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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 389

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Account252508
Profile Joined February 2012
3454 Posts
November 30 2012 17:36 GMT
#7761
--- Nuked ---
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
December 01 2012 01:24 GMT
#7762
Sorry, the 2nd line should read Code A.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 01 2012 12:25 GMT
#7763
On December 01 2012 01:40 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 01:27 monkybone wrote:
On December 01 2012 01:12 Assirra wrote:
On December 01 2012 00:20 monkybone wrote:
On November 30 2012 20:36 aksfjh wrote:
2012 Season 5 Code S Zerg winrate: 64%
2012 Season 5 Code S Zerg winrate: 53%



What do you mean by this?

i assume the 64% was from the previous season which means that balance is actually going well without a major patch atm.


Maybe. Still, what is the TvZ winrate? I'm more interested in that.


Those are the (set) winrates in Code S for the last three seasons (since queen patch).
GSL 2012, Season 3: ZvP: 45.8%, ZvT: 51.2%, TvP: 47.7%
GSL 2012, Season 4: ZvP: 50.8%, ZvT: 53%, TvP: 47.8%
GSL 2012, Season 5 (unfinished): ZvP: 58.5%, ZvT: 61.3%, TvP: 57%


Sorry, those are the Code S+A winrates... Ty, aksfjh for pointing that out
lemonbone
Profile Joined August 2009
Hong Kong154 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-01 17:00:58
December 01 2012 16:59 GMT
#7764
problem:
- Zerg creep tumors + watch tower + overlord + thousand of lings running around= almost as good as map hack.
- Protoss mothership is boring.

solution:
- remove watch tower, each creep tumors spawn cost mineral after queen dropped it on the ground.
- tell other race to play better.
- bring back arbiter from broodwar. XD
- better map design.

Instead of using the word balancing, we should say how to make starcraft 2 more entertaining to watch. Like altering the unit path finding which allow more micro come into play. And this will enhance visibility on lower quality stream.
BW:1a2a3a4a5a Wol:1a2ffttttttttttt
lemonbone
Profile Joined August 2009
Hong Kong154 Posts
December 01 2012 17:28 GMT
#7765
Just now think about it more about Starcraft 2, the real problem is Blizzard do not have any competitor in the market on competitive RTS games. This mean Dustin Browder will never get replace
BW:1a2a3a4a5a Wol:1a2ffttttttttttt
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
December 01 2012 21:11 GMT
#7766
On December 01 2012 21:25 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 01:40 Big J wrote:
On December 01 2012 01:27 monkybone wrote:
On December 01 2012 01:12 Assirra wrote:
On December 01 2012 00:20 monkybone wrote:
On November 30 2012 20:36 aksfjh wrote:
2012 Season 5 Code S Zerg winrate: 64%
2012 Season 5 Code S Zerg winrate: 53%



What do you mean by this?

i assume the 64% was from the previous season which means that balance is actually going well without a major patch atm.


Maybe. Still, what is the TvZ winrate? I'm more interested in that.


Those are the (set) winrates in Code S for the last three seasons (since queen patch).
GSL 2012, Season 3: ZvP: 45.8%, ZvT: 51.2%, TvP: 47.7%
GSL 2012, Season 4: ZvP: 50.8%, ZvT: 53%, TvP: 47.8%
GSL 2012, Season 5 (unfinished): ZvP: 58.5%, ZvT: 61.3%, TvP: 57%


Sorry, those are the Code S+A winrates... Ty, aksfjh for pointing that out


Wow, those Zerg win rates over 60%... This is a pretty clear sign of a problem
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
December 01 2012 21:13 GMT
#7767
On December 02 2012 01:59 lemonbone wrote:
problem:
- Zerg creep tumors + watch tower + overlord + thousand of lings running around= almost as good as map hack.
- Protoss mothership is boring.

solution:
- remove watch tower, each creep tumors spawn cost mineral after queen dropped it on the ground.
- tell other race to play better.
- bring back arbiter from broodwar. XD
- better map design.

Instead of using the word balancing, we should say how to make starcraft 2 more entertaining to watch. Like altering the unit path finding which allow more micro come into play. And this will enhance visibility on lower quality stream.


