EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 389
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 01 2012 01:40 Big J wrote: Those are the (set) winrates in Code S for the last three seasons (since queen patch). GSL 2012, Season 3: ZvP: 45.8%, ZvT: 51.2%, TvP: 47.7% GSL 2012, Season 4: ZvP: 50.8%, ZvT: 53%, TvP: 47.8% GSL 2012, Season 5 (unfinished): ZvP: 58.5%, ZvT: 61.3%, TvP: 57% Sorry, those are the Code S+A winrates... Ty, aksfjh for pointing that out | ||
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lemonbone
Hong Kong154 Posts
- Zerg creep tumors + watch tower + overlord + thousand of lings running around= almost as good as map hack. - Protoss mothership is boring. solution: - remove watch tower, each creep tumors spawn cost mineral after queen dropped it on the ground. - tell other race to play better.  - bring back arbiter from broodwar. XD - better map design. Instead of using the word balancing, we should say how to make starcraft 2 more entertaining to watch. Like altering the unit path finding which allow more micro come into play. And this will enhance visibility on lower quality stream. | ||
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lemonbone
Hong Kong154 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:25 Big J wrote: Sorry, those are the Code S+A winrates... Ty, aksfjh for pointing that out Wow, those Zerg win rates over 60%... This is a pretty clear sign of a problem | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On December 02 2012 01:59 lemonbone wrote: problem: - Zerg creep tumors + watch tower + overlord + thousand of lings running around= almost as good as map hack. - Protoss mothership is boring. solution: - remove watch tower, each creep tumors spawn cost mineral after queen dropped it on the ground. - tell other race to play better. - bring back arbiter from broodwar. XD - better map design. Instead of using the word balancing, we should say how to make starcraft 2 more entertaining to watch. Like altering the unit path finding which allow more micro come into play. And this will enhance visibility on lower quality stream. I was always confused how Zergs said they had the worst scouting in the game. I would make the argument that at all points in the game, a decent Zerg player has the best scouting by far of the races. Even in beginning, if you're a decent Zerg player who drone scouts at the right time, counts gas, looks/understands build timings, you get all the information you need. And then even if that's not enough, you can sack a bunch of overlords to have more information. Then later in the game, it's basically the whole map. | ||
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
On December 02 2012 06:13 zmansman17 wrote: I was always confused how Zergs said they had the worst scouting in the game. I would make the argument that at all points in the game, a decent Zerg player has the best scouting by far of the races. Even in beginning, if you're a decent Zerg player who drone scouts at the right time, counts gas, looks/understands build timings, you get all the information you need. And then even if that's not enough, you can sack a bunch of overlords to have more information. Then later in the game, it's basically the whole map. I think much of it is that overlords can be shot down pretty easily, and it's not too hard to put your tech in a place where you'll have time to react to the overlord scout. I do agree with you, but I think that is where they are coming from; to scout, they have to preform a sacrifice, and even that is not a solid guarantee. Though obviously other races don't have a guarantee either, but I suppose the Zerg's felt/feel like it was not even among the races, the amount of time/resources vs accuracy of scout. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On December 01 2012 01:40 Big J wrote: Those are the (set) winrates in Code S for the last three seasons (since queen patch). GSL 2012, Season 3: ZvP: 45.8%, ZvT: 51.2%, TvP: 47.7% GSL 2012, Season 4: ZvP: 50.8%, ZvT: 53%, TvP: 47.8% GSL 2012, Season 5 (unfinished): ZvP: 58.5%, ZvT: 61.3%, TvP: 57% The interesting thing is that you can see TvP winrates went up quite heavily, while ZvT winrates also shot up. So it's not as if Terrans all just suddenly started playing poorly. I mean, I'm pretty sure all the bad Terrans have been wiped from these statistics by now. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
To consider: Queens may be too strong against air. The reasoning: Because Zerglings are such a fantastic way of cleaning up failed pressure, Protoss and Terran are usually limited to all-ins, a few very heavy pressure builds, and some air play. The air play, though, has been going out of style, especially in PvZ. This makes the early game disappointingly empty of any interaction, as neither race has a way to do anything without risking huge losses. Air-based openers allow Protoss to put on pressure without risking their units to Zergling cleanup, and as such add interest to that portion of the game. The main enemy of this PvZ air harassment is the Queen, on account of the Spore Crawler's immobility. In order to bring this style of play back into the limelight, a nerf to the Queen's anti-air may be of use. Alternatively, a Void Ray buff could have the same effect without altering any other 1v1 matchups (when's the last time you've seen a Void Ray built in a tournament?) Possible solutions: 1 damage nerf to Queen, 1 range nerf (possibly with the inclusion of a range upgrade at Hatchery tech), health nerf, 1 armor buff to Void Ray. Possible repercussions: Banshees are already a very capable harassment unit, even with Queens in their current state. This could make Hellion/Banshee openers too strong. Perhaps this would need to accompany a change to reduce the Banshee's damage against non-light, although that could cripple current mech builds. Worth keeping in mind. