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On April 19 2013 18:12 LSN wrote:
The true problem is that terran bio doesn't cost any gas.
How about you try to play Terran before spouting random nonsense? Medivacs, Vikings and Ghosts cost a lot of gas. Upgrades/infrastructure cost gas too. I don't know, it's just beyond unreal to say "bio doesn't cost any gas" when bio is as gas-starved as any other composition. Have fun trying to win TvP with only Marines and Marauders beyond a certain point.
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Not to mention it is completely irrelevant. Yeah bio needs little gas, and how exactly does that help bio? I have often enough seen bio players lose with a significant amount of gas banked, which they simply don't have any use for. Just like a gas heavy composition isn't ideal, also a mineral heavy composition has clear downsides to a balanced one.
The fact that some people managed to hold it by using all their focus and ressources to prevent this from being successful does not give any evidence it is not imbalanced.
And the opponent doesn't use all their focus and resources to make it succesfull? This really is a non-argument.
The problem with PvT is that the midgame dropping with boost medivacs is the only thing the terrans have. If your micro isn't extremely good you really don't want to end up late game vs toss. In WoL you could at least transition to something like battlecruisers, but that also isn't relevant in HotS. And early game all banshee openings were made redundant and all early pushes + all-ins are pretty much stopped by planetary nexus. Meanwhile toss got a shitload of all-ins themselves which are very hard to differentiate between. And toss has pretty much free scouting with hallucinations.
Fine if you have a good way to balance that mid-game better, but then not make it a game like PvZ WoL where you have one chance on a mid-game push to win as terran, and everything else is hopeless.
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On April 19 2013 19:18 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 18:12 LSN wrote:
The true problem is that terran bio doesn't cost any gas. How about you try to play Terran before spouting random nonsense? Medivacs, Vikings and Ghosts cost a lot of gas. Upgrades/infrastructure cost gas too. I don't know, it's just beyond unreal to say "bio doesn't cost any gas" when bio is as gas-starved as any other composition. Have fun trying to win TvP with only Marines and Marauders beyond a certain point.
I can't speak to TvP, only TvZ.
Gas is a limiting resource. It limits upgrades, tech, and higher tier unit production. This is a crucial part of the game. The current effectiveness of the virtually gasless bio circumvents that.
Terran should be required to mix in high gas cost units later game to compete with other late game units. In ZvT this is 100% not the case.
When Terran can effectively engage all Zerg comps with the same mid game MMM comp that requires virtually no gas, there is a problem. And it just so happens that MMM with minor tank or mine support goes toe to toe with ling bling muta ultra viper no problem.
There's a reason that 'mineral dump units' is a thing. When your whole army is essentially a mineral dump, it allows you to play stupidly and throw away units without any significant repercussions.
Because of this, Terran I play against are often swimming in 1k-2k gas which is absurd if I'm on gas heavy late tech. It makes upgrades that much more trivial to research because gas isn't an issue and it makes killing medivac a nothing more than a nuisance.
Bio is simply far too cost effective, at least in ZvT.
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On April 20 2013 00:49 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 19:18 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 18:12 LSN wrote:
The true problem is that terran bio doesn't cost any gas. How about you try to play Terran before spouting random nonsense? Medivacs, Vikings and Ghosts cost a lot of gas. Upgrades/infrastructure cost gas too. I don't know, it's just beyond unreal to say "bio doesn't cost any gas" when bio is as gas-starved as any other composition. Have fun trying to win TvP with only Marines and Marauders beyond a certain point. I can't speak to TvP, only TvZ. Gas is a limiting resource. It limits upgrades, tech, and higher tier unit production. This is a crucial part of the game. The current effectiveness of the virtually gasless bio circumvents that. Terran should be required to mix in high gas cost units later game to compete with other late game units. In ZvT this is 100% not the case. When Terran can effectively engage all Zerg comps with the same mid game MMM comp that requires virtually no gas, there is a problem. And it just so happens that MMM with minor tank or mine support goes toe to toe with ling bling muta ultra viper no problem. There's a reason that 'mineral dump units' is a thing. When your whole army is essentially a mineral dump, it allows you to play stupidly and throw away units without any significant repercussions. Because of this, Terran I play against are often swimming in 1k-2k gas which is absurd if I'm on gas heavy late tech. It makes upgrades that much more trivial to research because gas isn't an issue and it makes killing medivac a nothing more than a nuisance. Bio is simply far too cost effective, at least in ZvT.
