|
On March 17 2013 09:28 FeyFey wrote:
Besides that I am seeing Pros deal with the mines just fine, they blink dodge or split Roaches and also pull back in time. But because of this constant attention to their army, their macro suffers and the Terran gets ahead there.
terrans have to pay attention to their army 24/7 and macro like a boss at the same time while multitasking like a boss.
and you are saying, that macro from protoss and zerg suffers because they have to watch their army? because of the widow mine?
why should terran do so much more things at the same time and pay attention to their army, and z/p not?
real?
if terran has to pay attention 24/7, then toss and zerg should be forced to that too.
too many people are crying about balance right now instead of just waiting and thinking about new possible builds and things.
|
On March 17 2013 11:14 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 11:06 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 17 2013 09:49 m0ck wrote:On March 17 2013 09:29 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 17 2013 09:27 Tsubbi wrote:On March 17 2013 09:25 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 17 2013 09:12 m0ck wrote:
The biggest problem as I see it:
Terran almost inevitably begins the game with the stronger economy against both P and Z and when you combine that with terran being almost safe from harassment (widow-mines making aggression/movement on map risky), while P and Z are quite vulnerable to it, the game will be T favored. It results in most games being played out on terran terms.
With terran having improved quite a bit in the late-game (at least against Z), it's not really clear when Z is supposed to win. Protoss still have strong timings, but I've seen too little of the late-game to make an informed opinion. This is all false; even if a Terran player plays fully economic he's still quite behind an economically playing Zerg because of larva inject (if both players couldn't attack for the first 10 minutes Zerg would always be ahead). As for "early game safeness" Terran with widow mines, a situational unit that can only fire once every 40 seconds, has it no better than super queens and planetary nexus. no hes 100% right, might check income graphs of any high level hots tvz or tvp 100% false. Temporary boosts in mineral income don't make up for Zerg's ability to make 15 drones at once (in the context of the specific scenario we're talking about) and to have a 10-20 drone lead throughout the whole game simply because of the power of larva inject ; if you're denying that Zerg isn't ahead when both players aren't allowed to attack then you're being ludicrous. Well, both players ARE allowed to attack, and, because of a stronger early T game, Z has had to adopt by taking a later third, compared to WoL. Zerg was able to take thirds at abusively early times in WoL because of the immunity super queens gave them, so "not as fast as WoL" isn't a proper benchmark. Indeed. Zerg was able to play as greedy as possible up through 3 base by only making queens, lings, and drones. In literally seconds, Zerg could go from full economy to full army production. No matter what the Terran response, Zerg was ahead economically. The only exception is super fast 3 OC off 1 rax and no gas, which is done blind and is still behind the fastest Zerg 3 base, as well as punishable by a couple of all ins.
the fast third OC double ebay was exactly what killed 2 base muta style.
honestly I don't think anything is wrong with Zerg able to grab a fast third when terrans are able to grab a fast natural themselves. The pure ling queen drones style is punishable by the blueflamehellions build that MVP used against Life and succeeded a few times.
I think it's wrong if Terran is able to grab a faster 3rd than the zerg, such as the pre queen buff hellion opening and the now hots reaper build which is really good at shutting down early creep, denying third, harassing and scouting.
However, it is sort of balanced now by the new burrow roach early harass.
Previously with the hellion opening, a lot of ZvT was roach ling baneling all in, especially done by DRG, the game was too volatile to enjoy
|
What do you guys think of stargate openers vs Terran? Can it give the protoss a nice advantage if done correctly?
Oracles seem to be good vs standard terran openers and they can force ebay and 2 turrets,so 350 minerals not going to production.
Also some phoenix for map control,denying drops and supporting collosi later.
MC is doing this right now to Mvp.Have any pros actually tried to use this(as a proper macro build,not void ray all-ins)?
|
On March 17 2013 11:50 DifuntO wrote:
What do you guys think of stargate openers vs Terran? Can it give the protoss a nice advantage if done correctly?
Oracles seem to be good vs standard terran openers and they can force ebay and 2 turrets,so 350 minerals not going to production.
