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On March 17 2013 08:35 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 08:15 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:59 Belha wrote:On March 17 2013 07:38 Reborn8u wrote:On March 17 2013 07:32 Belha wrote:
Speedvacs are op in PvT. Hoping for the faster balance patch from blizz (knowing that they usually take a loooooong time to balance obvious imbalances). I was actually just thinking about this and made a post here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758¤tpage=6#103I think the key to defending these drops lies in the following areas; building placement, reaction time, pre postioning of units and defensive structures, and map vision. These are all skill and decision based things. Balance is not the issue when all of these things aren't being utilized properly. I just read ur post. Apreciated the the polite way to lay the arguments. Still, I'm sorry to disagree with most of them. First, WoL drops were not a problem, with the exception of very few maps for PvT, (never in TvZ due to creep mobility to defend). Now in Hots, speedvacs are unmatched in mobility for the P. Also, the very fast cooldown for the speed, plus no cost at all, make zero risk for the T in case of good P defense placement. It doesn't mather of the protoss has invested a lot into defending the drop timing, with afterburn, the drop is always safe to leave. No more drop baits, no more focus the medivacs in a a chase. While T is dropping, now the P will always lose material, and T can escape unpunished, either with P is well positioned or not. If the P is well positioned, then the T can pull back the drop, speed up, and join forces with some frontal force and outnumber the P front army (due to forces defending in main). If the P is not defending the drop, then time to gain material for T. So the result is that you either die to the drop because you played towards securing a third for the macro game, or you survive the drop but are considerably behind in the macro game. Either way, when the T uses drops, (always talking about top pro level) the T will be gaining more and more eco and suply leads as game (and drops) progresses. Now I will also politely disagree with you sir ;D First, in WoL drops were a problem before medevacs got a speed nerf. Speedvacs are not unmatched in mobility by protoss, (blink / recall / prism / phoenix?) Drops are not always safe to leave if you have a blink, phoenix, or feedback. Especially if these things are prepositioned. Using time warp with blink or phoenix will ensure their demise. I think with blink or feedback, pre positioned units, good building placement and good map vision (obs and pylons to spot drops) and perhaps a cannon per base (so widow mines are shut down) protoss can take a 3rd pretty early (obviously map dependent) Protoss can also use photon overcharge to assist in defense. While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall. See what I did there?  Ball is in your court Phoenix play is unviable for real PvT macro play(1). Recall? Afterburn and leave, or better, go join the front army while P's move as a turtle. Feedback will not be ready in time and cannot kill a medivac by their own in until lategame. (2) Obs for map vision is ok, but cannot change that the drop forces u to go to defend while the drop can leave+afterburn to the front while ur units are slow. All this while T is already droping his 3rd (9-10 min). Cannons are just useless to stop drops in like 90% of the maps beacuse it cannot cover space. The drop spots the cannon, leaves and either drops in other place, or drops aways from cannon and target it asap. Also cannons are expensive, specially when T is already taking the eco lead. (3) Rushing blink is dead sentence for aganist the most simple stim pressure at 8-9 min. (4) "While P is attacking, now the T will always lose material, and P can escape unpunished, either with T is well positioned or not, because of Recall." (5) Now, I have no problem about talking about PvT theory of you wanna discuss. But if you don't know the basics and timings of the match up for the P at higher level (points 1,2,3,4 and 5), then the discussion is pointless.
I'm glad you numbered your points (lol what).
(1) Pheonix play is viable currently, and mc played stargate vs mvp a fair bit today in MLG so I find it pretty funny that you posted this right beforehand (the word is 'inviable' btw).
2) You want to be able to defend drops with one feedback? l.o.l Feedback will be ready in time if you are going for templar play, and obviously you would have stalkers there as well to deal the rest of the damage.
3) Obs is the best tool you have for map vision vs drops.
The entire point of drops is to force protoss to defend so I have absolutely no idea what your point is here. And terran absolutely cannot be dropping a 3rd at 9-10 and have a tonne of medivacs at the same time, he will have 2 medivacs and that is simply just not that scary if he's taking a 3rd as well.
Cannons aren't great at stopping drops you're right for once! but since when should you be able to stop drops completely for 150 minerals? Cannons are great at stalling time/dealing damage to the units in the actual drop, you don't have to position the cannon to hit the medivac coming in, but position it to protect whatever you feel needs protecting (probes etc).
4) Absolutely, categorically wrong. This has never been the case and never will be.
Also i find it funny how you said this:
'But if you don't know the basics and timings of the match up for the P at higher level (points 1,2,3,4 and 5), then the discussion is pointless.'
but previously said:
'T is already droping his 3rd (9-10 min)'
and:
'stim pressure at 8-9 min'.
