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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 07 2012 01:49 malaan wrote: Rain lost because he played to greedily. Nothing to do with balance, Leenock scouted his greedy play and punished him for it. That's basically how PvZ works. The Protoss player either all-ins or tries to cut a corner while hoping that the Zerg player assumed they'd do the opposite. It's not fun and it's not particularly fair. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On November 07 2012 03:30 Shiori wrote: That's basically how PvZ works. The Protoss player either all-ins or tries to cut a corner while hoping that the Zerg player assumed they'd do the opposite. It's not fun and it's not particularly fair. But that's true even in mirror matchups.... | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 07 2012 03:31 neoghaleon55 wrote: But that's true even in mirror matchups.... Not in PvP. I can't speak to the other mirrors, but PvP is far from the coinflip people think it is. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On November 07 2012 03:31 neoghaleon55 wrote: But that's true even in mirror matchups.... Not quite. Protoss in PvZ have to either be super greedy or prepare to do an all-in. There is no middle ground. Now that zergs know how to deal with vortex they have a huge advantage late game, and because of that they know toss doesn't have many options so they can throw all sorts of different builds at them. Toss is going to continually do worse against zerg and I don't see them getting out of it unless some balance change is made | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On November 06 2012 05:35 SlixSC wrote: First of all, I wasn't discussing balance at all. I made no comments on balance at all, I was simply pointing out a factual error in someone's post. This isn't really true, the last available win rates for TvP are last month's win rate where Protoss had a 52% win rate vs. Terran. This was posted a few pages ago in this very thread. I don't see how this would prove that there is some sort of imbalance in TvP (a 53% win rate really doesn't imply that at all), but again, please provide actual evidence for the win rates you are posting here. Simply naming a number isn't sufficient enough evidence, you at the very least have to give us a source. Now you are just cherry - picking stats to prove a point I'm not arguing against. I never said TvP is imbalanced and I really don't think 46 games prove imbalance one way or the other. "Oh and there were 0 Protoss in the top 4". Really? How did you set the standard for which "top x" matters? 0 Protoss in the Top 4, but 2 Protoss in the Top 6, but only the top 4 matters? I hope you understand that this is confirmation bias and cherry-picking evidence to an extreme. I think there is something intellectually dishonest about what you just said and I think you're going to end up paying a price for that. While it is true that 80 games do not prove imbalance, I think you will find that this cuts both ways and it doesn't make the statement "the win rates are stable" any more true. Unless what you mean by stable is "Terran having consistently bad win rates in TvZ" then no, the win rates are not stable. I'm not saying you said that, but you and many others didn't seem to have a problem with someone asserting that "the win rates are stable", thus using win rates to prove the game is balanced (which is not only factually incorrect but also purely subjective) but you very much so have a problem with someone pointing out that this person is wrong and that win rates are in fact not stable. And again I never made any comments about balance at all, so please stop with the strawman "...but in TvP" - arguments. So the entire argument up until this point has been about TvP balance, and suddenly, you come in, start representing win rates for the matchup no one is debating. Why are you commenting on this if your not talking about what's actually being discussed here? I'm not strawmanning, this discussion is about Terran vs. Protoss. There's no point in responding to you if your suddenly trying to change the topic. I never even stated that TvP lategame is Terran favored. The matchup is balanced. I was responding to the guy who claimed the matchup is Protoss favored in the lategame. If your not actually talking about what is being discussed, then go away. It doesn't make any sense for you to talk about TvZ winrates, if the matchup in question is TvP. Go away, no one was even debating TvP with you. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11076 Posts
On November 07 2012 03:34 Shiori wrote: Not in PvP. I can't speak to the other mirrors, but PvP is far from the coinflip people think it is. People generally don't understand how the race works -.-. People talking about an infestor mix are missing the bigger issue of bliz giving zerg 3 free bases in ZvP/T. The nerfing to death of protoss harass and lack of subtlety in TvZ tweaking ends up where the zerg is always a few minutes ahead of the other races with tech. The worst part about this thead and the complaints is how frequently you could have made the same statement more than half a year ago. | ||
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Crashburn
United States476 Posts
