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On November 08 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 06:55 President Dead wrote:On November 08 2012 02:13 GeneralSnoop wrote:
What i really dont get is why broodlings and infested terrans get upgrades! Infinite streams of 0 supply units at 3-3 upgrades is just sooooo powerful. If they were stuck at 0-0 things would make much more sense. Uh, ... Why should a unit not be upgraded like everything else? it is not an infinite stream. It is based on energy and the amount of units you have. If it was infinite I could launch 400 broodlings at start of game. I proved your statement false. Probably because fighting a 200/200 Zerg deathball + 50 3/3 Marines is virtually impossible. Just fighting the deathball is pretty much impossible in a lot of cases. Adding half a Terran army is just silly. Frankly, I don't know why ITs are even in the game when Fungal basically does the same job.
Why did you allow Zerg to get to 200 supply?
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On November 08 2012 08:02 President Dead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 06:55 President Dead wrote:On November 08 2012 02:13 GeneralSnoop wrote:
What i really dont get is why broodlings and infested terrans get upgrades! Infinite streams of 0 supply units at 3-3 upgrades is just sooooo powerful. If they were stuck at 0-0 things would make much more sense. Uh, ... Why should a unit not be upgraded like everything else? it is not an infinite stream. It is based on energy and the amount of units you have. If it was infinite I could launch 400 broodlings at start of game. I proved your statement false. Probably because fighting a 200/200 Zerg deathball + 50 3/3 Marines is virtually impossible. Just fighting the deathball is pretty much impossible in a lot of cases. Adding half a Terran army is just silly. Frankly, I don't know why ITs are even in the game when Fungal basically does the same job. Why did you allow Zerg to get to 200 supply?
he probably didn't immortal-allin. his fault.
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On November 08 2012 08:02 President Dead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 06:55 President Dead wrote:On November 08 2012 02:13 GeneralSnoop wrote:
What i really dont get is why broodlings and infested terrans get upgrades! Infinite streams of 0 supply units at 3-3 upgrades is just sooooo powerful. If they were stuck at 0-0 things would make much more sense. Uh, ... Why should a unit not be upgraded like everything else? it is not an infinite stream. It is based on energy and the amount of units you have. If it was infinite I could launch 400 broodlings at start of game. I proved your statement false. Probably because fighting a 200/200 Zerg deathball + 50 3/3 Marines is virtually impossible. Just fighting the deathball is pretty much impossible in a lot of cases. Adding half a Terran army is just silly. Frankly, I don't know why ITs are even in the game when Fungal basically does the same job. Why did you allow Zerg to get to 200 supply?
What kind of game are we playing, that one of the races has to win the game before minute x (T and P), and the other has to turtle until the minute x (Z)?
I want to be able to win a game early, mid or late game, depending on my style of play, and how the game unfolds.
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On November 08 2012 08:02 President Dead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 06:55 President Dead wrote:On November 08 2012 02:13 GeneralSnoop wrote:
What i really dont get is why broodlings and infested terrans get upgrades! Infinite streams of 0 supply units at 3-3 upgrades is just sooooo powerful. If they were stuck at 0-0 things would make much more sense. Uh, ... Why should a unit not be upgraded like everything else? it is not an infinite stream. It is based on energy and the amount of units you have. If it was infinite I could launch 400 broodlings at start of game. I proved your statement false. Probably because fighting a 200/200 Zerg deathball + 50 3/3 Marines is virtually impossible. Just fighting the deathball is pretty much impossible in a lot of cases. Adding half a Terran army is just silly. Frankly, I don't know why ITs are even in the game when Fungal basically does the same job. Why did you allow Zerg to get to 200 supply?
Oh I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that competitive matchups are supposed to boil down to one all-in every game.
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Not killing a Zerg before 200 supply implies you must all-in.
This is a defeatist attitude which negates the idea of possibility in ones game. If you can stop worrying so much about a result, it's actually really fun opening and expanding your mind creatively to get the upper hand.
I think you guys even know it's completely wrong, as you're not dumb, but feel frustrated and thus causes you to fall into a confined box of thought?
