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On March 17 2013 08:35 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 08:15 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:59 Belha wrote:On March 17 2013 07:38 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:32 Belha wrote:
Speedvacs are op in PvT. Hoping for the faster balance patch from blizz (knowing that they usually take a loooooong time to balance obvious imbalances). I was actually just thinking about this and made a post here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758¤tpage=6#103I think the key to defending these drops lies in the following areas; building placement, reaction time, pre postioning of units and defensive structures, and map vision. These are all skill and decision based things. Balance is not the issue when all of these things aren't being utilized properly. I just read ur post. Apreciated the the polite way to lay the arguments. Still, I'm sorry to disagree with most of them. First, WoL drops were not a problem, with the exception of very few maps for PvT, (never in TvZ due to creep mobility to defend). Now in Hots, speedvacs are unmatched in mobility for the P. Also, the very fast cooldown for the speed, plus no cost at all, make zero risk for the T in case of good P defense placement. It doesn't mather of the protoss has invested a lot into defending the drop timing, with afterburn, the drop is always safe to leave. No more drop baits, no more focus the medivacs in a a chase. While T is dropping, now the P will always lose material, and T can escape unpunished, either with P is well positioned or not. If the P is well positioned, then the T can pull back the drop, speed up, and join forces with some frontal force and outnumber the P front army (due to forces defending in main). If the P is not defending the drop, then time to gain material for T. So the result is that you either die to the drop because you played towards securing a third for the macro game, or you survive the drop but are considerably behind in the macro game. Either way, when the T uses drops, (always talking about top pro level) the T will be gaining more and more eco and suply leads as game (and drops) progresses. Now I will also politely disagree with you sir ;D First, in WoL drops were a problem before medevacs got a speed nerf. Speedvacs are not unmatched in mobility by protoss, (blink / recall / prism / phoenix?) Drops are not always safe to leave if you have a blink, phoenix, or feedback. Especially if these things are prepositioned. Using time warp with blink or phoenix will ensure their demise. I think with blink or feedback, pre positioned units, good building placement and good map vision (obs and pylons to spot drops) and perhaps a cannon per base (so widow mines are shut down) protoss can take a 3rd pretty early (obviously map dependent) Protoss can also use photon overcharge to assist in defense. While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall. See what I did there?  Ball is in your court Phoenix play is unviable for real PvT macro play(1). Recall? Afterburn and leave, or better, go join the front army while P's move as a turtle. Feedback will not be ready in time and cannot kill a medivac by their own in until lategame. (2) Obs for map vision is ok, but cannot change that the drop forces u to go to defend while the drop can leave+afterburn to the front while ur units are slow. All this while T is already droping his 3rd (9-10 min). Cannons are just useless to stop drops in like 90% of the maps beacuse it cannot cover space. The drop spots the cannon, leaves and either drops in other place, or drops aways from cannon and target it asap. Also cannons are expensive, specially when T is already taking the eco lead. (3) Rushing blink is dead sentence for aganist the most simple stim pressure at 8-9 min. (4) "While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall." (5) Now, I have no problem about talking about PvT theory of you wanna discuss. But if you don't know the basics and timings of the match up for the P at higher level (points 1,2,3,4 and 5), then the discussion is pointless.
Fast blink has been very common vs the standard stim pressure in WoL, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Well yeah but a lot of times terran will attack 2 locations at once,main army and a drop so these static defenses can buy you enough time to be able to react and not lose much. Having spine crawlers in your base will not stop them from doing that. They'll just target down your spawning pool or even worse...your spire. There are way too many important zerg buildlings to cover efficiently with spine crawlers.
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On March 17 2013 09:17 theprotagonist wrote:Show nested quote +Well yeah but a lot of times terran will attack 2 locations at once,main army and a drop so these static defenses can buy you enough time to be able to react and not lose much. Having spine crawlers in your base will not stop them from doing that. They'll just target down your spawning pool or even worse...your spire. There are way too many important zerg buildlings to cover efficiently with spine crawlers.
Just have some tech near your main mineral line and other tech near your natural mineral line. Now your spines/spores in main and natural are defending tech, economy and production!
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On March 17 2013 09:12 m0ck wrote:
The biggest problem as I see it:
Terran almost inevitably begins the game with the stronger economy against both P and Z and when you combine that with terran being almost safe from harassment (widow-mines making aggression/movement on map risky), while P and Z are quite vulnerable to it, the game will be T favored. It results in most games being played out on terran terms.
