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On March 17 2013 08:15 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:59 Belha wrote:On March 17 2013 07:38 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:32 Belha wrote:
Speedvacs are op in PvT. Hoping for the faster balance patch from blizz (knowing that they usually take a loooooong time to balance obvious imbalances). I was actually just thinking about this and made a post here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758¤tpage=6#103I think the key to defending these drops lies in the following areas; building placement, reaction time, pre postioning of units and defensive structures, and map vision. These are all skill and decision based things. Balance is not the issue when all of these things aren't being utilized properly. I just read ur post. Apreciated the the polite way to lay the arguments. Still, I'm sorry to disagree with most of them. First, WoL drops were not a problem, with the exception of very few maps for PvT, (never in TvZ due to creep mobility to defend). Now in Hots, speedvacs are unmatched in mobility for the P. Also, the very fast cooldown for the speed, plus no cost at all, make zero risk for the T in case of good P defense placement. It doesn't mather of the protoss has invested a lot into defending the drop timing, with afterburn, the drop is always safe to leave. No more drop baits, no more focus the medivacs in a a chase. While T is dropping, now the P will always lose material, and T can escape unpunished, either with P is well positioned or not. If the P is well positioned, then the T can pull back the drop, speed up, and join forces with some frontal force and outnumber the P front army (due to forces defending in main). If the P is not defending the drop, then time to gain material for T. So the result is that you either die to the drop because you played towards securing a third for the macro game, or you survive the drop but are considerably behind in the macro game. Either way, when the T uses drops, (always talking about top pro level) the T will be gaining more and more eco and suply leads as game (and drops) progresses. Now I will also politely disagree with you sir ;D First, in WoL drops were a problem before medevacs got a speed nerf. Speedvacs are not unmatched in mobility by protoss, (blink / recall / prism / phoenix?) Drops are not always safe to leave if you have a blink, phoenix, or feedback. Especially if these things are prepositioned. Using time warp with blink or phoenix will ensure their demise. I think with blink or feedback, pre positioned units, good building placement and good map vision (obs and pylons to spot drops) and perhaps a cannon per base (so widow mines are shut down) protoss can take a 3rd pretty early (obviously map dependent) Protoss can also use photon overcharge to assist in defense. While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall. See what I did there?  Ball is in your court
Phoenix play is unviable for real PvT macro play(1).
Recall? Afterburn and leave, or better, go join the front army while P's move as a turtle.
Feedback will not be ready in time and cannot kill a medivac by their own in until lategame. (2)
Obs for map vision is ok, but cannot change that the drop forces u to go to defend while the drop can leave+afterburn to the front while ur units are slow. All this while T is already droping his 3rd (9-10 min).
Cannons are just useless to stop drops in like 90% of the maps beacuse it cannot cover space. The drop spots the cannon, leaves and either drops in other place, or drops aways from cannon and target it asap. Also cannons are expensive, specially when T is already taking the eco lead. (3)
Rushing blink is dead sentence for aganist the most simple stim pressure at 8-9 min. (4)
"While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall." (5)
Now, I have no problem about talking about PvT theory of you wanna discuss. But if you don't know the basics and timings of the match up for the P at higher level (points 1,2,3,4 and 5), then the discussion is pointless.
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In TvT when someone goes for heavy drop play the other guy makes turrets.When a zerg goes mutalisks terran makes turrets,when the protoss goes oracles terran makes turrets.
Why don't the other races make static defense? Can someone explain to me?
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T has yet to lose to a non terran in the MLG winter. Thorzain may lose soon, but still. Seems like the early days of WOL all over again.
Hots>WOL, just not balanced yet.
Speed medivacs are a problem, because medivacs are already very good when they get into position. Im not saying they absolutely need a nerf because I'm not a balance designer, but they are very very good right now.
not to mention free seige tech, and reapers with no tech lab. They just made terran much better at every phase.
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On March 17 2013 08:44 DifuntO wrote:
In TvT when someone goes for heavy drop play the other guy makes turrets.When a zerg goes mutalisks terran makes turrets,when the protoss goes oracles terran makes turrets.
Why don't the other races make static defense? Can someone explain to me?
With the mainbases being that big as they are, turrets do shit in TvT unless you mass them, and the same goes for static defence from Protoss and Zerg. And after spending 1-2k minerals in early static defence your opponent is quite ahead without doing any point of dmg to you.
