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On November 08 2012 01:00 arcane1129 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 00:53 arcane1129 wrote:On November 08 2012 00:45 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 00:39 arcane1129 wrote:On November 07 2012 18:27 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 07 2012 18:06 Big J wrote:Because it's the best player in the world playing against some dude who hasn't achieved anything in SC2 yet. I am confused. Flash is the best SC2 player in the world, for that there is no doubt. But Life is a code S winner. So he has achieved something, right? You can't possibly be thinking Life is the best player in the world and Flash is ...'some dude'? You're either insane or read that wrong. He's saying Life is the best sc2 player and flash hasn't won anything in sc2 yet. I HATEEEE seeing terran players overmake tanks late game vs zerg. They're useless vs broodlords, and in my opinion even overmade pre-hive tech. Seeing mvp with 20 useless tanks that he suicided to buy time was painful to watch. If he hadn't made so freaking many despite knowing what was coming he would've been fine. Terrans should be maxing out with thor/viking/raven with only a small amount of tanks and hellions. I also don't know why terrans have forgotten ghosts even exist. Yes they were nerfed, but they were incredibly broken before - that doesn't mean they don't have uses now. Snipe is meh, but when we see zergs getting 20+ (even 40!?) infestors and no attempt at ghosts in any tournament or ladder match I've seen since the nerf, that's ridiculous. That's because Ghost-based compositions die to any tech switch whatsoever, and aren't even particularly effective at nullifying Infestors given that EMP isn't very efficient and that Snipe is hard to properly pull off against a smart Zerg. You wouldn't make ghosts until zerg committed to hive tech, and as ghosts are okay against anything zerg can make post lair, you'd be fine. Snipe isn't hard to pull off at all - it wasn't hard to mass snipe armies pre patch, and the mechanics behind snipe haven't changed (only the damage has). Zerg's never make overseers anymore vs terran, and even if they did, they die quickly to snipe (though it can be difficult to get to the overseers). I'm not saying to make 30 ghosts like before, but splitting up 3-4 and coming from the side to emp infestors can definitely be a game winning move. 3-4 Ghosts aren't going to be enough to kill any substantial number of Infestors against a competent player. You don't need to kill them, you emp them. Broodlord armies without a ton of infestor energy get mauled by thor/viking/raven compositions.
Play the game instead of theorycrafting. Ghosts don't work because like any ground unit, they get swarmed by the endless stream of Broodlings. You can't even reach Infestors beneath Broodlords.
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On November 08 2012 01:02 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 00:53 arcane1129 wrote:On November 08 2012 00:45 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 00:39 arcane1129 wrote:On November 07 2012 18:27 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 07 2012 18:06 Big J wrote:Because it's the best player in the world playing against some dude who hasn't achieved anything in SC2 yet. I am confused. Flash is the best SC2 player in the world, for that there is no doubt. But Life is a code S winner. So he has achieved something, right? You can't possibly be thinking Life is the best player in the world and Flash is ...'some dude'? You're either insane or read that wrong. He's saying Life is the best sc2 player and flash hasn't won anything in sc2 yet. I HATEEEE seeing terran players overmake tanks late game vs zerg. They're useless vs broodlords, and in my opinion even overmade pre-hive tech. Seeing mvp with 20 useless tanks that he suicided to buy time was painful to watch. If he hadn't made so freaking many despite knowing what was coming he would've been fine. Terrans should be maxing out with thor/viking/raven with only a small amount of tanks and hellions. I also don't know why terrans have forgotten ghosts even exist. Yes they were nerfed, but they were incredibly broken before - that doesn't mean they don't have uses now. Snipe is meh, but when we see zergs getting 20+ (even 40!?) infestors and no attempt at ghosts in any tournament or ladder match I've seen since the nerf, that's ridiculous. That's because Ghost-based compositions die to any tech switch whatsoever, and aren't even particularly effective at nullifying Infestors given that EMP isn't very efficient and that Snipe is hard to properly pull off against a smart Zerg. You wouldn't make ghosts until zerg committed to hive tech, and as ghosts are okay against anything zerg can make post lair, you'd be fine. Snipe isn't hard to pull off at all - it wasn't hard to mass snipe armies pre patch, and the mechanics behind snipe haven't changed (only the damage has). Zerg's never make overseers anymore vs terran, and even if they did, they die quickly to snipe (though it can be difficult to get to the overseers). I'm not saying to make 30 ghosts like before, but splitting up 3-4 and coming from the side to emp infestors can definitely be a game winning move. What are you talking about? Ghost are dreadful against both hive units now. There's absolutely no point in making a ghost out of the same barracks that can make marauders since the latter is so much better against ultras, and you don't want them either against broods because of their total lack of versatility. A few ghosts to help you against infestors is fine, but do you really want to go down yet another obscure tech path with limited utility when it's already difficult enough as it is to get to that raven-based ultimate mech/sky army?