With terran having improved quite a bit in the late-game (at least against Z), it's not really clear when Z is supposed to win. Protoss still have strong timings, but I've seen too little of the late-game to make an informed opinion.
This is all false; even if a Terran player plays fully economic he's still quite behind an economically playing Zerg because of larva inject (if both players couldn't attack for the first 10 minutes Zerg would always be ahead). As for "early game safeness" Terran with widow mines, a situational unit that can only fire once every 40 seconds, has it no better than Zerg with super queens and Protoss with planetary nexus.
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On March 17 2013 09:25 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 09:12 m0ck wrote:
The biggest problem as I see it:
Terran almost inevitably begins the game with the stronger economy against both P and Z and when you combine that with terran being almost safe from harassment (widow-mines making aggression/movement on map risky), while P and Z are quite vulnerable to it, the game will be T favored. It results in most games being played out on terran terms.
With terran having improved quite a bit in the late-game (at least against Z), it's not really clear when Z is supposed to win. Protoss still have strong timings, but I've seen too little of the late-game to make an informed opinion. This is all false; even if a Terran player plays fully economic he's still quite behind an economically playing Zerg because of larva inject (if both players couldn't attack for the first 10 minutes Zerg would always be ahead). As for "early game safeness" Terran with widow mines, a situational unit that can only fire once every 40 seconds, has it no better than super queens and planetary nexus.
no hes 100% right, might check income graphs of any high level hots tvz or tvp
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On March 17 2013 09:01 Emzeeshady wrote:
I think that there should be some risk involved when going for drops in TvZ. Perhaps make Medivacs slower then normal after they finish the afterburner so they are vulnerable.
Also I think widow mines need to do more Friednly fire as Terrans are just throwing them all over the place instead of using them strategically.
I think swarm hosts and Voids may have to be looked at in PvZ but time will tell.
I saw today how a Phoenix hallucination triggered a mine and put every marine into red.(If the terran wouldn't have scanned the opponent and got 3 bunkers he would have lost, because of this). Only thing I would change in that regard is to make their lock on a bit more dense, so even if the unit died 0.5 seconds ago the mine still shots. That way people could abuse mines a bit more by suiciding units.
Besides that I am seeing Pros deal with the mines just fine, they blink dodge or split Roaches and also pull back in time. But because of this constant attention to their army, their macro suffers and the Terran gets ahead there.
It feels a bit like In WoL PvT where you just distracted the Terran a tiny bit before running over their main army in the lategame hitting with a critical storm.
Changing numbers won't change alot about the distraction factor in most cases.
About the Medivac ... there is alot they can do to change it, even making defensive structures cheaper. But whatever they will do it will make alot of waves. Because any change will enable the other races to easier reach their lategame. And guess we still remember the result of that from WoL.
My favorite would be a cheaper Nydus Network, while the Worm cost is increased.
But overall I think it is really hard to tell ... most people lack something in each matchup and there is alot to learn still. For example I learned today that Vipers force an unburrow if you pull something. I was to afraid to test it, because I thought Vipers already shut down Siege tanks even harder then Immortals, so there is no way in hell the pull would unburrow Widow Mines. Guess I was wrong as the Viper shuts down Terran factory AoE units, except both hellions.
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On March 17 2013 09:27 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 09:25 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 17 2013 09:12 m0ck wrote:
The biggest problem as I see it:
Terran almost inevitably begins the game with the stronger economy against both P and Z and when you combine that with terran being almost safe from harassment (widow-mines making aggression/movement on map risky), while P and Z are quite vulnerable to it, the game will be T favored. It results in most games being played out on terran terms.
With terran having improved quite a bit in the late-game (at least against Z), it's not really clear when Z is supposed to win. Protoss still have strong timings, but I've seen too little of the late-game to make an informed opinion. This is all false; even if a Terran player plays fully economic he's still quite behind an economically playing Zerg because of larva inject (if both players couldn't attack for the first 10 minutes Zerg would always be ahead). As for "early game safeness" Terran with widow mines, a situational unit that can only fire once every 40 seconds, has it no better than super queens and planetary nexus. no hes 100% right, might check income graphs of any high level hots tvz or tvp
100% false. Temporary boosts in mineral income don't make up for Zerg's ability to make 15 drones at once (in the context of the specific scenario we're talking about) and to have a 10-20 drone lead throughout the whole game simply because of the power of larva inject ; if you're denying that Zerg isn't ahead when both players aren't allowed to attack then you're being ludicrous.