Also some phoenix for map control,denying drops and supporting collosi later.
MC is doing this right now to Mvp.Have any pros actually tried to use this(as a proper macro build,not void ray all-ins)?
not a pro, but im high masters/gm. [LaGaBstract #11 on NA right now] yes its viable. ive been opening oracles since the beta in pvt. im really lazy to write a guide & now anything i say will look like i took from MC lol. my build order is different though.
the oracles keep you safe from anything a terran can throw at you early game. 4 is the magic number. if terran opens mines you jsut wait for 4 oracles and they snipe mines before a shot is taken. terran needs two mines in the same range as the oracles to get a hit off. if they open bio they might shut it down, but i still get 4. this gives me map control, strong defense where i can do whatever i please, if that means taking an early third or doing something else.
the build order is pretty much
13 gate
15 double gas, load with 6 probes @ finish
17 pylon
17 cybernetics core (cut a probe to get core out at about 2:50 or dont cut and get it out by 3:10 or so, but you want it early for reapers usually.
@ 100% cyb core, stargate
@ 100/100 min/gas MSC (this is to defend the reapers, works well. most build only 1 and this scares it off. if they go for more reapers eventually you will have an oracle & nexus cannon)
@ 50/50 start warpgate research
@ 100% stargate, chronoboost oracle (this is your first oracle not spent on nexus. i think its 5 on nexus, then 6th on stargate, off head cant remember)
after second oracle you expand, about 5:30 mark. you make absolutely no gateway units. its just MSC & oracles
|
On March 17 2013 11:26 navy wrote:
Widow Mines
Problem:
It appears to me that widow mines are unreasonably strong in ZvT, as an advancing defensive front in particular, because zerg can not hope to safely pursue a fleeing army in the face of widow mines.
Zerg can also not hope hope to scope out the area because the terran can easily snipe overseers, and to boot, overseers are far slower than a ling/bane/muta army. The pursuit will be long over by the time the mine is safely avoided, or safely detonated.
Furthermore, the micro it takes for zerg to send a single unit ahead, or to soak up damage is considerably more difficult than the micro it takes for terran to stim and back up. This is exacerbated by the fact that the mines are invisible.
This becomes apparent when terran is pressuing zerg on 2 fronts with widow mine/bio. (See ret vs flash MLG Winter Championships game 1). The theoretical micro needed for zerg to overwhelm terran in that situation is many orders of magnitude more difficult than the micro needed for terran to overwhelm zerg, on account of the simultaneous address of burrowed widow mines in multiple locations.
Possible Solutions:
a) reduce widow mine splash damage to 25, or 25 + 15 mechanical or something. necessitating 2 hits to a kill zerglings/banelings. CD could be lowered to balance it out. This would not destroy the strategy, but would incur a greater cost from terran to achieve the same effect.
b) Have widow mines "root" (like swarm hosts do in the campaign) instead of burrow, making them much easier to avoid and deal with.
c) Have widow mines become visible when units are within a certain range (like a cloaking field or something), similar result to suggestion b.
d) Lower widow mine health, or movement speed, making it more difficult to get them in place.
Possible side effects: Widow lose their niche, and are not used. This would indicate that the nerf was too severe.
Yeah, it's difficult to change that unit without nerfing it into oblivion. It's so damn close to a Siege Tank that having it not shoot air would basically make it the same thing but reducing it's range or, or some similar change, may just have the unit fade into the abyss.
Damage is definitely one thing you could do but, since they're trying to make mech more viable vs. Protoss, if they nerf the damage they should make up for it with a damage buff vs. shields to offset the nerf.
|
On March 17 2013 10:34 Swimcito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:58 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 17 2013 07:51 Swimcito wrote:
I Think that Zerg as of right now have two OP things, Abduct from the Viper should not target Massive units, like Colossus and Thor, Period, it should if anything pull the viper towards the thor or colossus, it doesnt make any sence, No matter how strong you are, you cant pull something that is more massive than you while on the air, its just not possible. you feel abduct shouldn't be able to move massive units because... it's unrealistic? Balance is my main concern, the "realistic" aspect is just another point to further probe my point
you didn't make any other points about it
|
speed medivac and widow mines are just way to strong right now..