Neither of those are true nor plausible situations at a high level of play. Sure Terran could pressure with stim done at 8-9 minutes but there wont be medivacs. The timing is usually around 10:30 on most maps and varies in strength depending on how economically focused the terran chooses to be.
5)no idea how a quote becomes a point of yours.. but ok.
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ZvZ for 9 months - zergs are practicing more and playing better
all races winning again - horrible, pls nerf terran
forumzergs 
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Blizzard shouldnt make any changes for at least 6 months until we have had a few GSL's completed. If it turns out to be at the end of that nothing but TvT then changes should be made.
You cant balance this game on Foreigners, players like Thorzain and Lucifron, Stephano just don't have the skill set to play at the highest standard as been shown in the first 2 tournaments ( IEM \ MLG).
Watching 1 race and their fans have all the fun whilst the other 2 races have to "Buckle Up" will soon get boring, trust me.
Personally i think there should be no nerfs of any kind. Terran is in excellent shape at present with plenty of options. if needed I would like to see some buffs to the other 2 races core units ( Hydra and Stalker). What i wouldn't want to see is the band aid fix like what happened in WoL with the a unit like the Infestor holding the whole race together
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The problem of drops is not in the fact that it's easier to drop, it's in the fact that it's easier to escape.
This cause the terran to do unrisky 4 or 5 full medivacs drop, and force the zerg/toss to defend. The zerg/toss player can never go out because of the risk to be doom dropped.
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On March 17 2013 19:24 Topdoller wrote:
Blizzard shouldnt make any changes for at least 6 months until we have had a few GSL's completed. If it turns out to be at the end of that nothing but TvT then changes should be made.
You cant balance this game on Foreigners, players like Thorzain and Lucifron, Stephano just don't have the skill set to play at the highest standard as been shown in the first 2 tournaments ( IEM \ MLG).
Watching 1 race and their fans have all the fun whilst the other 2 races have to "Buckle Up" will soon get boring, trust me.
Personally i think there should be no nerfs of any kind. Terran is in excellent shape at present with plenty of options. if needed I would like to see some buffs to the other 2 races core units ( Hydra and Stalker). What i wouldn't want to see is the band aid fix like what happened in WoL with the a unit like the Infestor holding the whole race together
Yes, exactly what I was thinking. When things seem bleak for zerg and protoss after the first hots gsl changes should be made by buffing by core army units of toss and zerg, not by nerfing everything terran has and make it wol again.
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On March 17 2013 15:59 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:21 Dagan159 wrote:
For those of you complaining about zerg being UP, remember that the only truely top tier zergs in this tourney were life and leenock. The toss and Terran players were much more stacked for the koreans, and the koreans are cleaning house. Will be interesting to see how far LIfe can get. But there were numerous showmatches MLG did as qualifiers where Zergs were throttled in those. Life and Leenock both qualified by being top 4 at the last MLG. Meaning that every Korean Zerg that tried to get into MLG was beaten in their showmatches. That seems a little absurd.
Between the showmatches and this tournament hellbat-drops have been nerfed. Something you apparently forgot to take into account.
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On March 17 2013 19:24 Topdoller wrote:
Blizzard shouldnt make any changes for at least 6 months until we have had a few GSL's completed. If it turns out to be at the end of that nothing but TvT then changes should be made.
You cant balance this game on Foreigners, players like Thorzain and Lucifron, Stephano just don't have the skill set to play at the highest standard as been shown in the first 2 tournaments ( IEM \ MLG).
Watching 1 race and their fans have all the fun whilst the other 2 races have to "Buckle Up" will soon get boring, trust me.
Personally i think there should be no nerfs of any kind. Terran is in excellent shape at present with plenty of options. if needed I would like to see some buffs to the other 2 races core units ( Hydra and Stalker). What i wouldn't want to see is the band aid fix like what happened in WoL with the a unit like the Infestor holding the whole race together
marines?
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On March 17 2013 19:24 Topdoller wrote:
Blizzard shouldnt make any changes for at least 6 months until we have had a few GSL's completed. If it turns out to be at the end of that nothing but TvT then changes should be made.
You cant balance this game on Foreigners, players like Thorzain and Lucifron, Stephano just don't have the skill set to play at the highest standard as been shown in the first 2 tournaments ( IEM \ MLG).
Watching 1 race and their fans have all the fun whilst the other 2 races have to "Buckle Up" will soon get boring, trust me.