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Just have some tech near your main mineral line and other tech near your natural mineral line. Now your spines/spores in main and natural are defending tech, economy and production! lol...there are a lot of angles to attack from, making enough spines and spore crawlers to cover even a massive clump is counterproductive. It would be better to either a) leave some ling + baneling behind to stop them (as you will be able to see the drop with your overlords and ling + baneling is more effective against smaller clumps of marine marauder) or b) give up some ground to the push and deal with the drops first.
Now if I were to dedicate a shit load of minerals to static defense just to stop his drops, he can choose not to drop places with heavy static defenses and just go for my less well defended expos and make my 1k investment give 0 returns. Unlike other races, zergs do have to expand agressively which makes us more vulnerable to attack because there are alot more targets to go for.
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On March 17 2013 09:29 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 09:27 Tsubbi wrote:On March 17 2013 09:25 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 17 2013 09:12 m0ck wrote:
The biggest problem as I see it:
Terran almost inevitably begins the game with the stronger economy against both P and Z and when you combine that with terran being almost safe from harassment (widow-mines making aggression/movement on map risky), while P and Z are quite vulnerable to it, the game will be T favored. It results in most games being played out on terran terms.
With terran having improved quite a bit in the late-game (at least against Z), it's not really clear when Z is supposed to win. Protoss still have strong timings, but I've seen too little of the late-game to make an informed opinion. This is all false; even if a Terran player plays fully economic he's still quite behind an economically playing Zerg because of larva inject (if both players couldn't attack for the first 10 minutes Zerg would always be ahead). As for "early game safeness" Terran with widow mines, a situational unit that can only fire once every 40 seconds, has it no better than super queens and planetary nexus. no hes 100% right, might check income graphs of any high level hots tvz or tvp 100% false. Temporary boosts in mineral income don't make up for Zerg's ability to make 15 drones at once (in the context of the specific scenario we're talking about) and to have a 10-20 drone lead throughout the whole game simply because of the power of larva inject ; if you're denying that Zerg isn't ahead when both players aren't allowed to attack then you're being ludicrous.
Sort of, Zerg gets a lead at the beginning if players aren't allowed to attack for 7min, but then terran overtakes Zerg because of mules, drones take supply.
However, because of reapers/drops every TvZ goes into the the midgame with terran having a slightly worker lead and 3 orbitals to boot 
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On March 17 2013 09:29 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 09:27 Tsubbi wrote:On March 17 2013 09:25 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 17 2013 09:12 m0ck wrote:
The biggest problem as I see it:
Terran almost inevitably begins the game with the stronger economy against both P and Z and when you combine that with terran being almost safe from harassment (widow-mines making aggression/movement on map risky), while P and Z are quite vulnerable to it, the game will be T favored. It results in most games being played out on terran terms.
With terran having improved quite a bit in the late-game (at least against Z), it's not really clear when Z is supposed to win. Protoss still have strong timings, but I've seen too little of the late-game to make an informed opinion. This is all false; even if a Terran player plays fully economic he's still quite behind an economically playing Zerg because of larva inject (if both players couldn't attack for the first 10 minutes Zerg would always be ahead). As for "early game safeness" Terran with widow mines, a situational unit that can only fire once every 40 seconds, has it no better than super queens and planetary nexus. no hes 100% right, might check income graphs of any high level hots tvz or tvp 100% false. Temporary boosts in mineral income don't make up for Zerg's ability to make 15 drones at once (in the context of the specific scenario we're talking about) and to have a 10-20 drone lead throughout the whole game simply because of the power of larva inject ; if you're denying that Zerg isn't ahead when both players aren't allowed to attack then you're being ludicrous.
Well, both players ARE allowed to attack, and, because of a stronger early T game, Z has had to adopt by taking a later third, compared to WoL. Meanwhile T routinely goes for both early 3 cc and double upgrades. In that situation T is ahead from the early game and forward. Just watch some of the games being played at MLG and you will see it play out. TvZ has always depended heavily on the early game economy-battle, and at this point the scale is in terran's favor. Combine that with "you can't attack me" medivacs and a stronger late-game and, to my mind, terran has a sizeable advantage at the moment.