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On November 08 2012 08:30 President Dead wrote:
Not killing a Zerg before 200 supply implies you must all-in.
This is a defeatist attitude which negates the idea of possibility in ones game. If you can stop worrying so much about a result, it's actually really fun opening and expanding your mind creatively to get the upper hand.
I think you guys even know it's completely wrong, as you're not dumb, but feel frustrated and thus causes you to fall into a confined box of thought?
That's why every PvZ in Korea is won virtually every time only because of an all-in or a ridiculously greedy corner cutting build (which is essentially another all-in)? Or every TvZ is won only if the Z makes a completely huge blunder with his scouting and lets the T kill him or hurt him significantly with an all-in?
It's not a defeatist attitude; everyone knows that you HAVE to deal significant damage before a Z hits 200 supply. The only way to do that is to virtually go all-in, as you cannot play like you can in BW and force the Z to make units instead of drones, since multiple factors in SC2 make Z incredibly strong at the moment. The volatility of the income, the way larvae inject works, etc. etc. makes growing an economy as a Z player too easy.
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Blizzard adopting their cyclical approach to balance. Their new idea of waiting for things to map out is fucking, fucking, fucking retarded. While the game was still relatively new, we saw every terran innovation nerfed within 14 days of its introduction (thors, ghosts, whatever - none of them were even close to being as strong as infestors late). Now that we're approaching the end of WoL, we're going to have to wait until HotS to see if balance is restored by itself. The difference between now and then is that the dominant terran playstyle was at least entertaining to watch. Broodlord infestor games are like watching dota replays at 1/4 speed. Seeing shitty foreign zergs shit on hard working korean pros makes me want to thrust a needle down my peehole ._.
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On November 08 2012 08:45 EmilA wrote:
Blizzard adopting their cyclical approach to balance. Their new idea of waiting for things to map out is fucking, fucking, fucking retarded. While the game was still relatively new, we saw every terran innovation nerfed within 14 days of its introduction (thors, ghosts, whatever - none of them were even close to being as strong as infestors late). Now that we're approaching the end of WoL, we're going to have to wait until HotS to see if balance is restored by itself. The difference between now and then is that the dominant terran playstyle was at least entertaining to watch. Broodlord infestor games are like watching dota replays at 1/4 speed. Seeing shitty foreign zergs shit on hard working korean pros makes me want to thrust a needle down my peehole ._.
Great post, couldnt have said it better myself, they brought the nerf hammer down on Terran way too hard, way too fast
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On November 08 2012 08:45 EmilA wrote:
Blizzard adopting their cyclical approach to balance. Their new idea of waiting for things to map out is fucking, fucking, fucking retarded. While the game was still relatively new, we saw every terran innovation nerfed within 14 days of its introduction (thors, ghosts, whatever - none of them were even close to being as strong as infestors late). Now that we're approaching the end of WoL, we're going to have to wait until HotS to see if balance is restored by itself. The difference between now and then is that the dominant terran playstyle was at least entertaining to watch. Broodlord infestor games are like watching dota replays at 1/4 speed. Seeing shitty foreign zergs shit on hard working korean pros makes me want to thrust a needle down my peehole ._.
very true, I actually have a hard time watching any match with z just because a large portion of the games end up so ridiculous with the infestor ,ex: large pure infestor armies crushing anything that comes there way. The anti-microness of the infestor spells just ruins any watchability
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On November 08 2012 08:30 President Dead wrote:
Not killing a Zerg before 200 supply implies you must all-in.
This is a defeatist attitude which negates the idea of possibility in ones game. If you can stop worrying so much about a result, it's actually really fun opening and expanding your mind creatively to get the upper hand.
I think you guys even know it's completely wrong, as you're not dumb, but feel frustrated and thus causes you to fall into a confined box of thought?
Stop conducting naive psychoanalysis. None of us are telling you that killing a Zerg before 200/200 = all-in because of our attitude about "results," whatever that even means. We're telling you that because the only way to do so as Protoss is to 2 base all-in (Immortal/Sentry) or 3 base all-in (Creator Prime style). If you have any other macro options, feel free to list them, but I'd be amazed if you did, since Protoss cannot afford to lose expensive units.
