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On November 06 2012 08:26 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 08:13 Gamegene wrote:
IT's have 2 more base damage than marines, both without upgrades.
Each Infestor can launch 8 IT's. If you have 20 infestors with full energy, you have 160 infested Terrans which don't cost supply. So if you have 40 supply, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans.
And as we saw in MLG, there's no downside to making more than 20 infestors.
This is on top of their other abilities.
Corrupter Broodlord Infestor is just so efficient for their supply, there is no counter argument. Unlike other units, there's NO downside to making to making too many broodlords or infestors since you don't need buffers like zerglings which cost supply when you have spinecrawlers which cost none and are a lot more efficient. if you decrease the energy of the infestor, increase its build time, and reduce the base damage of ITerrans, that would solve lots of issues with the zerg being overpowered. Decrease the energy to 100 on infestors and increase the build time to 100 seconds. you still might have 20 infestors on the field. But, it would take a much longer time to get those 20 infestors. Plus the infestors could only launch 4 ITs. So 20 infestors would only be able to launch 80 IT with a reduced base damage of 6. As well buffing weak terran units would serve as a strong answer to zerg's deliciously powered army. I already went through what i proposed to how i was going to strengthen the terran army vs the zerg. 1. buff the thor (HP, AP, splash damage) 2. increase the speed of the banshee to 4 3. Increase the AP of reapers to 8, increase build time if reapers are getting cheezy. 4. increase the AP of hellion by 1. i love their mobility. 5. increase the speed of ravens to about 3, increase min cost to 150, increase HP to 150. decrease gas to 150-175, HSM energy to 100.
or just have infestors be 3 supply instead of fucking with it majorly
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You can't up the banshe cause of TVT.
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Banshees have their place as cloaked Infestor killers in TvZ, the Thor and the Hellion are strong enough without buffs. Reapers just don't have any place outside of early game harassment.
Ravens are the one unit that really need the buff. They're a slow, awkward and mana starved unit that takes a lot of time, money and infrastructure to introduce.
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Blizzard's approach to balance makes no sense:
Ghosts counter zergs tier 3 too well (mostly based on games of ONE player) -> snipe is nerfed to uselessness
HTs counter terran tier 3 too well -> terrans l2p
Infestors counter everything too well -> terrans l2p
Terrans struggling vs zerg after queen patch -> “wait and see” for months; cancel the proposed raven buff + creep nerf after MVP wins vs some foreign zergs
Zergs failing to deal with BFHs at one MLG -> instant blue flame nerf.
... and many many more such examples can be found throughout the lifecyle of WOL. It seems like terran players are always forced to adapt to the metagame and come up with new solutions/strategies while zergs and protoss just rely on Blizzard's helping hand. All the signs are here that Terrans are struggling badly: nonexistent foreign pro terrans, disappearance of terrans on ladder, etc. I just dont get why Blizzard keeps pointing out the ~50% win rate crap when the system is designed to achieve that regardless of balance. Either David Kim has a secret agenda against terran or he is just completely utterly incompetent.
Terran haters keep pointing out GomTvT but the fact is the format of the tournament favors terran much better than the regular ladder scenario or open bracket format. Players have all the time to study their opponents and prepare builds; this is good for Terrans becuase they rely on dealing early aggression and gaining/accumulating early advantages. But it has now got to the point where even Korean Terrans are getting owned left and right and it is just plain depressing to play Terran at this point.
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I personally think banshees are really dangerous, but the idea of buffing them brought up another idea if we want to make a very small change to the infestor.
How about if fungal growth could no longer reveal cloaked units, or maybe if it couldn't affect cloaked units at all? Any obvious problems with the idea?
VV Speedlings are faster than everything else in the game. I don't think you've thought this out if you want a cloaked flying raider to be as fast or faster than a speedling.
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On November 06 2012 08:31 Imzoo wrote:
You can't up the banshe cause of TVT.
If Banshees are getting overly cheesy, there should be a way to increase the waiting time for cloak ability. And missile turrets should have a slightly longer range. That might solve the issue with early cheesy builds with banshee harass. I didn't say to increase the AP of the banshee. I think their power is fine enough right now. Their speed is ridiculously slow. Banshees are slower than hellions and speedlings. it's absurd at this point.