Personally i think there should be no nerfs of any kind. Terran is in excellent shape at present with plenty of options. if needed I would like to see some buffs to the other 2 races core units ( Hydra and Stalker). What i wouldn't want to see is the band aid fix like what happened in WoL with the a unit like the Infestor holding the whole race together
Stalkers are already fairly balanced. They're good early and mid game, and they fall off end game. Buffing them could hurt the early and mid game for the other races. A hydra buff could be okay I guess, though it might make it too powerful against Protoss.
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On March 17 2013 17:48 Glorfindel! wrote:
The fun thing about this thread is:
Zerg players realising something Terran has feels "to strong". Wants an instant nerf.
Zerg players having 5-range queens, instant fungals, 3/3 Infested Terrans and GG-lords for months telling Terrans "L2P, do this and do that".
I am a Terran player myself and currently feel like the Medivac seem to strong. However, if so is the case, I would gladly be fine with a nerf on it. If Terran becomes unstopable at the highest level, of course something has to be done.
However, its quite funny how many Terran players can agree on this, when so many Zerg players were totally blind and ignorant for the time of GG-lords+Infestor-domination.
Just quite ironic on how humble people can be in the world of SC2....
Lets see how this MLG turns out and perhaps make some slightly adjusments based on it.
Thats pretty standart for every race. Different races are not played by different kind of people.
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France13018 Posts
On March 17 2013 18:08 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:45 Reborn8u wrote:
So we have 10 Terrans, 3 Zergs, and 7 protoss from that list who entered the round of 32 at MLG. The races left in the Ro8 at this point are 4 Terrans, 1 Zerg, and 3 protoss.
Pretty DAMN BALANCED IMO
You do realise this tournament is not invitation based right? There were qualifications running for a while. So three Z entering the tournament means that Z is too weak... So the stats you're quoting prove the exact opposite of what you think they prove. Just to take an example (that dont prove anything in itself), look at DRG vs Jjakji, with terran winning 3-0. He didnt win shit since his gsl championship and fell into code B. In wol he would never ever have taken a single map from DRG. At some point in the ro32 i remember day9 saying that appart from thorzain, not a single terran lost a pvt or zvt set yet :D
That doesn't prove that zerg IS too weak. That might prove that zerg was too weak, before the hellbat drop nerf, or that zergs didn't have time to fully practice HotS because they were actually winning on WoL.
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On March 17 2013 18:08 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:45 Reborn8u wrote:
So we have 10 Terrans, 3 Zergs, and 7 protoss from that list who entered the round of 32 at MLG. The races left in the Ro8 at this point are 4 Terrans, 1 Zerg, and 3 protoss.
Pretty DAMN BALANCED IMO
You do realise this tournament is not invitation based right? There were qualifications running for a while. So three Z entering the tournament means that Z is too weak... So the stats you're quoting prove the exact opposite of what you think they prove. Just to take an example (that dont prove anything in itself), look at DRG vs Jjakji, with terran winning 3-0. He didnt win shit since his gsl championship and fell into code B. In wol he would never ever have taken a single map from DRG. At some point in the ro32 i remember day9 saying that appart from thorzain, not a single terran lost a pvt or zvt set yet :D
So how is it againt that we have one non Korean Terran in tournament?
Does it mean that Blizzard failed again to adjust race difficulty to make game balanced across all pro levels?
Also in ro32 Korean Terrans played only foreigners, i know some people used to foreign Zergs beating Koreans consistlenty but luckily seems like we have this period behind us.
edit: Jjakji beat DrG 3:2 no 3:0
Also we had Polt Creator in 1/32, my bad.
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On March 17 2013 19:27 Insoleet wrote:
The problem of drops is not in the fact that it's easier to drop, it's in the fact that it's easier to escape.
This cause the terran to do unrisky 4 or 5 full medivacs drop, and force the zerg/toss to defend. The zerg/toss player can never go out because of the risk to be doom dropped.
What do you think of boost only increasing the max speed of the medivac and not the acceleration of it, possibly even extending the duration of it slightly so that it still traveled the same distance while boosted? It would still help Terrans escape and run blockades but wouldn't be such a get out of jail free card anymore.
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Stop crying about speed vacs......what else does Terran have?
We don't have easy a move units that are strong, ilke Z and P....our AoE damage from tank does friendly fire, which is extremely annoying.
Ah...how good would it be if baneling does friendly fire...and colossi as well....muahahahaha...
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On March 17 2013 20:48 Swordland wrote:
Stop crying about speed vacs......what else does Terran have?
We don't have easy a move units that are strong, ilke Z and P....our AoE damage from tank does friendly fire, which is extremely annoying.
Ah...how good would it be if baneling does friendly fire...and colossi as well....muahahahaha...
Baneling does do FF.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
All this talking about balance based on one tournament is so stupid. The sample size is too small. There were not more than three games on equal footing for any matchup so far during this MLG... go ahead, count, if you don't believe me.
