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On November 06 2012 10:37 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 10:17 Godwrath wrote:On November 06 2012 10:02 gengka wrote:On November 06 2012 07:04 TimENT wrote:On November 06 2012 06:52 President Dead wrote:On November 06 2012 06:25 Prime Directive wrote:
Anyone else think infested terrans are the actual problem behind the infestor? In my opinion they make the unit appealing to mass. Fungal does have diminishing returns. No. The problem I'm seeing with everyone's rationale is that for every reason they may believe Infestor to be imbalanced there always seems to be myself or other people in whom can counter that same rationale that is perfectly reasonable to anyone who is sensible. Name one thing that you feel is "wrong" with the Infestor and for some crazy reason I can think of a way to counter your idea of why it's wrong. Go ahead. I for one believe the game is balanced enough, and the real work is to be done with how the game is played and increasing your creative possibilities. It's time now to turn this mush into muscles!!! No. The infestor is a support spellcaster. I have seen 37 of them at once in the most high level professional Korean game vs Terran (it would work vs Toss and Zerg too). The infestor stops everything from being viable. I can't see 37 high templar, 37 ravens, 37 ghosts(ghosts were nerfed when this was the case), 37 DEFILERS LOLOL (the BW "equivalent"), or any other spell caster basically being a standalone army. The infestor was designed to support the zerg army. By using 1-5, it should support the Zerg army. The problem is, is that is doesn't support the zerg army. It IS the zerg army. Even if the balance is 50/50 in every matchup, this is a problem. Was it Bomber vs Freaky that the zerg countered Bomber's Mass BC+ravens with pure infestors? and when the zerg was down to one last mining base he was able to defend it with pure infestors and spines while harrassing with infestors at the same time. and in the end he won the game by infestors? if a pure spellcasters army can counter tier3+tier2 200/200 army and that's not imba, for god sake i shall quit starcrat 2 FOREVER Nah was MLG against Leenock. Bomber had a deja vu moment for sure. Nah it was Bomber vs Freaky in a team league actually.
Or was that seed v symbol where symbol massed up 50 infestors to counter the carrier/collosi/HT/Archon army with ease? Or was it BeastQT v JRecco where it was raven/tank/BC/thor/ghost/banshee v infestors, in which the mass infestor army cleaned up the high tech, diverse army with minimal loss? I think this list continues, which is the huge problem with infestors, it counters pretty much everything when massed. To the original point of these quotes, I actually think infested terran is possibly the biggest problem. They allow infestors to be massable because you can always use the excess energy. If the only spell was fungal, then you probably want 5-6 to get the fungals at the start of the fight to have a favorable engagement, just like HT. But with IT, now you want 5-6 to get the fungals, and you want 25-30 to spit out 100 or so IT eggs to clean up the army you just fungaled.
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On November 06 2012 09:42 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 09:20 chatuka wrote:On November 06 2012 09:05 Resistentialism wrote:A banshee should upholds the meaning of its name. This fast flying unit should be one of the fastest units of the game period.
There is logical reason to explain why the hellion and the speedling is faster than a flying unit. how is a ferrari faster than an airplane or even a helicopter? Because it's a video game and a wizard did it. You must REALLY have not thought this through, because you're giving me lore argument instead of a game balance argument. Try thinking it through, right now. so it's okay for you to have a banshee as fast as a marine. The game needs to be somewhat realistic to be playable. That is the irony of entertainment. We have to be in suspended belief. If it's okay for you to have banshees that are slower than ground forces god bless you. It's not okay on my end. I leave it at that. You're right, the lore needs to be more believable for the game to be playable. I mean, how do Medivacs heal all bio units and repair Marine's armor without even coming into contact with them? They should have to land and sit there while Marines file on board on at a time to be healed and repaired, and that should take a while. Or perhaps you'd like to explain to me how an electromagnetic pulse disrupts Protoss psionic energy? And while you're at it, you might also want to explore how Dark Templar can no longer form into Dark Archons, where Scourge and Defilers disappeared to, and why Hellions can outrun Mutalisks. It makes no sense, right? Clearly, Hellions need their speed nerfed so they don't outrun flying units.