The bolded part above was all I was trying to suggest. As I said, I don't think mass ghost like before is viable and I do think ghosts should be minor buffed to somewhere inbetween what they are now and what they used to be.
Like I said before, I think overmaking tanks is the biggest mistake terran players have been doing
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On November 08 2012 01:03 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 01:00 arcane1129 wrote:On November 08 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 00:53 arcane1129 wrote:On November 08 2012 00:45 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 00:39 arcane1129 wrote:On November 07 2012 18:27 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 07 2012 18:06 Big J wrote:Because it's the best player in the world playing against some dude who hasn't achieved anything in SC2 yet. I am confused. Flash is the best SC2 player in the world, for that there is no doubt. But Life is a code S winner. So he has achieved something, right? You can't possibly be thinking Life is the best player in the world and Flash is ...'some dude'? You're either insane or read that wrong. He's saying Life is the best sc2 player and flash hasn't won anything in sc2 yet. I HATEEEE seeing terran players overmake tanks late game vs zerg. They're useless vs broodlords, and in my opinion even overmade pre-hive tech. Seeing mvp with 20 useless tanks that he suicided to buy time was painful to watch. If he hadn't made so freaking many despite knowing what was coming he would've been fine. Terrans should be maxing out with thor/viking/raven with only a small amount of tanks and hellions. I also don't know why terrans have forgotten ghosts even exist. Yes they were nerfed, but they were incredibly broken before - that doesn't mean they don't have uses now. Snipe is meh, but when we see zergs getting 20+ (even 40!?) infestors and no attempt at ghosts in any tournament or ladder match I've seen since the nerf, that's ridiculous. That's because Ghost-based compositions die to any tech switch whatsoever, and aren't even particularly effective at nullifying Infestors given that EMP isn't very efficient and that Snipe is hard to properly pull off against a smart Zerg. You wouldn't make ghosts until zerg committed to hive tech, and as ghosts are okay against anything zerg can make post lair, you'd be fine. Snipe isn't hard to pull off at all - it wasn't hard to mass snipe armies pre patch, and the mechanics behind snipe haven't changed (only the damage has). Zerg's never make overseers anymore vs terran, and even if they did, they die quickly to snipe (though it can be difficult to get to the overseers). I'm not saying to make 30 ghosts like before, but splitting up 3-4 and coming from the side to emp infestors can definitely be a game winning move. 3-4 Ghosts aren't going to be enough to kill any substantial number of Infestors against a competent player. You don't need to kill them, you emp them. Broodlord armies without a ton of infestor energy get mauled by thor/viking/raven compositions. Play the game instead of theorycrafting. Ghosts don't work because like any ground unit, they get swarmed by the endless stream of Broodlings. You can't even reach Infestors beneath Broodlords.
I do play the game, I'm a masters zerg and I've been playing more terran than anything recently. You don't just stroll up with ghosts to the zerg base and hope to emp everything. Ideally, you would do it when an engagement happens. If they don't have overseers, which zergs in the current metagame never do, you get free emps unless they were keeping an eye out for ghosts and seperated an infestor to fungal your ghost (which isn't THAT big a of a deal, you can still snipe it). If they do have them, you'd have to wait for the engagement when the broodlords are attacking and then go for emps.
