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On July 19 2012 02:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 02:47 iky43210 wrote:
to be fair TvP isn't that much better either. You'll see the same TvZ problem if somehow blizzard buff protoss early and mid game and protoss can safely enter late game all the time.
terran t3 just sucks TvP is fine if you have good fundamentals and good micro. It's definitely harder for Terrans at sub high Masters level, but at the highest level it's completely balanced, though a bit stale.
No its not. Terran cannot trade cost efficiently against zealot/archon/colossi armies. Lategame is a joke.
Absolutely hilarious though how you keep saying this while complaining about zerg being OP.
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On July 19 2012 02:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 02:47 iky43210 wrote:
to be fair TvP isn't that much better either. You'll see the same TvZ problem if somehow blizzard buff protoss early and mid game and protoss can safely enter late game all the time.
terran t3 just sucks TvP is fine if you have good fundamentals and good micro. It's definitely harder for Terrans at sub high Masters level, but at the highest level it's completely balanced, though a bit stale.
no its not. late game TvP is far from balance. The longer the game goes on, the worst it comes for terran. Zealots only becomes tougher and tougher to kill while colossus and templar lives just long enough for their terrible aoe dmg to clean off the ground army.
Worst part is you're never going to be able to reinforce faster than protoss. With a warp prism/pylon and a bank, the minute he loses supply he will be warping in units. You might be able to beat protoss not paying attention, but if he properly splits his HT, or hide them in warp prism you're going to lose on the late game engagement
Protoss just have superior late game army they can invest and stock up in. Terran are still stuck with T2 because T3 just simply isn't worth making
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On July 19 2012 02:54 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 02:50 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 02:47 iky43210 wrote:
to be fair TvP isn't that much better either. You'll see the same TvZ problem if somehow blizzard buff protoss early and mid game and protoss can safely enter late game all the time.
terran t3 just sucks TvP is fine if you have good fundamentals and good micro. It's definitely harder for Terrans at sub high Masters level, but at the highest level it's completely balanced, though a bit stale. no its not. late game TvP is far from balance. The longer the game goes on, the worst it comes for terran. Zealots only becomes tougher and tougher to kill while colossus and templar lives just long enough for their terrible aoe dmg to clean off the ground army. Worst part is you're never going to be able to reinforce faster than protoss. With a warp prism/pylon and a bank, the minute he loses supply he will be warping in units. You might be able to beat protoss not paying attention, but if he properly splits his HT, or hide them in warp prism you're going to lose on the late game engagement Protoss just have superior late game army they can invest and stock up in. Terran are still stuck with T2 because T3 just simply isn't worth making
Max vs max scenario with lots of Ghosts and Vikings is actually good for Terran. Dunno what you're talking about. Watch top Terrans play more. Matchup hasn't been problematic for awhile now.
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On July 19 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 02:54 iky43210 wrote:On July 19 2012 02:50 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 02:47 iky43210 wrote:
to be fair TvP isn't that much better either. You'll see the same TvZ problem if somehow blizzard buff protoss early and mid game and protoss can safely enter late game all the time.
terran t3 just sucks TvP is fine if you have good fundamentals and good micro. It's definitely harder for Terrans at sub high Masters level, but at the highest level it's completely balanced, though a bit stale. no its not. late game TvP is far from balance. The longer the game goes on, the worst it comes for terran. Zealots only becomes tougher and tougher to kill while colossus and templar lives just long enough for their terrible aoe dmg to clean off the ground army. Worst part is you're never going to be able to reinforce faster than protoss. With a warp prism/pylon and a bank, the minute he loses supply he will be warping in units. You might be able to beat protoss not paying attention, but if he properly splits his HT, or hide them in warp prism you're going to lose on the late game engagement Protoss just have superior late game army they can invest and stock up in. Terran are still stuck with T2 because T3 just simply isn't worth making Max vs max scenario with lots of Ghosts and Vikings is actually good for Terran. Dunno what you're talking about. Watch top Terrans play more. Matchup hasn't been problematic for awhile now.
"Max vs max scenario with lots of colossi and a mothership is actually pretty good for protoss. Dunno what you're talking about. Watch top protoss play more PvZ. Matchup hasn't been problematic for a while now."
While ignoring all the underlying problems. This isn't arguing.