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On March 17 2013 08:35 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 08:15 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:59 Belha wrote:On March 17 2013 07:38 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:32 Belha wrote:
Speedvacs are op in PvT. Hoping for the faster balance patch from blizz (knowing that they usually take a loooooong time to balance obvious imbalances). I was actually just thinking about this and made a post here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758¤tpage=6#103I think the key to defending these drops lies in the following areas; building placement, reaction time, pre postioning of units and defensive structures, and map vision. These are all skill and decision based things. Balance is not the issue when all of these things aren't being utilized properly. I just read ur post. Apreciated the the polite way to lay the arguments. Still, I'm sorry to disagree with most of them. First, WoL drops were not a problem, with the exception of very few maps for PvT, (never in TvZ due to creep mobility to defend). Now in Hots, speedvacs are unmatched in mobility for the P. Also, the very fast cooldown for the speed, plus no cost at all, make zero risk for the T in case of good P defense placement. It doesn't mather of the protoss has invested a lot into defending the drop timing, with afterburn, the drop is always safe to leave. No more drop baits, no more focus the medivacs in a a chase. While T is dropping, now the P will always lose material, and T can escape unpunished, either with P is well positioned or not. If the P is well positioned, then the T can pull back the drop, speed up, and join forces with some frontal force and outnumber the P front army (due to forces defending in main). If the P is not defending the drop, then time to gain material for T. So the result is that you either die to the drop because you played towards securing a third for the macro game, or you survive the drop but are considerably behind in the macro game. Either way, when the T uses drops, (always talking about top pro level) the T will be gaining more and more eco and suply leads as game (and drops) progresses. Now I will also politely disagree with you sir ;D First, in WoL drops were a problem before medevacs got a speed nerf. Speedvacs are not unmatched in mobility by protoss, (blink / recall / prism / phoenix?) Drops are not always safe to leave if you have a blink, phoenix, or feedback. Especially if these things are prepositioned. Using time warp with blink or phoenix will ensure their demise. I think with blink or feedback, pre positioned units, good building placement and good map vision (obs and pylons to spot drops) and perhaps a cannon per base (so widow mines are shut down) protoss can take a 3rd pretty early (obviously map dependent) Protoss can also use photon overcharge to assist in defense. While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall. See what I did there? Ball is in your court Phoenix play is unviable for real PvT macro play(1). Recall? Afterburn and leave, or better, go join the front army while P's move as a turtle. Feedback will not be ready in time and cannot kill a medivac by their own in until lategame. (2) Obs for map vision is ok, but cannot change that the drop forces u to go to defend while the drop can leave+afterburn to the front while ur units are slow. All this while T is already droping his 3rd (9-10 min). Cannons are just useless to stop drops in like 90% of the maps beacuse it cannot cover space. The drop spots the cannon, leaves and either drops in other place, or drops aways from cannon and target it asap. Also cannons are expensive, specially when T is already taking the eco lead. (3) Rushing blink is dead sentence for aganist the most simple stim pressure at 8-9 min. (4) "While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall." (5) Now, I have no problem about talking about PvT theory of you wanna discuss. But if you don't know the basics and timings of the match up for the P at higher level (points 1,2,3,4 and 5), then the discussion is pointless.
All your points get countered by you simply making an observer, checking his tech, then pumping out another 2 or 3 observers to spot the incoming drop. You can do it now safely since you got mothership core...
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Hello. watching MLG Winter Championship at the moment. Bunch of people in chat talking about how Terran is stupid / OP / No skill race / Nerf Terran etc.... and i just wanted to make this comment on a balance thread.
Yes Terran is very very strong at the moment. However. I, being a Protoss player, love how Terran plays out. so good, so clean, so fun to watch, and takes a TON of skill to master. I feel that Terran is close to being a set in stone race. Air is great, mech is new and fun. MMM so strong but hard to master for non pros.
Non Pros is the key phrase here. I feel like pro gamers need to branch out a little more. there skill set is very high, and needs to be shown. Similar to what we are seeing in the MLG. Its like the Terran players have gotten so much better. But the truth is that Terran is a hard race to play right now. Only top skill can show how "OP" the race is. And If your not pro then, YES its gonna be hard.
Having said this, Plz do not nerf Terran. buff Toss and Zerg to balance where Terran is now. This game needs to be hard for all but top Masters and GM. The game would be so much better and would make watching pro tournaments a whole new experience for viewers.
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On March 17 2013 08:46 covote wrote:
T has yet to lose to a non terran in the MLG winter. Thorzain may lose soon, but still. Seems like the early days of WOL all over again.
Hots>WOL, just not balanced yet.
Speed medivacs are a problem, because medivacs are already very good when they get into position. Im not saying they absolutely need a nerf because I'm not a balance designer, but they are very very good right now.
not to mention free seige tech, and reapers with no tech lab. They just made terran much better at every phase.
