|
Those stats are only for the first 5 groups. I think at the end, TvP was even but TvZ was worse than PvZ which was already low at 33%, TvZ was in the twenties.
|
The number dont seem to match up.
6 T got through to RO16
They went 3-9 vs protoss, which means at most one got through in TvP
Then they went 5-13 vs zerg, which means at most 2 got through in TvZ
So at best, 3 got through according to those stats. I will have to find some other numbers for this.
|
On November 11 2012 05:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 05:32 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 05:24 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:54 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony  ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why? Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced. But you're not considering the nerf into the situation, Fungal would no longer root units, only slow their movement speed by 70% A 70% reduction in movement speed is too much of a slow still. Running away and spreading units with a 70% speed reduction would be nearly impossible and you still wont be able to kite lings/blings running in. On November 11 2012 04:55 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. Yea I like how you chose to leave out any and all numbers, statistics and/or facts. Because you know, all of those things would support the notion of Terran being the weakest race and refute your post. Thanks for the little rundown of how game balance goes, even if it's completely wrong and irrelevant. MLG Dallas RO8 - 4T, 3Z, 1P GSL Code S Season 4 RO8 - 3T, 3Z, 2P GSL Code S Season 5 RO16 - 6T, 8Z, 2P If you have some information that I dont have, feel free to post. As things stand, at the professional level, Terran is not the weakest race. Why don't you check out the win% for Code S. Terran sitting somewhere in the 20-30% range. How are you going to simply list arbitrary racial distributions from seemingly random segments of different events and actually expect anyone to take you seriously? I think you mixed up T and P. Start of Season 5- 9 P, 14 T, 9 Z RO16 - 2 P, 6 T, 8 Z This means 22.2~% winrate for protoss and 42.8~% winrate for terran Where did you get your 20-30% range? What is the protoss range? Why don't you go check out the thread or do some of your own research so people don't have to explain the simplest things? Yes, Protoss had the smallest % of advancing players, but that's not the same thing as win%. If you look at the actually count of games won and lost, Terran is being massacred. You are making the claim that T is the weakest, the burden of proof is on you. Everything I see indicates that P is the weakest. And I am sorry if I dont blindly trust a terran saying his own race is weak.
None of the races are the weakest.
T is the hardest to play. P is the easiest.
P is not weak, they're just badly designed so that a skillful player of another race can beat them easily in a straight up game apart from the Deathball vs T.
|
|
|
Uh Terran still has the lowest Set Win%.........
so..........
???????
|
On November 11 2012 05:39 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 05:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 05:32 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 05:24 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:54 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race.
The current theme is:
T = Z (roughly)
Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry)
P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus)
This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T.
Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss.
EDIT
[quote]
No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why? Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced. But you're not considering the nerf into the situation, Fungal would no longer root units, only slow their movement speed by 70% A 70% reduction in movement speed is too much of a slow still. Running away and spreading units with a 70% speed reduction would be nearly impossible and you still wont be able to kite lings/blings running in. On November 11 2012 04:55 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. Yea I like how you chose to leave out any and all numbers, statistics and/or facts. Because you know, all of those things would support the notion of Terran being the weakest race and refute your post. Thanks for the little rundown of how game balance goes, even if it's completely wrong and irrelevant. MLG Dallas RO8 - 4T, 3Z, 1P GSL Code S Season 4 RO8 - 3T, 3Z, 2P GSL Code S Season 5 RO16 - 6T, 8Z, 2P If you have some information that I dont have, feel free to post. As things stand, at the professional level, Terran is not the weakest race. Why don't you check out the win% for Code S. Terran sitting somewhere in the 20-30% range. How are you going to simply list arbitrary racial distributions from seemingly random segments of different events and actually expect anyone to take you seriously? I think you mixed up T and P. Start of Season 5- 9 P, 14 T, 9 Z RO16 - 2 P, 6 T, 8 Z This means 22.2~% winrate for protoss and 42.8~% winrate for terran Where did you get your 20-30% range? What is the protoss range? Why don't you go check out the thread or do some of your own research so people don't have to explain the simplest things? Yes, Protoss had the smallest % of advancing players, but that's not the same thing as win%. If you look at the actually count of games won and lost, Terran is being massacred. You are making the claim that T is the weakest, the burden of proof is on you. Everything I see indicates that P is the weakest. And I am sorry if I dont blindly trust a terran saying his own race is weak. No, the burden of proof isn't on me, don't try to pull this shit. I initially responded to your post where you just pulled out some random racial distributions and claimed Terran wasn't performing the worst. I'm telling you that there have been multiple posts enumerating on this seasons GSL and showing that Terran is doing poorly. Go do some of your own reading. When you cite misleading "statistics" don't get mad when someone points that out.