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On November 08 2012 08:39 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 08:30 President Dead wrote:
Not killing a Zerg before 200 supply implies you must all-in.
This is a defeatist attitude which negates the idea of possibility in ones game. If you can stop worrying so much about a result, it's actually really fun opening and expanding your mind creatively to get the upper hand.
I think you guys even know it's completely wrong, as you're not dumb, but feel frustrated and thus causes you to fall into a confined box of thought?
That's why every PvZ in Korea is won virtually every time only because of an all-in or a ridiculously greedy corner cutting build (which is essentially another all-in)? Or every TvZ is won only if the Z makes a completely huge blunder with his scouting and lets the T kill him or hurt him significantly with an all-in? It's not a defeatist attitude; everyone knows that you HAVE to deal significant damage before a Z hits 200 supply. The only way to do that is to virtually go all-in, as you cannot play like you can in BW and force the Z to make units instead of drones, since multiple factors in SC2 make Z incredibly strong at the moment. The volatility of the income, the way larvae inject works, etc. etc. makes growing an economy as a Z player too easy.
Yeah that's pretty much it, Zerg seems to be about to weather so much harassment without it having much of an impact that it feels like the other player is wasting resources unless they are able to snipe the Greater Spire. The main game that sticks in my mind was Hero vs Leenock from last season where Hero was winning every engagement and confining Leenock mostly to 3 bases, but Leenock was still able to amass Infestors and Broodlords, get one Neural and that was effectively the end of the game, I know most games don't end like this, but its just the fact that Hero seemed like he was so far ahead, yet he still couldn't fight the army head on without a successful Vortex.
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Just because I generally like this idea and I forgot about this thread
I didnt think this deserved a new thread, so I thought I would pose this here (late night musings and all):
A lot of people think that BL/infestor is a composition that is a bit too strong. And I generally agree (I play as zerg). However, what if the problem isnt infestors? What if the problem is that corruptors morph into BL's instead of mutalisks?
Think about it. Zerg has to use corruptors against both protoss and terran to get rid of their AA. After the AA is killed they can quickly replace their lost BL's because they already have the corruptors out. Meanwhile, corruptors arent really weak against anything. Corruptors beat vikings (with fungal support), take little damage from thors, have a lot of health to tank marine damage, they beat VR's (to an extent), carriers, take down colossus and the mothership. And you can never really overmake corruptors because you can just morph them into broods.
However, if Broods were morphed from mutalisks, they are weak to most things. Thors handle them relatively well because of range, marines too (which protect your vikings taking out the broodlords). Mutas arent as effective against motherships and the army beneath it, weaker to archons and high templar and carriers... pretty much everything in the late game mutalisks will lose to in a direct confrontation.
So my proposal is this: Broodlords morph from mutalisks instead of corruptors.
Poll: What do you think of this proposal?I disagree (26) 74% I agree (9) 26% 35 total votes Your vote: What do you think of this proposal? (Vote): I agree
(Vote): I disagree
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On November 08 2012 09:08 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 08:39 superstartran wrote:On November 08 2012 08:30 President Dead wrote:
Not killing a Zerg before 200 supply implies you must all-in.
This is a defeatist attitude which negates the idea of possibility in ones game. If you can stop worrying so much about a result, it's actually really fun opening and expanding your mind creatively to get the upper hand.
I think you guys even know it's completely wrong, as you're not dumb, but feel frustrated and thus causes you to fall into a confined box of thought?
That's why every PvZ in Korea is won virtually every time only because of an all-in or a ridiculously greedy corner cutting build (which is essentially another all-in)? Or every TvZ is won only if the Z makes a completely huge blunder with his scouting and lets the T kill him or hurt him significantly with an all-in? It's not a defeatist attitude; everyone knows that you HAVE to deal significant damage before a Z hits 200 supply. The only way to do that is to virtually go all-in, as you cannot play like you can in BW and force the Z to make units instead of drones, since multiple factors in SC2 make Z incredibly strong at the moment. The volatility of the income, the way larvae inject works, etc. etc. makes growing an economy as a Z player too easy. Yeah that's pretty much it, Zerg seems to be about to weather so much harassment without it having much of an impact that it feels like the other player is wasting resources unless they are able to snipe the Greater Spire. The main game that sticks in my mind was Hero vs Leenock from last season where Hero was winning every engagement and confining Leenock mostly to 3 bases, but Leenock was still able to amass Infestors and Broodlords, get one Neural and that was effectively the end of the game, I know most games don't end like this, but its just the fact that Hero seemed like he was so far ahead, yet he still couldn't fight the army head on without a successful Vortex.