Blizzard's approach to balance makes no sense:
Ghosts counter zergs tier 3 too well (mostly based on games of ONE player) -> snipe is nerfed to uselessness
HTs counter terran tier 3 too well -> terrans l2p
Infestors counter everything too well -> terrans l2p
Terrans struggling vs zerg after queen patch -> “wait and see” for months; cancel the proposed raven buff + creep nerf after MVP wins vs some foreign zergs
Zergs failing to deal with BFHs at one MLG -> instant blue flame nerf.
... and many many more such examples can be found throughout the lifecyle of WOL. It seems like terran players are always forced to adapt to the metagame and come up with new solutions/strategies while zergs and protoss just rely on Blizzard's helping hand. All the signs are here that Terrans are struggling badly: nonexistent foreign pro terrans, disappearance of terrans on ladder, etc. I just dont get why Blizzard keeps pointing out the ~50% win rate crap when the system is designed to achieve that regardless of balance. Either David Kim has a secret agenda against terran or he is just completely utterly incompetent.
Terran haters keep pointing out GomTvT but the fact is the format of the tournament favors terran much better than the regular ladder scenario or open bracket format. Players have all the time to study their opponents and prepare builds; this is good for Terrans becuase they rely on dealing early aggression and gaining/accumulating early advantages. But it has now got to the point where even Korean Terrans are getting owned left and right and it is just plain depressing to play Terran at this point.
you are on point with your opinions. Terrans have been getting nerfed while the zerg army remains strong. and the protoss army has been getting boosted as well. I'm all for balance. THe problem is the lack of diverse pieces in the Protoss and
Terran units. THe only usable units for Terran at this point is upgraded MMM with Siege tanks, maybe a ghost or raven here and there.
I personally think banshees are really dangerous, but the idea of buffing them brought up another idea if we want to make a very small change to the infestor.
How about if fungal growth could no longer reveal cloaked units, or maybe if it couldn't affect cloaked units at all? Any obvious problems with the idea?
Banshees can be very dangerous with cloaking. Maybe cloaking should be taken out or made to be much harder to attain. I think banshees has a harassment type unit could be very effective against protoss and zergs, that is if the speed was upgraded to 4.
VV Speedlings are faster than everything else in the game. I don't think you've thought this out if you want a cloaked flying raider to Last edit: 2012-11-06 08:57:14
be as fast or faster than a speedling.
A banshee should upholds the meaning of its name. This fast flying unit should be one of the fastest units of the game period. Is there a logical reason to explain why the hellion and the speedling is faster than a flying unit? How is a ferrari faster than an airplane or even a helicopter?
or just have infestors be 3 supply instead of fucking with it majorly
I kind of like my ideas better. Terran needs to buffed one way or the other. The more they try to strengthen weaker pieces of the terran army, the better it is for terran players and for starcraft in general.
Here was broodwar terran unit composition.
1. marine, medic, firebat (good vs zerglings), Siege tanks, science vessel(poisoning), vulture(Harass), battlecruiser, ghosts, goliath (anti air). valkrie was underpowered, cost innefficient. wraiths were great against air power like mutalisks, carriers.
Though the unit count was less, exciting pieces like the vulture, goliath, and science vessel added tremendously to game play.
Watch Fantasy with his vultures. many pieces of the terran army were important for BW. WHile in SC2, it seems like
the MMM with siege tanks seem to be most effective at this point. I don't see much raven, banshee, thor, reaper play. And those that use hellions seem to be very cost innefficient with the hellions.
THere clearly needs to be change. I think drastic. many people disagree, but the game does need to change. I guess Hots will change everything once again? I really think the same problems will arise. many great new units will be nerfed into oblivion
This time, only worse.
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Actually i think banshee is a really good unit that requires micro and is fun to play with. The problem is how ridiculous the other races are. Observers build so fast it's almost pointless to open cloakshee vs toss unless you are sure they are not getting a robo at all. Same deal with zerg and spores. Spores costs are negligible when you have like 50 drones at 8 min. More LOL is that they dont even need to build evo to get spores at HOTS.