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On March 17 2013 08:35 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 08:15 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:59 Belha wrote:On March 17 2013 07:38 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:32 Belha wrote:
Speedvacs are op in PvT. Hoping for the faster balance patch from blizz (knowing that they usually take a loooooong time to balance obvious imbalances). I was actually just thinking about this and made a post here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758¤tpage=6#103I think the key to defending these drops lies in the following areas; building placement, reaction time, pre postioning of units and defensive structures, and map vision. These are all skill and decision based things. Balance is not the issue when all of these things aren't being utilized properly. I just read ur post. Apreciated the the polite way to lay the arguments. Still, I'm sorry to disagree with most of them. First, WoL drops were not a problem, with the exception of very few maps for PvT, (never in TvZ due to creep mobility to defend). Now in Hots, speedvacs are unmatched in mobility for the P. Also, the very fast cooldown for the speed, plus no cost at all, make zero risk for the T in case of good P defense placement. It doesn't mather of the protoss has invested a lot into defending the drop timing, with afterburn, the drop is always safe to leave. No more drop baits, no more focus the medivacs in a a chase. While T is dropping, now the P will always lose material, and T can escape unpunished, either with P is well positioned or not. If the P is well positioned, then the T can pull back the drop, speed up, and join forces with some frontal force and outnumber the P front army (due to forces defending in main). If the P is not defending the drop, then time to gain material for T. So the result is that you either die to the drop because you played towards securing a third for the macro game, or you survive the drop but are considerably behind in the macro game. Either way, when the T uses drops, (always talking about top pro level) the T will be gaining more and more eco and suply leads as game (and drops) progresses. Now I will also politely disagree with you sir ;D First, in WoL drops were a problem before medevacs got a speed nerf. Speedvacs are not unmatched in mobility by protoss, (blink / recall / prism / phoenix?) Drops are not always safe to leave if you have a blink, phoenix, or feedback. Especially if these things are prepositioned. Using time warp with blink or phoenix will ensure their demise. I think with blink or feedback, pre positioned units, good building placement and good map vision (obs and pylons to spot drops) and perhaps a cannon per base (so widow mines are shut down) protoss can take a 3rd pretty early (obviously map dependent) Protoss can also use photon overcharge to assist in defense. While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall. See what I did there? Ball is in your court Phoenix play is unviable for real PvT macro play(1). Recall? Afterburn and leave, or better, go join the front army while P's move as a turtle. Feedback will not be ready in time and cannot kill a medivac by their own in until lategame. (2) Obs for map vision is ok, but cannot change that the drop forces u to go to defend while the drop can leave+afterburn to the front while ur units are slow. All this while T is already droping his 3rd (9-10 min). Cannons are just useless to stop drops in like 90% of the maps beacuse it cannot cover space. The drop spots the cannon, leaves and either drops in other place, or drops aways from cannon and target it asap. Also cannons are expensive, specially when T is already taking the eco lead. (3) Rushing blink is dead sentence for aganist the most simple stim pressure at 8-9 min. (4) "While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall." (5) Now, I have no problem about talking about PvT theory of you wanna discuss. But if you don't know the basics and timings of the match up for the P at higher level (points 1,2,3,4 and 5), then the discussion is pointless.
I hope you watched RAIN vs JJakji game 2. What I stated at the very opening of this debate was just proven beyond doubt. Rain had 1 cannon in each mineral line, he had pre positioned stalkers (without blink), he had his momma core in between his main so he could photon overcharge either base, he made several obs and positioned them to spot drops, he got out templar (after his first few colosuss) and landed feedbacks on incoming medevacs (which doesnt always kill them but nullifies the drop because they cant heal)
After denying several drops easily and killing several med evacs, he took a 3rd slightly behind terran. With obs + cannons + templar + momma, his 3 bases were perfectly safe from drop harass.Then Rain pushed out with a few colossus, a few templar, and a gateway army and rolled the 3 base terran. JJakji lost so many medevacs in failed harass, doing no damage, that he did not have the ghost + vikings+ medevacs to compliment his MM against the protoss army.
Kind of funny this happened almost exactly as I explained, 20 minutes after I said it. But seriously watch game 2 of Rain vs Jjakji.
I think you misunderstood the part I wrote before I said "see what I did there" I took what you said about how terran can drop with no risk and restated it in reverse saying recall instead of drops.