I was always confused how Zergs said they had the worst scouting in the game. I would make the argument that at all points in the game, a decent Zerg player has the best scouting by far of the races. Even in beginning, if you're a decent Zerg player who drone scouts at the right time, counts gas, looks/understands build timings, you get all the information you need. And then even if that's not enough, you can sack a bunch of overlords to have more information. Then later in the game, it's basically the whole map.
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
CyDe
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1010 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-05 04:48:26
December 05 2012 04:45 GMT
#7768
On December 02 2012 06:13 zmansman17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2012 01:59 lemonbone wrote:
problem:
- Zerg creep tumors + watch tower + overlord + thousand of lings running around= almost as good as map hack.
- Protoss mothership is boring.

solution:
- remove watch tower, each creep tumors spawn cost mineral after queen dropped it on the ground.
- tell other race to play better.
- bring back arbiter from broodwar. XD
- better map design.

Instead of using the word balancing, we should say how to make starcraft 2 more entertaining to watch. Like altering the unit path finding which allow more micro come into play. And this will enhance visibility on lower quality stream.


I was always confused how Zergs said they had the worst scouting in the game. I would make the argument that at all points in the game, a decent Zerg player has the best scouting by far of the races. Even in beginning, if you're a decent Zerg player who drone scouts at the right time, counts gas, looks/understands build timings, you get all the information you need. And then even if that's not enough, you can sack a bunch of overlords to have more information. Then later in the game, it's basically the whole map.

I think much of it is that overlords can be shot down pretty easily, and it's not too hard to put your tech in a place where you'll have time to react to the overlord scout. I do agree with you, but I think that is where they are coming from; to scout, they have to preform a sacrifice, and even that is not a solid guarantee.

Though obviously other races don't have a guarantee either, but I suppose the Zerg's felt/feel like it was not even among the races, the amount of time/resources vs accuracy of scout.
youtube.com/GamingCyDe-- My totally abandoned youtube channel that I might revisit at some point
LavaLava
Profile Joined January 2012
United States235 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-05 17:23:10
December 05 2012 17:21 GMT
#7769
On December 01 2012 01:40 Big J wrote:
Those are the (set) winrates in Code S for the last three seasons (since queen patch).
GSL 2012, Season 3: ZvP: 45.8%, ZvT: 51.2%, TvP: 47.7%
GSL 2012, Season 4: ZvP: 50.8%, ZvT: 53%, TvP: 47.8%
GSL 2012, Season 5 (unfinished): ZvP: 58.5%, ZvT: 61.3%, TvP: 57%

The interesting thing is that you can see TvP winrates went up quite heavily, while ZvT winrates also shot up. So it's not as if Terrans all just suddenly started playing poorly.

I mean, I'm pretty sure all the bad Terrans have been wiped from these statistics by now.
Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
December 09 2012 17:02 GMT
#7770
This isn't so much a balance change as a design change, but here goes.

To consider: Queens may be too strong against air.

The reasoning: Because Zerglings are such a fantastic way of cleaning up failed pressure, Protoss and Terran are usually limited to all-ins, a few very heavy pressure builds, and some air play. The air play, though, has been going out of style, especially in PvZ. This makes the early game disappointingly empty of any interaction, as neither race has a way to do anything without risking huge losses. Air-based openers allow Protoss to put on pressure without risking their units to Zergling cleanup, and as such add interest to that portion of the game. The main enemy of this PvZ air harassment is the Queen, on account of the Spore Crawler's immobility. In order to bring this style of play back into the limelight, a nerf to the Queen's anti-air may be of use. Alternatively, a Void Ray buff could have the same effect without altering any other 1v1 matchups (when's the last time you've seen a Void Ray built in a tournament?)

Possible solutions: 1 damage nerf to Queen, 1 range nerf (possibly with the inclusion of a range upgrade at Hatchery tech), health nerf, 1 armor buff to Void Ray.