*That is quite an unbelievable thing blizzard did with medivacs i agree. BUt their explanation, blizzard that is, that high tech lazers from the sky can heel wounds and sultures to intended targets.
* EMPs disrupting psionic energy, at that is somewhat believable. i guess in the year 2522, humans will able to develop emps that can somehow disupt psionic energy.
* I think hellions are ridiciously too fast as well. that is my opinion. As for dark templars being able to morph into archons, i don't get that part of the story either.
You aren't exactly rebutting my point. I never made this about lore. I just said the story has to be somewhat believable. I don't think that have flying units that move slower than ground units, lets say marines, is believable at all. Besides being argumentative, i find it quite funny you needing to authorize what is lore and what it isn't. I'm just talking simple human earth-like physics.
just using my imagination, i still can't IMAGINE how a banshee is moving as slow as a marine. It doesn't make sense in my imagination. other wild concoctions blizzard created can be somewhat imagined in my mind.. Hence, people need to be in suspended disbelief. movies,videogames and novels are about this idea that fantasy needs to be somewhat believable. That
that post modern world can have wild machinations, but needs to be rooted in some kind of futuristic technology that could be potentially available. The story also needs to be rooted in contextual history or culture. medieval fighting games would make no sense with Machine guns. As futuristic war games would not make sense with bronze age swords and daggers.
The main thrust of my argument was how to balance the terran units more effectively against zergs. I kind of suggested that banshees get a speed boost to buff the weak unit. And, I kind of got carried away with the absurdity of why banshees are slower than ground units.
You talk about realism in a game where 2 of the 3 races are completely invented.
Realism went out the window a long time ago.
So it's okay if suspended belief was completely thrown out the window. That spider-man could fly without any explanation. Or
that superheroes are immortal. I don't think you are really arguing but supporting my point. I said that Starcraft is a post modern
fantasy war game. Just like how people love to get caught up in comics and cartoons. At least on earth. gravity, and physics have to make a little sense. That is all i am asking for. If you think different, that's great. You aren't going to change my opinion about this subject no matter how hard you try.
Should I go on, or have is it clear to you yet that no one is buying your list of Terran buffs as needing to be done on a lore basis when you're not looking at needed Terran nerfs or changing the other races?
Who are you speaking for exactly? at the moment Zerg is a pretty strong race. Protoss has been buffed also. Though, the void ray, photon cannons, and phoenix need to become a more viable part of the game. As for whether people care, it is up to blizzard to read the thread and see what adjustment is viable to THEIR game SC2. I am just trying to help blizzard make a better game. There is no reason to get so darn personal about it.
I'm all for balance first, and foremost. But i do root for terran dominion over other races.I don't see the need to boost MMM or siege tanks signficantly. I do see the need of terrans boosting other weaker units. I already went over the cost effectiveness
of 6 marines vs 1 thor.. that 6 marines are incredibly more cost efficient than a thor and more mobile to add. There fore the thor needs a boost in their attributes ASAP.
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On November 06 2012 08:44 vNmMasterT wrote:
Blizzard's approach to balance makes no sense:
Ghosts counter zergs tier 3 too well (mostly based on games of ONE player) -> snipe is nerfed to uselessness
HTs counter terran tier 3 too well -> terrans l2p
Infestors counter everything too well -> terrans l2p
Terrans struggling vs zerg after queen patch -> “wait and see” for months; cancel the proposed raven buff + creep nerf after MVP wins vs some foreign zergs
Zergs failing to deal with BFHs at one MLG -> instant blue flame nerf.