|
any balance notes on Hots?
|
Why are people not suggesting obvious balance fixes like making Ignite Afterburners an upgrade (whose cost, time, and tech tier can be adjusted), or just making widow mines more expensive?
|
We cant really discuss the balance of these sorts of things early. I have noticed that there are ways to deflect and defend these drops, but that requires reaction timing and catching this and making units and static defense accordingly (which would also prevent zergs from pooling 2-3k+ minerals late game and remaxing after an engagement vs Terran, which is something Terrans complain about as well).
Honestly, I think that the quick tech to medivacs in the early game should be rewarded by the speed boost and using it as an advantage over a low tech zerg. This isnt indefensible with queens, lings and maybe one spore or spine. In my opinion, the speed boost should be slowed down to the speed of a mutalisk. This would allow Mutas to be a sufficient zoning mechanism in the mid-game while the zerg gets comfortable, and would allow for the Mutalisks to do damage to medivacs retreating after an engagement (medivac retention is something that is complained about as well). vs Protoss, the balance wouldnt really change because phoenix, blink stalkers, warp-ins and photon overcharge are good at defending.
I dont think that the speed boost would be very good as a researchable upgrade. You would either have to put it on a tech lab, which delays early/mid game medivac production which is vital, or on the armory, which is too late in tech imo. Energy based (either fixed cost or over-time drain) would effect the main point of the medivac which is healing. 25 energy would be too much energy spent to get away, especially after spending time healing stimmed units.
Just my two cents, though.
|
|
|
They can keep the 4.25 movement speed after boost, but reduce the acceleration of the boost medivac to the same as the normal medivac. So it has to take a while until the medivac reaches 4.25 movement speed.
Because now the acceleration of boosted medivac is almost non-existent, it's obviously a little ridiculous.
|
On March 17 2013 14:41 larse wrote:
They can keep the 4.25 movement speed after boost, but reduce the acceleration of the boost medivac to the same as the normal medivac. So it has to take a while until the medivac reaches 4.25 movement speed.
Because now the acceleration of boosted medivac is almost non-existent, it's obviously a little ridiculous.
this is a great idea in my opinion!
I think other solutions have obvious flaws, making it an upgrade makes very little difference as its lategame when players have to defend against drops in tonnes of places that people are having the problem, therefore that would not solve this.
also if you make it cost energy now feedback, a great way of dealing with it loses some of its power.
This change would not be a huge nerf but it would mean that terran players would have to react 'immediately' to save the drop rather than the pretty large window they have now to pick up and leave. it would tip the risk vs reward balance of attempting a drop slightly more in favour of risk, as currently for good players they will nearly never lose a medivac.
|
On March 17 2013 15:13 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 14:41 larse wrote:
They can keep the 4.25 movement speed after boost, but reduce the acceleration of the boost medivac to the same as the normal medivac. So it has to take a while until the medivac reaches 4.25 movement speed.
Because now the acceleration of boosted medivac is almost non-existent, it's obviously a little ridiculous. this is a great idea in my opinion! I think other solutions have obvious flaws, making it an upgrade makes very little difference as its lategame when players have to defend against drops in tonnes of places that people are having the problem, therefore that would not solve this. also if you make it cost energy now feedback, a great way of dealing with it loses some of its power. This change would not be a huge nerf but it would mean that terran players would have to react 'immediately' to save the drop rather than the pretty large window they have now to pick up and leave. it would tip the risk vs reward balance of attempting a drop slightly more in favour of risk, as currently for good players they will nearly never lose a medivac.
Yep, my balance suggestions are usually very good  It's just that they are usually not the same one that Blizzard eventually takes
|
For those of you complaining about zerg being UP, remember that the only truely top tier zergs in this tourney were life and leenock. The toss and Terran players were much more stacked for the koreans, and the koreans are cleaning house. Will be interesting to see how far LIfe can get.
|
On March 17 2013 14:02 SergioCQH wrote:
Why are people not suggesting obvious balance fixes like making Ignite Afterburners an upgrade (whose cost, time, and tech tier can be adjusted), or just making widow mines more expensive?
