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On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony  ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out.
I don't think creep spreading should be seen as "the problem". Zergs can't control whether Terran does a dedicated bio or a dedicated Mech build, so I don't think a dedicated creep build like mass queen openings should be "just deniable".
I'd rather say, that there should be a discussion about how much difference creep or no creep should make. Imo Creep is just too hard to remove again, especially for Terran. P/Z can do somewhat fine with 1obs or 1 overseer and kill a lot of creep tumors of minimal investment. Scans are imo not the right choice against creep, but Ravens are not really available/too volatile to just mix in. On top of that, creep just disappears too slowly imo and probably grants too much vision.
I don't like the idea of "putting on pressure must be viable". Sure it can make for good games, but I feel like way too often it ends with "hm, this pressure always works... I guess I'm just gonna commit even more to it..." aka PvZ balance: kill it with a variety of overly successful allins, or die if both coinflips said macro.
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On November 10 2012 19:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. I don't think creep spreading should be seen as "the problem". Zergs can't control whether Terran does a dedicated bio or a dedicated Mech build, so I don't think a dedicated creep build like mass queen openings should be "just deniable". I'd rather say, that there should be a discussion about how much difference creep or no creep should make. Imo Creep is just too hard to remove again, especially for Terran. P/Z can do somewhat fine with 1obs or 1 overseer and kill a lot of creep tumors of minimal investment. Scans are imo not the right choice against creep, but Ravens are not really available/too volatile to just mix in. On top of that, creep just disappears too slowly imo and probably grants too much vision. I don't like the idea of "putting on pressure must be viable". Sure it can make for good games, but I feel like way too often it ends with "hm, this pressure always works... I guess I'm just gonna commit even more to it..." aka PvZ balance: kill it with a variety of overly successful allins, or die if both coinflips said macro.
The queen buff was stupid and unnecessary, as was the overlord buff, plain and simple. The fact that Blizz hasnt reverted these buffs shows their lack of concern/knowledge/common sense
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On November 10 2012 19:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. I don't think creep spreading should be seen as "the problem". Zergs can't control whether Terran does a dedicated bio or a dedicated Mech build, so I don't think a dedicated creep build like mass queen openings should be "just deniable". I'd rather say, that there should be a discussion about how much difference creep or no creep should make. Imo Creep is just too hard to remove again, especially for Terran. P/Z can do somewhat fine with 1obs or 1 overseer and kill a lot of creep tumors of minimal investment. Scans are imo not the right choice against creep, but Ravens are not really available/too volatile to just mix in. On top of that, creep just disappears too slowly imo and probably grants too much vision. I don't like the idea of "putting on pressure must be viable". Sure it can make for good games, but I feel like way too often it ends with "hm, this pressure always works... I guess I'm just gonna commit even more to it..." aka PvZ balance: kill it with a variety of overly successful allins, or die if both coinflips said macro.
The problem is that that Protoss and Terran need to be able to pressure a zerg, just like Terran for the most time needs to be able to pressure protoss a bit. Simply because if you let zerg get a free ride to lategame, you basicly also give them a free win since you cant combat BL/Infestor
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On November 10 2012 19:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. I don't think creep spreading should be seen as "the problem". Zergs can't control whether Terran does a dedicated bio or a dedicated Mech build, so I don't think a dedicated creep build like mass queen openings should be "just deniable". I'd rather say, that there should be a discussion about how much difference creep or no creep should make. Imo Creep is just too hard to remove again, especially for Terran. P/Z can do somewhat fine with 1obs or 1 overseer and kill a lot of creep tumors of minimal investment. Scans are imo not the right choice against creep, but Ravens are not really available/too volatile to just mix in. On top of that, creep just disappears too slowly imo and probably grants too much vision. I don't like the idea of "putting on pressure must be viable". Sure it can make for good games, but I feel like way too often it ends with "hm, this pressure always works... I guess I'm just gonna commit even more to it..." aka PvZ balance: kill it with a variety of overly successful allins, or die if both coinflips said macro.
But Blizzard does balance based on "putting on pressure must be viable". They have already stated this for TvP and we can see it applies for TvZ as well. The difference between terran and zerg production just scales differently in the late game. Plus zerg units late game (mainly infestors) are just very supply efficient.
Creep is a double issue for terran because it makes drops weaker (zergs has more map vision) and maps pushing on creep much more dangerous. As we can see with zergs who can engage well (Life, Leenock, etc), they can break siege position off creep. On creep, it is no contest. The fact that terrans have to siege up and zerg can see all the army positioning before deciding to engage is a huge issue. With protoss, you can at least use FFs and such to manipulate the battle field once engagement happens. With terrans, they have to split to avoid banelings but splitting gives too much surface to lings. Tanks gets like 1 shot off before they are surrounded. And even if they can get a 2nd shot off, it hits lings as much as it hits marines.