Possible repercussions: Banshees are already a very capable harassment unit, even with Queens in their current state. This could make Hellion/Banshee openers too strong. Perhaps this would need to accompany a change to reduce the Banshee's damage against non-light, although that could cripple current mech builds. Worth keeping in mind.
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-09 18:44:03
December 09 2012 18:37 GMT
#7771
On December 02 2012 06:13 zmansman17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2012 01:59 lemonbone wrote:
problem:
- Zerg creep tumors + watch tower + overlord + thousand of lings running around= almost as good as map hack.
- Protoss mothership is boring.

solution:
- remove watch tower, each creep tumors spawn cost mineral after queen dropped it on the ground.
- tell other race to play better.
- bring back arbiter from broodwar. XD
- better map design.

Instead of using the word balancing, we should say how to make starcraft 2 more entertaining to watch. Like altering the unit path finding which allow more micro come into play. And this will enhance visibility on lower quality stream.


I was always confused how Zergs said they had the worst scouting in the game. I would make the argument that at all points in the game, a decent Zerg player has the best scouting by far of the races. Even in beginning, if you're a decent Zerg player who drone scouts at the right time, counts gas, looks/understands build timings, you get all the information you need. And then even if that's not enough, you can sack a bunch of overlords to have more information. Then later in the game, it's basically the whole map.


Although I hear what you're saying, this sort of argument can only work at the lower levels of the playerbase and also will only make sense at that level since at the higher level, things like worker scouts and overlord scouts are quite easily denied.

Before the overlord speed buff, Zergs really did have the worst scouting in the game. Terrans have scans. Its undeniable, its available all the time and its everywhere. Protoss have observers (nothing needs to be said). The Zerg options are sacing lings, sacing overlords and making changelings everywhere. All 3 of those options are substantially more difficult to pull off and actually get to see anything than the P or T options.

The part where you said you can just sac a bunch of overlords is also incorrect since its still easy to deny those and if you try to sac earlier ones, they're so important just to not fall behind in macro and losing them/becoming blocked REALLY hurts a Zerg.

I have an easier time controlling and seeing the map as a Terran than as a Zerg tbh at high masters.

On December 10 2012 02:02 Acritter wrote:
This isn't so much a balance change as a design change, but here goes.

To consider: Queens may be too strong against air.

The reasoning: Because Zerglings are such a fantastic way of cleaning up failed pressure, Protoss and Terran are usually limited to all-ins, a few very heavy pressure builds, and some air play. The air play, though, has been going out of style, especially in PvZ. This makes the early game disappointingly empty of any interaction, as neither race has a way to do anything without risking huge losses. Air-based openers allow Protoss to put on pressure without risking their units to Zergling cleanup, and as such add interest to that portion of the game. The main enemy of this PvZ air harassment is the Queen, on account of the Spore Crawler's immobility. In order to bring this style of play back into the limelight, a nerf to the Queen's anti-air may be of use. Alternatively, a Void Ray buff could have the same effect without altering any other 1v1 matchups (when's the last time you've seen a Void Ray built in a tournament?)

Possible solutions: 1 damage nerf to Queen, 1 range nerf (possibly with the inclusion of a range upgrade at Hatchery tech), health nerf, 1 armor buff to Void Ray.

Possible repercussions: Banshees are already a very capable harassment unit, even with Queens in their current state. This could make Hellion/Banshee openers too strong. Perhaps this would need to accompany a change to reduce the Banshee's damage against non-light, although that could cripple current mech builds. Worth keeping in mind.


If anything, Queens aren't strong enough against air since Zerg has to rely on them + immobile spores (re-rooting is not mobility since you can't fire while moving it). If Zergs didn't rely entirely on those 2 things for safety, a change to queens might be ok to suggest. However, because zerg was designed like this, any sort of weakening of queens completely destroys any possibilities of safe opening vs any race.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-09 18:43:51
December 09 2012 18:43 GMT
#7772
oops double-post
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11047 Posts
December 09 2012 18:51 GMT
#7773
On December 10 2012 03:37 sCCrooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2012 06:13 zmansman17 wrote:
On December 02 2012 01:59 lemonbone wrote:
problem:
- Zerg creep tumors + watch tower + overlord + thousand of lings running around= almost as good as map hack.
- Protoss mothership is boring.

solution:
- remove watch tower, each creep tumors spawn cost mineral after queen dropped it on the ground.
- tell other race to play better.
- bring back arbiter from broodwar. XD
- better map design.