Individual games PvT: 10-5 (66.7%) PvZ: 5-10 (33.3%) TvZ: 7-15 (46.7%) Overall, individual games Protoss: 15-15 (50%) Terran: 12-25 (32.4%) Zerg: 25-12 (67.6%) 2 Protoss players have advanced (Parting, Creator), while 5 have dropped. 4 terran players have advanced while 6 have dropped. 6 zerg players have advanced while 1 has dropped. Percentage of advancement Protoss: 2/12 (16.7%) Terran: 4/12 (33.3%) Zerg: 6/12 (50%) Percentage of dropping out Protoss: 5/12 (41.7%) Terran: 6/12 (50%) Zerg: 1/12 (8.3%) Interesting food for thought. Not that it is definitive of anything in the least. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On November 07 2012 08:00 Crashburn wrote: Not commenting on anything specifically -- especially with the small sample sizes -- but I just did a bit of data sorting and here's what I have from the current season of Code S with two groups left to play: Individual games PvT: 10-5 (66.7%) PvZ: 5-10 (33.3%) TvZ: 7-15 (46.7%) Overall, individual games Protoss: 15-15 (50%) Terran: 12-25 (32.4%) Zerg: 25-12 (67.6%) 2 Protoss players have advanced (Parting, Creator), while 5 have dropped. 4 terran players have advanced while 6 have dropped. 6 zerg players have advanced while 1 has dropped. Percentage of advancement Protoss: 2/12 (16.7%) Terran: 4/12 (33.3%) Zerg: 6/12 (50%) Percentage of dropping out Protoss: 5/12 (41.7%) Terran: 6/12 (50%) Zerg: 1/12 (8.3%) Interesting food for thought. Not that it is definitive of anything in the least. TvZ should be 31.8% Otherwise, this just reinforces the general feeling most people have right now. Zerg is doing really well, Protoss isn't doing doing that great, and Terran is doing awful (but nobody wants to hear Terran complain any more). | ||
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Crashburn
United States476 Posts
On November 07 2012 08:10 aksfjh wrote: TvZ should be 31.8% Otherwise, this just reinforces the general feeling most people have right now. Zerg is doing really well, Protoss isn't doing doing that great, and Terran is doing awful (but nobody wants to hear Terran complain any more). Thanks for catching that mistake. But yeah, it lines up with my preconceived notions at least. I've been increasingly bored watching Starcraft 2 lately. I just do it more out of habit lately. I dunno how much more BL/infestor vs. mothership I can take. | ||
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President Dead
97 Posts
As of Sept 22nd, All leagues North America Europe Korea PvT 53% 54% 49% PvZ 47% 48% 49% TvZ 50% 52% 49% Master + GM only North America Europe Korea PvT 48% 49% 43% PvZ 57% 57% 48% TvZ 59% 57% 52% Now let's make a new game. It will be an RTS just like StarCraft, however the development team will simply have to make 3 (different) races with entirely new units. When the game is released, two years later it must have a win-ratio similar to that above. Blizzard made a game in which the differentiation of win-rates is at most 10%, and with a mean at around 5% differential. That's REALLY fucking good. That is pretty hard to do and you need some serious thought to make a game come together like that. Blizzard is doing their job very well. Go Blizzard!!! :D | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
I don't know how many more games I can take where the zerg throws away-infestors for free, I get countless drone kills, deny expansions while fending off harass and run by's with no losses and the game still effectively resets to even or zerg favored the second the hive units start pouring out. | ||
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Crashburn
United States476 Posts
On November 07 2012 11:43 President Dead wrote: @Crashburn, it's not definitive at all. Way too small a sample size. Which is what I said, repeatedly. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
We are thinking of making interceptors immune to Infestor's fungal growth. Hey David Kim must be reading this thread- he's copying my idea!  | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On November 07 2012 12:37 tomatriedes wrote: Hey David Kim must be reading this thread- he's copying my idea! Only interceptors immune? Thats lame! On November 07 2012 11:43 President Dead wrote: Now let's make a new game. It will be an RTS just like StarCraft, however the development team will simply have to make 3 (different) races with entirely new units. When the game is released, two years later it must have a win-ratio similar to that above. Blizzard made a game in which the differentiation of win-rates is at most 10%, and with a mean at around 5% differential. That's REALLY fucking good. That is pretty hard to do and you need some serious thought to make a game come together like that. Blizzard is doing their job very well. Go Blizzard!!! :D Since you are sooo in love with statistics and thus math you could perhaps explain to me the wisdom of making a game ... ... where the infantry units CAN BE clumped up so tightly together that any attack which affects an area is going to kill a lot if it deals enough damage to kill a single unit ... and thus has to be nerfed into near-uselessness. AoE attacks are one way to make the game interesting and certain units rely upon that, but if their attacks are only "mildly tingling" they cease to be dangerous. ... where the three races have production speed boosts which kick in at different times and thus give the race a clear advantage once it does. How are such games going to be FUN? You can make a game "balanced" on the outside by adding crutches like Fungal and Forcefield (and Concussive Shells), but that balance stands on a knife's edge. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On November 07 2012 11:43 President Dead wrote: @Crashburn, it's not definitive at all. Way too small a sample size. As of Sept 22nd, All leagues North America Europe Korea PvT 53% 54% 49% PvZ 47% 48% 49% TvZ 50% 52% 49% Master + GM only North America Europe Korea PvT 48% 49% 43% PvZ 57% 57% 48% TvZ 59% 57% 52% Now let's make a new game. It will be an RTS just like StarCraft, however the development team will simply have to make 3 (different) races with entirely new units. When the game is released, two years later it must have a win-ratio similar to that above. Blizzard made a game in which the differentiation of win-rates is at most 10%, and with a mean at around 5% differential. That's REALLY fucking good. That is pretty hard to do and you need some serious thought to make a game come together like that. Blizzard is doing their job very well. Go Blizzard!!! :D You just quoted winrates from september of 2011. Its not hard to make winrates close to 50% when ladder system is implemented. Also these are "adjusted" winrates whatever that means. | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