... and many many more such examples can be found throughout the lifecyle of WOL. It seems like terran players are always forced to adapt to the metagame and come up with new solutions/strategies while zergs and protoss just rely on Blizzard's helping hand. All the signs are here that Terrans are struggling badly: nonexistent foreign pro terrans, disappearance of terrans on ladder, etc. I just dont get why Blizzard keeps pointing out the ~50% win rate crap when the system is designed to achieve that regardless of balance. Either David Kim has a secret agenda against terran or he is just completely utterly incompetent.
Terran haters keep pointing out GomTvT but the fact is the format of the tournament favors terran much better than the regular ladder scenario or open bracket format. Players have all the time to study their opponents and prepare builds; this is good for Terrans becuase they rely on dealing early aggression and gaining/accumulating early advantages. But it has now got to the point where even Korean Terrans are getting owned left and right and it is just plain depressing to play Terran at this point.
quoted for the truth my brother
User was warned for this post
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On November 06 2012 09:42 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 11:37 geokilla wrote:On November 05 2012 09:51 RavenLoud wrote:
Seems to me that the infestor/BL problem can be solved if you just increase the supply of BL to 6 and perhaps the infestor to 3 supply.
Or buff the raven, I like that better. But how would that fare against Protoss? Not too well I think... I think the best thing to do is to nerf Fungal growth by reducing movement and not freezing them, and Infested Terrans. Why is it that they do more damage than non-stimmed Marines?! Yeah, changes like that are unlikely though, at least in WoL. The supply thing is the simplest one that has the least unintended consequences imo. Guys what do you think about these suggestions: Brood Lord: -Increase supply to 6 (4 atm) To compensate: -Increase HP to 250-275 -Increase damage to 25 per broodling launch. -Increase cost by 25/25 Infestor: Fungal growth no longer roots air units: only applies 50% slow. (Still roots ground units.) This makes void rays, mutas, ravens, drops and vikings more viable. [optional] -increase supply to 3 -To compensate: increase hp to 110.
not bad.
*I agree with increasing supply to 6.
* fungal growth should either have higher energy. or infestors should have lower maximum energy. Also, i agree with fungals no longer rooting air units.
i would increase mineral cost to 175.
HP should stay the same at 200
damage should stay the same at 20
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On November 06 2012 15:37 SeAK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 08:44 vNmMasterT wrote:
Blizzard's approach to balance makes no sense:
Ghosts counter zergs tier 3 too well (mostly based on games of ONE player) -> snipe is nerfed to uselessness
HTs counter terran tier 3 too well -> terrans l2p
Infestors counter everything too well -> terrans l2p
Terrans struggling vs zerg after queen patch -> “wait and see” for months; cancel the proposed raven buff + creep nerf after MVP wins vs some foreign zergs
Zergs failing to deal with BFHs at one MLG -> instant blue flame nerf.
... and many many more such examples can be found throughout the lifecyle of WOL. It seems like terran players are always forced to adapt to the metagame and come up with new solutions/strategies while zergs and protoss just rely on Blizzard's helping hand. All the signs are here that Terrans are struggling badly: nonexistent foreign pro terrans, disappearance of terrans on ladder, etc. I just dont get why Blizzard keeps pointing out the ~50% win rate crap when the system is designed to achieve that regardless of balance. Either David Kim has a secret agenda against terran or he is just completely utterly incompetent.
Terran haters keep pointing out GomTvT but the fact is the format of the tournament favors terran much better than the regular ladder scenario or open bracket format. Players have all the time to study their opponents and prepare builds; this is good for Terrans becuase they rely on dealing early aggression and gaining/accumulating early advantages. But it has now got to the point where even Korean Terrans are getting owned left and right and it is just plain depressing to play Terran at this point.
quoted for the truth my brother
it makes my head hurt that they think mass ghosts with snipe was too good and nerfed it into oblivion but do absolutely nothing and refuse to do anything about 40 infestors rolling over any kind of composition terran can make
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David I(imbecile) Kim, go fucking kill yourself.
As terrans, we don't want buff or care keeping nerfing us anymore, all we want is seeing you put a 9 inch butterknife slowly in your butthole then twist it, did I mention slowly? That's all we want.
