro games that envolve SHs end up bad to the zergs. The problem is that the unit is not strong enough for the slow mobility and high cost it has. It's a big commitment to make 14 SHs, upgrade them, get 2/2 just to kill 1-2 cannons/stalker every 30 seconds or so. Swarm Host is a freaking siege unit (eg, colossi, BL, tank) that NOONE is really afraid of, The protoss player just stands in his base and keeps building the death ball like theres nothing going, when there are 15 siege units just outside his door; and after holding a few waves he can just overwhelm. I know the comparison is bad but imagine if it were 15 tanks..
The opponent should fear SHs but the locusts are so slow and have so little range that people just tank them and eventually overwhelm.
I know that siege units are supposed to be slow, but they are also supposed to treat the enemy, but SHs arent just strong enough for a siege unit Watch the ROOT guys use them and then get back to me (You know, the same guys who popularized the infestor). With viper, mass static defence and mass queen/hydra support in lategame they are insanely powerful against Protoss. Most people don't know how to use them yet. People not using them because they don't know how does not justify a buff. With proper support they are incredibly strong. You say it is a big commitment, but guess what? The response to them is too. Double robo colossus is incredibly expensive and easy to exploit. And how strong do they have to be? People complain they are too weak but without a proper response out in time they can rip through a wall in a couple waves. Once you hit 15 or 16 swarm hosts Protoss has to have at least 4-5 colossus or they will lose any ground battle outright, and that need for colossus is easy to exploit with vipers and hydras. I never said that SH should be used alone, its obvious that siege units need support by its own definition root guys like catz and vibe using SHs against low NA GMs and KR masters dont really show anything. The level of their game is much lower than the top KR level. And as the top korean zergs said themselves: SHs are just too weak (probably because of the overnerf in hots beta) You are pretty much saying that SHs + vipers + hydras (crazy gas heavy tier2.5/tier3 units) are good against protoss till they get 4-5 colossi. Yes, it is right and it is bad in itself if you analyze the statement. Once protoss has 4-5 colossi zerg is just dead, what happens is that SHs only drag the game further, but it doesnt really help the zerg to win the game because after the protoss getting the colossi and high tech units, the game is pretty much over. I don't think I'd like for swarm hosts to be too powerful. They are a unit which can quickly reach a critical mass: if you're facing swarm hosts and you lose units every time you engage the locusts you've already lost. This means that powerful swarm hosts create a lot of scenarios where an ever growing army of them slowly whittles down a hapless protoss. I don't think that's fun to watch, I'd rather have them as situational unit that you can build but eventually have to transition out of. You don't reach the critical swarm host count that fast either, it takes a lot of time, that's why korean pros say that they are too "expensive and require a big commitment": mainly because you need vipers/hydras and other extremely costly support units. When you finally have that high count of SHs (15+) the protoss already has overwhelming high tech units, and during the whole process that we made all those SHs the only damage the protoss had was was losing some stalkers/zealots/canons here and there. Well, they currently don't reach critical mass that quickly but that could easily change with just a few stat tweaks. I think they are a unit that's difficult to balance and I prefer them to be a little weak over them being a little strong. imo they should make SHs better in smaller numbers while not making them stronger in high numbers. that in combination with a hydra buff would mean Z could finally be aggressive again without going muta. for example they could make locusts have more hp but also be bigger so that they block each other in high numbers (the locusts in the 2nd or 3rd row wont even attack). as for hydras....well they really suck without hivetech support so just give them 6 baserange and 10-20 more hp to make them viable. (and totally rework them to 1 supply and other stats in LotV!). basically every pro in every MU going roach hydra in midgame lost in lets say 70%+...maybe loserate is even higher... I think hydras are pretty much were they should be. We don't need a second marine in the game... If zerg needs a better antiair in the lategame, I think T3 queen & crawler offcreep speed upgrades would be a cool way to do it. For Swarm Hosts... the most annoying thing to me is how clunky they are. If you: rightclick send + shift burrow + shift rightclick for set rally point what happens is that they run to a location, try to all burrow in the same spot and run around weirdly before burrowing and then they don't set a rally point. So that kind of commands is not possible. Instead you have to wait for all of them to reach a location, tell them to burrow, wait for them to finish the burrow animiation and set rally points, wait for the locusts to spawn. Only after all this is done, you can start repositioning them or start controlling the locusts etc... It's like you have to watch one screen for 5-10seconds, just to set everything up. I think it would be cool if they were just a little faster, burrow wouldn't take so long and a queued rightclick after burrow would lead to a set rally point. agree on the SH thing. that would also be a way to fix them. let them be controlled better and not yet another retard unit pathing wise like the ultra... disagree on the hydra thing. right now you cant play hydras in midgame. they just suck....insanely. you NEED viper to make them somewhat useful which is just bad. and its not like with viper they become superstrong or something since til then counters to both viper and hydra like HT are out. roach hydra was proven to be really REALLY bad in ALL MU which means something still is terribly wrong with the hydra. and that is not at all surprising. hydras are 95% the same shitty unit they were in wol. basically nothing changed which is very sad. oh and please dont compare hydras with marines. they would need like 10 buffs to become marinelike. 1-2 buffs wont make them as strong as marines....not by far ^^ (Roach/)Hydra is pretty good in the midgame. They have their downsides in the lategame, no matter how much you support them, which I totally agree with. But this is zerg we are talking about, switching out of hydras and only using them as a support (antiair, medivac killer, prism defense) from there on is quite enough in my opinion. (that's what I mean with "not another marine". I don't want this game to become a spambattle of universal low tier units that you only need to support properly. If I wanted that, I could play any CnC game and tankrush all day long) The question is rather - where to transition to with all your range army. I'd say, that's the biggest problem. On the range path there is no real lategame combat unit, though I think with swarm hosts + vipers/infestors and hydra support there are still a lot of things that could be figuered out.