You have to swear rather than provide proof seriously, I agree with the previous post. I"m looking at Season 4 GSL had code A groups 15 zerg, 18 terrans, 15 toss. Code S 10 toss, 13 terran, 9 zerg. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_4
You do have a burden of proof and then complain that there are multiple posts stating your conclusions without even citing one. Stop whining.
There are two differences in korean Terran play. Koreans take more risks as terrans. They try using early raven banshee for example to clear creep, go mass marines into ultra air army, 16 hellion all-in, 8 cc builds.
Secondly, korean terrans prepare a lot more for specific players. I want to reiterate the last gsl finals was TZ, not protoss, the previous finals were toss-toss. zerg mechanics take a while to grasp but are easier to macro. I would cite kespa terrans as doing things that other terrans thought unthinkable before. like mass marine ghosts, vs brood army and only engage to kill infestors. i still argue that the game is young and the reality is that its designed for top level players with apm in the 250-350 range. Teaja, flash, MVP, marineking, ghostking, supernova(who never gets any credit btw.), major, demuslim, etc. have had success even since the patches and upgrades.
I feel like toss is the strongest race right now, zerg in the middle ,and terran is slightly weaker. My reasoning is the warpin with two base play is amazing. You could master this vs all three races and win many tournaments. (Like MC) This still doesn't denounce the fact that there are large amounts of terrans who are successful. Some stats are off like NASL has a lot of korean toss right now, so it turns out that toss appear to be unstoppable. The biggest success story IMO is hyun. He is one of the best at knowing where to engage, when to counter, when to mass. QXC is one of the most underrated terrans who has all killed which the community forgets to. Support your terran brothers not by being stupid and swearing and complaining without proof.
|
On November 11 2012 06:01 SupLilSon wrote:Uh Terran still has the lowest Set Win%......... so.......... ???????
Our initial argument - More T's advance on a % than P
Your rebuttal - "BUT TERRANS HAVE LOWEST ACTUAL WIN %"
Our refined argument - Protoss has a lower win % than T
Your rebuttal - "BUT T HAS LOWEST SET WIN %"
Moving goalposts much?
|
Terran winrates are fine - 30% isn't really that bad. Maybe if it was under 10% then we'd have cause for alarm.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
On November 11 2012 06:04 tokinho wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 05:39 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 05:32 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 05:24 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:54 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:
[quote]
How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why?
Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced. But you're not considering the nerf into the situation, Fungal would no longer root units, only slow their movement speed by 70% A 70% reduction in movement speed is too much of a slow still. Running away and spreading units with a 70% speed reduction would be nearly impossible and you still wont be able to kite lings/blings running in. On November 11 2012 04:55 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. Yea I like how you chose to leave out any and all numbers, statistics and/or facts. Because you know, all of those things would support the notion of Terran being the weakest race and refute your post. Thanks for the little rundown of how game balance goes, even if it's completely wrong and irrelevant. MLG Dallas RO8 - 4T, 3Z, 1P GSL Code S Season 4 RO8 - 3T, 3Z, 2P GSL Code S Season 5 RO16 - 6T, 8Z, 2P If you have some information that I dont have, feel free to post. As things stand, at the professional level, Terran is not the weakest race. Why don't you check out the win% for Code S. Terran sitting somewhere in the 20-30% range. How are you going to simply list arbitrary racial distributions from seemingly random segments of different events and actually expect anyone to take you seriously? I think you mixed up T and P. Start of Season 5- 9 P, 14 T, 9 Z RO16 - 2 P, 6 T, 8 Z This means 22.2~% winrate for protoss and 42.8~% winrate for terran Where did you get your 20-30% range? What is the protoss range? Why don't you go check out the thread or do some of your own research so people don't have to explain the simplest things? Yes, Protoss had the smallest % of advancing players, but that's not the same thing as win%. If you look at the actually count of games won and lost, Terran is being massacred. You are making the claim that T is the weakest, the burden of proof is on you. Everything I see indicates that P is the weakest. And I am sorry if I dont blindly trust a terran saying his own race is weak. No, the burden of proof isn't on me, don't try to pull this shit. I initially responded to your post where you just pulled out some random racial distributions and claimed Terran wasn't performing the worst. I'm telling you that there have been multiple posts enumerating on this seasons GSL and showing that Terran is doing poorly. Go do some of your own reading. When you cite misleading "statistics" don't get mad when someone points that out. You have to swear rather than provide proof seriously, I agree with the previous post. I"m looking at Season 4 GSL had code A groups 15 zerg, 18 terrans, 15 toss. Code S 10 toss, 13 terran, 9 zerg. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_4 You do have a burden of proof and then complain that there are multiple posts stating your conclusions without even citing one. Stop whining. There are two differences in korean Terran play. Koreans take more risks as terrans. They try using early raven banshee for example to clear creep, go mass marines into ultra air army, 16 hellion all-in, 8 cc builds. Secondly, korean terrans prepare a lot more for specific players. I want to reiterate the last gsl finals was TZ, not protoss, the previous finals were toss-toss. zerg mechanics take a while to grasp but are easier to macro. I would cite kespa terrans as doing things that other terrans thought unthinkable before. like mass marine ghosts, vs brood army and only engage to kill infestors. i still argue that the game is young and the reality is that its designed for top level players with apm in the 250-350 range. Teaja, flash, MVP, marineking, ghostking, supernova(who never gets any credit btw.), major, demuslim, etc. have had success even since the patches and upgrades. I feel like toss is the strongest race right now, zerg in the middle ,and terran is slightly weaker. My reasoning is the warpin with two base play is amazing. You could master this vs all three races and win many tournaments. (Like MC) This still doesn't denounce the fact that there are large amounts of terrans who are successful. Some stats are off like NASL has a lot of korean toss right now, so it turns out that toss appear to be unstoppable. The biggest success story IMO is hyun. He is one of the best at knowing where to engage, when to counter, when to mass. QXC is one of the most underrated terrans who has all killed which the community forgets to. Support your terran brothers not by being stupid and swearing and complaining without proof.
Slow down there partner, try reading any of the above posts. Tons of proof there.
|
You're still looking at a 33% TvZ winrate taking into account the entirety of Code S thus far, and it'll probably be worse by the time the Ro16 is over. I'm honestly hoping the trend continues, much though it depresses me to see TvZ these days just because it'll nullify the last remaining "b-b-but there are still lots of Terrans in GSL!" attempt at an argument about the state of the matchup.
TvP numbers in Korea are looking okay at the moment though. It still depends on the same boring formula of the success of Terran's first attack creating a snowball effect one way or the other that decides 90% of games, but at least Blizzard isn't going out of their way to nerf every Terran timing into the ground in that matchup (at least yet).
|
TvZ confuses me because of people like MKP.
Seriously, the dude goes MMM vs ling/bling on creep and comes out ahead. Then the Z adds in infestors and he STILL comes out ahead. The hell is that about? Nerf MKP.
|
On November 11 2012 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 06:01 SupLilSon wrote:Uh Terran still has the lowest Set Win%......... so.......... ??????? Our initial argument - More T's advance on a % than P Your rebuttal - "BUT TERRANS HAVE LOWEST ACTUAL WIN %" Our refined argument - Protoss has a lower win % than T Your rebuttal - "BUT T HAS LOWEST SET WIN %" Moving goalposts much?
The numbers are all readily available now. We've brought them all to your attention. It not my fault you set the original goalposts at a stupid place by trying to imply racial distribution equates to balance. Someone showed me that the Liquipedia data was incomplete. I noticed that with the complete data Terran is still winning the lowest % of matches, what ultimately matters in GSL. Attacking someone method of argument just shows you can't refute the argument itself.
I mean a cursory look at any other tournament going on in Korea will just display more Protoss and Zerg domination, we could look at those numbers also but then there wouldn't be anything left for you to argue.
|
On November 11 2012 06:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
TvZ confuses me because of people like MKP.
Seriously, the dude goes MMM vs ling/bling on creep and comes out ahead. Then the Z adds in infestors and he STILL comes out ahead. The hell is that about? Nerf MKP.
That's called a huge difference in skill/ability between two players.
|
On November 11 2012 06:27 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 06:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
TvZ confuses me because of people like MKP.
Seriously, the dude goes MMM vs ling/bling on creep and comes out ahead. Then the Z adds in infestors and he STILL comes out ahead. The hell is that about? Nerf MKP. That's called a huge difference in skill/ability between two players.
Yet when the zerg does something resembling its because his race is OP.
|
On November 11 2012 06:30 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 06:27 Talack wrote:On November 11 2012 06:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
TvZ confuses me because of people like MKP.