It may be a good idea, it may not. Either way, no terran anywhere that I've seen has even made an attempt at making it work. Hell, I've seen more threads about trying to make hydras work zvt then I've seen attempts at using ghosts in the past 6 months.
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On November 08 2012 01:15 arcane1129 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 01:03 TheDwf wrote:On November 08 2012 01:00 arcane1129 wrote:On November 08 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 00:53 arcane1129 wrote:On November 08 2012 00:45 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 00:39 arcane1129 wrote:On November 07 2012 18:27 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 07 2012 18:06 Big J wrote:Because it's the best player in the world playing against some dude who hasn't achieved anything in SC2 yet. I am confused. Flash is the best SC2 player in the world, for that there is no doubt. But Life is a code S winner. So he has achieved something, right? You can't possibly be thinking Life is the best player in the world and Flash is ...'some dude'? You're either insane or read that wrong. He's saying Life is the best sc2 player and flash hasn't won anything in sc2 yet. I HATEEEE seeing terran players overmake tanks late game vs zerg. They're useless vs broodlords, and in my opinion even overmade pre-hive tech. Seeing mvp with 20 useless tanks that he suicided to buy time was painful to watch. If he hadn't made so freaking many despite knowing what was coming he would've been fine. Terrans should be maxing out with thor/viking/raven with only a small amount of tanks and hellions. I also don't know why terrans have forgotten ghosts even exist. Yes they were nerfed, but they were incredibly broken before - that doesn't mean they don't have uses now. Snipe is meh, but when we see zergs getting 20+ (even 40!?) infestors and no attempt at ghosts in any tournament or ladder match I've seen since the nerf, that's ridiculous. That's because Ghost-based compositions die to any tech switch whatsoever, and aren't even particularly effective at nullifying Infestors given that EMP isn't very efficient and that Snipe is hard to properly pull off against a smart Zerg. You wouldn't make ghosts until zerg committed to hive tech, and as ghosts are okay against anything zerg can make post lair, you'd be fine. Snipe isn't hard to pull off at all - it wasn't hard to mass snipe armies pre patch, and the mechanics behind snipe haven't changed (only the damage has). Zerg's never make overseers anymore vs terran, and even if they did, they die quickly to snipe (though it can be difficult to get to the overseers). I'm not saying to make 30 ghosts like before, but splitting up 3-4 and coming from the side to emp infestors can definitely be a game winning move. 3-4 Ghosts aren't going to be enough to kill any substantial number of Infestors against a competent player. You don't need to kill them, you emp them. Broodlord armies without a ton of infestor energy get mauled by thor/viking/raven compositions. Play the game instead of theorycrafting. Ghosts don't work because like any ground unit, they get swarmed by the endless stream of Broodlings. You can't even reach Infestors beneath Broodlords. I do play the game, I'm a masters zerg and I've been playing more terran than anything recently. You don't just stroll up with ghosts to the zerg base and hope to emp everything. Ideally, you would do it when an engagement happens. If they don't have overseers, which zergs in the current metagame never do, you get free emps unless they were keeping an eye out for ghosts and seperated an infestor to fungal your ghost (which isn't THAT big a of a deal, you can still snipe it). If they do have them, you'd have to wait for the engagement when the broodlords are attacking and then go for emps.
Oh good, so we just need to keep our fingers crossed and hope he doesn't have an Overseer? Seems like solid play.
On November 08 2012 00:39 arcane1129 wrote:
It may be a good idea, it may not. Either way, no terran anywhere that I've seen has even made an attempt at making it work. Hell, I've seen more threads about trying to make hydras work zvt then I've seen attempts at using ghosts in the past 6 months.
Maybe because Blizzard destroyed Ghost use in TvZ upon watching Mvp crush inferior Zergs after vastly outplaying them in midgame? Do you seriously think people didn't try everything? Ghosts have some use for nuke harass and hoping for some Snipes on Infestors while they move across the map. Certainly not for blanket EMPs in major engagements. You won't land a single EMP against a half-decent Zerg, because all he has to do when you move forward your Ghosts is simply retreating his Infestors a bit; after some seconds, all Ghosts are dead by Broodlords + Broodlings and he can bring Infestors closer to the fight again. And I'm not talking about theory here. I'm talking about actual attempts. Against Zergs who did have Overseers (because even if you don't face cloaked units, Changelings are extremely useful to scout army compositions).