Yh, everything else just plain sucks. O and you can't just throw units away without trading, 1 bad trade and you might insta lose. 
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No point in arguing against Merkmerk, look at his profile history 
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eOn April 20 2013 00:49 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 19:18 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 18:12 LSN wrote:
The true problem is that terran bio doesn't cost any gas. How about you try to play Terran before spouting random nonsense? Medivacs, Vikings and Ghosts cost a lot of gas. Upgrades/infrastructure cost gas too. I don't know, it's just beyond unreal to say "bio doesn't cost any gas" when bio is as gas-starved as any other composition. Have fun trying to win TvP with only Marines and Marauders beyond a certain point. I can't speak to TvP, only TvZ. Gas is a limiting resource. It limits upgrades, tech, and higher tier unit production. This is a crucial part of the game. The current effectiveness of the virtually gasless bio circumvents that. Terran should be required to mix in high gas cost units later game to compete with other late game units. In ZvT this is 100% not the case. When Terran can effectively engage all Zerg comps with the same mid game MMM comp that requires virtually no gas, there is a problem. And it just so happens that MMM with minor tank or mine support goes toe to toe with ling bling muta ultra viper no problem. There's a reason that 'mineral dump units' is a thing. When your whole army is essentially a mineral dump, it allows you to play stupidly and throw away units without any significant repercussions. Because of this, Terran I play against are often swimming in 1k-2k gas which is absurd if I'm on gas heavy late tech. It makes upgrades that much more trivial to research because gas isn't an issue and it makes killing medivac a nothing more than a nuisance. Bio is simply far too cost effective, at least in ZvT.
I agree. Its completely dumb how terrans can play a 25minutes game out of 3 bases with just tier1-tier2 units that nearly dont cost gas.
You forgot hellbats. Its impossible to defend against early hellbats while being more cost effective than the terran even if you scout as early as you can. The zerg has to make 1 spore/spine per base at least, spend a lot on roaches and other units/static defense while all that the terran need is 4 hellbats and 2 medivacs. The lost mining timing is also ridiculous. I have never seen a pro game where the zerg could end up ahead after early defending hellbat drop, not even when they scout it extremely early.
I think blizzard might patch this game soon, TvZ and even TvP WRs are only increasing and so many unknown terrans suddenly developed "amazing multitask skills" with medivacs rally out of 250apm its quite funny.
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On April 20 2013 00:49 Merkmerk wrote:
Gas is a limiting resource.
And somehow mineral is not? Never noticed how Terran is always mineral-starved when playing 4M?
On April 20 2013 00:49 Merkmerk wrote:
When Terran can effectively engage all Zerg comps with the same mid game MMM comp that requires virtually no gas
...
Constant Medivac production = 285 gas per minut.
Constant Mine production = 37,5 gas per minut per Mine.
Constant Marauder production = 50 gas per minut.
So if you constantly produce 3 Mines, 2 Marauders and 2 Medivacs, you spend ~500 gas per minut, i. e. ~75% of the income 6 gas geysers give you; and even if you don't produce Marauders, you have to add upgrades and add-ons. Apart from that, of course, 4M "requires virtually no gas" ... 4M tends to bank gas for various reasons but it does cost gas. It just happens that at some point, you stop making Medivacs (your main gas dump in production) because there are diminishing returns, and anyway you don't have enough minerals to keep making them while simulateously building the other mineral-heavy units.
You're deluded if you think Terran can handle ultras/infests (no idea why you would mainly make Vipers against 4M) without having a lot of Marauders, Mines and Medivacs... Which do cost gas.
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Another reason to stop producing medivacs is that it's easier to keep them alive, especially with the new speed boost, so oftentimes you only have to replace your marines, mines and marauders (all of which are not so gas heavy).
I think one of the problems Blizzard has with getting this right is that mech is already decently gas intensive. Protoss and zerg both have gas-dump units, but I feel like if say, ghosts were turned into one that it would prevent mech from using ghosts and that Blizzard would therefore hesitate to introduce a change like this.
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Don't forget terran production is also the most gas intensive.
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They should buff back Infestor Neural Parasite from range 7 to 9.
Frankly,they should remove this spell.
I have not seen this spell used in HotS.