Instead of using the word balancing, we should say how to make starcraft 2 more entertaining to watch. Like altering the unit path finding which allow more micro come into play. And this will enhance visibility on lower quality stream.


I was always confused how Zergs said they had the worst scouting in the game. I would make the argument that at all points in the game, a decent Zerg player has the best scouting by far of the races. Even in beginning, if you're a decent Zerg player who drone scouts at the right time, counts gas, looks/understands build timings, you get all the information you need. And then even if that's not enough, you can sack a bunch of overlords to have more information. Then later in the game, it's basically the whole map.


Although I hear what you're saying, this sort of argument can only work at the lower levels of the playerbase and also will only make sense at that level since at the higher level, things like worker scouts and overlord scouts are quite easily denied.

Before the overlord speed buff, Zergs really did have the worst scouting in the game. Terrans have scans. Its undeniable, its available all the time and its everywhere. Protoss have observers (nothing needs to be said). The Zerg options are sacing lings, sacing overlords and making changelings everywhere. All 3 of those options are substantially more difficult to pull off and actually get to see anything than the P or T options.

The part where you said you can just sac a bunch of overlords is also incorrect since its still easy to deny those and if you try to sac earlier ones, they're so important just to not fall behind in macro and losing them/becoming blocked REALLY hurts a Zerg.

I have an easier time controlling and seeing the map as a Terran than as a Zerg tbh at high masters.

Show nested quote +
On December 10 2012 02:02 Acritter wrote:
This isn't so much a balance change as a design change, but here goes.

To consider: Queens may be too strong against air.

The reasoning: Because Zerglings are such a fantastic way of cleaning up failed pressure, Protoss and Terran are usually limited to all-ins, a few very heavy pressure builds, and some air play. The air play, though, has been going out of style, especially in PvZ. This makes the early game disappointingly empty of any interaction, as neither race has a way to do anything without risking huge losses. Air-based openers allow Protoss to put on pressure without risking their units to Zergling cleanup, and as such add interest to that portion of the game. The main enemy of this PvZ air harassment is the Queen, on account of the Spore Crawler's immobility. In order to bring this style of play back into the limelight, a nerf to the Queen's anti-air may be of use. Alternatively, a Void Ray buff could have the same effect without altering any other 1v1 matchups (when's the last time you've seen a Void Ray built in a tournament?)

Possible solutions: 1 damage nerf to Queen, 1 range nerf (possibly with the inclusion of a range upgrade at Hatchery tech), health nerf, 1 armor buff to Void Ray.

Possible repercussions: Banshees are already a very capable harassment unit, even with Queens in their current state. This could make Hellion/Banshee openers too strong. Perhaps this would need to accompany a change to reduce the Banshee's damage against non-light, although that could cripple current mech builds. Worth keeping in mind.


If anything, Queens aren't strong enough against air since Zerg has to rely on them + immobile spores (re-rooting is not mobility since you can't fire while moving it). If Zergs didn't rely entirely on those 2 things for safety, a change to queens might be ok to suggest. However, because zerg was designed like this, any sort of weakening of queens completely destroys any possibilities of safe opening vs any race.


The buff might have been overkill. In PvZ no zerg should be surprised.Toss on the other hand either loses a probe or risks losing their whole force to a swarm of lings if they poke out.

Obs area distinct tech path and come out later in the game. Earlier on between 5 range queens and lings, it requires a bit of luck and laziness on part of the zerg to effectively scout what they are committing to. That's why Stargate openings should have become the standard in the matchup before bliz nerfed them to death.

The spore change meant that you couldnt commit lightly to voids and make a zerg work to keep his thirdbase or atleast have some sort of commitment to things besides drones before taking it.
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
December 09 2012 19:54 GMT
#7774
On December 10 2012 03:51 Sabu113 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2012 03:37 sCCrooked wrote:
On December 02 2012 06:13 zmansman17 wrote:
On December 02 2012 01:59 lemonbone wrote:
problem:
- Zerg creep tumors + watch tower + overlord + thousand of lings running around= almost as good as map hack.
- Protoss mothership is boring.

solution:
- remove watch tower, each creep tumors spawn cost mineral after queen dropped it on the ground.
- tell other race to play better.
- bring back arbiter from broodwar. XD
- better map design.