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On November 08 2012 01:21 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 01:15 arcane1129 wrote:On November 08 2012 01:03 TheDwf wrote:On November 08 2012 01:00 arcane1129 wrote:On November 08 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 00:53 arcane1129 wrote:On November 08 2012 00:45 Shiori wrote:On November 08 2012 00:39 arcane1129 wrote:On November 07 2012 18:27 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 07 2012 18:06 Big J wrote:Because it's the best player in the world playing against some dude who hasn't achieved anything in SC2 yet. I am confused. Flash is the best SC2 player in the world, for that there is no doubt. But Life is a code S winner. So he has achieved something, right? You can't possibly be thinking Life is the best player in the world and Flash is ...'some dude'? You're either insane or read that wrong. He's saying Life is the best sc2 player and flash hasn't won anything in sc2 yet. I HATEEEE seeing terran players overmake tanks late game vs zerg. They're useless vs broodlords, and in my opinion even overmade pre-hive tech. Seeing mvp with 20 useless tanks that he suicided to buy time was painful to watch. If he hadn't made so freaking many despite knowing what was coming he would've been fine. Terrans should be maxing out with thor/viking/raven with only a small amount of tanks and hellions. I also don't know why terrans have forgotten ghosts even exist. Yes they were nerfed, but they were incredibly broken before - that doesn't mean they don't have uses now. Snipe is meh, but when we see zergs getting 20+ (even 40!?) infestors and no attempt at ghosts in any tournament or ladder match I've seen since the nerf, that's ridiculous. That's because Ghost-based compositions die to any tech switch whatsoever, and aren't even particularly effective at nullifying Infestors given that EMP isn't very efficient and that Snipe is hard to properly pull off against a smart Zerg. You wouldn't make ghosts until zerg committed to hive tech, and as ghosts are okay against anything zerg can make post lair, you'd be fine. Snipe isn't hard to pull off at all - it wasn't hard to mass snipe armies pre patch, and the mechanics behind snipe haven't changed (only the damage has). Zerg's never make overseers anymore vs terran, and even if they did, they die quickly to snipe (though it can be difficult to get to the overseers). I'm not saying to make 30 ghosts like before, but splitting up 3-4 and coming from the side to emp infestors can definitely be a game winning move. 3-4 Ghosts aren't going to be enough to kill any substantial number of Infestors against a competent player. You don't need to kill them, you emp them. Broodlord armies without a ton of infestor energy get mauled by thor/viking/raven compositions. Play the game instead of theorycrafting. Ghosts don't work because like any ground unit, they get swarmed by the endless stream of Broodlings. You can't even reach Infestors beneath Broodlords. I do play the game, I'm a masters zerg and I've been playing more terran than anything recently. You don't just stroll up with ghosts to the zerg base and hope to emp everything. Ideally, you would do it when an engagement happens. If they don't have overseers, which zergs in the current metagame never do, you get free emps unless they were keeping an eye out for ghosts and seperated an infestor to fungal your ghost (which isn't THAT big a of a deal, you can still snipe it). If they do have them, you'd have to wait for the engagement when the broodlords are attacking and then go for emps. Oh good, so we just need to keep our fingers crossed and hope he doesn't have an Overseer? Seems like solid play.
Way to cherry pick and ignore the rest of it.
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Tank shots are a better counter to infestors than EMP. It's another flaw in the countless list of reasons to hate the infestor and the reason pros make tanks instead of ghosts.
Similarly with HTs or Collo: You need T3 units to survive the battles to have a chance to make a decent lategame army against zerg. Collo shots usually aren't as good as feedbacks but they are bulky and can run away (army retention). One HT at best feedbacks 1 or 2 infestors and dies. At worst, it just dies.
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On November 08 2012 01:24 Salteador Neo wrote:
Tank shots are a better counter to infestors than EMP. It's another flaw in the countless list of reasons to hate the infestor and the reason pros make tanks instead of ghosts.