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On July 19 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 02:54 iky43210 wrote:On July 19 2012 02:50 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 02:47 iky43210 wrote:
to be fair TvP isn't that much better either. You'll see the same TvZ problem if somehow blizzard buff protoss early and mid game and protoss can safely enter late game all the time.
terran t3 just sucks TvP is fine if you have good fundamentals and good micro. It's definitely harder for Terrans at sub high Masters level, but at the highest level it's completely balanced, though a bit stale. no its not. late game TvP is far from balance. The longer the game goes on, the worst it comes for terran. Zealots only becomes tougher and tougher to kill while colossus and templar lives just long enough for their terrible aoe dmg to clean off the ground army. Worst part is you're never going to be able to reinforce faster than protoss. With a warp prism/pylon and a bank, the minute he loses supply he will be warping in units. You might be able to beat protoss not paying attention, but if he properly splits his HT, or hide them in warp prism you're going to lose on the late game engagement Protoss just have superior late game army they can invest and stock up in. Terran are still stuck with T2 because T3 just simply isn't worth making Max vs max scenario with lots of Ghosts and Vikings is actually good for Terran. Dunno what you're talking about. Watch top Terrans play more. Matchup hasn't been problematic for awhile now.
maybe you should watch top terran play more often. They lose so badly in the very late game engagement it isn't even funny
Though probably our definition of late game is very different. Not many TvP ever hit the late game department anyway
not only are viking and ghosts dead weight supply, you're not going to realistically stop every templar from storming or kill colossus fast enough for them to clean up your marines, add in zealots, archons, or even a mothership you can just gg when late game hits and protoss reaches their optimal composition.
TvP is exactly like TvZ late game, except protoss is vulerable early and mid game where terran can get a ledge on them
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On July 19 2012 03:09 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 02:54 iky43210 wrote:On July 19 2012 02:50 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 02:47 iky43210 wrote:
to be fair TvP isn't that much better either. You'll see the same TvZ problem if somehow blizzard buff protoss early and mid game and protoss can safely enter late game all the time.
terran t3 just sucks TvP is fine if you have good fundamentals and good micro. It's definitely harder for Terrans at sub high Masters level, but at the highest level it's completely balanced, though a bit stale. no its not. late game TvP is far from balance. The longer the game goes on, the worst it comes for terran. Zealots only becomes tougher and tougher to kill while colossus and templar lives just long enough for their terrible aoe dmg to clean off the ground army. Worst part is you're never going to be able to reinforce faster than protoss. With a warp prism/pylon and a bank, the minute he loses supply he will be warping in units. You might be able to beat protoss not paying attention, but if he properly splits his HT, or hide them in warp prism you're going to lose on the late game engagement Protoss just have superior late game army they can invest and stock up in. Terran are still stuck with T2 because T3 just simply isn't worth making Max vs max scenario with lots of Ghosts and Vikings is actually good for Terran. Dunno what you're talking about. Watch top Terrans play more. Matchup hasn't been problematic for awhile now. maybe you should watch top terran play more often. They lose so badly in the very late game engagement it isn't even funny Though probably our definition of late game is very different. Not many TvP ever hit the late game department anyway not only are viking and ghosts dead weight supply, you're not going to realistically stop every templar from storming or kill colossus fast enough for them to clean up your marines, add in zealots, archons, or even a mothership you can just gg when late game hits and protoss reaches their optimal composition. TvP is exactly like TvZ late game, except protoss is vulerable early and mid game where terran can get a ledge on them
Then why does MKP say he wants to play against Protoss because he's confident he can outmacro them? How did he beat Parting?
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On July 19 2012 03:21 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 03:09 iky43210 wrote:On July 19 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 02:54 iky43210 wrote:On July 19 2012 02:50 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 02:47 iky43210 wrote:
to be fair TvP isn't that much better either. You'll see the same TvZ problem if somehow blizzard buff protoss early and mid game and protoss can safely enter late game all the time.
terran t3 just sucks TvP is fine if you have good fundamentals and good micro. It's definitely harder for Terrans at sub high Masters level, but at the highest level it's completely balanced, though a bit stale. no its not. late game TvP is far from balance. The longer the game goes on, the worst it comes for terran. Zealots only becomes tougher and tougher to kill while colossus and templar lives just long enough for their terrible aoe dmg to clean off the ground army. Worst part is you're never going to be able to reinforce faster than protoss. With a warp prism/pylon and a bank, the minute he loses supply he will be warping in units. You might be able to beat protoss not paying attention, but if he properly splits his HT, or hide them in warp prism you're going to lose on the late game engagement Protoss just have superior late game army they can invest and stock up in. Terran are still stuck with T2 because T3 just simply isn't worth making Max vs max scenario with lots of Ghosts and Vikings is actually good for Terran. Dunno what you're talking about. Watch top Terrans play more. Matchup hasn't been problematic for awhile now. maybe you should watch top terran play more often. They lose so badly in the very late game engagement it isn't even funny Though probably our definition of late game is very different. Not many TvP ever hit the late game department anyway not only are viking and ghosts dead weight supply, you're not going to realistically stop every templar from storming or kill colossus fast enough for them to clean up your marines, add in zealots, archons, or even a mothership you can just gg when late game hits and protoss reaches their optimal composition. TvP is exactly like TvZ late game, except protoss is vulerable early and mid game where terran can get a ledge on them Then why does MKP say he wants to play against Protoss because he's confident he can outmacro them? How did he beat Parting?