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On April 20 2013 01:13 Jalued wrote:
By simply making the medivac boost drain energy would solve all these problems as it would mean:
1) The terran has to carefully consider when to use the boost
2) Too much use would mean that medivacs cannot heal as well
3) Feedback would have the effect of instantly cancelling the boost, making the medivac easy to pick off and practically useless for the next few minutes
So you want this to be back to the ball vs ball meta-game WOL had?
I feel like giving P more options rather than limiting T's options is a better way to deal with things, especially since I feel like Protoss is forced to play defensive due to their race design.
The people saying Terran only needs minerals is ridiculous. Terran floats because in late game, a lot of the gas costs can be negated (stop making medivacs, upgrades are already 3/3 etc). This can be applied to Zerg as well, who once late game (or even mid game), will float a lot of minerals. Both of them are limiting resources, and Zergs are usually on higher bases anyway.
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On April 20 2013 00:49 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 19:18 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 18:12 LSN wrote:
The true problem is that terran bio doesn't cost any gas. How about you try to play Terran before spouting random nonsense? Medivacs, Vikings and Ghosts cost a lot of gas. Upgrades/infrastructure cost gas too. I don't know, it's just beyond unreal to say "bio doesn't cost any gas" when bio is as gas-starved as any other composition. Have fun trying to win TvP with only Marines and Marauders beyond a certain point. I can't speak to TvP, only TvZ. Gas is a limiting resource. It limits upgrades, tech, and higher tier unit production. This is a crucial part of the game. The current effectiveness of the virtually gasless bio circumvents that. Terran should be required to mix in high gas cost units later game to compete with other late game units. In ZvT this is 100% not the case. When Terran can effectively engage all Zerg comps with the same mid game MMM comp that requires virtually no gas, there is a problem. And it just so happens that MMM with minor tank or mine support goes toe to toe with ling bling muta ultra viper no problem. There's a reason that 'mineral dump units' is a thing. When your whole army is essentially a mineral dump, it allows you to play stupidly and throw away units without any significant repercussions. Because of this, Terran I play against are often swimming in 1k-2k gas which is absurd if I'm on gas heavy late tech. It makes upgrades that much more trivial to research because gas isn't an issue and it makes killing medivac a nothing more than a nuisance. Bio is simply far too cost effective, at least in ZvT.
Not entirely true. A good terran keep his gas low or does not mine it yet --> is more minerals --> is more bio --> overwelm opponent more early.
I myself like ravens alot to keep the gas low, just slowly bank them up with an extra starport after i have taken the 6th geyser. I choose ravens because i dont want to wait 6h before upgrades are done. And the armory is more usefull because medivacs and ravens benefit both from armour upgrades (it pays itself back with this composition because u loose less flyers). Next to that there supplycost of ravens is ridicolously low, only 2 supply so banking them up will not hurt your total armysupply that much, but it keeps your gas low.
If a game reaches the 15minute mark, u have some ravens allready. Allways a handy supportunit in every situation. Yes, its hard to control more groups then 2. My mechanics suck when trying to micro 3 controlgroups. But even if u only can hit 3x or 4x HSM's + some pdd's out of the possible XX, it still has a large impact on a battle, that can change a defecit of 50 armysupply into lead (just like with templar/infestor).
A raven is also a good supportunit for a lategame deathballarmy (or will allways strengthen it). If u need to switch to airterran, but u allready have some ravens, the switch is completed much sooner because u can directly mass BC's.
Ravens for president
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On April 20 2013 01:30 TheDwf wrote:And somehow mineral is not? Never noticed how Terran is always mineral-starved when playing 4M? Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 00:49 Merkmerk wrote:
When Terran can effectively engage all Zerg comps with the same mid game MMM comp that requires virtually no gas ... Constant Medivac production = 285 gas per minut. Constant Mine production = 37,5 gas per minut per Mine. Constant Marauder production = 50 gas per minut. So if you constantly produce 3 Mines, 2 Marauders and 2 Medivacs, you spend ~500 gas per minut, i. e. ~75% of the income 6 gas geysers give you; and even if you don't produce Marauders, you have to add upgrades and add-ons. Apart from that, of course, 4M "requires virtually no gas" ... 4M tends to bank gas for various reasons but it does cost gas. It just happens that at some point, you stop making Medivacs (your main gas dump in production) because there are diminishing returns, and anyway you don't have enough minerals to keep making them while simulateously building the other mineral-heavy units. You're deluded if you think Terran can handle ultras/infests (no idea why you would mainly make Vipers against 4M) without having a lot of Marauders, Mines and Medivacs... Which do cost gas.