Instead of using the word balancing, we should say how to make starcraft 2 more entertaining to watch. Like altering the unit path finding which allow more micro come into play. And this will enhance visibility on lower quality stream.


I was always confused how Zergs said they had the worst scouting in the game. I would make the argument that at all points in the game, a decent Zerg player has the best scouting by far of the races. Even in beginning, if you're a decent Zerg player who drone scouts at the right time, counts gas, looks/understands build timings, you get all the information you need. And then even if that's not enough, you can sack a bunch of overlords to have more information. Then later in the game, it's basically the whole map.


Although I hear what you're saying, this sort of argument can only work at the lower levels of the playerbase and also will only make sense at that level since at the higher level, things like worker scouts and overlord scouts are quite easily denied.

Before the overlord speed buff, Zergs really did have the worst scouting in the game. Terrans have scans. Its undeniable, its available all the time and its everywhere. Protoss have observers (nothing needs to be said). The Zerg options are sacing lings, sacing overlords and making changelings everywhere. All 3 of those options are substantially more difficult to pull off and actually get to see anything than the P or T options.

The part where you said you can just sac a bunch of overlords is also incorrect since its still easy to deny those and if you try to sac earlier ones, they're so important just to not fall behind in macro and losing them/becoming blocked REALLY hurts a Zerg.

I have an easier time controlling and seeing the map as a Terran than as a Zerg tbh at high masters.

On December 10 2012 02:02 Acritter wrote:
This isn't so much a balance change as a design change, but here goes.

To consider: Queens may be too strong against air.

The reasoning: Because Zerglings are such a fantastic way of cleaning up failed pressure, Protoss and Terran are usually limited to all-ins, a few very heavy pressure builds, and some air play. The air play, though, has been going out of style, especially in PvZ. This makes the early game disappointingly empty of any interaction, as neither race has a way to do anything without risking huge losses. Air-based openers allow Protoss to put on pressure without risking their units to Zergling cleanup, and as such add interest to that portion of the game. The main enemy of this PvZ air harassment is the Queen, on account of the Spore Crawler's immobility. In order to bring this style of play back into the limelight, a nerf to the Queen's anti-air may be of use. Alternatively, a Void Ray buff could have the same effect without altering any other 1v1 matchups (when's the last time you've seen a Void Ray built in a tournament?)

Possible solutions: 1 damage nerf to Queen, 1 range nerf (possibly with the inclusion of a range upgrade at Hatchery tech), health nerf, 1 armor buff to Void Ray.

Possible repercussions: Banshees are already a very capable harassment unit, even with Queens in their current state. This could make Hellion/Banshee openers too strong. Perhaps this would need to accompany a change to reduce the Banshee's damage against non-light, although that could cripple current mech builds. Worth keeping in mind.


If anything, Queens aren't strong enough against air since Zerg has to rely on them + immobile spores (re-rooting is not mobility since you can't fire while moving it). If Zergs didn't rely entirely on those 2 things for safety, a change to queens might be ok to suggest. However, because zerg was designed like this, any sort of weakening of queens completely destroys any possibilities of safe opening vs any race.


The buff might have been overkill. In PvZ no zerg should be surprised.Toss on the other hand either loses a probe or risks losing their whole force to a swarm of lings if they poke out.

Obs area distinct tech path and come out later in the game. Earlier on between 5 range queens and lings, it requires a bit of luck and laziness on part of the zerg to effectively scout what they are committing to. That's why Stargate openings should have become the standard in the matchup before bliz nerfed them to death.

The spore change meant that you couldnt commit lightly to voids and make a zerg work to keep his thirdbase or atleast have some sort of commitment to things besides drones before taking it.


Well the buff for queens only affected the ground attack. It had no effect whatsoever on stargate openings.