Widow Mines:
For me, the issue is that they can come 2 at a time, and that they can come so early you won't have detection up in time (at least as Protoss).
Ignite Afterburners:
Making the cooldown longer would help a lot, I think. Then the Terran player has to decide if he/she wants to use it to go in or leave, which would give it a more strategical use.
|
A few points to bring up. First of all it's too early to cry imba about anything. A lot of people are crying about med evac boost, the fact is that the players that get map vision to spot drops, have units pre-positioned, make static defenses, and react quickly are shutting them down and winning. Watch Rain vs Jjakji or Life vs Polt at MLG. They did these things, they shut down drops. Rain used pylons and obs to spot drops, Life used ov's and creep spread, rain made a cannon at each base, Life made a spore and spine at each base (mostly), Rain kept 2 or 3 stalkers in his main (+warp ins), Life had some lings and a bane or 2 in his main. They both defended the drops easily using these simple techniques. Once rain got out templar to feed back he was able to move out, once Life got mutas he moved out.
There is nothing wrong with the medevac boost. If you do these basic things you will be fine. If you don't you will suffer. Changing the units has nothing to do with it. Not only were both of these players able to shut down the drops, but they were able to take almost no damage and kill enough medevacs , that once they pushed out on 3 base, they won. Games 2 and 5 of rain vs jjakji and Game 5 (and game 3 i think?) of life vs polt at MLG are great examples of this.
Also take a look in the spoiler below, it is a list of the top korean players by race. The stars indicate the ones at MLG. The foreigners all got destroyed so they are largely irrelevant because they lost to better players, balance is irrelevant in that. This list has Stephano, Thorzain, and Huk on it, because they all compete in Korea, they all got eliminated, are all foreigners and represent all 3 races. So they don't really change the ratio's.
+ Show Spoiler +
So we have 10 Terrans, 3 Zergs, and 7 protoss from that list who entered the round of 32 at MLG. The races left in the Ro8 at this point are 4 Terrans, 1 Zerg, and 3 protoss.
Pretty DAMN BALANCED IMO
Just keep in mind the 4 remaining terrans are spread evenly through these brackets. Every match in the Ro8 will be vs terran. So I would not be surprised to see 2 or 3 in the Ro4 or even a TvT finals.
This tournament had polt, bomber, MKP, MVP, Flash, Innovation, Taeja, and Thorzain. They were spread pretty evenly through the brackets at the ro32. I wouldn't be surprised if there was 3 terrans in the ro4, if this was WOL, with that kind of terran talent spread through the brackets like this.
I can honestly say, MLG is proving this game is wonderful, and pretty damn balanced at the top level. The better players, are playing better and winning.
HOTS is an amazing game, if they go around nerfing everything that people can't deal with because of their own unskilled play, this game is going to suck.
All the races have really strong abilities and units in hots. The players who are defending well against the new threats, and utilizing their races strengths are winning.
Guess what, the Number 1 ranked Terran, zerg and the number 2 ranked protoss from Korea are all still in the tourney. (the Number 1 toss creator, lost to Polt)
Blizzard has produced an amazingly BALANCED game in HOTS. It truly is a game I feel 100% being decided by skill and talent. Blizzard worked really hard, and got really lucky, I hope they don't change ANYTHING! If they do, I hope the changes are tiny adjustments. They have stated that they want to let things go for a while before they make any changes. I'm so grateful they are ignoring all the whine.
I hope if they do make adjustments they go with a 5% change and see how it goes. None of that drastic increasing range, taking away abilities/upgrades, huge dmg changes ect.
This game is so damn good, and SO much more balanced than WOL. WOL balance was horrible imo. I've filled these forums with posts complaining about it. But HOTS is everything starcraft should be, all the races can outplay their opponents and win early, mid or late game.
