EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 377
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Prime Directive
United States186 Posts
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2167 Posts
On November 06 2012 04:24 Zdrastochye wrote: I'd honestly be fine if the Sentry, Infestor, and Marauder got removed in HotS. Not that it'll happen, but it'd be pretty interesting to see what would come of it. Remove the sentry and you have nothing but 4Gates pvp again. Also, the sentry and the Infestor are much more vital than the marauder is. This idea won't work. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 06 2012 06:25 Prime Directive wrote: Anyone else think infested terrans are the actual problem behind the infestor? In my opinion they make the unit appealing to mass. Fungal does have diminishing returns. pretty much agree. Fungal is unforgiving, but not a huge issue on it's own. Mass Infestor is only viable due to mass ITs. | ||
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President Dead
97 Posts
On November 06 2012 06:25 Prime Directive wrote: Anyone else think infested terrans are the actual problem behind the infestor? In my opinion they make the unit appealing to mass. Fungal does have diminishing returns. No. The problem I'm seeing with everyone's rationale is that for every reason they may believe Infestor to be imbalanced there always seems to be myself or other people in whom can counter that same rationale that is perfectly reasonable to anyone who is sensible. Name one thing that you feel is "wrong" with the Infestor and for some crazy reason I can think of a way to counter your idea of why it's wrong. Go ahead. I for one believe the game is balanced enough, and the real work is to be done with how the game is played and increasing your creative possibilities. It's time now to turn this mush into muscles!!! | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On November 06 2012 06:52 President Dead wrote: No. The problem I'm seeing with everyone's rationale is that for every reason they may believe Infestor to be imbalanced there always seems to be myself or other people in whom can counter that same rationale that is perfectly reasonable to anyone who is sensible. Name one thing that you feel is "wrong" with the Infestor and for some crazy reason I can think of a way to counter your idea of why it's wrong. Go ahead. I for one believe the game is balanced enough, and the real work is to be done with how the game is played and increasing your creative possibilities. It's time now to turn this mush into muscles!!! No. The infestor is a support spellcaster. I have seen 37 of them at once in the most high level professional Korean game vs Terran (it would work vs Toss and Zerg too). The infestor stops everything from being viable. I can't see 37 high templar, 37 ravens, 37 ghosts(ghosts were nerfed when this was the case), 37 DEFILERS LOLOL (the BW "equivalent"), or any other spell caster basically being a standalone army. The infestor was designed to support the zerg army. By using 1-5, it should support the Zerg army. The problem is, is that is doesn't support the zerg army. It IS the zerg army. Even if the balance is 50/50 in every matchup, this is a problem. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On November 06 2012 06:29 SharkStarcraft wrote: Remove the sentry and you have nothing but 4Gates pvp again. Also, the sentry and the Infestor are much more vital than the marauder is. This idea won't work. Infestor is vital? I guess to stop mass marines... There were units that didn't have a clear counter in BW, and some compositions like mass siege tanks was just unbeatable with one single standard army. The the protoss/zerg would just throw units at them until one of the two died. Zerg in SC2 has larva enough to go back being the swarm race, instead of the turtle into 30 infestors and BLs. There are so many problems with the infestor you could make a list and always forget something lol. It is actually hurting SC2 as an e-sport, i'm sure of it. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
This reminds me fo wc3 before TFT though; where due to the good damage on casters, and that upgrading them was much cheaper than upgrading the combat units, alot of armies would be heavily made of mass casters, since they had a decent attack + whatever you can get out of their spells. I agree ITs are perhaps the larger part of the problem; relaly both are problems, and together they're even worse than alone (since funbal can negate the ITs slow move speed disadvantage). and ITs low mobility doens't matter much if the enemy can't retreat well (like your'e attacking an expansion/main, well, even if their army can run, they still lose the base) Ya know what'd really help vs ITs? dispel magic! an aoe spell that hurts summoned units  On a more basic point: the balancing of summoned units in a game is often quite tricky; remember the greater daemons of wc1? now that was OP. even wc3 had problems at time with the power of necromancers raise dead spam; that was mitigated some with tfts increased number of anti-caster units and more aoe dispel sources. | ||
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President Dead
97 Posts
The quantity of a unit that can be made in a given game is not a case for Infestor imba. Saying a very non-specific "the infestor stops everything ..." is hardly worth the decency for a case of the imbalance of the Infestor as it white-washes the issue. Obviously this is an exaggeration as anyone who ever went mass Infestor would indeed have 100% win rate. Did you design the Infestor? How do you know what role it should be or shouldn't be? Why are you constricting a unit in a particular role and why should Zerg ever follow blindly what "is" a unit and how it should be used? Just because you say it's a support role doesn't mean it should be used solely as such. If you're case is that it's remarkably effective against anything, then no real evidence was given specifically about anything. On November 06 2012 07:12 zlefin wrote: I agree ITs are perhaps the larger part of the problem; relaly both are problems, and together they're even worse than alone . Are you able to counter standard marines? Are you able to micro units? Do you have Parkinson's that deteriorates your motor functioning in splitting marines in case of fungals? You know that those two things are what you can do to minimize Infestors usefulness, right? What's going on? What am I missing here? | ||