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I have a suggestion for the Infestor and I just want to get some feed back on it.
Lately there has been talk about the Infestor being OP. I just wanted to share my suggestion in fixing it, and if you don't mind reply with why or why not you do not like my suggestion.
Instead of Fungal Growth rooting units in place, indefinitely with more Infestors, have it reduce movement speed by 70%. However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed. This will allow people to actually micro and attempt to save units, while making the Infestor more viable.
Thoughts and opinions?
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On November 11 2012 02:35 KentHenry wrote:
I have a suggestion for the Infestor and I just want to get some feed back on it.
Lately there has been talk about the Infestor being OP. I just wanted to share my suggestion in fixing it, and if you don't mind reply with why or why not you do not like my suggestion.
Instead of Fungal Growth rooting units in place, indefinitely with more Infestors, have it reduce movement speed by 70%. However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed. This will allow people to actually micro and attempt to save units, while making the Infestor more viable.
Thoughts and opinions?
I'd settle for being able to cast NP while burrowed.
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On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out.
Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race.
The current theme is:
T = Z (roughly)
Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry)
P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus)
This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T.
Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss.
EDIT
However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed
No. Infestor would be more OP with that change.
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On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT Show nested quote +However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change.
How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why?
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On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why?
Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced.
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On November 11 2012 04:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why? Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced.
But you're not considering the nerf into the situation, Fungal would no longer root units, only slow their movement speed by 70%
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On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT Show nested quote +However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change.
Yea I like how you chose to leave out any and all numbers, statistics and/or facts. Because you know, all of those things would support the notion of Terran being the weakest race and refute your post. Thanks for the little rundown of how game balance goes, even if it's completely wrong and irrelevant.
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On November 11 2012 02:35 KentHenry wrote:
I have a suggestion for the Infestor and I just want to get some feed back on it.
Lately there has been talk about the Infestor being OP. I just wanted to share my suggestion in fixing it, and if you don't mind reply with why or why not you do not like my suggestion.
Instead of Fungal Growth rooting units in place, indefinitely with more Infestors, have it reduce movement speed by 70%. However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed. This will allow people to actually micro and attempt to save units, while making the Infestor more viable.
Thoughts and opinions?
That is the worse idea I have ever heard. You present a nerf but want an even stronger buff to make up for it? Burrowed units are incredibly hard to see so your entire army would just get fungaled constantly.
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On November 11 2012 04:54 KentHenry wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 04:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why? Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced. But you're not considering the nerf into the situation, Fungal would no longer root units, only slow their movement speed by 70%
A 70% reduction in movement speed is too much of a slow still. Running away and spreading units with a 70% speed reduction would be nearly impossible and you still wont be able to kite lings/blings running in.
On November 11 2012 04:55 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. Yea I like how you chose to leave out any and all numbers, statistics and/or facts. Because you know, all of those things would support the notion of Terran being the weakest race and refute your post. Thanks for the little rundown of how game balance goes, even if it's completely wrong and irrelevant.
MLG Dallas RO8 - 4T, 3Z, 1P
GSL Code S Season 4 RO8 - 3T, 3Z, 2P
GSL Code S Season 5 RO16 - 6T, 8Z, 2P
If you have some information that I dont have, feel free to post. As things stand, at the professional level, Terran is not the weakest race.
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On November 10 2012 05:56 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.)
How do you figure that? Protoss is the race with the least representation in GSL..
Well, I checked the racial distributions of 2012 GSL seasons and also compared them to previous 2011 GSL seasons and the decrease of terrans is significant, so I don't quite see your point to be valid. Another not so marginal factor is racial distribution in the semifinals and finals, not just overall. Also, since when is that only GSL matters? There are other major tournaments too... and don't forget korean terrans.
Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race.
I switched from zerg to terran, so I kinda know the situation from both sides. You, however didn't back up your statements with any arguments.
T = Z (roughly)
I think you are in definite minority with that opinion.
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On November 11 2012 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 04:54 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why? Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced. But you're not considering the nerf into the situation, Fungal would no longer root units, only slow their movement speed by 70% A 70% reduction in movement speed is too much of a slow still. Running away and spreading units with a 70% speed reduction would be nearly impossible and you still wont be able to kite lings/blings running in. Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 04:55 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. Yea I like how you chose to leave out any and all numbers, statistics and/or facts. Because you know, all of those things would support the notion of Terran being the weakest race and refute your post. Thanks for the little rundown of how game balance goes, even if it's completely wrong and irrelevant. MLG Dallas RO8 - 4T, 3Z, 1P GSL Code S Season 4 RO8 - 3T, 3Z, 2P GSL Code S Season 5 RO16 - 6T, 8Z, 2P If you have some information that I dont have, feel free to post. As things stand, at the professional level, Terran is not the weakest race.