Please realize how lucky we are to have this game!
|
On March 17 2013 15:21 Dagan159 wrote:
For those of you complaining about zerg being UP, remember that the only truely top tier zergs in this tourney were life and leenock. The toss and Terran players were much more stacked for the koreans, and the koreans are cleaning house. Will be interesting to see how far LIfe can get.
But there were numerous showmatches MLG did as qualifiers where Zergs were throttled in those. Life and Leenock both qualified by being top 4 at the last MLG. Meaning that every Korean Zerg that tried to get into MLG was beaten in their showmatches. That seems a little absurd.
|
On March 17 2013 15:45 Reborn8u wrote:A few points to bring up. First of all it's too early to cry imba about anything. A lot of people are crying about med evac boost, the fact is that the players that get map vision to spot drops, have units pre-positioned, make static defenses, and react quickly are shutting them down and winning. Watch Rain vs Jjakji or Life vs Polt at MLG. They did these things, they shut down drops. Rain used pylons and obs to spot drops, Life used ov's and creep spread, rain made a cannon at each base, Life made a spore and spine at each base (mostly), Rain kept 2 or 3 stalkers in his main (+warp ins), Life had some lings and a bane or 2 in his main. They both defended the drops easily using these simple techniques. Once rain got out templar to feed back he was able to move out, once Life got mutas he moved out. There is nothing wrong with the medevac boost. If you do these basic things you will be fine. If you don't you will suffer. Changing the units has nothing to do with it. Not only were both of these players able to shut down the drops, but they were able to take almost no damage and kill enough medevacs , that once they pushed out on 3 base, they won. Games 2 and 5 of rain vs jjakji and Game 5 (and game 3 i think?) of life vs polt at MLG are great examples of this. Also take a look in the spoiler below, it is a list of the top korean players by race. The stars indicate the ones at MLG. The foreigners all got destroyed so they are largely irrelevant because they lost to better players, balance is irrelevant in that. This list has Stephano, Thorzain, and Huk on it, because they all compete in Korea, they all got eliminated, are all foreigners and represent all 3 races. So they don't really change the ratio's. + Show Spoiler +So we have 10 Terrans, 3 Zergs, and 7 protoss from that list who entered the round of 32 at MLG. The races left in the Ro8 at this point are 4 Terrans, 1 Zerg, and 3 protoss. Pretty DAMN BALANCED IMO Just keep in mind the 4 remaining terrans are spread evenly through these brackets. Every match in the Ro8 will be vs terran. So I would not be surprised to see 2 or 3 in the Ro4 or even a TvT finals. This tournament had polt, bomber, MKP, MVP, Flash, Innovation, Taeja, and Thorzain. They were spread pretty evenly through the brackets at the ro32. I wouldn't be surprised if there was 3 terrans in the ro4, if this was WOL, with that kind of terran talent spread through the brackets like this. I can honestly say, MLG is proving this game is wonderful, and pretty damn balanced at the top level. The better players, are playing better and winning. HOTS is an amazing game, if they go around nerfing everything that people can't deal with because of their own unskilled play, this game is going to suck. All the races have really strong abilities and units in hots. The players who are defending well against the new threats, and utilizing their races strengths are winning.
Your logic is flawed because 7 Korean Zergs attempted to qualify through the showmatches and were all beaten. That's why there's no Zergs at MLG, they all lost in the qualifiers!
Essentially, the Winter Championship played out like a 64 man tournament with the top 4 from the previous MLG getting a first round bye, and the entire first round was played online.
Now I tell you that Korean Zergs went 0-7 against their Korean non-zerg counterparts in the first round of the tournament. Does that sound balanced to you?