mind game. And also your example doesn't really mean much
interesting fact, mkp won MLG against parting 2-1, where 2 of the games were early or mid game enders, and MKP lost fashionably in game 2, the only game that reached late game.
Same thing happened in the controversial GSTL regame. In fact, I can't recall a time where MKP has beat parting in a late game TvP
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Everyone that claim Terran can win lategame in TvP can you please post a few pro replays that showcase this? I always get totally smashed in 200 vs 200 engagements but that might be me playing it wrong.
I would like to see replays containing the following:
- Terran got 200 food MMMVG
- Protoss got 200 food Zealot/Stalker/Colossus/HT
- Terran win a engagement without the Protoss fucking up
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Hey guys! I wanted to post this somewhere on TL
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance
It's a show hosted by Penny Arcade that discusses game design and principles, this episode mentions starcraft several times and has a lot to do with the nature of balance. I think it's threadworthy, but I wasn't too sure. If someone else wants to make a thread dedicated to this video, I'd appreciate it. or maybe it belongs here.
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On July 19 2012 03:28 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 03:21 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 03:09 iky43210 wrote:On July 19 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 02:54 iky43210 wrote:On July 19 2012 02:50 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 02:47 iky43210 wrote:
to be fair TvP isn't that much better either. You'll see the same TvZ problem if somehow blizzard buff protoss early and mid game and protoss can safely enter late game all the time.
terran t3 just sucks TvP is fine if you have good fundamentals and good micro. It's definitely harder for Terrans at sub high Masters level, but at the highest level it's completely balanced, though a bit stale. no its not. late game TvP is far from balance. The longer the game goes on, the worst it comes for terran. Zealots only becomes tougher and tougher to kill while colossus and templar lives just long enough for their terrible aoe dmg to clean off the ground army. Worst part is you're never going to be able to reinforce faster than protoss. With a warp prism/pylon and a bank, the minute he loses supply he will be warping in units. You might be able to beat protoss not paying attention, but if he properly splits his HT, or hide them in warp prism you're going to lose on the late game engagement Protoss just have superior late game army they can invest and stock up in. Terran are still stuck with T2 because T3 just simply isn't worth making Max vs max scenario with lots of Ghosts and Vikings is actually good for Terran. Dunno what you're talking about. Watch top Terrans play more. Matchup hasn't been problematic for awhile now. maybe you should watch top terran play more often. They lose so badly in the very late game engagement it isn't even funny Though probably our definition of late game is very different. Not many TvP ever hit the late game department anyway not only are viking and ghosts dead weight supply, you're not going to realistically stop every templar from storming or kill colossus fast enough for them to clean up your marines, add in zealots, archons, or even a mothership you can just gg when late game hits and protoss reaches their optimal composition. TvP is exactly like TvZ late game, except protoss is vulerable early and mid game where terran can get a ledge on them Then why does MKP say he wants to play against Protoss because he's confident he can outmacro them? How did he beat Parting? mind game. And also your example doesn't really mean much interesting fact, mkp won MLG against parting 2-1, where 2 of the games were early or mid game enders, and MKP lost fashionably in game 2, the only game that reached late game. Same thing happened in the controversial GSTL regame. In fact, I can't recall a time where MKP has beat parting in a late game TvP
MKP's game against parting that controversially got disconnected was very back and forth. Parting was winning in the end, but that game was a perfect example of how dynamic lategame PvT can be. Nobody really knew who was going to win for a large part of the game.
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On July 19 2012 03:43 Zaixer wrote:
Everyone that claim Terran can win lategame in TvP can you please post a few pro replays that showcase this? I always get totally smashed in 200 vs 200 engagements but that might be me playing it wrong.
