EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 396
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FrozenProbe
Italy276 Posts
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On March 17 2013 20:48 Swordland wrote: I don't want medivacs nerfed, they're fun to watch and obviously top korean protosses can handle them. The problem to me is that on a lower level, players wont have the same map awareness, splitting skills and so on to handle these new medivacs so the game will probably be imbalanced favoring terrans in lower play (like below master?) and the easy answer is "lol l2p, MC can beat this" but should the game ONLY be enjoyable and fair to top gamers who devote their whole time to this? Shouldn't I, as a college student, be able to play this game and have a fair shot in every match up? Sou are saying that Terran will be stronger on lower skill level? So why we have one non Korean Terran in whole tournament Also why is Terran again least represented race in every league above silver http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all? They surely dominate on non Koean Pro level. | ||
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KingAce
United States471 Posts
For some reason Blizzard identified that the reason drops weren't being utilized had something to do with their lack of speed. At one point even buffing their healing ability. The problem as I saw it was fungal growth vs air. That when instantly cast shut down all air tech for any race. That was nerfed however, so this medivac buff doesn't compute. Terran drops have always been strong. All the way back in BW. If there's a terran here that can justify the buff plz do. The widow mine shoots air. It was stupid initially when first presented and now we get to explore it's stupidity even further after release. Terran didn't required more anti air. The race has the best ground to air defenses in the game. I recommend that if the speed boost is to be kept in the game. The medivac health should be dropped to 100. Widow mines shouldn't shoot air. That's too much map control for my taste. They already function as scouts, and early detectors. For a race that has sensor towers and scans. Why take pot shots at harassing fleets too? | ||
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gamerdude12345
Korea (South)378 Posts
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CikaZombi
Serbia630 Posts
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Koesader
Netherlands424 Posts
On March 17 2013 21:54 KingAce wrote: + Show Spoiler + What I find amusing is that there was never any reason to buff or nerf medivacs. There were problems with the game but that wasn't it. Protoss always had a difficult time defending air harass. And medivacs would still escape stalkers in WoL, even with blink. For some reason Blizzard identified that the reason drops weren't being utilized had something to do with their lack of speed. At one point even buffing their healing ability. The problem as I saw it was fungal growth vs air. That when instantly cast shut down all air tech for any race. That was nerfed however, so this medivac buff doesn't compute. Terran drops have always been strong. All the way back in BW. If there's a terran here that can justify the buff plz do. The widow mine shoots air. It was stupid initially when first presented and now we get to explore it's stupidity even further after release. Terran didn't required more anti air. The race has the best ground to air defenses in the game. I recommend that if the speed boost is to be kept in the game. The medivac health should be dropped to 100. Widow mines shouldn't shoot air. That's too much map control for my taste. They already function as scouts, and early detectors. For a race that has sensor towers and scans. Why take pot shots at harassing fleets too? Drops were used less and less to the end of WoL, mech aa without mines was lackluster, mines don't detect. Yea I totally took the bait :/ | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On March 17 2013 21:26 ALPINA wrote: For example Sen vs, Parting game 4. Sen 200 supply, 80+ drones, 3 bases (hydra/roach/curruptor) Parting 150 supply, 40+ drones, 2 bases + Show Spoiler + Sen still lost. Maybe it's not really related to specific hots units balance, but it's just ridiculous overall, how 2 base toss crushes 3 base maxed zerg. so there was 120 food of lair tech zerg army vs 110 food of protoss, and protoss won????! no way! yeah nerf protoss! thanks for pointing this out man, seriously. | ||
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Swordland
232 Posts
On March 17 2013 21:37 FrozenProbe wrote: terran has mass recall now, just 6 medivacs and "warp" your entire army in the opponent main base. I know that terrans really believe in their skill, but you know.. they're just the most bragging people in the world. Its ok...you can admit......why is it that the only people who have wrist problems are terrans? Because we don;t have strong a move units. Other races take skill too of course. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On March 17 2013 22:29 Swordland wrote: Its ok...you can admit......why is it that the only people who have wrist problems are terrans? Because we don;t have strong a move units. Other races take skill too of course. this comment is really bad haha ^^ I think speed medivacs are retarded, it's just way too much. reduce the speed, make it cost 50 energy, whatever. the move speed in - do damage - speed out is just stupid, and every terran (yes I'm terran) should be fine admitting that. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On March 17 2013 21:26 ALPINA wrote: For example Sen vs, Parting game 4. Sen 200 supply, 80+ drones, 3 bases (hydra/roach/curruptor) Parting 150 supply, 40+ drones, 2 bases + Show Spoiler + Sen still lost. Maybe it's not really related to specific hots units balance, but it's just ridiculous overall, how 2 base toss crushes 3 base maxed zerg. That is horrible game to prove your point. It's not fair to say 2 base toss crushes 3 base maxed zerg. That was a 20minute chess match. Sen did not use all the time he bought himself. He should have made more spines, he should have gotten swarm host, or did some kind of counter harass. The fact is that parting is one of the best 2 base all in players in the world (MC may be the best imo) and Partings attack sat outside sen's 3rd for more than 10 minutes, unable to break him.Parting was extremely close to losing the game flat out when his first 2 attacks failed to take down the 3rd. It was EXTREMELY close, in NO WAY would any reasonable person look at that game and conclude "2 base protoss crushes 3 base zerg" That was a very specific situation. Drawing a conclusion that broad from that game is stupid. If they replayed that game, sen could hold. On March 17 2013 17:20 Ercster wrote: The first game you linked Rain had to micro his colossus, and he was being dropped at both his main and natural so he had to multitask to defend those. Holy crap he had to retreat a colosuss because stuff was attacking it, I think my grandma could handle that micro. He had to use his main army to crush the drop at his nat, thats some serious multitasking right there, lol. Did you fail to notice how freakin easy he shut that double drop down? Did you see how ALL of the terran units, and medevacs died doing those drops, which then allowed toss to push across the map and win? Yea, that happened in both games. Guess what, if a terran doesn't have defensive structures, units pre positioned, and good map vision/scouting they will get rolled by oracles or muta. MED EVACS ARE FINE THE WAY THEY ARE! The races are all really balanced. Let me repeat what many of the BL infestor zergs have been telling toss and terran for the last YEAR of WOL. "L2p, innovate" When we see zerg and toss making all the right decisions/planning and still losing to drops, or widow mines, then there is a problem. But the players who are making the right decisions, and preparing, are shutting down the drops, killing off the medevacs, and winning. | ||
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Nourek
Germany188 Posts
On March 17 2013 15:21 Dagan159 wrote: For those of you complaining about zerg being UP, remember that the only truely top tier zergs in this tourney were life and leenock. The toss and Terran players were much more stacked for the koreans, and the koreans are cleaning house. Will be interesting to see how far LIfe can get. That might be related to Korean Zergs having a 25% winrate in the qualifier round. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On March 17 2013 23:03 Nourek wrote: That might be related to Korean Zergs having a 25% winrate in the qualifier round. You mean before they nerfed hell bats drops? Which DOMINATED TvZ in the qualifier round?? | ||
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Sadist
United States7310 Posts
On March 17 2013 21:54 KingAce wrote: What I find amusing is that there was never any reason to buff or nerf medivacs. There were problems with the game but that wasn't it. Protoss always had a difficult time defending air harass. And medivacs would still escape stalkers in WoL, even with blink. For some reason Blizzard identified that the reason drops weren't being utilized had something to do with their lack of speed. At one point even buffing their healing ability. The problem as I saw it was fungal growth vs air. That when instantly cast shut down all air tech for any race. That was nerfed however, so this medivac buff doesn't compute. Terran drops have always been strong. All the way back in BW. If there's a terran here that can justify the buff plz do. The widow mine shoots air. It was stupid initially when first presented and now we get to explore it's stupidity even further after release. Terran didn't required more anti air. The race has the best ground to air defenses in the game. I recommend that if the speed boost is to be kept in the game. The medivac health should be dropped to 100. Widow mines shouldn't shoot air. That's too much map control for my taste. They already function as scouts, and early detectors. For a race that has sensor towers and scans. Why take pot shots at harassing fleets too? No they werent. A toss dedicated to taking 3 bases slowly was basically impossible to drop barring some glaring fuckup by them. Newer maps also seemed anti drop play because mains were easy to defend and there were no paths to expos to exploit. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
On March 17 2013 19:58 Poopi wrote: That doesn't prove that zerg IS too weak. That might prove that zerg was too weak, before the hellbat drop nerf, or that zergs didn't have time to fully practice HotS because they were actually winning on WoL. exactly that. Lot of mid-level foreign zerg doing it and not many top korean zergs : that's because top zerg were actually training and wining under WoL ^^ So, now, if mid-level foreign zerg get smahsed by top-tier Korean Terans, it's not an imbalance sign but instead a signe of good balance =). Top korean should smash mid-tier foreigner in a correct state of the game. | ||
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Uni1987