The truth is that Z early game AA still sucks. I guess the developers figured Zergs would just go mutas every matchup and somehow be fine.

Obs might be a distinct path, but in WoL (I know in HotS it changes) you also have to sac a worker to build an evo and then sac more workers to make the spores. Spores also come out later in the game but at a much greater cost to Z. Also its not possible to start sacing economy too early so Ps can get robo tech going off an FFE around 6-7 minutes around the same time Zs are just around able to afford an evo and spores (though because P goes robo, there's no need for spores since no SG). The timings just work out really well.

What I don't like when I'm playing P is that I really have no map control unless I'm so far ahead I'm able to just charge into all Z's bases and start wrecking stuff. I feel isolated and unable to do anything at all other than blindly follow my build and trust in it. Of course this works just fine for me being P at a mid-masters level but at GM and pro levels I'm sure the problems become more pronounced as the Zergs are also more refined.

Zerg and Protoss need to be flat-out redesigned from scratch. Protoss is designed around warpgate, forcefield, collossi and mothership+vortex's existence while Zerg is designed around the existence of fungals and ITs. Both of them are entirely relying on gimmicky tech or spells to survive and this is bad design. The race should be completely sufficient even vs itself.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
CyDe
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1010 Posts
December 12 2012 04:11 GMT
#7775
On December 10 2012 04:54 sCCrooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2012 03:51 Sabu113 wrote:
On December 10 2012 03:37 sCCrooked wrote:
On December 02 2012 06:13 zmansman17 wrote:
On December 02 2012 01:59 lemonbone wrote:
problem:
- Zerg creep tumors + watch tower + overlord + thousand of lings running around= almost as good as map hack.
- Protoss mothership is boring.

solution:
- remove watch tower, each creep tumors spawn cost mineral after queen dropped it on the ground.
- tell other race to play better.
- bring back arbiter from broodwar. XD
- better map design.

Instead of using the word balancing, we should say how to make starcraft 2 more entertaining to watch. Like altering the unit path finding which allow more micro come into play. And this will enhance visibility on lower quality stream.


I was always confused how Zergs said they had the worst scouting in the game. I would make the argument that at all points in the game, a decent Zerg player has the best scouting by far of the races. Even in beginning, if you're a decent Zerg player who drone scouts at the right time, counts gas, looks/understands build timings, you get all the information you need. And then even if that's not enough, you can sack a bunch of overlords to have more information. Then later in the game, it's basically the whole map.


Although I hear what you're saying, this sort of argument can only work at the lower levels of the playerbase and also will only make sense at that level since at the higher level, things like worker scouts and overlord scouts are quite easily denied.

Before the overlord speed buff, Zergs really did have the worst scouting in the game. Terrans have scans. Its undeniable, its available all the time and its everywhere. Protoss have observers (nothing needs to be said). The Zerg options are sacing lings, sacing overlords and making changelings everywhere. All 3 of those options are substantially more difficult to pull off and actually get to see anything than the P or T options.

The part where you said you can just sac a bunch of overlords is also incorrect since its still easy to deny those and if you try to sac earlier ones, they're so important just to not fall behind in macro and losing them/becoming blocked REALLY hurts a Zerg.

I have an easier time controlling and seeing the map as a Terran than as a Zerg tbh at high masters.

On December 10 2012 02:02 Acritter wrote:
This isn't so much a balance change as a design change, but here goes.

To consider: Queens may be too strong against air.

The reasoning: Because Zerglings are such a fantastic way of cleaning up failed pressure, Protoss and Terran are usually limited to all-ins, a few very heavy pressure builds, and some air play. The air play, though, has been going out of style, especially in PvZ. This makes the early game disappointingly empty of any interaction, as neither race has a way to do anything without risking huge losses. Air-based openers allow Protoss to put on pressure without risking their units to Zergling cleanup, and as such add interest to that portion of the game. The main enemy of this PvZ air harassment is the Queen, on account of the Spore Crawler's immobility. In order to bring this style of play back into the limelight, a nerf to the Queen's anti-air may be of use. Alternatively, a Void Ray buff could have the same effect without altering any other 1v1 matchups (when's the last time you've seen a Void Ray built in a tournament?)