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A banshee should upholds the meaning of its name. This fast flying unit should be one of the fastest units of the game period.
There is logical reason to explain why the hellion and the speedling is faster than a flying unit. how is a ferrari faster than an airplane or even a helicopter?
Because it's a video game and a wizard did it. You must REALLY have not thought this through, because you're giving me lore argument instead of a game balance argument. Try thinking it through, right now.
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On November 06 2012 09:05 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +A banshee should upholds the meaning of its name. This fast flying unit should be one of the fastest units of the game period.
There is logical reason to explain why the hellion and the speedling is faster than a flying unit. how is a ferrari faster than an airplane or even a helicopter? Because it's a video game and a wizard did it. You must REALLY have not thought this through, because you're giving me lore argument instead of a game balance argument. Try thinking it through, right now.
so it's okay for you to have a banshee as fast as a marine. The game needs to be somewhat realistic to be playable. That is the irony of entertainment. We have to be in suspended belief. If it's okay for you to have banshees that are slower than ground forces
god bless you. It's not okay on my end. I leave it at that.
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Why don't you work on "how do mutas fly in space?" and every other dumb lore stumper that's been making people groan for more than a decade now?
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On November 06 2012 09:22 Resistentialism wrote:
Why don't you work on "how do mutas fly in space?" and every other dumb lore stumper that's been making people groan for more than a decade now?
i am done arguing with you. So if you want to argue, you have to talk to the wind from now on. So,have fun with your
slow banshees 
If you want a serious answer to why mutalisks fly in space go ask kerrigan or Blizzard. I have no idea why they do either. they must have some breathing apparatus inside their lungs that can store breathing gas for a long period of time. If Mutalisks fly in an atmospheric world where they can adjust their lungs for that new planetary atmosphere, i guess the viability of the mutalisk's existence would be more believable. 
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On November 05 2012 11:37 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 09:51 RavenLoud wrote:
Seems to me that the infestor/BL problem can be solved if you just increase the supply of BL to 6 and perhaps the infestor to 3 supply.
Or buff the raven, I like that better. But how would that fare against Protoss? Not too well I think... I think the best thing to do is to nerf Fungal growth by reducing movement and not freezing them, and Infested Terrans. Why is it that they do more damage than non-stimmed Marines?!
Yeah, changes like that are unlikely though, at least in WoL.
The supply thing is the simplest one that has the least unintended consequences imo.
Guys what do you think about these suggestions:
Brood Lord:
-Increase supply to 6 (4 atm)
To compensate:
-Increase HP to 250-275
-Increase damage to 25 per broodling launch.
-Increase cost by 25/25
Infestor:
Fungal growth no longer roots air units: only applies 50% slow. (Still roots ground units.) This makes void rays, mutas, ravens, drops and vikings more viable.
[optional]
-increase supply to 3
-To compensate: increase hp to 110.
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On November 06 2012 09:20 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 09:05 Resistentialism wrote:A banshee should upholds the meaning of its name. This fast flying unit should be one of the fastest units of the game period.
There is logical reason to explain why the hellion and the speedling is faster than a flying unit. how is a ferrari faster than an airplane or even a helicopter? Because it's a video game and a wizard did it. You must REALLY have not thought this through, because you're giving me lore argument instead of a game balance argument. Try thinking it through, right now. so it's okay for you to have a banshee as fast as a marine. The game needs to be somewhat realistic to be playable. That is the irony of entertainment. We have to be in suspended belief. If it's okay for you to have banshees that are slower than ground forces god bless you. It's not okay on my end. I leave it at that.
You're right, the lore needs to be more believable for the game to be playable. I mean, how do Medivacs heal all bio units and repair Marine's armor without even coming into contact with them? They should have to land and sit there while Marines file on board on at a time to be healed and repaired, and that should take a while. Or perhaps you'd like to explain to me how an electromagnetic pulse disrupts Protoss psionic energy? And while you're at it, you might also want to explore how Dark Templar can no longer form into Dark Archons, where Scourge and Defilers disappeared to, and why Hellions can outrun Mutalisks. It makes no sense, right? Clearly, Hellions need their speed nerfed so they don't outrun flying units.