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President Dead
97 Posts
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JackReacher
United States197 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 06 2012 07:23 President Dead wrote: @timENT The quantity of a unit that can be made in a given game is not a case for Infestor imba. Saying a very non-specific "the infestor stops everything ..." is hardly worth the decency for a case of the imbalance of the Infestor as it white-washes the issue. Obviously this is an exaggeration as anyone who ever went mass Infestor would indeed have 100% win rate. Did you design the Infestor? How do you know what role it should be or shouldn't be? Why are you constricting a unit in a particular role and why should Zerg ever follow blindly what "is" a unit and how it should be used? Just because you say it's a support role doesn't mean it should be used solely as such. If you're case is that it's remarkably effective against anything, then no real evidence was given specifically about anything. Are you able to counter standard marines? Are you able to micro units? Do you have Parkinson's that deteriorates your motor functioning in splitting marines in case of fungals? You know that those two things are what you can do to minimize Infestors usefulness, right? What's going on? What am I missing here? I can't defend a 200/200 army plus another 50 supply of Marines, no. I can't be expected to win against a 250 supply Terran to begin with, and Brood Lords are a hell of a lot stronger than Marines. Also, Protoss can't really split effectively against Infestor/BL since the point is that we have nothing with long enough range to trade with the BLs. | ||
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chatuka
1351 Posts
I think Infestors need be worth more than 100 minerals first of all. If thors are 300 Min 200 G and infestors are more devastating than the thor. What does that say about the balance of the game? - Neural parasite - infested terrans - Burrow moving - Fungal growth. Energy should be reduced from 200 to like 100. Buffs in terran units like banshees that are faster, or hellions that do more damage would easily provide stronger resistance to the Zerg deathball army. Thors, that don't die, and can attack air unit mercilessly against corrupors and broodlords, plus providing splash damage to ground units like tanks can do. reapers that can harass zerg base expansions in late game, and actually be effective with higher AP. Perhaps the science vessel from BW needs to be brought back. poisoning the Broodlords and infestors would also serve as a counterweight against a deep and devastating zerg army. Also, increase the build time from 50 to 100 seconds, to prevent so many Infestors on the field at once. They could also increase the build time of the brood lord from 34 seconds to 60 seconds. that would also decrease the amount of broodlord an opponent can utilize at once. | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
It really show when it gets to the late game and games get scrappy with few mining bases etc. Infestors trade "free" units with real units and its very frustrating to see how powerful they are. Btw, what is blizzards most recent comment on infestors? | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On November 06 2012 06:17 SlixSC wrote: I agree, but this isn't a balance problem in my opinion. Pre- stim, combat shields, medivac, gateway units are obviously superior to bio armies, this is why Terran needs bunkers in the early game. But once you have upgrades and medivacs the roles are reversed and protoss actually needs splash damage to combat this army. I don't see a problem with that to be honest. Especially since the timings work out quite nicely for both races. Why are people even discussing TvP in the first place. The matchup seems very balanced statistically and I personally enjoy playing TvP more than any other matchup, because I feel both races are very balanced. ( some might say Protoss is stronger in the lategame and while I agree that this is true to some extent, I personally play a mass ghost, planetary fortress style in the super lategame which very much so makes up for insta-warp in and splash damage in general - but is very hard to play). I am not considering it to be a balance problem. On open field, the same toss army vs stimmed bio, will be demolished if the terran has the proper micro. I also play mass ghost planetary fortress bc marauder some viking as well, but is indeed very hard to play vs tier 3 toss where one misstep means your army evaporates. | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
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Asymptote1
121 Posts