Similarly with HTs or Collo: You need T3 units to survive the battles to have a chance to make a decent lategame army against zerg. Collo shots usually aren't as good as feedbacks but they are bulky and can run away (army retention). One HT at best feedbacks 1 or 2 infestors and dies. At worst, it just dies.
I agree with what you say, but in all the late game mech vs bl/infestor games I've seen the compositions with a low tank count have almost always done better. I'm not saying no tanks, but something like 5 instead of 15 I think would go a long way. I've seen major do it a bunch on stream but it would take forever to find an example.
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The other issue with ghosts is that it's a million times easier to clump them up. Just like pros have been saying with Ravens, if you mess up for a split second you can lose all of your spell casters instantly. Ghosts are so tiny and vulnerable to FG. Infestors are by far the largest spell caster, their unit size is so big that even if you clump them up, they aren't that vulnerable to AOE like ghosts or HT's are. The only way you can mess up with infestors now is if you move command them into a siege line. I think reducing infestors scale would be a really subtle but effective way of bringing the game back in to balance.
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On November 08 2012 01:31 ckcornflake wrote:
The other issue with ghosts is that it's a million times easier to clump them up. Just like pros have been saying with Ravens, if you mess up for a split second you can lose all of your spell casters instantly. Ghosts are so tiny and vulnerable to FG. Infestors are by far the largest spell caster, their unit size is so big that even if you clump them up, they aren't that vulnerable to AOE like ghosts or HT's are. The only way you can mess up with infestors now is if you move command them into a siege line. I think reducing infestors scale would be a really subtle but effective way of bringing the game back in to balance.
Nice suggestion, I wouldn't mind seeing that played with a bit.
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On November 08 2012 01:31 ckcornflake wrote:
The other issue with ghosts is that it's a million times easier to clump them up. Just like pros have been saying with Ravens, if you mess up for a split second you can lose all of your spell casters instantly. Ghosts are so tiny and vulnerable to FG. Infestors are by far the largest spell caster, their unit size is so big that even if you clump them up, they aren't that vulnerable to AOE like ghosts or HT's are. The only way you can mess up with infestors now is if you move command them into a siege line. I think reducing infestors scale would be a really subtle but effective way of bringing the game back in to balance.
I dont think infestors scale are the issue now, it's just FG and Infested terran are way over the top. At least that's what i think.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 08 2012 01:35 CurseDawg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 01:31 ckcornflake wrote:
The other issue with ghosts is that it's a million times easier to clump them up. Just like pros have been saying with Ravens, if you mess up for a split second you can lose all of your spell casters instantly. Ghosts are so tiny and vulnerable to FG. Infestors are by far the largest spell caster, their unit size is so big that even if you clump them up, they aren't that vulnerable to AOE like ghosts or HT's are. The only way you can mess up with infestors now is if you move command them into a siege line. I think reducing infestors scale would be a really subtle but effective way of bringing the game back in to balance. I dont think infestors scale are the issue now, it's just FG and Infested terran are way over the top. At least that's what i think.
Infestors are perhaps the only spellcaster unit that cannot be punished for clumping since they are far too fat to eat AOE attacks. This is very...weird.
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On November 08 2012 01:35 CurseDawg wrote:
I dont think infestors scale are the issue now, it's just FG and Infested terran are way over the top. At least that's what i think.
You may be right. I would love to see what would happen if Blizzard changed the root of FG to a movement slowing ability. It would give people a chance to spread their units out a little bit and save at least a few if a huge clump got caught with a good FG.
However, I think reducing the scale of infestors would indirectly nerf their skills, as it would be much more dangerous to mass them. Think of when they throw down mass IT's. If their scale was smaller, more infestors would die to tanks or Colussus before they could even cast their spells. Ghosts would actually be useful again because a few good EMP's on a clumped infestor group could swing the game back into their favor. As it stands when they have 10 or more infestors, it's pretty much impossible to EMP them all, especially with nerfed 1.5 radius.
I would love to play an SC2 where all 3 race's spell casters have some use (but aren't required) in each match up. But as it stands, Zerg has a spell caster that is almost required (in late games), and can be massed each match up, Terran has a spell caster that only sees regular use in one match up (TvP), and Protoss HT's are good in PvT, some use in PvZ, and only used for archons in PvP.
