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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 382
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terranimbastimamove
United States81 Posts
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On November 07 2012 17:39 terranimbastimamove wrote: zerg op While that maybe true or not, this thread's purpose is to discuss why something is imbalanced or not, why, and how to remedy that. Wildly thrown statements like 'x is op' aren't constructive and lack arguments to be perceived as anything but spam/trolling. So please, reword your post into something like that: 'I feel zerg is currently too strong because ....' | ||
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KentHenry
United States260 Posts
There was one particular moment in one of their games that made me rage and cry out imbalance. I believe it was game 3 on Entombed Valley. Flash opens FE and Life opens with a 10 pool, Flash defends and the game becomes a macro intensive game. Both players have good econ and great army compositions for the mid-late game and Life has excellent creep spread. Flash was slow pushing across the map and Life did a nice counter that made Flash retreat his entire army back to defend the counter. Because of the game mechanics, Flash's entire army bunches into a ball and begins to retreat, at this time since Life had vision because of Creep and Xel'naga tower, moves in with his ling/bling/infestor composition and with just 2 fungals, Flash's entire army of Marine Tank becomes rooted and is swarmed and obliterated. Flash had no choice but to GG and lose the first game in their extended series. My main issue with this is that Zergs late game is seriously good. Zerg has excellent army composition with Infestors, Brood Lord and Bling, along with the amazing creep spread that grants speed bonus and vision (player skill dependent). If Zerg can just defend until Brood Lords/Infestor, it's pretty much a guaranteed win against the Terran. The Infestors fungal growth spell is just too versatile and the root characteristic hinders any player from microing to fight and stay alive in the game. When a large group of Infestors can lock down units indefinitely then that is a serious issue that needs to be addressed, but this will most likely never happen. Ghosts are the counter to Infestors right? Wrong. It is so easy for Zerg to just pop an overseer for any cloaked Ghosts trying to sneak by. And honestly, must Zerg players that I have encountered on ladder usually make Infestors to just hold out until their hive tech is complete and they can produce Brood Lords alongside more Infestors, once the game gets to that point Ghosts are no longer viable since Snipe was apparently too good and had to be nerfed. Terran's late game is seriously lacking right now, I think the main issue is with Terran's spell casters. EMP is very race specific, it only really hurts Protoss (literally); otherwise it just drains energy and that's it. The Raven is severely lacking creativity, auto turrets and pdd are the only energy efficient spell it has. Seeker Missile is complete garbage because 75% of the time it doesn't even hit it's target and it cost 125 energy to cast a spell that doesn't even guarantee damage. Seriously, how does Blizzard not see that Terran's spell casters is what is really hurting Terran late game. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 07 2012 17:27 KentHenry wrote: I'm still upset that Flash went 0-4 against Life, when Flash 2-0 Life an hour earlier at MLG Dallas. What makes me most upset is people saying that the only reason Flash won his first 2 games against Life is because Life played awful by throwing away Infestors and Corruptors. Flash didn't win those games because he played well, he won those games because Life was playing sloppy, is what was being implied. For two equally skilled players, apparently the only way for Terran to win is if the Zerg plays sloppy... Hahahahahaha... Equally skilled??? Are you kidding me? Flash is Code A right now . Not because he hasn't had enough time, but because he didn't qualify for Code S. Might be that he is the god of Broodwar and that a lot of what he does in SC2 already shows that he can be one of the best in SC2 as well. But right now, this was a match between a freaking Code A Terran and the King of Code S. Life is supposed to destroy Flash these days, that's why people say the only reason why he lost is sloppy play. Not because it's TvZ. Because it's the best player in the world playing against some dude who hasn't achieved anything in SC2 yet. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On November 07 2012 18:06 Big J wrote:Because it's the best player in the world playing against some dude who hasn't achieved anything in SC2 yet. I am confused. Flash is the best SC2 player in the world, for that there is no doubt. But Life is a code S winner. So he has achieved something, right? You can't possibly be thinking Life is the best player in the world and Flash is ...'some dude'? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 07 2012 18:27 sieksdekciw wrote: I am confused. Flash is the best SC2 player in the world, for that there is no doubt. But Life is a code S winner. So he has achieved something, right? You can't possibly be thinking Life is the best player in the world and Flash is ...'some dude'? Completly agree with your first sentence  | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