There are plenty of games where Terran players torch like 20+ drones with Helion/Banshee openings, and STILL end up losing because Z players just laugh at you and recreate all of their drones.
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On November 08 2012 09:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
mutalisks will lose to in a direct confrontation.
So my proposal is this: Broodlords morph from mutalisks instead of corruptors.
I think your solution is wrong, but your analysis is correct. I agree that corruptors is a big part of the problem in TvZ. In fact if the zerg lategame was broodlord/infestor then things would be very different. The issue is that while you can make all the vikings you want, the zerg can match you on corruptor count and still have enough infestors to fungal and infested terran. I find that the mass corruptor count is what screws me over every single time in the lategame tvz because even if I transition to air in time for the broodlord switch, competent zergs will just make infinity corruptors and then just enough broodlords to deal the damage because they know that with infestor/broodlord blocking all pathing the broodlords can only be attacked from the air, so it doesn't matter if you just have 6 broodlords and the rest in corruptors because Terran can't just abose the overcommitment to air and go marine.
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On November 08 2012 09:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
So my proposal is this: Broodlords morph from mutalisks instead of corruptors.
Doesn't solve the actual problem, which is the fact that you can't actually beat BL/Infestor once it's out (without major fuckups on the Z part).
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On November 08 2012 09:11 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:08 Myrddraal wrote:On November 08 2012 08:39 superstartran wrote:On November 08 2012 08:30 President Dead wrote:
Not killing a Zerg before 200 supply implies you must all-in.
This is a defeatist attitude which negates the idea of possibility in ones game. If you can stop worrying so much about a result, it's actually really fun opening and expanding your mind creatively to get the upper hand.
I think you guys even know it's completely wrong, as you're not dumb, but feel frustrated and thus causes you to fall into a confined box of thought?
That's why every PvZ in Korea is won virtually every time only because of an all-in or a ridiculously greedy corner cutting build (which is essentially another all-in)? Or every TvZ is won only if the Z makes a completely huge blunder with his scouting and lets the T kill him or hurt him significantly with an all-in? It's not a defeatist attitude; everyone knows that you HAVE to deal significant damage before a Z hits 200 supply. The only way to do that is to virtually go all-in, as you cannot play like you can in BW and force the Z to make units instead of drones, since multiple factors in SC2 make Z incredibly strong at the moment. The volatility of the income, the way larvae inject works, etc. etc. makes growing an economy as a Z player too easy. Yeah that's pretty much it, Zerg seems to be about to weather so much harassment without it having much of an impact that it feels like the other player is wasting resources unless they are able to snipe the Greater Spire. The main game that sticks in my mind was Hero vs Leenock from last season where Hero was winning every engagement and confining Leenock mostly to 3 bases, but Leenock was still able to amass Infestors and Broodlords, get one Neural and that was effectively the end of the game, I know most games don't end like this, but its just the fact that Hero seemed like he was so far ahead, yet he still couldn't fight the army head on without a successful Vortex. There are plenty of games where Terran players torch like 20+ drones with Helion/Banshee openings, and STILL end up losing because Z players just laugh at you and recreate all of their drones.
Creep + zerg unit mobility and the ability of infestors to slow down pushes is the cause for this. A terran player can still get insane advantages over the zerg but there is no chance of making use of that timing window because the zerg can delay until the window has passed. The fact that maps just keep getting bigger is not helping either.
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On November 08 2012 09:20 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
mutalisks will lose to in a direct confrontation.
So my proposal is this: Broodlords morph from mutalisks instead of corruptors.