David. Just do it. Please
Sincerely
A terran
User was temp banned for this post.
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The banshee is a perfectly fine air unit. Have you seen Voidrays? No you haven't because no one actually builds them.
The problem is fungal growth hard counters all air tech pretty much. And ensures that air units cannot retreat from either continued fungals or infested marines.
Remove the ability for fungal to stop movement and you have a balanced spell. The spell shouldn't slow down units either I don't see how that would solve the problem.
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On November 06 2012 08:06 Asymptote1 wrote:
[All you did was prove my point, the fact is that yes, zealots and stalker are a-moved. Its just that, they can ONLY BE A-MOVED, there is absolutely no skill ceiling to those units. Look at PvT, stalkers are irrelevant right from the get go because they just die to any amount of bio (even pre stim if they have marauders or if they corner the protoss army). And Zealots are even worse, at least stalkers can blink a bit (not that it matters in PvT really), but zealots have NO ability past their basic function of being A-moved. The reason zerglings work as a meele unit is because they are fast enough to be microed, zealots are not. Although zealots did have a baseline movement speed upgrade in Broodwar which I think was much better.
Also if you just gonna throw this out there, if you get caught by FF while stutter stepping bio, then YOU messed up. The range of FF is so 6, compared to the range of Bio (5-6) and the sentries are always at the back of the protoss army because they are the slowest unit, which means if you SOMEHOW get caught by FF when trying to stutter step that means you got lazy and tried to go in much closer to the protoss army then you needed to.
Stalkers can focus fire marauders in TvP and also injured one can be pulled back in smaller engagements. With zealots, only when there are less than 5 units it seems that most people bother to micro. But then again, with more units it is maybe better to move all your army as pulling zealots back might stop the ones behind them and create an indian line. By the way, zealot legs/charge improves zlot speed in sc2 as well making zealot a lot faster than marine or marauder.
2.25 vs 2.75
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How can they ever nerf infestors, I don't know, because Z definitely needs viable AOE vs T midgame.
Maybe if they can revert the game back to mutas+bane.
Swarm host doesn't seem to solve anything, since it can do nothing to combat marine tank by itself. This game is a mess, and I can't believe they came into HOTS after 2y with no real ideas, and scrapped any direction they had initially.
Now, the latest posts are: "no major balance changes for 1month, since we can't figure out what we did."
Honestly, HOTS is not looking promising, and who knows if it will even sell if it doesn't make the holiday window.
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The problem with infestors as many have said is that they are good against every unit in every situation. What i believe as a noob myself is the best choise to deal with them is to remove infested terran spell and buff the hydra in order to make zerg players use something other than infestors. Plus increase the micro requirement of fungal or just make it a slow decrease damage and increase radius or something like that.
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On November 06 2012 09:42 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 11:37 geokilla wrote:On November 05 2012 09:51 RavenLoud wrote:
Seems to me that the infestor/BL problem can be solved if you just increase the supply of BL to 6 and perhaps the infestor to 3 supply.
Or buff the raven, I like that better. But how would that fare against Protoss? Not too well I think... I think the best thing to do is to nerf Fungal growth by reducing movement and not freezing them, and Infested Terrans. Why is it that they do more damage than non-stimmed Marines?! Yeah, changes like that are unlikely though, at least in WoL. The supply thing is the simplest one that has the least unintended consequences imo. Guys what do you think about these suggestions: Brood Lord: -Increase supply to 6 (4 atm) To compensate: -Increase HP to 250-275 -Increase damage to 25 per broodling launch. -Increase cost by 25/25 Infestor: Fungal growth no longer roots air units: only applies 50% slow. (Still roots ground units.) This makes void rays, mutas, ravens, drops and vikings more viable. [optional] -increase supply to 3 -To compensate: increase hp to 110.
Also infested Terran should cost more energies and/or less life time cuz those assholes just have way too high dps and live for so long. They counter air units even better than fungal.
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People who are advocates of infestor nerfs, and in particular root->slow, how does that make a difference?