At MLG winter (at the time of writing) there has been two terran matchups where both players are korean and it is not a mirror match. That matches were polt v creator (3-1 to Polt) and innovation v leenock (3-0 to innovation). Besides these, all games have been foreigners getting beaten by good korean players. Balance has nothing to do with it. Until you get proper korean v korean games in significant numbers, calling imbalance is silly.
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On March 17 2013 08:48 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 08:44 DifuntO wrote:
In TvT when someone goes for heavy drop play the other guy makes turrets.When a zerg goes mutalisks terran makes turrets,when the protoss goes oracles terran makes turrets.
Why don't the other races make static defense? Can someone explain to me? With the mainbases being that big as they are, turrets do shit in TvT unless you mass them, and the same goes for static defence from Protoss and Zerg. And after spending 1-2k minerals in early static defence your opponent is quite ahead without doing any point of dmg to you.
When a Terran drops you, there are particular targets in mind - drones, tech, hatches. That narrows down where you need static defenses by a lot. You don't need to cover the whole of your main base.
Second - static defense doesnt have to be overwhelming. There is absolutely no need to drop 1-2k minerals in early static defenses. It is enough to buy time for your speedlings to return and repel the drop.
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On March 17 2013 07:51 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:49 ShamW0W wrote:
Instead of nerfing boost an interesting approach may be to lower Medivac HP. Skilled Terrans could still properly take advantage of the boost but properly prepared defenses would take down Medivacs before they speed past. That could cripple bio-terran in straight up engagements.
You say that but why on earth is that the case? The strength of bio is mobility and, in straight up engagements, why would the Medivacs need to be in firing range?
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In TvT when someone goes for heavy drop play the other guy makes turrets.When a zerg goes mutalisks terran makes turrets,when the protoss goes oracles terran makes turrets.
Why don't the other races make static defense? Can someone explain to me?
Having a couple of spine crawlers in your base to stop them from dropping your mineral line is a good option. However, you'll still need lings + mutalisks to clear up drops anyways, so most zergs tend to just compensate with the lack of static defense with good overlord placement and good map control and more zerglings.
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On March 17 2013 08:56 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:51 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:49 ShamW0W wrote:
Instead of nerfing boost an interesting approach may be to lower Medivac HP. Skilled Terrans could still properly take advantage of the boost but properly prepared defenses would take down Medivacs before they speed past. That could cripple bio-terran in straight up engagements. You say that but why on earth is that the case? The strength of bio is mobility and, in straight up engagements, why would the Medivacs need to be in firing range?
Fungal, storm I guess? Idk
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On March 17 2013 08:46 covote wrote:
T has yet to lose to a non terran in the MLG winter. Thorzain may lose soon, but still. Seems like the early days of WOL all over again.
Hots>WOL, just not balanced yet.
Speed medivacs are a problem, because medivacs are already very good when they get into position. Im not saying they absolutely need a nerf because I'm not a balance designer, but they are very very good right now.
not to mention free seige tech, and reapers with no tech lab. They just made terran much better at every phase.
The only match that was a KR vs KR non-mirror was Polt 3-1 Creator, and that has a precedence in in WoL, Polt 5-1 Creator in IPL FC.
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On March 17 2013 08:49 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 08:35 Belha wrote:On March 17 2013 08:15 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:59 Belha wrote:On March 17 2013 07:38 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:32 Belha wrote:
Speedvacs are op in PvT. Hoping for the faster balance patch from blizz (knowing that they usually take a loooooong time to balance obvious imbalances). I was actually just thinking about this and made a post here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758¤tpage=6#103I think the key to defending these drops lies in the following areas; building placement, reaction time, pre postioning of units and defensive structures, and map vision. These are all skill and decision based things. Balance is not the issue when all of these things aren't being utilized properly. I just read ur post. Apreciated the the polite way to lay the arguments. Still, I'm sorry to disagree with most of them. First, WoL drops were not a problem, with the exception of very few maps for PvT, (never in TvZ due to creep mobility to defend). Now in Hots, speedvacs are unmatched in mobility for the P. Also, the very fast cooldown for the speed, plus no cost at all, make zero risk for the T in case of good P defense placement. It doesn't mather of the protoss has invested a lot into defending the drop timing, with afterburn, the drop is always safe to leave. No more drop baits, no more focus the medivacs in a a chase. While T is dropping, now the P will always lose material, and T can escape unpunished, either with P is well positioned or not. If the P is well positioned, then the T can pull back the drop, speed up, and join forces with some frontal force and outnumber the P front army (due to forces defending in main). If the P is not defending the drop, then time to gain material for T. So the result is that you either die to the drop because you played towards