I would like to see replays containing the following:
- Terran got 200 food MMMVG
- Protoss got 200 food Zealot/Stalker/Colossus/HT
- Terran win a engagement without the Protoss fucking up
If "fucking up" means making no mistakes at all, then Protoss kinda wins by default unless Terran also doesn't make any mistakes at all, in which case the game comes down more to composition battles rather than using superior control
I dunno if they're exactly at 200 food each, but taeja vs mc game 2 is a pretty good one to watch (even in game 1, which taeja loses, he survives for a long time with his mmm+ghost until mc just shows up with four colossi)
EDIT: One can also speculate a lot about what would have happened in mvp vs squirtle game 5 if mvp didn't get the vast majority of his battlecruisers stuck in a vortex, it's an example of lategame TvP that breaks the standard of constantly going mmm with viking and/or ghost support through the entire game
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I think immortals are a fundamental problem with the game. They are a hard-counter unit that lacks a functional counter. They destroy roaches as everyone knows but there isn't anything a zerg player can do to shut them down. Lings may have been functional against them if it wasn't for forcefields. My main issue with the immortal is it is the only unit in the game I can think of that serves as a hard-counter but lacks a counter itself. Think of other units like collosi which counter various massed tier one units, every race has a powerful anti-air unit that stomps the collosi out. HTs and Ghosts are meant to counter each other. Banelings are countered by tanks, tanks are countered by mutas... The circle goes on but at least as far as the ZvP match-up I can't think of anything that works against immortals.
From a design perspective this is a fairly easy thing to solve but gameplay wise it would have to wait since zerg is already doing well against toss. My only suggestion would be to give hydras a "piercing attack" which goes through the shield of immortals, obviously this would have issues in the game as it currently stands what with hydras being in a weird place where they aren't really effective against anything but from a design standpoint it makes sense to me.
Thoughts?
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On July 19 2012 03:46 Poppinfresh wrote:Hey guys! I wanted to post this somewhere on TL http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalanceIt's a show hosted by Penny Arcade that discusses game design and principles, this episode mentions starcraft several times and has a lot to do with the nature of balance. I think it's threadworthy, but I wasn't too sure. If someone else wants to make a thread dedicated to this video, I'd appreciate it. or maybe it belongs here.
I don't know if its frustrations on my end, or I really think this video is some misinformed bullshit. Instead of a rant I will link to someone who I believe said it better and not so angry.
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/23744036#Comment_23744036
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Lategame TvP is definitely P favoured, but not anywhere near as stupid as BL/Infestor. Couple Templars in warp prism as a backup can absolutely screw over Terran armies, since landing one or two good storms is crippling against Terran.
TvZ/PvZ and TvP however are two entirely different beasts. The concentrated DPS of bioballs against P is impossible to hold without Storm/Collossi. Terran aggression in TvP is very effective in the midgame, not so for TvZ or PvZ. That's why PvT is still pretty balanced. You can scout a Stim timing coming, but defending against it requires a whole lot of skill and it can still be a lost cause even with 1+ minutes notice. On the contrary, deflecting or wrecking P/T attacks in the midgame requires a Pool and a Roach Warren/Bling Nest and just making shit and not droning. That's the screwed up part. TvZ sucks as hard as PvZ, PvZ has Immo/Sentry and just absurd FF skill at 8gating, TvZ has another handful of gimmicky comps, and that's it, if you don't do heavy damage, you're simply fucked. PvT can actually go into macro games, but trying to outmacro zerg is futile.
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On July 19 2012 04:28 Moa wrote:
I think immortals are a fundamental problem with the game. They are a hard-counter unit that lacks a functional counter. They destroy roaches as everyone knows but there isn't anything a zerg player can do to shut them down. Lings may have been functional against them if it wasn't for forcefields. My main issue with the immortal is it is the only unit in the game I can think of that serves as a hard-counter but lacks a counter itself. Think of other units like collosi which counter various massed tier one units, every race has a powerful anti-air unit that stomps the collosi out. HTs and Ghosts are meant to counter each other. Banelings are countered by tanks, tanks are countered by mutas... The circle goes on but at least as far as the ZvP match-up I can't think of anything that works against immortals.
From a design perspective this is a fairly easy thing to solve but gameplay wise it would have to wait since zerg is already doing well against toss. My only suggestion would be to give hydras a "piercing attack" which goes through the shield of immortals, obviously this would have issues in the game as it currently stands what with hydras being in a weird place where they aren't really effective against anything but from a design standpoint it makes sense to me.
Thoughts?
How would the following come into play?