Zerg will still make 15-30 infestors.
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On November 06 2012 16:47 architecture wrote:
People who are advocates of infestor nerfs, and in particular root->slow, how does that make a difference?
Zerg will still make 15-30 infestors.
it will surely make air units more viable against zerg death army late game. ex. void rays and ravens. Also preventing fungals over and over on the units that got fungaled.
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There is no way an air based late game is not going to be incredibly stale. Starcraft has always been about the core units, the entire overreliance on broodlord is something that needs to be addressed.
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Balance aside, all anti-micro things need to be removed or made too cost inefficient to use for the game to be fun and punish mistakes of all races more equally. This means remove fungal, force field, concussive shell, vortex (although you could argue vortex is too expensive).
ITs are interesting. Each infestor is basically a barracks building marines. Zerg on 2 bases popping 6 infestors is like getting 18 free marines right off the bat, while having free supply-less marine production from 6 barracks (without addons, or 3 with reactors). This is more than one Terran base worth of production. Balanced? Energy cost should be increased, or preferably ITs should be weakened (since Zerg is supposed to have many units).
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On November 06 2012 17:07 architecture wrote:
There is no way an air based late game is not going to be incredibly stale. Starcraft has always been about the core units, the entire overreliance on broodlord is something that needs to be addressed.
Z and P don't really have reliable core units. Gateway units are mere meat shield most of the time, and roaches don't shoot air.
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Right, and this is exactly the entire problem with the game. I summed it up earlier:
In BW tech units support core units and let core units be more effective in more scenarios.
In SC2 core units support tech units (for non-T races).
SC2's model is insanely stupid. The fundamental interaction that needs to be worked out is for the core units, and then you start layering on the unique dimensions that tech units bring to the basic interactions.
The first thing they should have aimed to do in the 2 years that they've had, is to figure out how to fundamentally improve the game. You will never fix this by just sticking on bandages.
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I want to point out that they almost completed gutted the fundamental gameplay going from War3 to TFT.
The way heroes gained levels (global experience), the way armor/damage worked (how units interacted), item shops. It was a completely different game, because they recognized the fundamental flaws with the original game.
It seems so far that they are unwilling to address the fundamental flaws with SC2. That should have been the first thing, not the new units.
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Hmm I think 50% slow for fungal is too weak. I believe something like 90% is better because the main problem is root. Then they can adjust accordingly. If your units arent rooted, then it hard to chain fungal them and with only a 50% speed reduction, marine can still be fairly fast with stim. They will just stim up and run in and kill infestors. 50% speed reduction is too much but someone need to do a test to confirm though
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On November 06 2012 15:32 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 09:42 Kyadytim wrote:On November 06 2012 09:20 chatuka wrote:On November 06 2012 09:05 Resistentialism wrote:A banshee should upholds the meaning of its name. This fast flying unit should be one of the fastest units of the game period.