securing a third for the macro game, or you survive the drop but are considerably behind in the macro game. Either way, when the T uses drops, (always talking about top pro level) the T will be gaining more and more eco and suply leads as game (and drops) progresses. Now I will also politely disagree with you sir ;D First, in WoL drops were a problem before medevacs got a speed nerf. Speedvacs are not unmatched in mobility by protoss, (blink / recall / prism / phoenix?) Drops are not always safe to leave if you have a blink, phoenix, or feedback. Especially if these things are prepositioned. Using time warp with blink or phoenix will ensure their demise. I think with blink or feedback, pre positioned units, good building placement and good map vision (obs and pylons to spot drops) and perhaps a cannon per base (so widow mines are shut down) protoss can take a 3rd pretty early (obviously map dependent) Protoss can also use photon overcharge to assist in defense. While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall. See what I did there? Ball is in your court Phoenix play is unviable for real PvT macro play(1). Recall? Afterburn and leave, or better, go join the front army while P's move as a turtle. Feedback will not be ready in time and cannot kill a medivac by their own in until lategame. (2) Obs for map vision is ok, but cannot change that the drop forces u to go to defend while the drop can leave+afterburn to the front while ur units are slow. All this while T is already droping his 3rd (9-10 min). Cannons are just useless to stop drops in like 90% of the maps beacuse it cannot cover space. The drop spots the cannon, leaves and either drops in other place, or drops aways from cannon and target it asap. Also cannons are expensive, specially when T is already taking the eco lead. (3) Rushing blink is dead sentence for aganist the most simple stim pressure at 8-9 min. (4) "While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall." (5) Now, I have no problem about talking about PvT theory of you wanna discuss. But if you don't know the basics and timings of the match up for the P at higher level (points 1,2,3,4 and 5), then the discussion is pointless. All your points get countered by you simply making an observer, checking his tech, then pumping out another 2 or 3 observers to spot the incoming drop. You can do it now safely since you got mothership core...
You could read the whole argumentation, but i guess posting without any care for a discussion or either trolling is faster, funnier and free.
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On March 17 2013 08:59 theprotagonist wrote:Show nested quote +
In TvT when someone goes for heavy drop play the other guy makes turrets.When a zerg goes mutalisks terran makes turrets,when the protoss goes oracles terran makes turrets.
Why don't the other races make static defense? Can someone explain to me?
Having a couple of spine crawlers in your base to stop them from dropping your mineral line is a good option. However, you'll still need lings + mutalisks to clear up drops anyways, so most zergs tend to just compensate with the lack of static defense with good overlord placement and good map control and more zerglings.
Well yeah but a lot of times terran will attack 2 locations at once,main army and a drop so these static defenses can buy you enough time to be able to react and not lose much.
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How would you (anyone) consider this change:
If you use the boost, it puts a debuff on the medivac that prevents it from healing for 30 (pick your duration) seconds.
This would stay relevant throughout the entire game - whereas say the boost costing energy won't be important once the terran has lots of medivacs, or there wasn't any action going on so they're all full energy, etc. If it seems like this debuff is a bit harsh, well that's the point. You can still drop without using the boost, or decide that extra speed is truely going to be useful in a specific situation, you better be ready to let your bio die more easily.
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How would you (anyone) consider this change:
If you use the boost, it puts a debuff on the medivac that prevents it from healing for 30 (pick your duration) seconds.
This would stay relevant throughout the entire game - whereas say the boost costing energy won't be important once the terran has lots of medivacs, or there wasn't any action going on so they're all full energy, etc. If it seems like this debuff is a bit harsh, well that's the point. You can still drop without using the boost, or decide that extra speed is truely going to be useful in a specific situation, you better be ready to let your bio die more easily.
That might be too drastic of a change, I would be happy just to see a change in cd. I want it to be a choice. You can either rambo in or rambo out. I don't fucken want ninja medivacs flying everywhere.
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The only people who have taken a lot of damage from afterburner would've taken it without afterburner.
1. Bad (or non-existent) observer positioning in common drop routes.
2. No static defense (Leenock not building even ONE spore).
Afterburner is perfectly fine, and know that whining about balance when the reality is simply people playing bad is harmful to the health of this game.
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The biggest problem as I see it:
Terran almost inevitably begins the game with the stronger economy against both P and Z and when you combine that with terran being almost safe from harassment (widow-mines making aggression/movement on map risky), while P and Z are quite vulnerable to it, the game will be T favored. It results in most games being played out on terran terms.
With terran having improved quite a bit in the late-game (at least against Z), it's not really clear when Z is supposed to win. Protoss still have strong timings, but I've seen too little of the late-game to make an informed opinion.
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EPT