ZvZ: ling bling muta rapes roach hydra
ZvT: a lot of pros tried roach hydra vs the new MMMM style...and most of them lost horribly. even pros like stephano who loves that comp lose to much lesser opponents with that comp. vs mech roaches are fine and roach hydra viper is also fine but there we go again: you need viper support and it is always better to rush hive and delay hydras until then since otherwise you simply die to a prehivetiming push as seen in GSL etc. so again you need hivesupport for roach hydra.
ZvP: well....basically everything kills roach hydra: blinkstalker with some FF trade insanely well vs roach hydra, robo with FF also, airplay with FF also....so yeah the main problem of roach hydra is FF so mutas or SH is always better in ZvP than roach hydra imo (and most GSL/GSTL PvZs lost involve roach hydra on the Z part...)
roach hydra is just a very bad unit composition and since roaches are good to okayish unit depending on the situation that cant be buffed and hydras are very bad its obvious to buff the hydrapart. and we are talking about small buffs like giving them 6 base range and a bit more hp and see how that works out.
|
Oh oh, I woke up and I had a sudden idea on how to fix Mutalisks in ZvZ. :p
Now that there is precedent for +biological damage to spore crawlers, why not give corruptors one of these things?
- a simple +10 biological damage to their anti-air attack
- I haven't thought this one through and it's more complicated, but a change to corruption so that afflicted air units when hit deal biological area of effect damage.
I still have to wake up, so who knows if it's a good idea. :o
|
On April 20 2013 04:15 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:14 govie wrote:On April 20 2013 04:08 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On April 20 2013 04:02 govie wrote:On April 20 2013 03:53 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On April 20 2013 02:16 Wingblade wrote:
Second of all, BCs were never viable at the endgame of TvP except on super big maps and you could catch a player by surprise. Feedback + void rays crushed it. Archon toilet was effective as well, just ask MVP. BCs are actually better in Heart of the Swarm, they got a buff. Of course, no one knows that because no one ever builds anything but MMM. Unless you're avilo. I went BCs a lot in WoL TvP. They were infinitely better there than in HotS. In HotS Protoss has Tempests, which hard counter them -- 93 damage per shot, if I recall. The Battlecruisers are so slow that the Tempests can kite back behind other units/storms/cannons and the BCs will never get close. I've never seen my army die so fast as when I got BCs vs Protoss in HotS. Dude.. build a raven and drop a pdds.. gg100%  Yamato,cannon + HSM are still strong against Pair Unfortunately the BCs are still too slow to actually do any damage before they die. Raven/Viking is what you need vs Tempests (if you're going mech). Whatever.. talking to a wall here... X_X its not talking to a wall, its pure theorycraft what you both are talking about with only personal experience... Ive beaten a GM protoss with scvs only. Beat that.
Your right. Certainly since i am not even a master at this game, so my opinion should be weighed less high then others maybe.
I would like that there was a thread on Teamliquid where only GM's could discuss the balance... Say like 10z 10p and 10t GM's..... Now that would be an awesome read and a high rated section on TL. Also, they could explain there opinions with some vods (so noobs like me would understand better). If it would ever come to a discussionthread like this, it could well be the best thread on TL ever... since opinions like mine are not posted in it Also, i think GM's discussing with eachother would not give them the feeling they are talking to a wall of ignorance
Is it possible to create such a thread with only GM's posting in it, with vods or detailed examples to back stuff up (like dwf often does)?
|
On April 20 2013 20:14 Grumbels wrote:
Oh oh, I woke up and I had a sudden idea on how to fix Mutalisks in ZvZ. :p
Now that there is precedent for +biological damage to spore crawlers, why not give corruptors one of these things?
- a simple +10 biological damage to their anti-air attack
- I haven't thought this one through and it's more complicated, but a change to corruption so that afflicted air units when hit deal biological area of effect damage.
I still have to wake up, so who knows if it's a good idea. :o
Why not make it even more specific and introduce a "vs Mutalisks" category for bonus damage?
This also doesnt fix ZvZ because it simply makes it easier for the guy with more Mutas to win the fight and then the game.
Corruption is a bloody single target spell and that is a waste of clicking time in a game with so many units. There wont be any corruptors in a ZvZ because they arent going to be useful against Mutas anyways.
|
Northern Ireland25111 Posts
On April 20 2013 13:29 [O]ops wrote:
I only really watch starcraft but since you guys are citing tournaments.
If protoss truly is underpowered why are proleague teams willing to field out protoss players over other races when we're in such crucial rounds. I personally think the game is at a good place right now where the better player wins and all the banter in this thread is mostly just ladder frustration projecting.
Edit: Especially compared to the last few months of WoL
Protoss are still good for prepared bo1 builds for sure, I think their issues are in individual leagues more so than the Proleague format
|
I think a good way to change swarmhosts is to increase time between spawns, let them spawn 4 locusts instead of 2 and make them a bit more expensive. This way they are more easily attackable (increased time between spawns) and you could build them in lower numbers and still have a use for them. Now swarmhosts in numbers of 10-15+ are too strong and hosts in numbers of 1-8 too weak.
The problem of corruptors in ZvZ is that mutas can fly away from them and corruptors cant attack ground. This is why they are useless. The mutalisk zerg could easily transition into roach/hydra when he spots corruptors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