Problem: Both Terran and Protoss are having a lot of difficulties dealing with late game Zerg compositions involving Infestors and Broodlords, regardless of which player seemed to have an advantage up to this point, I consider this to be an issue that affects spectators as well as players as many people have been venting their frustrations with regards to it. I am proposing a two-part solution but I am going to separate it to deal with each individually. Solution Part 1: Change Fungal Growth to a slow instead of stun. While I realise I am nowhere near the first person to suggest this I feel it is the best solution. I would really love to see this it least tried in the PTR just to see how it would play out, somewhere from 50-80% movement reduction seems reasonable to me. Reasoning: Firstly, I think it makes more sense, especially for air units, if it is going to prevent air units from moving, shouldn't they be unable to stay in the air and fall to the ground? More importantly, I feel it would both be more fair and more interesting to watch. Rather than negate available micro of units that are effected, they would just have reduced micro capacity, with support they could still be chased down, without support the Infestors could still escape and chain Fungals would still be possible, but wouldn't be guaranteed and would require more skill if the units try to target down the Infestors. Side Effects: The side effects for this change are quite broad and would depend on the percentage of slow, which would have to be tested and set to an appropriate level but for the most part I believe they would be positive. In theory (in my mind at least) Infestors would retain their current utility in most situations albeit with a bit less effectiveness. For example: Infestors would still be useful at deterring Phoenix or Muta's but chain fungals would not guarantee death for all those caught, Infestors would still be good at delaying or slowing down pushes but they could not stop them completely in their tracks without sufficient support. Solution Part 2: Change Broodlings spawned from Broodlords so that they do not restrict the pathing of units. This could be achieved either by having the Broodlings hover around their target (since they fly along with the Broodlords to begin with it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch) or by making Broodlings able to be pushed around like ally units. Reasoning: I find Broodlords capacity to restrict movement both frustrating to deal with as a player and it's really not spectator friendly (IMO). I feel that Broodlords are already quite powerful without forcing opponents to fight the AI while attempting to combat them. Side Effects: The main side effect, and the one I am aiming for, is that units fighting Broodlords will have freedom to move, this, coupled with a Fungal that slows instead of stuns, would give Terran and Protoss armies a lot more maneuverability when engaging a Broodlord/Infestor based army. I really think that Zerg late game would still be quite powerful, but the other races would be able to engage more favourably and react in the midst of battle. Zerg players would still be able to negate enemy movements with Zergling surrounds, but at least they would be expending Minerals and Supply rather than free Broodlings. One of the negative side effects for Zerg would be that unsupported Broodlords would be more vulnerable, but they are already quite vulnerable as it is so I don't see it as a huge issue. These are two options I would really like to see tried, preferably both at the same time because we all know the Broodlord/Infestor combination is powerful and it should be for how expensive it is and how long it takes to get, so I suggest not nerfing it's raw power, but allowing the other races more freedom in trying to combat it. | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On November 07 2012 16:19 keglu wrote: You just quoted winrates from september of 2011. Its not hard to make winrates close to 50% when ladder system is implemented. Also these are "adjusted" winrates whatever that means. 100% what you said. LOL. Queen patch and usage of Infestors changed significantly from last year buddy. Also, Blizz forcing 50% balance rate thru ladder doesnt mean shit. One race might be OP but I will still manage 50/50 win ratio if I keep playing on ladder because Blizz will match me with lower players. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/3551858/StarCraft_II_Balance_Snapshot_-9_22_2011 AKA. Blizz stats in 2011. | ||
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Greenwizard
48 Posts
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
I am so disapointed  I honestly didn't think any changes would happen until HOTS though, not enough man-power to maintain both games. | ||
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KentHenry
United States260 Posts
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