Possible solutions: 1 damage nerf to Queen, 1 range nerf (possibly with the inclusion of a range upgrade at Hatchery tech), health nerf, 1 armor buff to Void Ray.

Possible repercussions: Banshees are already a very capable harassment unit, even with Queens in their current state. This could make Hellion/Banshee openers too strong. Perhaps this would need to accompany a change to reduce the Banshee's damage against non-light, although that could cripple current mech builds. Worth keeping in mind.


If anything, Queens aren't strong enough against air since Zerg has to rely on them + immobile spores (re-rooting is not mobility since you can't fire while moving it). If Zergs didn't rely entirely on those 2 things for safety, a change to queens might be ok to suggest. However, because zerg was designed like this, any sort of weakening of queens completely destroys any possibilities of safe opening vs any race.


The buff might have been overkill. In PvZ no zerg should be surprised.Toss on the other hand either loses a probe or risks losing their whole force to a swarm of lings if they poke out.

Obs area distinct tech path and come out later in the game. Earlier on between 5 range queens and lings, it requires a bit of luck and laziness on part of the zerg to effectively scout what they are committing to. That's why Stargate openings should have become the standard in the matchup before bliz nerfed them to death.

The spore change meant that you couldnt commit lightly to voids and make a zerg work to keep his thirdbase or atleast have some sort of commitment to things besides drones before taking it.

......
Zerg and Protoss need to be flat-out redesigned from scratch. Protoss is designed around warpgate, forcefield, collossi and mothership+vortex's existence while Zerg is designed around the existence of fungals and ITs. Both of them are entirely relying on gimmicky tech or spells to survive and this is bad design. The race should be completely sufficient even vs itself.

I don't think that's fair to say. I know that the game has developed a lot since release, but I mean. There were very successful playing styles before infestors/ITs became huge, or archon toilets became huge. I do agree that the problems seem to be less about stats and more about the "scaffolding," but I don't think it's fair to say entire races have been built upon single plays. Though I suppose warpgate is an exception; without it, Protoss is completely different. They put a lot of emphasis on it.
youtube.com/GamingCyDe-- My totally abandoned youtube channel that I might revisit at some point
Talack
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada2742 Posts
December 12 2012 04:22 GMT
#7776
Queens are just fine vs air, stargate play would become way too strong with nerfs to them while TvZ would not change.

Nerfing queens would mean that zerg has to take the hydralisk route early on and would just open up a bunch of new balance problems that doesn't address any of the core-issues with PvZ and TvZ
ilbh
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Brazil1606 Posts
January 13 2013 12:22 GMT
#7777
Zerg is fine, the problem is on T and P, they have fundamental problems.

its needed to completely change the Protoss race. their units are too expensive and powerful, you need to stay in base until 200/200 to move out and you can't "remake" your army like T and Z can. it's retarded. you lost some units? you lost the game... this is plain boring. Z and T are zergish, but P is laggish lol make P a little more zergy and we have a better game.

as for Terran, their defense sucks. P and Z can easily attack throught it. give more hit points or armor to supply deppots or structures.
stim pack is too powerful and at the same time unforgiven. 2 stim packs and your entire army is red, almost dead. nerf it a little and make it possible to almost spam it without losing your units. maybe don't even nerf it. could even add an upgrade to medivacs so it could heal more than 1 unit at the same time.
Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12156 Posts
January 13 2013 22:33 GMT
#7778
On January 13 2013 21:22 ilbh wrote:
could even add an upgrade to medivacs so it could heal more than 1 unit at the same time.


Yeah, no, you could definitely not do that.
No will to live, no wish to die
ne0lith
Profile Joined August 2011
537 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-14 00:38:51
January 14 2013 00:38 GMT
#7779
Make medivacs heal tanks and banshees as well.
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
March 12 2013 07:17 GMT
#7780
Now that HotS is out in California as well, let me bump this thread to remind people that THIS is the place where you post your balance opinions, not other places. Still, balance whine without any constructive argument is not welcome. Let the HotS balance discussion begin in a civilized manner.
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