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 02 2012 06:13 zmansman17 wrote: I was always confused how Zergs said they had the worst scouting in the game. I would make the argument that at all points in the game, a decent Zerg player has the best scouting by far of the races. Even in beginning, if you're a decent Zerg player who drone scouts at the right time, counts gas, looks/understands build timings, you get all the information you need. And then even if that's not enough, you can sack a bunch of overlords to have more information. Then later in the game, it's basically the whole map. Although I hear what you're saying, this sort of argument can only work at the lower levels of the playerbase and also will only make sense at that level since at the higher level, things like worker scouts and overlord scouts are quite easily denied. Before the overlord speed buff, Zergs really did have the worst scouting in the game. Terrans have scans. Its undeniable, its available all the time and its everywhere. Protoss have observers (nothing needs to be said). The Zerg options are sacing lings, sacing overlords and making changelings everywhere. All 3 of those options are substantially more difficult to pull off and actually get to see anything than the P or T options. The part where you said you can just sac a bunch of overlords is also incorrect since its still easy to deny those and if you try to sac earlier ones, they're so important just to not fall behind in macro and losing them/becoming blocked REALLY hurts a Zerg. I have an easier time controlling and seeing the map as a Terran than as a Zerg tbh at high masters. On December 10 2012 02:02 Acritter wrote: This isn't so much a balance change as a design change, but here goes. To consider: Queens may be too strong against air. The reasoning: Because Zerglings are such a fantastic way of cleaning up failed pressure, Protoss and Terran are usually limited to all-ins, a few very heavy pressure builds, and some air play. The air play, though, has been going out of style, especially in PvZ. This makes the early game disappointingly empty of any interaction, as neither race has a way to do anything without risking huge losses. Air-based openers allow Protoss to put on pressure without risking their units to Zergling cleanup, and as such add interest to that portion of the game. The main enemy of this PvZ air harassment is the Queen, on account of the Spore Crawler's immobility. In order to bring this style of play back into the limelight, a nerf to the Queen's anti-air may be of use. Alternatively, a Void Ray buff could have the same effect without altering any other 1v1 matchups (when's the last time you've seen a Void Ray built in a tournament?) Possible solutions: 1 damage nerf to Queen, 1 range nerf (possibly with the inclusion of a range upgrade at Hatchery tech), health nerf, 1 armor buff to Void Ray. Possible repercussions: Banshees are already a very capable harassment unit, even with Queens in their current state. This could make Hellion/Banshee openers too strong. Perhaps this would need to accompany a change to reduce the Banshee's damage against non-light, although that could cripple current mech builds. Worth keeping in mind. If anything, Queens aren't strong enough against air since Zerg has to rely on them + immobile spores (re-rooting is not mobility since you can't fire while moving it). If Zergs didn't rely entirely on those 2 things for safety, a change to queens might be ok to suggest. However, because zerg was designed like this, any sort of weakening of queens completely destroys any possibilities of safe opening vs any race. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
On December 10 2012 03:37 sCCrooked wrote: Although I hear what you're saying, this sort of argument can only work at the lower levels of the playerbase and also will only make sense at that level since at the higher level, things like worker scouts and overlord scouts are quite easily denied. Before the overlord speed buff, Zergs really did have the worst scouting in the game. Terrans have scans. Its undeniable, its available all the time and its everywhere. Protoss have observers (nothing needs to be said). The Zerg options are sacing lings, sacing overlords and making changelings everywhere. All 3 of those options are substantially more difficult to pull off and actually get to see anything than the P or T options. The part where you said you can just sac a bunch of overlords is also incorrect since its still easy to deny those and if you try to sac earlier ones, they're so important just to not fall behind in macro and losing them/becoming blocked REALLY hurts a Zerg. I have an easier time controlling and seeing the map as a Terran than as a Zerg tbh at high masters. If anything, Queens aren't strong enough against air since Zerg has to rely on them + immobile spores (re-rooting is not mobility since you can't fire while moving it). If Zergs didn't rely entirely on those 2 things for safety, a change to queens might be ok to suggest. However, because zerg was designed like this, any sort of weakening of queens completely destroys any possibilities of safe opening vs any race. The buff might have been overkill. In PvZ no zerg should be surprised.Toss on the other hand either loses a probe or risks losing their whole force to a swarm of lings if they poke out. Obs area distinct tech path and come out later in the game. Earlier on between 5 range queens and lings, it requires a bit of luck and laziness on part of the zerg to effectively scout what they are committing to. That's why Stargate openings should have become the standard in the matchup before bliz nerfed them to death. The spore change meant that you couldnt commit lightly to voids and make a zerg work to keep his thirdbase or atleast have some sort of commitment to things besides drones before taking it. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 10 2012 03:51 Sabu113 wrote: The buff might have been overkill. In PvZ no zerg should be surprised.Toss on the other hand either loses a probe or risks losing their whole force to a swarm of lings if they poke out. Obs area distinct tech path and come out later in the game. Earlier on between 5 range queens and lings, it requires a bit of luck and laziness on part of the zerg to effectively scout what they are committing to. That's why Stargate openings should have become the standard in the matchup before bliz nerfed them to death. The spore change meant that you couldnt commit lightly to voids and make a zerg work to keep his thirdbase or atleast have some sort of commitment to things besides drones before taking it. Well the buff for queens only affected the ground attack. It had no effect whatsoever on stargate openings. The truth is that Z early game AA still sucks. I guess the developers figured Zergs would just go mutas every matchup and somehow be fine. Obs might be a distinct path, but in WoL (I know in HotS it changes) you also have to sac a worker to build an evo and then sac more workers to make the spores. Spores also come out later in the game but at a much greater cost to Z. Also its not possible to start sacing economy too early so Ps can get robo tech going off an FFE around 6-7 minutes around the same time Zs are just around able to afford an evo and spores (though because P goes robo, there's no need for spores since no SG). The timings just work out really well. What I don't like when I'm playing P is that I really have no map control unless I'm so far ahead I'm able to just charge into all Z's bases and start wrecking stuff. I feel isolated and unable to do anything at all other than blindly follow my build and trust in it. Of course this works just fine for me being P at a mid-masters level but at GM and pro levels I'm sure the problems become more pronounced as the Zergs are also more refined. Zerg and Protoss need to be flat-out redesigned from scratch. Protoss is designed around warpgate, forcefield, collossi and mothership+vortex's existence while Zerg is designed around the existence of fungals and ITs. Both of them are entirely relying on gimmicky tech or spells to survive and this is bad design. The race should be completely sufficient even vs itself. | ||
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
On December 10 2012 04:54 sCCrooked wrote: ...... Zerg and Protoss need to be flat-out redesigned from scratch. Protoss is designed around warpgate, forcefield, collossi and mothership+vortex's existence while Zerg is designed around the existence of fungals and ITs. Both of them are entirely relying on gimmicky tech or spells to survive and this is bad design. The race should be completely sufficient even vs itself. I don't think that's fair to say. I know that the game has developed a lot since release, but I mean. There were very successful playing styles before infestors/ITs became huge, or archon toilets became huge. I do agree that the problems seem to be less about stats and more about the "scaffolding," but I don't think it's fair to say entire races have been built upon single plays. Though I suppose warpgate is an exception; without it, Protoss is completely different. They put a lot of emphasis on it. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
Nerfing queens would mean that zerg has to take the hydralisk route early on and would just open up a bunch of new balance problems that doesn't address any of the core-issues with PvZ and TvZ | ||
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ilbh
Brazil1606 Posts
its needed to completely change the Protoss race. their units are too expensive and powerful, you need to stay in base until 200/200 to move out and you can't "remake" your army like T and Z can. it's retarded. you lost some units? you lost the game... this is plain boring. Z and T are zergish, but P is laggish lol make P a little more zergy and we have a better game. as for Terran, their defense sucks. P and Z can easily attack throught it. give more hit points or armor to supply deppots or structures. stim pack is too powerful and at the same time unforgiven. 2 stim packs and your entire army is red, almost dead. nerf it a little and make it possible to almost spam it without losing your units. maybe don't even nerf it. could even add an upgrade to medivacs so it could heal more than 1 unit at the same time. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12156 Posts
On January 13 2013 21:22 ilbh wrote: could even add an upgrade to medivacs so it could heal more than 1 unit at the same time. Yeah, no, you could definitely not do that. | ||
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ne0lith
537 Posts
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Orek
1665 Posts
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