Zerg might or might not be underpowered but there is no way to tell. There were a lot of Zergs but Bly, Killer, Suppy, Sen, Vibe, Gowser are hardly a match against the High level Korean T and P all star team that is at this MLG.
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On March 17 2013 21:00 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 20:48 Swordland wrote:
Stop crying about speed vacs......what else does Terran have?
We don't have easy a move units that are strong, ilke Z and P....our AoE damage from tank does friendly fire, which is extremely annoying.
Ah...how good would it be if baneling does friendly fire...and colossi as well....muahahahaha... Baneling does do FF.
no it doesnt.
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On March 17 2013 21:00 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 20:48 Swordland wrote:
Stop crying about speed vacs......what else does Terran have?
We don't have easy a move units that are strong, ilke Z and P....our AoE damage from tank does friendly fire, which is extremely annoying.
Ah...how good would it be if baneling does friendly fire...and colossi as well....muahahahaha... Baneling does do FF.
Lol. No. Banelings do not do friendly fire.
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On March 17 2013 20:48 Swordland wrote:
Stop crying about speed vacs......what else does Terran have?
We don't have easy a move units that are strong, ilke Z and P....our AoE damage from tank does friendly fire, which is extremely annoying.
Ah...how good would it be if baneling does friendly fire...and colossi as well....muahahahaha...
Yeah, sure. Terran is the hardest race and we should salute every terran because they decided to be
martyrs just so we can have an equal racial distribution!
Most terrans are probably watching their win percentage rise higher and higher and thinks to themselves "Well, I must be THAT good!".
I don't want medivacs nerfed, they're fun to watch and obviously top korean protosses can handle them. The problem to me is that on a lower level, players wont have the same map awareness, splitting skills and so on to handle these new medivacs so the game will probably be imbalanced favoring terrans in lower play (like below master?) and the easy answer is "lol l2p, MC can beat this" but should the game ONLY be enjoyable and fair to top gamers who devote their whole time to this? Shouldn't I, as a college student, be able to play this game and have a fair shot in every match up?
I'm currently in a weird situation where pvt brings down my mmr so low that I easily beat the protosses and zergs. I am currentyl around 70 - 80% in pvp and pvz and about 30% in pvt.
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On March 17 2013 21:03 Fenrax wrote:
All this talking about balance based on one tournament is so stupid. The sample size is too small. There were not more than three games on equal footing for any matchup so far during this MLG... go ahead, count, if you don't believe me.
Zerg might or might not be underpowered but there is no way to tell. There were a lot of Zergs but Bly, Killer, Suppy, Sen, Vibe, Gowser are hardly a match against the High level Korean T and P all star team that is at this MLG.
For example Sen vs, Parting game 4.
Sen 200 supply, 80+ drones, 3 bases (hydra/roach/curruptor)
Parting 150 supply, 40+ drones, 2 bases
+ Show Spoiler +Sen still lost.
Maybe it's not really related to specific hots units balance, but it's just ridiculous overall, how 2 base toss crushes 3 base maxed zerg.
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Most terrans are probably watching their win percentage rise higher and higher and thinks to themselves "Well, I must be THAT good!".
MMR keeps it at 50% for 99.99% of the players.
The problem to me is that on a lower level, players wont have the same map awareness, splitting skills and so on to handle these new medivacs so the game will probably be imbalanced favoring terrans in lower play (like below master?) and the easy answer is "lol l2p, MC can beat this" but should the game ONLY be enjoyable and fair to top gamers who devote their whole time to this? Shouldn't I, as a college student, be able to play this game and have a fair shot in every match up?
I fully agree with this, but that does work two ways. We had enough nerfs to terran with as reason: lol MKP can do that bio micro vs toss so l2p. Meanwhile for many average terran players it pretty much came down to beating the toss before 15 minutes or it was gg. But looking at some posts here people want to balance it for literally the best 10 players in the world. So if a very good player shows up as zerg we should nerf zerg, and when he switches to LoL we should boost zerg again?
Of course I dont want it to be balanced for gold players only and not having it balanced on the higher levels, but at the same time imo it also shouldnt only be balanced for the top of the pro players.
Regarding speed boost, imo it is a very nice mechanic, also for getting out. Its a nice boost to drop play, and that could use a boost. And the ability to gtfo with your army (well the part you can load in your medivacs) is nice too, since it isn't a risk free escape. At MLG I saw plenty of medivacs being pulled back by vipers or cut off by air units. That said, I do think currently the penalty involved with speed boost is too small. Either make it cost energy or a much larger time between boosts, so it isn't a matter of when in doubt, speed boost.
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EPT