On November 06 2012 06:07 sieksdekciw wrote: Sorry, I could not hear you guys over the stats which show that GM and Masters consistently for the past two/three seasons: about 38-40% toss in master and gm level about 42-40% zerg in master and gm level about 20% terran in master and gm level Besides, if we fight gateway armies pre-stim vs bio armies, I tell you that there should be no protoss in the world that would lose that engagement. And gateway armies are far easier to control, zealots are basically a moved, so are stalkers, and sentries cast forcefields behind the terran army. No stutter step, no avoiding forcefields. Everybody who has seen an sentry immortal bust knows that unless the terran should have like 10 scv's pulled, and 3/4 bunkers prepared, and will still lose some of the time. Hell, even after medivacs are out, if you get forcefielded and you don't pick up, you will die. So, I guess there should be no debate whether bio or gateway army is stronger as it is obvious that gateway army is far stronger. All you did was prove my point, the fact is that yes, zealots and stalker are a-moved. Its just that, they can ONLY BE A-MOVED, there is absolutely no skill ceiling to those units. Look at PvT, stalkers are irrelevant right from the get go because they just die to any amount of bio (even pre stim if they have marauders or if they corner the protoss army). And Zealots are even worse, at least stalkers can blink a bit (not that it matters in PvT really), but zealots have NO ability past their basic function of being A-moved. The reason zerglings work as a meele unit is because they are fast enough to be microed, zealots are not. Although zealots did have a baseline movement speed upgrade in Broodwar which I think was much better. Also if you just gonna throw this out there, if you get caught by FF while stutter stepping bio, then YOU messed up. The range of FF is so 6, compared to the range of Bio (5-6) and the sentries are always at the back of the protoss army because they are the slowest unit, which means if you SOMEHOW get caught by FF when trying to stutter step that means you got lazy and tried to go in much closer to the protoss army then you needed to. | ||
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Asymptote1
121 Posts
That's why terran needs to be stimmed or have combat shields to strengthen their bio army. Protoss Sentries, Stalkers, immortals, and zealots would definitely over run M-M-M combination. That is if their unit count were similar, without upgrades as well. You think so? You should play with a friend in a custom game or something and try to beat a MMM with gateway units and immortals and see how one sided the battle is as Terran reigns supreme. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
Each Infestor can launch 8 IT's. If you have 20 infestors with full energy, you have 160 infested Terrans which don't cost supply. So if you have 40 supply, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans. And as we saw in MLG, there's no downside to making more than 20 infestors. This is on top of their other abilities. Corrupter Broodlord Infestor is just so efficient for their supply, there is no counter argument. Unlike other units, there's NO downside to making to making too many broodlords or infestors since you don't need buffers like zerglings which cost supply when you have spinecrawlers which cost none and are a lot more efficient. | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On November 06 2012 07:23 President Dead wrote: The quantity of a unit that can be made in a given game is not a case for Infestor imba. Saying a very non-specific "the infestor stops everything ..." is hardly worth the decency for a case of the imbalance of the Infestor as it white-washes the issue. Obviously this is an exaggeration as anyone who ever went mass Infestor would indeed have 100% win rate. Did you design the Infestor? How do you know what role it should be or shouldn't be? Why are you constricting a unit in a particular role and why should Zerg ever follow blindly what "is" a unit and how it should be used? Just because you say it's a support role doesn't mean it should be used solely as such. If you're case is that it's remarkably effective against anything, then no real evidence was given specifically about anything. Lol yeah...dude, obvious troll is obvious | ||
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chatuka
1351 Posts
On November 06 2012 08:13 Gamegene wrote: IT's have 2 more base damage than marines, both without upgrades. Each Infestor can launch 8 IT's. If you have 20 infestors with full energy, you have 160 infested Terrans which don't cost supply. So if you have 40 supply, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans. And as we saw in MLG, there's no downside to making more than 20 infestors. This is on top of their other abilities. Corrupter Broodlord Infestor is just so efficient for their supply, there is no counter argument. Unlike other units, there's NO downside to making to making too many broodlords or infestors since you don't need buffers like zerglings which cost supply when you have spinecrawlers which cost none and are a lot more efficient. if you decrease the energy of the infestor, increase its build time, and reduce the base damage of ITerrans, that would solve lots of issues with the zerg being overpowered. Decrease the energy to 100 on infestors and increase the build time to 100 seconds. you still might have 20 infestors on the field. But, it would take a much longer time to get those 20 infestors. Plus one infestor could only launch 4 ITs with 100 energy. So 20 infestors would only be able to launch 80 IT with a reduced base damage of 6. fungal growth energy should be 100, not 75 As well buffing weak terran units would serve as a strong answer to zerg's deliciously powered army. I already went through what i proposed to how i was going to strengthen the terran army vs the zerg. 1. buff the thor (HP, AP, splash damage) 2. increase the speed of the banshee to 4 3. Increase the AP of reapers to 8, increase build time if reapers are getting cheezy. 4. increase the AP of hellion by 1. i love their mobility. 5. increase the speed of ravens to about 3, increase min cost to 150, increase HP to 150. decrease gas to 150-175, HSM energy to 100. 6. the Viking.. increase speed to 3. increase HP to 140-150. Increase mineral cost to 175. Air damage or AP should be around 12. | ||
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