Should I go on, or have is it clear to you yet that no one is buying your list of Terran buffs as needing to be done on a lore basis when you're not looking at needed Terran nerfs or changing the other races?
On topic, I think that Infestors wouldn't be as much of a problem if their survivability wasn't so high. It's not just that they're a good unit, but they often last from when they're built until the end of the game, as once they've spent their energy or the other units are dead, they can retreat to the next wave of units while the enemy is still locked down by fungal growth or dealing with infested terrans.
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On November 06 2012 08:48 Resistentialism wrote:
I personally think banshees are really dangerous, but the idea of buffing them brought up another idea if we want to make a very small change to the infestor.
How about if fungal growth could no longer reveal cloaked units, or maybe if it couldn't affect cloaked units at all? Any obvious problems with the idea?
You'd need to make other spells also not affect cloaked units for consistency's sake. That would mean no storming banshees, no EMP revealing banshees/DTs, etc.
Fungal's root just needs to be ditched, plain and simple. It's much too strong and leads to the same "make 20 of these and win because they counter everything" problem that Blizzard had with ghosts, even though that problem was less pronounced and only affected one matchup.
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On November 06 2012 07:04 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 06:52 President Dead wrote:On November 06 2012 06:25 Prime Directive wrote:
Anyone else think infested terrans are the actual problem behind the infestor? In my opinion they make the unit appealing to mass. Fungal does have diminishing returns. No. The problem I'm seeing with everyone's rationale is that for every reason they may believe Infestor to be imbalanced there always seems to be myself or other people in whom can counter that same rationale that is perfectly reasonable to anyone who is sensible. Name one thing that you feel is "wrong" with the Infestor and for some crazy reason I can think of a way to counter your idea of why it's wrong. Go ahead. I for one believe the game is balanced enough, and the real work is to be done with how the game is played and increasing your creative possibilities. It's time now to turn this mush into muscles!!! No. The infestor is a support spellcaster. I have seen 37 of them at once in the most high level professional Korean game vs Terran (it would work vs Toss and Zerg too). The infestor stops everything from being viable. I can't see 37 high templar, 37 ravens, 37 ghosts(ghosts were nerfed when this was the case), 37 DEFILERS LOLOL (the BW "equivalent"), or any other spell caster basically being a standalone army. The infestor was designed to support the zerg army. By using 1-5, it should support the Zerg army. The problem is, is that is doesn't support the zerg army. It IS the zerg army. Even if the balance is 50/50 in every matchup, this is a problem.
Was it Bomber vs Freaky that the zerg countered Bomber's Mass BC+ravens with pure infestors? and when the zerg was down to one last mining base he was able to defend it with pure infestors and spines while harrassing with infestors at the same time. and in the end he won the game by infestors? if a pure spellcasters army can counter tier3+tier2 200/200 army and that's not imba, for god sake i shall quit starcrat 2 FOREVER
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On November 06 2012 10:02 gengka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 07:04 TimENT wrote:On November 06 2012 06:52 President Dead wrote:On November 06 2012 06:25 Prime Directive wrote:
Anyone else think infested terrans are the actual problem behind the infestor? In my opinion they make the unit appealing to mass. Fungal does have diminishing returns. No. The problem I'm seeing with everyone's rationale is that for every reason they may believe Infestor to be imbalanced there always seems to be myself or other people in whom can counter that same rationale that is perfectly reasonable to anyone who is sensible. Name one thing that you feel is "wrong" with the Infestor and for some crazy reason I can think of a way to counter your idea of why it's wrong. Go ahead. I for one believe the game is balanced enough, and the real work is to be done with how the game is played and increasing your creative possibilities. It's time now to turn this mush into muscles!!! No. The infestor is a support spellcaster. I have seen 37 of them at once in the most high level professional Korean game vs Terran (it would work vs Toss and Zerg too). The infestor stops everything from being viable. I can't see 37 high templar, 37 ravens, 37 ghosts(ghosts were nerfed when this was the case), 37 DEFILERS LOLOL (the BW "equivalent"), or any other spell caster basically being a standalone army. The infestor was designed to support the zerg army. By using 1-5, it should support the Zerg army. The problem is, is that is doesn't support the zerg army. It IS the zerg army. Even if the balance is 50/50 in every matchup, this is a problem. Was it Bomber vs Freaky that the zerg countered Bomber's Mass BC+ravens with pure infestors? and when the zerg was down to one last mining base he was able to defend it with pure infestors and spines while harrassing with infestors at the same time. and in the end he won the game by infestors? if a pure spellcasters army can counter tier3+tier2 200/200 army and that's not imba, for god sake i shall quit starcrat 2 FOREVER
Nah was MLG against Leenock. Bomber had a deja vu moment for sure.