Netherlands642 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On March 17 2013 22:07 gamerdude12345 wrote: What is everyone's opinion on ZvZ right now? Specifically the mid-game point with mass mutas. So far from watching streams it's all muta vs muta and the spore crawler buff didn't exactly do much to change it. I think blizzard will give a buff to the hydralisk or fungal projectile speed to help stop muta domination in ZvZ (hopefully the hydra buff). Another thing to consider about Mutas in ZvZ is that if you go Muta and your opponent doesn't.... you get to use swarm hosts which are great against everything on the ground. Muta > swarm host transition against someone who went hydra/infestor is very good. So personally I won't ever not go Muta even if hydras are buffed. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/100021-mc-vs-mvp-game-3-round-of-16-mlg-dallas-2013 It doesn't matter if you play protoss, zerg, or terran. If you don't prepare properly for oracles, drop play or muta, you will get rolled. BALANCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. MVP should have had a missile turret at each base (or a viking), and perhaps even a sensor tower. In that game, MVP didn't prepare properly, he got rolled. 20 marines alone cannot stop 4 oracles. Zergs should have ovies placed to spot incoming harass, a handful of units at each base and 1 spine and a 1 spore at each base. Protoss should have obs to spot incoming harass, a cannon at each base, and a few stalkers or a templar at each base. If ANY race does not have vision, does not have defensive structures, does not have units in position, air harass from any race will crush them. If they do have these things, they will crush air harass. There is no balancing needed here. PLAY BETTER. | ||
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MorowZ
Canada56 Posts
Why is this a problem? Because in my opinion, terran was already the most micro intensive race out there. For spectators, the buff was decent I suppose; multi-pronged harassment is a great aspect of TvZ and PvT, and they wanted to encourage that sort of play. But it does nothing to correct the already largely regressive distribution of terrans (according to league) in sc2 that reflects a higher skill curve relative to the other races. Top Korean terrans will be able to use the new drops to their fullest advantage and it will seem OP. And at that level of play, it well very may be. Korean terrans have always been able to dominate because they are able to make the fullest use of the micro-intensive tools and multi-task inherent to the terran race. Give them another tool like this, and you make terran stronger at the highest level, while the bottom 80% of terran users will continue to suffer. I'm all for changes that make the game "harder" to play and make it require more skill, while at the same time being good for spectators, but I'm not sure the medivac boost was the right way to go around this. Instead, I think Blizzard should have focused more on something they were promising: making mech more viable (especially PvT). People love to see seige-mech play. It rewards tactical decision making and strategy whereas bio rewards micro (in a very broad sense). I suspect buffing mech would also even out the regressive distribution of terrans: A-moving into a well-positioned mech army should be suicide and lower league players would have a harder time against terran. | ||
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EvanC
Canada130 Posts
The new Medivacs allow Muta-style 'you cannot leave your base' harassment, without nearly an equivalent investment. We are seeing Terrans hide Medivacs, and when the Zerg army moves out, the Medivac swoops in and drops 8 marines. As soon as something runs back to defend, the Medivacs pick up and speed off. This reminds me a LOT of good Mutalisk play, and a lot of Zerg strategies are anchored around this kind of play. The problem is primarily the gas investment required to achieve this kind of 'contain-through-harassment' position in the game. For Zerg, it's a HUGE gas investment: 800/800. For Terran, 8 marines and one medivac cost 500/100. That's the best way I can put it. It's not that Medivac speed is 'imbalanced' in itself, it's just that position it puts the Terran in ability to harass is far beyond of the gas investment that was put into it. | ||
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TheZanthex
United States144 Posts
On March 17 2013 23:52 EvanC wrote: Here's the problem, the best way that I can put it. The new Medivacs allow Muta-style 'you cannot leave your base' harassment, without nearly an equivalent investment. We are seeing Terrans hide Medivacs, and when the Zerg army moves out, the Medivac swoops in and drops 8 marines. As soon as something runs back to defend, the Medivacs pick up and speed off. This reminds me a LOT of good Mutalisk play, and a lot of Zerg strategies are anchored around this kind of play. The problem is primarily the gas investment required to achieve this kind of 'contain-through-harassment' position in the game. For Zerg, it's a HUGE gas investment: 800/800. For Terran, 8 marines and one medivac cost 500/100. That's the best way I can put it. It's not that Medivac speed is 'imbalanced' in itself, it's just that position it puts the Terran in ability to harass is far beyond of the gas investment that was put into it. I never really thought of it that way, but it makes sense. The playstyle centralized about the harassment puts the Terran in such a commanding position. Maybe Zerg just needs to quit cutting corners and put down more static D? I'm not sure about the solution considering in high (ish) diamond there aren't a whole lot of drops still. | ||
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