- Positioning and forcing bad engagements or other moves that the opponent wouldn't want to do
- The Zerg's ability to produce many more units than Protoss
- Micro from the Zerg side (possibly Protoss, though you partially mentioned that with forcefields)
With those in mind, why should counters be a fundamental part of this game?
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On July 19 2012 04:28 Moa wrote:
I think immortals are a fundamental problem with the game. They are a hard-counter unit that lacks a functional counter. They destroy roaches as everyone knows but there isn't anything a zerg player can do to shut them down. Lings may have been functional against them if it wasn't for forcefields. My main issue with the immortal is it is the only unit in the game I can think of that serves as a hard-counter but lacks a counter itself. Think of other units like collosi which counter various massed tier one units, every race has a powerful anti-air unit that stomps the collosi out. HTs and Ghosts are meant to counter each other. Banelings are countered by tanks, tanks are countered by mutas... The circle goes on but at least as far as the ZvP match-up I can't think of anything that works against immortals.
From a design perspective this is a fairly easy thing to solve but gameplay wise it would have to wait since zerg is already doing well against toss. My only suggestion would be to give hydras a "piercing attack" which goes through the shield of immortals, obviously this would have issues in the game as it currently stands what with hydras being in a weird place where they aren't really effective against anything but from a design standpoint it makes sense to me.
Thoughts?
You may want to check out infestors vs immortals....
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On July 19 2012 05:24 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 04:28 Moa wrote:
I think immortals are a fundamental problem with the game. They are a hard-counter unit that lacks a functional counter. They destroy roaches as everyone knows but there isn't anything a zerg player can do to shut them down. Lings may have been functional against them if it wasn't for forcefields. My main issue with the immortal is it is the only unit in the game I can think of that serves as a hard-counter but lacks a counter itself. Think of other units like collosi which counter various massed tier one units, every race has a powerful anti-air unit that stomps the collosi out. HTs and Ghosts are meant to counter each other. Banelings are countered by tanks, tanks are countered by mutas... The circle goes on but at least as far as the ZvP match-up I can't think of anything that works against immortals.
From a design perspective this is a fairly easy thing to solve but gameplay wise it would have to wait since zerg is already doing well against toss. My only suggestion would be to give hydras a "piercing attack" which goes through the shield of immortals, obviously this would have issues in the game as it currently stands what with hydras being in a weird place where they aren't really effective against anything but from a design standpoint it makes sense to me.
Thoughts? You may want to check out infestors vs immortals....
Immortals are weak to masses of units, hydralisk, mutalisk, broodlords and infestors.
Early game (low counts) use numbers to kill them, when the count gets to 4/5 you should have your T2 of choice available.
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On July 19 2012 04:28 Moa wrote:
I think immortals are a fundamental problem with the game. They are a hard-counter unit that lacks a functional counter. They destroy roaches as everyone knows but there isn't anything a zerg player can do to shut them down. Lings may have been functional against them if it wasn't for forcefields. My main issue with the immortal is it is the only unit in the game I can think of that serves as a hard-counter but lacks a counter itself. Think of other units like collosi which counter various massed tier one units, every race has a powerful anti-air unit that stomps the collosi out. HTs and Ghosts are meant to counter each other. Banelings are countered by tanks, tanks are countered by mutas... The circle goes on but at least as far as the ZvP match-up I can't think of anything that works against immortals.
From a design perspective this is a fairly easy thing to solve but gameplay wise it would have to wait since zerg is already doing well against toss. My only suggestion would be to give hydras a "piercing attack" which goes through the shield of immortals, obviously this would have issues in the game as it currently stands what with hydras being in a weird place where they aren't really effective against anything but from a design standpoint it makes sense to me.
Thoughts? Immortals maybe be too strong in immortal/sentry allin in PvZ (need more time to see what people will come up with to counter that), but calling them fundamental problem? They aren't breaking anything else. SC2 has more counter units than BW, but still you can't think in terms like that.
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According to TLPD right now, the top 30 players in foreign tournaments (which include Korean players) consist of 7 Protoss, 10 Zerg and 13 Terrans.)
The top 30 players in Korean tournaments consist of 9 Protoss 10 Zerg and 11 Terrans.
Overall the balance looks pretty good, and I see little evidence of Terran being underpowered.
I play all races including random and my personal experience in the diamond league is that Terran is a little under powered right now. I also feel like Zerg is overpowered, but I have also been playing more Zerg than Terran recently.
I have a lot of sympathy for Terrans who complain about the late game, but in the early game Protoss is super under powered. As much as I hate late game engagements, I prefer those to trying to survive cheese as a Protoss.
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EPT