Nobody is saying that these units don't cost any gas at all. We're saying that compared to the other races, it doesn't cost enough gas for the power it brings. It's the equivalent of me being able to make ling/roach/overseer all game long and win no matter what you build.
And I should hope Terran have to spend a tiny bit of gas on Zerg units that cost 200 or 150 gas a pop.
ps. Blinding Cloud is great against MMM, but again, it costs a lot of gas.
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On April 19 2013 14:51 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 14:25 convention wrote:On April 19 2013 13:17 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:38 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 07:25 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 07:04 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:51 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:49 Wingblade wrote:On April 19 2013 06:33 plogamer wrote:On April 19 2013 06:23 Wingblade wrote:
[quote]
Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there. Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs. You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame. Read the fucking thread. On April 19 2013 06:11 TheDwf wrote:On April 19 2013 05:48 Dudasc wrote:
this game is so "well" balanced that no zerg made it through the WCS qualifiers. Looks like all the accomplished zergs (targa, xlord, etc) lost to "big names" like Siw and Bunny
IEM, MLG, pro league and now WCS but people still wanna deny that there isnt enough data So your "evidence" for Zerg being supposedly weak is that TargA and XlorD were unable to win WCS EU qualifiers? Seriously? Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you? Why are you feeding me some BS about Zergs. This is about Protoss not doing anything. Way to cuss and then attempt a red herring. You're a moron. I think its pretty obvious your ability to argue is pretty weak. You keep referencing Zerg in a discussion about Protoss. Ok... Terran definitely didn't use GSL stats all the time when Zerg was imbalanced at the end of WoL. The results speak for themselves. There are 2 Protoss in the ro16 GSL this season, with one left to play. Protoss hasn't one any of the Hots tournaments since the beta closed(IEM and on). There was 1 Protoss top 4 at MLG(MC 4th place) despite MLG having the most Protoss betweeen the 3 races there.
Zergs dominated everything - gsl AND foreign tourneys. Hell, we had foreign Zergs taking down established Korean non-Zergs.
You mean Terran isn't doing that right now? Why are complete unknowns like Shuttle and Bunny beating established pros and winning the EU qualifiers. Bunny beat MVPfinale in his qualifier, finale has been in Code S. Bunny hasn't been outside Denmark. Protoss isn't winning anything at all against anyone, and Terran is to blame.
Meanwhile, 6/12 Zergs advanced so far in Code S RO16. What say you?
So, Terrans are advancing and it's proof that Protoss can't advance because of Terrans. Whereas Zergs advancing is .. ? Nothing? I guess all Zergs just forfeit when they are matched against a Protoss. But better yet, what happens when a good Protoss gets taken down by a good Zerg? Then all protoss representation goes into shit without Terrans lifting a finger. To blame it all on Terrans, bravo. I mean, look at the last GSL games. Getting taken out with SCV all-in when Protoss has access to forcefields and collosi. Those were some bad plays. And yet that gets no mention. Naw, you're right. Definite proof that Terran is OP. RorO didn't play against any Protoss when he advanced. soO lost 2-0 to sOs in his only ZvP when he advanced. KangHo didn't have a Protoss in his group. Shine 2-0ed Squirtle in his only ZvP, Symbol didn't play a P. Soulkey didn't have a Protoss in his group. So actually, Zerg hasn't been responsible for hardly any of the Protoss defeats. And apparently your understanding of the Protoss side of TvP is hilariously deficient. Holding the SCV pull timing from Terran while opening colossus first is actually insanely hard unless you can get storm first(if that happens Terran missed their timing) the timings Bomber did to Creator were counters to Creator's play style because he goes quick colossi. Terran has an appropriate number of vikings and Protoss isn't able to get storm in time. The fact that you think dying to that timing is strictly bad play by the Protoss is enough evidence of your idiocy. Yeah, forcefields are hard. And while the force-fields are holding off the SCVs; yeah, selecting just the collosi to attack rather than whole army is hard. Once the SCV are fried, refreshing forcefields are hard. Using the time bought to warp in more units, finish upgrades, yeah, hard. It's insanely hard, No denying it. But they're Code S. They can do this kind of shit. Protoss is the one race that has never ever been dominant, and has spent the most amount of time with the lowest win rates. Surely protoss players just suck. Or maybe, just maybe protoss is the weakest race and deserve some sort of buff to be able to not have the perpetual 45% winrate we saw all throughout WoL and so far in HotS. I will almost guarantee you and everyone else that thinks similarly has never actually played protoss and tried to forcefield off sections of the terran army. FF range is small, and sentries are very expensive. And if you really just attack with collosi, then the maurders that you trapped near your army just stim in and kill the collosi. Or do you think that toss will force field everything out and somehow terran is going to sit there? Do people really think toss players are just bad? How about we nerf the marine to do 1 damage, then when terrans start losing we can all say how terrans are just bad, not that they have a weak race. Why do people always make up statistics when making balance arguments? Statistically speaking Zerg is by far the weakest race, by far. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E&usp=sharingHow you could possibly justify a protoss buff using statistics is beyond me.