Why don't you check out the win% for Code S. Terran sitting somewhere in the 20-30% range. How are you going to simply list arbitrary racial distributions from seemingly random segments of different events and actually expect anyone to take you seriously?
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On November 11 2012 05:24 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:54 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why? Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced. But you're not considering the nerf into the situation, Fungal would no longer root units, only slow their movement speed by 70% A 70% reduction in movement speed is too much of a slow still. Running away and spreading units with a 70% speed reduction would be nearly impossible and you still wont be able to kite lings/blings running in. On November 11 2012 04:55 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. Yea I like how you chose to leave out any and all numbers, statistics and/or facts. Because you know, all of those things would support the notion of Terran being the weakest race and refute your post. Thanks for the little rundown of how game balance goes, even if it's completely wrong and irrelevant. MLG Dallas RO8 - 4T, 3Z, 1P GSL Code S Season 4 RO8 - 3T, 3Z, 2P GSL Code S Season 5 RO16 - 6T, 8Z, 2P If you have some information that I dont have, feel free to post. As things stand, at the professional level, Terran is not the weakest race. Why don't you check out the win% for Code S. Terran sitting somewhere in the 20-30% range. How are you going to simply list arbitrary racial distributions from seemingly random segments of different events and actually expect anyone to take you seriously?
I think you mixed up T and P.
Start of Season 5- 9 P, 14 T, 9 Z
RO16 - 2 P, 6 T, 8 Z
This means 22.2~% winrate for protoss and 42.8~% winrate for terran
Where did you get your 20-30% range? What is the protoss range?
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On November 11 2012 05:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 05:24 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:54 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why? Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced. But you're not considering the nerf into the situation, Fungal would no longer root units, only slow their movement speed by 70% A 70% reduction in movement speed is too much of a slow still. Running away and spreading units with a 70% speed reduction would be nearly impossible and you still wont be able to kite lings/blings running in. On November 11 2012 04:55 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. Yea I like how you chose to leave out any and all numbers, statistics and/or facts. Because you know, all of those things would support the notion of Terran being the weakest race and refute your post. Thanks for the little rundown of how game balance goes, even if it's completely wrong and irrelevant. MLG Dallas RO8 - 4T, 3Z, 1P GSL Code S Season 4 RO8 - 3T, 3Z, 2P GSL Code S Season 5 RO16 - 6T, 8Z, 2P If you have some information that I dont have, feel free to post. As things stand, at the professional level, Terran is not the weakest race. Why don't you check out the win% for Code S. Terran sitting somewhere in the 20-30% range. How are you going to simply list arbitrary racial distributions from seemingly random segments of different events and actually expect anyone to take you seriously? I think you mixed up T and P. Start of Season 5- 9 P, 14 T, 9 Z RO16 - 2 P, 6 T, 8 Z This means 22.2~% winrate for protoss and 42.8~% winrate for terran Where did you get your 20-30% range? What is the protoss range?
Why don't you go check out the thread or do some of your own research so people don't have to explain the simplest things? Yes, Protoss had the smallest % of advancing players, but that's not the same thing as win%. If you look at the actually count of games won and lost, Terran is being massacred.
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On November 11 2012 05:32 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 05:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 05:24 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:54 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why? Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced. But you're not considering the nerf into the situation, Fungal would no longer root units, only slow their movement speed by 70% A 70% reduction in movement speed is too much of a slow still. Running away and spreading units with a 70% speed reduction would be nearly impossible and you still wont be able to kite lings/blings running in. On November 11 2012 04:55 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. Yea I like how you chose to leave out any and all numbers, statistics and/or facts. Because you know, all of those things would support the notion of Terran being the weakest race and refute your post. Thanks for the little rundown of how game balance goes, even if it's completely wrong and irrelevant. MLG Dallas RO8 - 4T, 3Z, 1P GSL Code S Season 4 RO8 - 3T, 3Z, 2P GSL Code S Season 5 RO16 - 6T, 8Z, 2P If you have some information that I dont have, feel free to post. As things stand, at the professional level, Terran is not the weakest race. Why don't you check out the win% for Code S. Terran sitting somewhere in the 20-30% range. How are you going to simply list arbitrary racial distributions from seemingly random segments of different events and actually expect anyone to take you seriously? I think you mixed up T and P. Start of Season 5- 9 P, 14 T, 9 Z RO16 - 2 P, 6 T, 8 Z This means 22.2~% winrate for protoss and 42.8~% winrate for terran Where did you get your 20-30% range? What is the protoss range? Why don't you go check out the thread or do some of your own research so people don't have to explain the simplest things? Yes, Protoss had the smallest % of advancing players, but that's not the same thing as win%. If you look at the actually count of games won and lost, Terran is being massacred.