.... And about that last statement you made
"Now, I have no problem about talking about PvT theory of you wanna discuss. But if you don't know the basics and timings of the match up for the P at higher level (points 1,2,3,4 and 5), then the discussion is pointless."
How does your own foot taste? :p
update: game 5 at MLG of Rain vs Jjakji, same thing as game 2. Static defense + map vision (obs+pylons) + pre positioned units + momma core = Rain completely shuts down drop play. Takes 3rd, pushes out with colossus and storm against a low ghost count and few medevacs (they all got killed trying to drop). Rain wins.
Balance is not the problem with medevacs. It does not take a pro to place pylons, obs, and units. Rain didn't do anything fancy here, a gold level player can do this, he just played standard, safe, and smart.
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On March 17 2013 07:58 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:51 Swimcito wrote:
I Think that Zerg as of right now have two OP things, Abduct from the Viper should not target Massive units, like Colossus and Thor, Period, it should if anything pull the viper towards the thor or colossus, it doesnt make any sence, No matter how strong you are, you cant pull something that is more massive than you while on the air, its just not possible. you feel abduct shouldn't be able to move massive units because... it's unrealistic?
Balance is my main concern, the "realistic" aspect is just another point to further probe my point
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On March 17 2013 10:34 Swimcito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:58 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 17 2013 07:51 Swimcito wrote:
I Think that Zerg as of right now have two OP things, Abduct from the Viper should not target Massive units, like Colossus and Thor, Period, it should if anything pull the viper towards the thor or colossus, it doesnt make any sence, No matter how strong you are, you cant pull something that is more massive than you while on the air, its just not possible. you feel abduct shouldn't be able to move massive units because... it's unrealistic? Balance is my main concern, the "realistic" aspect is just another point to further probe my point
Being unrealistic doesn't further your or anybody's point. Want to talk about realistic? That fact that zerg and protoss are even a thing pretty much removes the discussion of what's realistic.
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I think vipers pulling light units should be able to catapult the unit pulled based on the distance between the viper and the unit. I just wanna see banelings catapulted into marine clumps mostly. The physics for vipers pulling around massive units looks goofy when it treats units like they are all the same weight and mass.
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On March 17 2013 09:49 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 09:29 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 17 2013 09:27 Tsubbi wrote:On March 17 2013 09:25 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 17 2013 09:12 m0ck wrote:
The biggest problem as I see it:
Terran almost inevitably begins the game with the stronger economy against both P and Z and when you combine that with terran being almost safe from harassment (widow-mines making aggression/movement on map risky), while P and Z are quite vulnerable to it, the game will be T favored. It results in most games being played out on terran terms.
With terran having improved quite a bit in the late-game (at least against Z), it's not really clear when Z is supposed to win. Protoss still have strong timings, but I've seen too little of the late-game to make an informed opinion. This is all false; even if a Terran player plays fully economic he's still quite behind an economically playing Zerg because of larva inject (if both players couldn't attack for the first 10 minutes Zerg would always be ahead). As for "early game safeness" Terran with widow mines, a situational unit that can only fire once every 40 seconds, has it no better than super queens and planetary nexus. no hes 100% right, might check income graphs of any high level hots tvz or tvp 100% false. Temporary boosts in mineral income don't make up for Zerg's ability to make 15 drones at once (in the context of the specific scenario we're talking about) and to have a 10-20 drone lead throughout the whole game simply because of the power of larva inject ; if you're denying that Zerg isn't ahead when both players aren't allowed to attack then you're being ludicrous. Well, both players ARE allowed to attack, and, because of a stronger early T game, Z has had to adopt by taking a later third, compared to WoL.
Zerg was able to take thirds at abusively early times in WoL because of the immunity super queens gave them, so "not as fast as WoL" isn't a proper benchmark.
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I hear a lot of "terran op". Not sure if that's true, but if it is - then Blizzard is just repeating the same mistake. They design a more control-driven race, then test it internally with testers who can't quite control it as well as real progamers.
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On March 17 2013 11:06 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 09:49 m0ck wrote:On March 17 2013 09:29 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 17 2013 09:27 Tsubbi wrote:On March 17 2013 09:25 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 17 2013 09:12 m0ck wrote:
The biggest problem as I see it:
Terran almost inevitably begins the game with the stronger economy against both P and Z and when you combine that with terran being almost safe from harassment (widow-mines making aggression/movement on map risky), while P and Z are quite vulnerable to it, the game will be T favored. It results in most games being played out on terran terms.