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What i really dont get is why broodlings and infested terrans get upgrades! Infinite streams of 0 supply units at 3-3 upgrades is just sooooo powerful. If they were stuck at 0-0 things would make much more sense.
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The only reason why Ghosts should be used in TvZ are Nukes otherwise they are just a waste of ressources. Sure if they don't make Overseers you can earn easy wins now and then but that's counting on the Zerg making a pretty big mistake.
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Germany165 Posts
On November 08 2012 01:54 ckcornflake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 01:35 CurseDawg wrote:
I dont think infestors scale are the issue now, it's just FG and Infested terran are way over the top. At least that's what i think. You may be right. I would love to see what would happen if Blizzard changed the root of FG to a movement slowing ability. It would give people a chance to spread their units out a little bit and save at least a few if a huge clump got caught with a good FG. However, I think reducing the scale of infestors would indirectly nerf their skills, as it would be much more dangerous to mass them. Think of when they throw down mass IT's. If their scale was smaller, more infestors would die to tanks or Colussus before they could even cast their spells. Ghosts would actually be useful again because a few good EMP's on a clumped infestor group could swing the game back into their favor. As it stands when they have 10 or more infestors, it's pretty much impossible to EMP them all, especially with nerfed 1.5 radius. I would love to play an SC2 where all 3 race's spell casters have some use (but aren't required) in each match up. But as it stands, Zerg has a spell caster that is almost required (in late games), and can be massed each match up, Terran has a spell caster that only sees regular use in one match up (TvP), and Protoss HT's are good in PvT, some use in PvZ, and only used for archons in PvP.
This is in my opinion the biggest problem. Just give Zerg some viable alternatives.
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On November 06 2012 21:47 Zihn wrote:
Roach changes 1 food, 10+6bio
Hydra changes 1 food 8+4light 75min/25gas
Immortal Sentry all in... now GODLIKE. Hell, even the much slower/weaker blinkstalker all-ins would suddenly become ridiculously overpowered.
I hope you realize halving their food costs makes them slightly cheaper, but only really has a big effect during late-midgame onward.
Hydras would still have very little offensive potential, even less, really because they are weaker vs every protoss builing and unit but Zealot/HT/DT.
Roaches go from killing Stalkers in 11 shots to killing them in 19 shots O.o with guardian shield... I don't even want to think about it.
Please, think about how your changes would effect every match up before you post.
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Someone is talking about one supply roaches again? :S :O
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On November 08 2012 02:13 GeneralSnoop wrote:
What i really dont get is why broodlings and infested terrans get upgrades! Infinite streams of 0 supply units at 3-3 upgrades is just sooooo powerful. If they were stuck at 0-0 things would make much more sense.
Uh, ... Why should a unit not be upgraded like everything else? it is not an infinite stream. It is based on energy and the amount of units you have. If it was infinite I could launch 400 broodlings at start of game. I proved your statement false.
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On November 08 2012 06:55 President Dead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 02:13 GeneralSnoop wrote:
What i really dont get is why broodlings and infested terrans get upgrades! Infinite streams of 0 supply units at 3-3 upgrades is just sooooo powerful. If they were stuck at 0-0 things would make much more sense. Uh, ... Why should a unit not be upgraded like everything else? it is not an infinite stream. It is based on energy and the amount of units you have. If it was infinite I could launch 400 broodlings at start of game. I proved your statement false.
Probably because fighting a 200/200 Zerg deathball + 50 3/3 Marines is virtually impossible. Just fighting the deathball is pretty much impossible in a lot of cases. Adding half a Terran army is just silly. Frankly, I don't know why ITs are even in the game when Fungal basically does the same job.
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Yeah consider 30 infestors full of energy spawn 240 ITs who have like the DPS of a roach (just 60 roaches are scary lol). Also any retarded number of spines behind since they don't use supply.
Plus in HotS the new zerg unit that produces units as long as its burrowed.
Zerg is the SC2 Chuck Norris. They count to infinite, three times.
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EPT