Because those stats are flat wrong at least for TvP. I pointed out a few mistakes the other day in a post. Half of the games of TvP from MLG are just flat missing. Should be 23-11 Terran at MLG, not 11-7. The GSL also has 2 phantom wins in TvP for Protoss, should be 12-7. I didn't even analyze very much and I already found flaws in the data.
Remind me again how many Protoss are still in Code S.
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Medivac Speed will be nerfed.
And Swarm Host is underused.
David Kim is already looking to buff them.
The top Korean Zergs have adapted well to HotS faster than expected.
Mines are good but I wouldn't nerfed them just yet.
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On April 20 2013 02:05 Merkmerk wrote:
ps. Blinding Cloud is great against MMM, but again, it costs a lot of gas.
Atleast u are creative
U can better not spend that gas as terran does then build vipers against bio just because the word "viper" sounds cool.
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That's actually correct, TvP is 12-7 in the GSL. Something has been counted twice.
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On April 20 2013 01:13 Jalued wrote:
By simply making the medivac boost drain energy would solve all these problems as it would mean:
1) The terran has to carefully consider when to use the boost
2) Too much use would mean that medivacs cannot heal as well
3) Feedback would have the effect of instantly cancelling the boost, making the medivac easy to pick off and practically useless for the next few minutes
Sounds simple, but if something affects the Medivac energy, you will have to rebalance the healing, because Medivacs tend to run dry if the game has some action. They intended that the boost is used alot, in return they were able to make some units better. So if the boost would have to be used and would require energy, they would have to make the healing more efficient, which would make Medivacs better at direct attacks. Or of course debuff the units they buffed because of the boost.
Personally in HotS the roles are a bit reverted. Terran has not much else they can do anymore except Bio with Mines. But because of the nature of the Mines and the Medivac boost, they are allowed to make mistakes. Zerg on the other hand can do alot, but they aren't allowed to make many mistakes. It is not as extreme as post Queen, but quiet noticeable.
Right now it looks like Terran evolves faster then Zerg, because they only have to concentrate on one unit composition and have more playroom in games. While Zerg has to do alot of different compositions to fight it. (other matchups included) But atleast some Zergs are keeping up with all the Terran stuff.
I think it will be fine once the BioMine play reached the end of its potential and it is still far from there. Basically every week something new is done, but so do some Zergs.
I think both races are pushing each other to new heights, due to that. Protoss is a bit left out simply because their matchups play really differently from each other. Even Zerg doesn't have to vary that much.
And finally the gentleman's agreement between Terrans to not care about TvT at all, so they can train Biomine 24/7. And TvTs usually decide by raw skill or end up being a slaughter.
One big difference to WoL though is that Terrans took more and more risks, the better the Zergs got. While most Zergs in HotS play safer and safer. Which makes it easier for the Terran.
In WoL balance changes were easy to predict for me, got alot right. But in HotS I have no clue. Aside from that I want to see Siege Tanks outside of TvT and midgame pushes.
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Hope after the travesty blizzard pulled on WoL support, they actualy do what everyone with sense of RTS said and when something is overpowerd not nerf it to shit bits and actualy look at the problem and give other races things of their own. Deadly stuff that is useless when used bad and sick good when used properly and not big blobs of BL/inf or collo/temp +warpgate a click nonsense.
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EPT