With terran having improved quite a bit in the late-game (at least against Z), it's not really clear when Z is supposed to win. Protoss still have strong timings, but I've seen too little of the late-game to make an informed opinion. This is all false; even if a Terran player plays fully economic he's still quite behind an economically playing Zerg because of larva inject (if both players couldn't attack for the first 10 minutes Zerg would always be ahead). As for "early game safeness" Terran with widow mines, a situational unit that can only fire once every 40 seconds, has it no better than super queens and planetary nexus. no hes 100% right, might check income graphs of any high level hots tvz or tvp 100% false. Temporary boosts in mineral income don't make up for Zerg's ability to make 15 drones at once (in the context of the specific scenario we're talking about) and to have a 10-20 drone lead throughout the whole game simply because of the power of larva inject ; if you're denying that Zerg isn't ahead when both players aren't allowed to attack then you're being ludicrous. Well, both players ARE allowed to attack, and, because of a stronger early T game, Z has had to adopt by taking a later third, compared to WoL. Zerg was able to take thirds at abusively early times in WoL because of the immunity super queens gave them, so "not as fast as WoL" isn't a proper benchmark.
Indeed. Zerg was able to play as greedy as possible up through 3 base by only making queens, lings, and drones. In literally seconds, Zerg could go from full economy to full army production. No matter what the Terran response, Zerg was ahead economically. The only exception is super fast 3 OC off 1 rax and no gas, which is done blind and is still behind the fastest Zerg 3 base, as well as punishable by a couple of all ins.
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On March 17 2013 11:12 figq wrote:
I hear a lot of "terran op". Not sure if that's true, but if it is - then Blizzard is just repeating the same mistake. They design a more control-driven race, then test it internally with testers who can't quite control it as well as real progamers.
Or we have a race that got knocked out of most WoL tournaments back in November and December, with plenty of time to practice HotS, as well as a 95% Korean line-up showing up to MLG as Terran. It would be a travesty if Terran didn't look powerful right now.
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On March 17 2013 11:18 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 11:12 figq wrote:
I hear a lot of "terran op". Not sure if that's true, but if it is - then Blizzard is just repeating the same mistake. They design a more control-driven race, then test it internally with testers who can't quite control it as well as real progamers. Or we have a race that got knocked out of most WoL tournaments back in November and December, with plenty of time to practice HotS, as well as a 95% Korean line-up showing up to MLG as Terran. It would be a travesty if Terran didn't look powerful right now. A travesty was how terran looked at the beginning of WoL and the most of WoL. I sure hope history doesn't repeat itself. And honestly, I don't think so. My impression of HotS so far is very good, I think this is within reasonable deviation and people are overreacting.
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Widow Mines
Problem:
It appears to me that widow mines are unreasonably strong in ZvT, as an advancing defensive front in particular, because zerg can not hope to safely pursue a fleeing army in the face of widow mines.
Zerg can also not hope hope to scope out the area because the terran can easily snipe overseers, and to boot, overseers are far slower than a ling/bane/muta army. The pursuit will be long over by the time the mine is safely avoided, or safely detonated.
Furthermore, the micro it takes for zerg to send a single unit ahead, or to soak up damage is considerably more difficult than the micro it takes for terran to stim and back up. This is exacerbated by the fact that the mines are invisible.
This becomes apparent when terran is pressuing zerg on 2 fronts with widow mine/bio. (See ret vs flash MLG Winter Championships game 1). The theoretical micro needed for zerg to overwhelm terran in that situation is many orders of magnitude more difficult than the micro needed for terran to overwhelm zerg, on account of the simultaneous address of burrowed widow mines in multiple locations.
Possible Solutions:
a) reduce widow mine splash damage to 25, or 25 + 15 mechanical or something. necessitating 2 hits to a kill zerglings/banelings. CD could be lowered to balance it out. This would not destroy the strategy, but would incur a greater cost from terran to achieve the same effect.
b) Have widow mines "root" (like swarm hosts do in the campaign) instead of burrow, making them much easier to avoid and deal with.
c) Have widow mines become visible when units are within a certain range (like a cloaking field or something), similar result to suggestion b.
d) Lower widow mine health, or movement speed, making it more difficult to get them in place.
Possible side effects: Widow lose their niche, and are not used. This would indicate that the nerf was too severe.
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EPT