You are making the claim that T is the weakest, the burden of proof is on you. Everything I see indicates that P is the weakest. And I am sorry if I dont blindly trust a terran saying his own race is weak.
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On November 11 2012 05:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 05:32 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 05:24 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:54 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 11 2012 04:47 KentHenry wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. How will it be more OP? Detection prevents ambushes, it punishes players who do not get any detection. Terran has scans and Ravens, Protoss has the observer, which is on the way to Colossus. I don't see how allowing Infestors to cast it's spells while burrowed is OP. Could you explain why? Burrowed units are extremely difficult to see. Just using IT's to ambush sieged up positions is extremely strong in ZvT. Imagine being able to IT AND fungal units before they have a chance to spread would be. If you are trying to force T's to get Ravens, sure... but it is not balanced. But you're not considering the nerf into the situation, Fungal would no longer root units, only slow their movement speed by 70% A 70% reduction in movement speed is too much of a slow still. Running away and spreading units with a 70% speed reduction would be nearly impossible and you still wont be able to kite lings/blings running in. On November 11 2012 04:55 SupLilSon wrote:On November 11 2012 04:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 10 2012 05:20 Saigon2246 wrote:Let's swing a little away from BL-Inf, it should be pretty much obvious for now to even Blizzard that it's too strong. Even the solution is sort of outlined, slow instead of rooting units. Since the start major changes took place and in the current situation terran seems to be the weakest race (the irony ). As far as I know, the dramatic decline both in terran ladder presence and tournament placements started since the Queen buff, which was in Patch 1.4.3. (Of course effects added up with the previous terran nerfs.) Unfortunately I don't play a lot because I'm more of a watcher, which is why I'm pretty bad, but because I watch a lot of pro games I'm quite up-to-date with the current metagame and strategies. So, as of the Queen buff, suddenly all terran pressure builds and timings started not to work anymore and terrans more and more struggled against zerg which is where we are at the moment. Catching some matches last MLG, it just amazed me how hopeless terrans looked against zerg creep spread. If you remember Scarlett vs Bomber, zerg creep was nearly at the terrans third all of the matches like at 10-12 minutes, I don't remember exactly, but it was so insane, Bomber could hardly move out or take a third, and only managed to take off one game of Scarlett, and even that was because Scarlett screwed up big time. So I was wondering, what if Queens could only use their buffed ground range after Lair? Would this help a little bit for terrans, what do you think? I guess this would mean that hellions could deny creep and reactor hellion would be useful again until the zerg gets Lair. I guess this would delay at least creep spread, which would help terrans moving out. Oh look, a terran claiming to be the weakest race. The current theme is: T = Z (roughly) Z > P (except in cases of immortal/sentry) P barely > T (if P is allowed storm and colossus) This results in the current scenario of Code S where there are few P, but plenty of Z and T. Bomber lost to Scarlett and allowed crazy creep spread by sitting in his base the entire game. He applied zero pressure and let scarlett macro until she was ready to punish. A protoss wouldve easily crushed Bomber too had he played the same way against protoss. EDIT However, due the nerf, we will allow Infestors to cast all its spells while burrowed No. Infestor would be more OP with that change. Yea I like how you chose to leave out any and all numbers, statistics and/or facts. Because you know, all of those things would support the notion of Terran being the weakest race and refute your post. Thanks for the little rundown of how game balance goes, even if it's completely wrong and irrelevant. MLG Dallas RO8 - 4T, 3Z, 1P GSL Code S Season 4 RO8 - 3T, 3Z, 2P GSL Code S Season 5 RO16 - 6T, 8Z, 2P If you have some information that I dont have, feel free to post. As things stand, at the professional level, Terran is not the weakest race. Why don't you check out the win% for Code S. Terran sitting somewhere in the 20-30% range. How are you going to simply list arbitrary racial distributions from seemingly random segments of different events and actually expect anyone to take you seriously? I think you mixed up T and P. Start of Season 5- 9 P, 14 T, 9 Z RO16 - 2 P, 6 T, 8 Z This means 22.2~% winrate for protoss and 42.8~% winrate for terran Where did you get your 20-30% range? What is the protoss range? Why don't you go check out the thread or do some of your own research so people don't have to explain the simplest things? Yes, Protoss had the smallest % of advancing players, but that's not the same thing as win%. If you look at the actually count of games won and lost, Terran is being massacred. You are making the claim that T is the weakest, the burden of proof is on you. Everything I see indicates that P is the weakest. And I am sorry if I dont blindly trust a terran saying his own race is weak.
No, the burden of proof isn't on me, don't try to pull this shit. I initially responded to your post where you just pulled out some random racial distributions and claimed Terran wasn't performing the worst. I'm telling you that there have been multiple posts enumerating on this seasons GSL and showing that Terran is doing poorly. Go do some of your own reading. When you cite misleading "statistics" don't get mad when someone points that out.
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EPT