I think your solution is wrong, but your analysis is correct. I agree that corruptors is a big part of the problem in TvZ. In fact if the zerg lategame was broodlord/infestor then things would be very different. The issue is that while you can make all the vikings you want, the zerg can match you on corruptor count and still have enough infestors to fungal and infested terran. I find that the mass corruptor count is what screws me over every single time in the lategame tvz because even if I transition to air in time for the broodlord switch, competent zergs will just make infinity corruptors and then just enough broodlords to deal the damage because they know that with infestor/broodlord blocking all pathing the broodlords can only be attacked from the air, so it doesn't matter if you just have 6 broodlords and the rest in corruptors because Terran can't just abose the overcommitment to air and go marine.
What if Corruptors were changed to do less damage with a generous helping of +damage against Massive? Essentially, this would allow the Corruptor to take out Carriers, Battlecruisers, and Colossi, but they would do FAR less damage against Vikings, Phoenix, Void Rays. Then, we could see Protoss incorporating Void Rays to help fight the Corruptors and we could see Terran utilizing their Vikings to ward off Corruptors as well.
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On November 08 2012 09:28 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:20 VanGarde wrote:On November 08 2012 09:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
mutalisks will lose to in a direct confrontation.
So my proposal is this: Broodlords morph from mutalisks instead of corruptors.
I think your solution is wrong, but your analysis is correct. I agree that corruptors is a big part of the problem in TvZ. In fact if the zerg lategame was broodlord/infestor then things would be very different. The issue is that while you can make all the vikings you want, the zerg can match you on corruptor count and still have enough infestors to fungal and infested terran. I find that the mass corruptor count is what screws me over every single time in the lategame tvz because even if I transition to air in time for the broodlord switch, competent zergs will just make infinity corruptors and then just enough broodlords to deal the damage because they know that with infestor/broodlord blocking all pathing the broodlords can only be attacked from the air, so it doesn't matter if you just have 6 broodlords and the rest in corruptors because Terran can't just abose the overcommitment to air and go marine. What if Corruptors were changed to do less damage with a generous helping of +damage against Massive? Essentially, this would allow the Corruptor to take out Carriers, Battlecruisers, and Colossi, but they would do FAR less damage against Vikings, Phoenix, Void Rays. Then, we could see Protoss incorporating Void Rays to help fight the Corruptors and we could see Terran utilizing their Vikings to ward off Corruptors as well.
I feel that the point of corruptors in lategame battles is to tank while the infestors fungal + IT all of the air units to death. The corruptors are primarily to tank to make sure the BLs are not the units getting attacked. At least that is how I feel like they work usually. I could be wrong, but that is why I think that this suggestion doesn't fully address the problem.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:28 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:20 VanGarde wrote:On November 08 2012 09:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:
mutalisks will lose to in a direct confrontation.
So my proposal is this: Broodlords morph from mutalisks instead of corruptors.
I think your solution is wrong, but your analysis is correct. I agree that corruptors is a big part of the problem in TvZ. In fact if the zerg lategame was broodlord/infestor then things would be very different. The issue is that while you can make all the vikings you want, the zerg can match you on corruptor count and still have enough infestors to fungal and infested terran. I find that the mass corruptor count is what screws me over every single time in the lategame tvz because even if I transition to air in time for the broodlord switch, competent zergs will just make infinity corruptors and then just enough broodlords to deal the damage because they know that with infestor/broodlord blocking all pathing the broodlords can only be attacked from the air, so it doesn't matter if you just have 6 broodlords and the rest in corruptors because Terran can't just abose the overcommitment to air and go marine. What if Corruptors were changed to do less damage with a generous helping of +damage against Massive? Essentially, this would allow the Corruptor to take out Carriers, Battlecruisers, and Colossi, but they would do FAR less damage against Vikings, Phoenix, Void Rays. Then, we could see Protoss incorporating Void Rays to help fight the Corruptors and we could see Terran utilizing their Vikings to ward off Corruptors as well.
That would still make Carriers and Battlecruisers nearly obsolete against zerg. T and P players want air armies to be viable in this game, which means you need to have a core component that cannot be straight-up countered.
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I think they should change fungal to not affect massive units, a fungaled mothership is about the most ridiculus thing in the world :/
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EPT