DRG rolls IMMvp like "some terran" even though both players played great and the series looked very onesided anyways. terran are continuously decreasing in numbers, be that on ladder (anywhere but bronze), in EU and NA proscene, and now even in korea. 40 Infestors is apparently a good number for a high level game, making infestors is a good still toi have! but no, zergs try to throw smokescreens so the issue can be ignored, maybe delude themselves that it is their skill that wins them games, but truth is, they are too strong, and now it has reached even the highest level of play, the amount of effort compared to the reward, or required skill compared to reward is just wrong. so please continue to flamebait, troll and degrade players like flash or IMMvp (the LR of his Ro32 group was disgusting), but should blizzard decide to balance zerg like they balanced terran, do not cry too much if you drop a league, because if terran is balanced around Mvp and Protoss around MC / Seed / Rain, then Zerg at the moment is balanced around Idra, maybe even Scarlett if that makes you feel better, but not around the tiptop koreans. | ||
Roth
Germany165 Posts
Possible alternatives such like Muta/Ling/Bane or the Ultralisk lategame are much more entertaining to watch (Leenock vs Bomber @ MLG Dallas) but the Zerg just runs a huge risk being defeted because of insane marine micro and good makro back home by the Terran. You can go Muta but going Infestor will be the saver way to victory. So before nerving Infestors (be it Fungal, Infested Terrans or both) Blizzard needs to get Zerg a cost efficent alternative that can come up with Marine/Tank, Mech, mass Stalker, Deathball or Vortex. Unless all Zerg will fall in a big slump. So I would start buffing other Zergunits such like the Muta or Ultralisk or nerv the other races in some parts before the Infestor gets nerved. To sum up: I just want to point out that the Infestor is the backbone of (most) Zergarmies and to nerv it without changing other thing in the game Zerg will be pretty weak. | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
On November 07 2012 21:27 Roth wrote: I, as a Zergplayer myself, have the feeling that Zerg is pretty strong at the moment. Especially the Infestor seems unbeatable. But to be fair the Infestor is the only unit that gives Zerg some kind of comfort moving into battles. Yes, it is too cost efficent in some points but the real problem is that Zerg does not have that much alternatives. Possible alternatives such like Muta/Ling/Bane or the Ultralisk lategame are much more entertaining to watch (Leenock vs Bomber @ MLG Dallas) but the Zerg just runs a huge risk being defeted because of insane marine micro and good makro back home by the Terran. You can go Muta but going Infestor will be the saver way to victory. So before nerving Infestors (be it Fungal, Infested Terrans or both) Blizzard needs to get Zerg a cost efficent alternative that can come up with Marine/Tank, Mech, mass Stalker, Deathball or Vortex. Unless all Zerg will fall in a big slump. So I would start buffing other Zergunits such like the Muta or Ultralisk or nerv the other races in some parts before the Infestor gets nerved. To sum up: I just want to point out that the Infestor is the backbone of (most) Zergarmies and to nerv it without changing other thing in the game Zerg will be pretty weak. that would only apply if they destroy the infestor like they did with the reaper or snipe, a small to medium nerf would be acceptable this instant. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Rules: 1. Balance Discussion, not Balance Whining This means no "OMG TERRAN OP!" posts. Make specific claims about what you think is imbalanced and how they could be addressed. It's quite obvious to most that the game is not drastically imbalanced so acting like it is will be frowned upon. 2. No excessive hyperbole. "There is nothing Zerg can do against this. This game is broken beyond repair. Blizzard are dumbasses." 3. No Repetitive Denial of Racial Viability If you say "How do you deal with Colossus as Terran" and someone says "Vikings", don't just say "Vikings will just die to stalkers" over and over again for every suggestion people give you. 4. No False Claims of "Proof" Balance is always open for discussion, even 5 rax reaper!. So don't say "Blasted PvP Code A finals proves Protoss imba!" Maybe it's a good idea to repeat these rules, seeing recent posts. | ||
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Roth
Germany165 Posts
On November 07 2012 21:41 Naphal wrote: that would only apply if they destroy the infestor like they did with the reaper or snipe, a small to medium nerf would be acceptable this instant. Yea, I guess you are right. Seems like I do not have that much faith in Blizzard  | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On November 07 2012 18:27 sieksdekciw wrote: I am confused. Flash is the best SC2 player in the world, for that there is no doubt. But Life is a code S winner. So he has achieved something, right? You can't possibly be thinking Life is the best player in the world and Flash is ...'some dude'? I can agree that it is highly possible that Flash is the best RTS player in sc2. But there are strong arguments to say that he is not the best sc2 player at this time. Let him first actually win a tournament. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Pazuzu
United States632 Posts
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arcane1129
United States268 Posts