Seriously, the dude goes MMM vs ling/bling on creep and comes out ahead. Then the Z adds in infestors and he STILL comes out ahead. The hell is that about? Nerf MKP. That's called a huge difference in skill/ability between two players. Yet when the zerg does something resembling its because his race is OP.
yeah, because that just one guy,
but for zerg suddenly all players do more than fine...you know something is wrong with a race if they do not have nothing to bitch about the other races and think the balance is fine (same way as terran players did before!)
|
On November 11 2012 06:30 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 06:27 Talack wrote:On November 11 2012 06:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
TvZ confuses me because of people like MKP.
Seriously, the dude goes MMM vs ling/bling on creep and comes out ahead. Then the Z adds in infestors and he STILL comes out ahead. The hell is that about? Nerf MKP. That's called a huge difference in skill/ability between two players. Yet when the zerg does something resembling its because his race is OP.
No offense but can you please point me to a point where you saw someone a situation like that with Z can win through shear aggression and micro :S
I can't think of any match i've ever seen where it happened outside of crushing an army and then just having zerg macro mechanics take over.
|
On November 11 2012 06:30 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 06:27 Talack wrote:On November 11 2012 06:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
TvZ confuses me because of people like MKP.
Seriously, the dude goes MMM vs ling/bling on creep and comes out ahead. Then the Z adds in infestors and he STILL comes out ahead. The hell is that about? Nerf MKP. That's called a huge difference in skill/ability between two players. Yet when the zerg does something resembling its because his race is OP.
No one said that when Life just destroyed that kespa player the other night in his code S group.
Edit: No one said that about Leenocks play in his code S group either.
|
On November 11 2012 06:30 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 06:27 Talack wrote:On November 11 2012 06:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
TvZ confuses me because of people like MKP.
Seriously, the dude goes MMM vs ling/bling on creep and comes out ahead. Then the Z adds in infestors and he STILL comes out ahead. The hell is that about? Nerf MKP. That's called a huge difference in skill/ability between two players. Yet when the zerg does something resembling its because his race is OP.
The day a Zerg comes along with even half of MKP's micro ability, let me know.
You understand that's the entire issue here, right? There's no need for a Zerg to learn to control their units on the level of players like MKP or MC, or learn to multitask like MMA or HerO. A brood/infestor army can not only put down an exceptionally well-controlled Terran or Protoss army, but can do it with a complete minimum of effort on the Zerg player's part.
|
On November 11 2012 06:35 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 06:30 Assirra wrote:On November 11 2012 06:27 Talack wrote:On November 11 2012 06:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
TvZ confuses me because of people like MKP.
Seriously, the dude goes MMM vs ling/bling on creep and comes out ahead. Then the Z adds in infestors and he STILL comes out ahead. The hell is that about? Nerf MKP. That's called a huge difference in skill/ability between two players. Yet when the zerg does something resembling its because his race is OP. yeah, because that just one guy, but for zerg suddenly all players do more than fine...you know something is wrong with a race if they do not have nothing to bitch about the other races and think the balance is fine (same way as terran players did before!)
Even when T was considered OP there were alot of bitching about zerg, and terran got better at micro and it went from there.
Banes were pretty stupid until people started splitting marines like MKP and MVP did.
Hellions were considered USELESS for a very long time, artosis himself said they would become like vultures where people would figure out how to micro and use them.
TvZ used to be mass marine and tank into mass thor. Zergs complained about that being OP till they found broodlord infestor and other methods of countering it.
After a few buffs T was unable to win vs zerg in the late game, they then started massing up ghosts to deal with the tech switches.
We then got into T finding ways to delay expansions while securing their own and queens got buffed to fix that.
In all honesty, alot of the T vs Z complaints got fixed through playing better, but we just never really saw that come about from Z too much. DRG had a huge spotlight on him because his TvZ was amazing before all these buffs and he was able to just plain outplay his opponent. When he won you could tell he was the better player. When you see someone mass up infestors and just go "well if I didn't mass up infestors I would lose" you just feel like that's the biggest cop out in the history of sc2. Zerg has won by outplaying people ALOT of the time before massing up infestors was around and they will continue to do so after infestors are nerfed. It's better for the game for the better player to win everything, not for the guy who made 30 infestors and there was nothing at all his opponent could do.
|
A big part of the problem are just the wholesale Terran nerfs. Just about every single late game unit the Terran has is a narrow counter. That is, good against one unit. Each needs a different expensive production building. Zerg's whole lategame comp is threats. Infestors and Broods go without saying. Queens are support, but damn, they're better than Roaches and have Transfuse. Corruptors are strictly AA but can clear the air and turn into siege tanks. Wish grounded vikings had anything that awesome.
So it boils into clunky, expensive production of narrow counters vs. sleek flexible production of threats. And somehow Blizzard thinks this is OK.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