|
On March 17 2013 16:03 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:45 Reborn8u wrote:A few points to bring up. First of all it's too early to cry imba about anything. A lot of people are crying about med evac boost, the fact is that the players that get map vision to spot drops, have units pre-positioned, make static defenses, and react quickly are shutting them down and winning. Watch Rain vs Jjakji or Life vs Polt at MLG. They did these things, they shut down drops. Rain used pylons and obs to spot drops, Life used ov's and creep spread, rain made a cannon at each base, Life made a spore and spine at each base (mostly), Rain kept 2 or 3 stalkers in his main (+warp ins), Life had some lings and a bane or 2 in his main. They both defended the drops easily using these simple techniques. Once rain got out templar to feed back he was able to move out, once Life got mutas he moved out. There is nothing wrong with the medevac boost. If you do these basic things you will be fine. If you don't you will suffer. Changing the units has nothing to do with it. Not only were both of these players able to shut down the drops, but they were able to take almost no damage and kill enough medevacs , that once they pushed out on 3 base, they won. Games 2 and 5 of rain vs jjakji and Game 5 (and game 3 i think?) of life vs polt at MLG are great examples of this. Also take a look in the spoiler below, it is a list of the top korean players by race. The stars indicate the ones at MLG. The foreigners all got destroyed so they are largely irrelevant because they lost to better players, balance is irrelevant in that. This list has Stephano, Thorzain, and Huk on it, because they all compete in Korea, they all got eliminated, are all foreigners and represent all 3 races. So they don't really change the ratio's. + Show Spoiler +So we have 10 Terrans, 3 Zergs, and 7 protoss from that list who entered the round of 32 at MLG. The races left in the Ro8 at this point are 4 Terrans, 1 Zerg, and 3 protoss. Pretty DAMN BALANCED IMO Just keep in mind the 4 remaining terrans are spread evenly through these brackets. Every match in the Ro8 will be vs terran. So I would not be surprised to see 2 or 3 in the Ro4 or even a TvT finals. This tournament had polt, bomber, MKP, MVP, Flash, Innovation, Taeja, and Thorzain. They were spread pretty evenly through the brackets at the ro32. I wouldn't be surprised if there was 3 terrans in the ro4, if this was WOL, with that kind of terran talent spread through the brackets like this. I can honestly say, MLG is proving this game is wonderful, and pretty damn balanced at the top level. The better players, are playing better and winning. HOTS is an amazing game, if they go around nerfing everything that people can't deal with because of their own unskilled play, this game is going to suck. All the races have really strong abilities and units in hots. The players who are defending well against the new threats, and utilizing their races strengths are winning. Your logic is flawed because 7 Korean Zergs attempted to qualify through the showmatches and were all beaten. That's why there's no Zergs at MLG, they all lost in the qualifiers! Essentially, the Winter Championship played out like a 64 man tournament with the top 4 from the previous MLG getting a first round bye, and the entire first round was played online. Now I tell you that Korean Zergs went 0-7 against their Korean non-zerg counterparts in the first round of the tournament. Does that sound balanced to you?
I'll be flat out honest, A lot of Zergs from WOL didn't deserve their status/ranks. Not all of them however, some players like leenock, nestea ect were genius and played extremely well and deserve everything they've achieved. But A lot of Zergs who did well in WOL are going to fade away in HOTS.
They did bad because Zergs actually have to play the early and mid game now. They can't drone 3 bases to full saturation, while making no units or defensive structures and just use queens to stop everything that can slow them down. They can't just make a few lings and infestors and deny all forms of harass, then get BL infestor and collect an easy win.
It's a shock to a lot of zerg players, I know, but you actually have to outplay your opponent in the early and mid game to get ahead in the late game now. The zergs who realize this are the ones who will thrive in HOTS. The ones who make some static defense,the ones who have immaculate creep spread in spite of harassment, and good overlord placement, the zergs who can play fantastically with a wide variety of compositions, the zergs who utilize the tools and timings at their disposal will win. The zergs who can identify and exploit their chances to be aggressive in the early and mid game will thrive. All the rest will be gone.
Look how the zergs who made it the farthest played, and compare it to the zergs who got eliminated. It's night and day. Adapt or die. But if you think you can get an economic advantage by cutting every corner, every game, you are going to have a lot of dead drones.
The Kespa zergs aren't going to complain, they are just going to practice, and learn what the successful zergs are doing that they are not, especially the ones from BW. They have the fundamentals and mechanics to succeed. The rise of the Kespa Zergs is coming. Most of the zergs who came before them will soon be forgotten.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Plhii1D.png)