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On November 06 2012 09:20 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 09:05 Resistentialism wrote:A banshee should upholds the meaning of its name. This fast flying unit should be one of the fastest units of the game period.
There is logical reason to explain why the hellion and the speedling is faster than a flying unit. how is a ferrari faster than an airplane or even a helicopter? Because it's a video game and a wizard did it. You must REALLY have not thought this through, because you're giving me lore argument instead of a game balance argument. Try thinking it through, right now. so it's okay for you to have a banshee as fast as a marine. The game needs to be somewhat realistic to be playable. That is the irony of entertainment. We have to be in suspended belief. If it's okay for you to have banshees that are slower than ground forces god bless you. It's not okay on my end. I leave it at that.
You talk about realism in a game where 2 of the 3 races are completely invented.
Realism went out the window a long time ago.
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On November 06 2012 10:17 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 10:02 gengka wrote:On November 06 2012 07:04 TimENT wrote:On November 06 2012 06:52 President Dead wrote:On November 06 2012 06:25 Prime Directive wrote:
Anyone else think infested terrans are the actual problem behind the infestor? In my opinion they make the unit appealing to mass. Fungal does have diminishing returns. No. The problem I'm seeing with everyone's rationale is that for every reason they may believe Infestor to be imbalanced there always seems to be myself or other people in whom can counter that same rationale that is perfectly reasonable to anyone who is sensible. Name one thing that you feel is "wrong" with the Infestor and for some crazy reason I can think of a way to counter your idea of why it's wrong. Go ahead. I for one believe the game is balanced enough, and the real work is to be done with how the game is played and increasing your creative possibilities. It's time now to turn this mush into muscles!!! No. The infestor is a support spellcaster. I have seen 37 of them at once in the most high level professional Korean game vs Terran (it would work vs Toss and Zerg too). The infestor stops everything from being viable. I can't see 37 high templar, 37 ravens, 37 ghosts(ghosts were nerfed when this was the case), 37 DEFILERS LOLOL (the BW "equivalent"), or any other spell caster basically being a standalone army. The infestor was designed to support the zerg army. By using 1-5, it should support the Zerg army. The problem is, is that is doesn't support the zerg army. It IS the zerg army. Even if the balance is 50/50 in every matchup, this is a problem. Was it Bomber vs Freaky that the zerg countered Bomber's Mass BC+ravens with pure infestors? and when the zerg was down to one last mining base he was able to defend it with pure infestors and spines while harrassing with infestors at the same time. and in the end he won the game by infestors? if a pure spellcasters army can counter tier3+tier2 200/200 army and that's not imba, for god sake i shall quit starcrat 2 FOREVER Nah was MLG against Leenock. Bomber had a deja vu moment for sure.
Nah it was Bomber vs Freaky in a team league actually.
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I'm pretty sure reverting all the zerg balance changes up-to the roach 4 range patch (not included) would change next to nothing to the balance. Infestors usefulness was "discovered", just like ghosts usefulness was discovered, a long time after release, and had basically nothing to do with patches (patches and buffs helped people to realize how good they are, but didn't made them good, they always were good).
Actually, the old lower damage but 8 second root and 9 range neural would certainly be even better than the current one.
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EPT