On November 07 2012 18:27 sieksdekciw wrote: I am confused. Flash is the best SC2 player in the world, for that there is no doubt. But Life is a code S winner. So he has achieved something, right? You can't possibly be thinking Life is the best player in the world and Flash is ...'some dude'? You're either insane or read that wrong. He's saying Life is the best sc2 player and flash hasn't won anything in sc2 yet. I HATEEEE seeing terran players overmake tanks late game vs zerg. They're useless vs broodlords, and in my opinion even overmade pre-hive tech. Seeing mvp with 20 useless tanks that he suicided to buy time was painful to watch. If he hadn't made so freaking many despite knowing what was coming he would've been fine. Terrans should be maxing out with thor/viking/raven with only a small amount of tanks and hellions. I also don't know why terrans have forgotten ghosts even exist. Yes they were nerfed, but they were incredibly broken before - that doesn't mean they don't have uses now. Snipe is meh, but when we see zergs getting 20+ (even 40!?) infestors and no attempt at ghosts in any tournament or ladder match I've seen since the nerf, that's ridiculous. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 08 2012 00:39 arcane1129 wrote: You're either insane or read that wrong. He's saying Life is the best sc2 player and flash hasn't won anything in sc2 yet. I HATEEEE seeing terran players overmake tanks late game vs zerg. They're useless vs broodlords, and in my opinion even overmade pre-hive tech. Seeing mvp with 20 useless tanks that he suicided to buy time was painful to watch. If he hadn't made so freaking many despite knowing what was coming he would've been fine. Terrans should be maxing out with thor/viking/raven with only a small amount of tanks and hellions. I also don't know why terrans have forgotten ghosts even exist. Yes they were nerfed, but they were incredibly broken before - that doesn't mean they don't have uses now. Snipe is meh, but when we see zergs getting 20+ (even 40!?) infestors and no attempt at ghosts in any tournament or ladder match I've seen since the nerf, that's ridiculous. That's because Ghost-based compositions die to any tech switch whatsoever, and aren't even particularly effective at nullifying Infestors given that EMP isn't very efficient and that Snipe is hard to properly pull off against a smart Zerg. | ||
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arcane1129
United States268 Posts
On November 08 2012 00:45 Shiori wrote: That's because Ghost-based compositions die to any tech switch whatsoever, and aren't even particularly effective at nullifying Infestors given that EMP isn't very efficient and that Snipe is hard to properly pull off against a smart Zerg. You wouldn't make ghosts until zerg committed to hive tech, and as ghosts are okay against anything zerg can make post lair, you'd be fine. Snipe isn't hard to pull off at all - it wasn't hard to mass snipe armies pre patch, and the mechanics behind snipe haven't changed (only the damage has). Zerg's never make overseers anymore vs terran, and even if they did, they die quickly to snipe (though it can be difficult to get to the overseers). I'm not saying to make 30 ghosts like before, but splitting up 3-4 and coming from the side to emp infestors can definitely be a game winning move. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 08 2012 00:53 arcane1129 wrote: You wouldn't make ghosts until zerg committed to hive tech, and as ghosts are okay against anything zerg can make post lair, you'd be fine. Snipe isn't hard to pull off at all - it wasn't hard to mass snipe armies pre patch, and the mechanics behind snipe haven't changed (only the damage has). Zerg's never make overseers anymore vs terran, and even if they did, they die quickly to snipe (though it can be difficult to get to the overseers). I'm not saying to make 30 ghosts like before, but splitting up 3-4 and coming from the side to emp infestors can definitely be a game winning move. 3-4 Ghosts aren't going to be enough to kill any substantial number of Infestors against a competent player. | ||
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arcane1129
United States268 Posts
On November 08 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote: 3-4 Ghosts aren't going to be enough to kill any substantial number of Infestors against a competent player. You don't need to kill them, you emp them. Broodlord armies without a ton of infestor energy get mauled by thor/viking/raven compositions. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On November 08 2012 00:53 arcane1129 wrote: You wouldn't make ghosts until zerg committed to hive tech, and as ghosts are okay against anything zerg can make post lair, you'd be fine. Snipe isn't hard to pull off at all - it wasn't hard to mass snipe armies pre patch, and the mechanics behind snipe haven't changed (only the damage has). Zerg's never make overseers anymore vs terran, and even if they did, they die quickly to snipe (though it can be difficult to get to the overseers). I'm not saying to make 30 ghosts like before, but splitting up 3-4 and coming from the side to emp infestors can definitely be a game winning move. What are you talking about? Ghost are dreadful against both hive units now. There's absolutely no point in making a ghost out of the same barracks that can make marauders since the latter is so much better against ultras, and you don't want them either against broods because of their total lack of versatility. A few ghosts to help you against infestors is fine, but do you really want to go down yet another obscure tech path with limited utility when it's already difficult enough as it is to get to that raven-based ultimate mech/sky army? | ||
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