There is logical reason to explain why the hellion and the speedling is faster than a flying unit. how is a ferrari faster than an airplane or even a helicopter? Because it's a video game and a wizard did it. You must REALLY have not thought this through, because you're giving me lore argument instead of a game balance argument. Try thinking it through, right now. so it's okay for you to have a banshee as fast as a marine. The game needs to be somewhat realistic to be playable. That is the irony of entertainment. We have to be in suspended belief. If it's okay for you to have banshees that are slower than ground forces god bless you. It's not okay on my end. I leave it at that. You're right, the lore needs to be more believable for the game to be playable. I mean, how do Medivacs heal all bio units and repair Marine's armor without even coming into contact with them? They should have to land and sit there while Marines file on board on at a time to be healed and repaired, and that should take a while. Or perhaps you'd like to explain to me how an electromagnetic pulse disrupts Protoss psionic energy? And while you're at it, you might also want to explore how Dark Templar can no longer form into Dark Archons, where Scourge and Defilers disappeared to, and why Hellions can outrun Mutalisks. It makes no sense, right? Clearly, Hellions need their speed nerfed so they don't outrun flying units. *That is quite an unbelievable thing blizzard did with medivacs i agree. BUt their explanation, blizzard that is, that high tech lazers from the sky can heel wounds and sultures to intended targets. * EMPs disrupting psionic energy, at that is somewhat believable. i guess in the year 2522, humans will able to develop emps that can somehow disupt psionic energy. * I think hellions are ridiciously too fast as well. that is my opinion. As for dark templars being able to morph into archons, i don't get that part of the story either. You aren't exactly rebutting my point. I never made this about lore. I just said the story has to be somewhat believable. I don't think that have flying units that move slower than ground units, lets say marines, is believable at all. Besides being argumentative, i find it quite funny you needing to authorize what is lore and what it isn't. I'm just talking simple human earth-like physics. just using my imagination, i still can't IMAGINE how a banshee is moving as slow as a marine. It doesn't make sense in my imagination. other wild concoctions blizzard created can be somewhat imagined in my mind.. Hence, people need to be in suspended disbelief. movies,videogames and novels are about this idea that fantasy needs to be somewhat believable. That that post modern world can have wild machinations, but needs to be rooted in some kind of futuristic technology that could be potentially available. The story also needs to be rooted in contextual history or culture. medieval fighting games would make no sense with Machine guns. As futuristic war games would not make sense with bronze age swords and daggers. The main thrust of my argument was how to balance the terran units more effectively against zergs. I kind of suggested that banshees get a speed boost to buff the weak unit. And, I kind of got carried away with the absurdity of why banshees are slower than ground units. Show nested quote +You talk about realism in a game where 2 of the 3 races are completely invented.
Realism went out the window a long time ago. So it's okay if suspended belief was completely thrown out the window. That spider-man could fly without any explanation. Or that superheroes are immortal. I don't think you are really arguing but supporting my point. I said that Starcraft is a post modern fantasy war game. Just like how people love to get caught up in comics and cartoons. At least on earth. gravity, and physics have to make a little sense. That is all i am asking for. If you think different, that's great. You aren't going to change my opinion about this subject no matter how hard you try. Show nested quote +Should I go on, or have is it clear to you yet that no one is buying your list of Terran buffs as needing to be done on a lore basis when you're not looking at needed Terran nerfs or changing the other races? Who are you speaking for exactly? at the moment Zerg is a pretty strong race. Protoss has been buffed also. Though, the void ray, photon cannons, and phoenix need to become a more viable part of the game. As for whether people care, it is up to blizzard to read the thread and see what adjustment is viable to THEIR game SC2. I am just trying to help blizzard make a better game. There is no reason to get so darn personal about it. I'm all for balance first, and foremost. But i do root for terran dominion over other races.I don't see the need to boost MMM or siege tanks signficantly. I do see the need of terrans boosting other weaker units. I already went over the cost effectiveness of 6 marines vs 1 thor.. that 6 marines are incredibly more cost efficient than a thor and more mobile to add. There fore the thor needs a boost in their attributes ASAP.
you really should not be discussing about realism in SC2 at all, this is a balance discussion thread and 'realism" certainly is not going to help blizzard to make a better game, there are lots more area to be concerned.
how realism do you really want? how about adding refuel time for flying units that would cost extra gas? or stamina for normal ground army which has to be paid by minerals? non-pin point accuracy fire, Moral factor etc
As for the 6 marines vs thor comment, try breaking a heavy siege lines with pure marines or marines + thors. Marines with thors will come out much easier and more ahead.
you can't just make direct comparison with one unit against another, each unit has its own ideal situation to be more efficient.
they serve different roles completely
as for my suggestion for fungal,
I think a 90% slow in movement speed over 4 seconds and decrease the rate by 20% per second would be good.
i.e. 90% first second, 70% second, 50% third and 30% forth.
This way the army can still close in for the flank and zerg will have to use more fungal to hold the army in place.
It also won't break muta style in ZvZ of cause.
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EPT
