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On July 19 2012 22:37 roflcopter420 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 22:23 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Anyone can see that PvT is definitely still Protoss favored. Terran just isn't as disadvantaged as they are in ZvT now, so it has kind of fallen out of the spotlight. LOL terran has stim, so OP. Protoss has nothing like that.
Why would Protoss need something like Stim? They already have a wide variety of abilities they could use. Force Field, Charge, Storm, Blink, Feedback... all of those beat stimmed infantry down if there's no Ghost support in a straight up fight. And even with Ghost support, it's not a complete guarantee that the Terran would come out ahead enough for the warp-in reinforcements to make no difference.
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Just because DRG played bad it doesnt say that Toss is OP, LOL!
Zerg is at the moment the Strongest Race
Toss follows
Terran is the weekest
(look at tournament results atm)
"LOL terran has stim, so OP. Protoss has nothing like that."
Nice Argument.
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You know, Protoss is OP when MC makes it into the finals.
Watch the resulst of this seasons GSL. Seems quite even to me
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On July 19 2012 23:12 ooozer wrote:
You know, Protoss is OP when MC makes it into the finals.
Watch the resulst of this seasons GSL. Seems quite even to me
Not really. I don't think anyone can claim DRG was playing anywhere near his best. Nor were Symbol/Nestea.
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On July 19 2012 23:12 ooozer wrote:
You know, Protoss is OP when MC makes it into the finals.
Watch the resulst of this seasons GSL. Seems quite even to me
gsl is a lot about mind games, specific builds and elabored plans. The emphasis is more on your opponent than on his race, that's why I think the GSL is not a good indicator of the current balance of the game.
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On July 19 2012 23:26 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 23:12 ooozer wrote:
You know, Protoss is OP when MC makes it into the finals.
Watch the resulst of this seasons GSL. Seems quite even to me Not really. I don't think anyone can claim DRG was playing anywhere near his best. Nor were Symbol/Nestea.
You don't get what I say. People complained about toss in this thread, right after Seed and MC beat their opponents (and historically, both GSL wins of MC are labled under "FF imba"). That's why I said protoss OP because MC is OP.
Judging from the players participating and their constellation (XvsY), there's no good indication of imbalance this season. Except for maybe a single or two ZvTs
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On July 19 2012 23:43 ooozer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 23:26 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 23:12 ooozer wrote:
You know, Protoss is OP when MC makes it into the finals.
Watch the resulst of this seasons GSL. Seems quite even to me Not really. I don't think anyone can claim DRG was playing anywhere near his best. Nor were Symbol/Nestea. You don't get what I say. People complained about toss in this thread, right after Seed and MC beat their opponents (and historically, both GSL wins of MC are labled under "FF imba"). That's why I said protoss OP because MC is OP. Judging from the players participating and their constellation (XvsY), there's no good indication of imbalance this season. Except for maybe a single or two ZvTs
I don't think looking only at the GSL is a good idea, just because so much of it is straight up mindgames.
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Well, in which tournament in Korea do we see that Z is imbalanced?
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On July 19 2012 23:45 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 23:43 ooozer wrote:On July 19 2012 23:26 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 23:12 ooozer wrote:
You know, Protoss is OP when MC makes it into the finals.
Watch the resulst of this seasons GSL. Seems quite even to me Not really. I don't think anyone can claim DRG was playing anywhere near his best. Nor were Symbol/Nestea. You don't get what I say. People complained about toss in this thread, right after Seed and MC beat their opponents (and historically, both GSL wins of MC are labled under "FF imba"). That's why I said protoss OP because MC is OP. Judging from the players participating and their constellation (XvsY), there's no good indication of imbalance this season. Except for maybe a single or two ZvTs I don't think looking only at the GSL is a good idea, just because so much of it is straight up mindgames.
Yes yes yes. That's why I said it's bullshit to claim imbalance when THIS (doesn't mean it never does. GomTvT wasn't too long ago) GSL can't even measure it.
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On July 19 2012 22:57 Peqqz wrote:
Zerg is at the moment the Strongest Race
Toss follows
Terran is the weekest
(look at tournament results atm)
Look at tournament results?
Results from Premier Tournaments 2012:
Protoss:
MC - 2 x wins
MaNa - 1 x win
Genius - 1 x runner up
Alicia - 2 x runner up
Squirtle - 2 x runner up
YongHwa - 1 x runner up
Total : 3 wins, 6 runner up places
Thus 9 finals places from 6 players
Zerg:
DongRaeGu - 2 x winner, 2 x runner up
viOLet - 2 x winner
Stephano - 1 x winner, 1 x runner up
Nerchio - 1 x winner
DIMAGA - 2 x runner up
Symbol - 2 x runner up
Total: 6 wins, 7 runner up places
Thus 13 finals places from 6 players
Terran:
MMA - 2 x winner
Polt - 1 x winner, 1 x runner up
MarineKing - 2 x winner
MVP - 1 x winner
aLive - 1 x winner
ThorZain - 1 x winner
Sound - 1 x runner up
SuperNoVa - 1 x runner up
PuMa - 1 x runner up
Total: 8 wins, 4 runner up places
Thus 12 finals places from 9 players
Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
But clearly Terran is so much weaker than Protoss based on tournament results.
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On July 19 2012 23:50 m0ck wrote:
Well, in which tournament in Korea do we see that Z is imbalanced?
GSTL, TSL4, OSL, etc. Basically anything that doesn't give you a week to prepare strats. In addition, foreign tournaments with heavy saturation of top Koreans (NASL, MLG Arena etc) are good measure of high level play.
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On July 19 2012 23:59 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 22:57 Peqqz wrote:
Zerg is at the moment the Strongest Race
Toss follows
Terran is the weekest
(look at tournament results atm)
Look at tournament results? Results from Premier Tournaments 2012: Protoss: MC - 2 x wins MaNa - 1 x win Genius - 1 x runner up Alicia - 2 x runner up Squirtle - 2 x runner up YongHwa - 1 x runner up Total : 3 wins, 6 runner up places Thus 9 finals places from 6 players Zerg: DongRaeGu - 2 x winner, 2 x runner up viOLet - 2 x winner Stephano - 1 x winner, 1 x runner up Nerchio - 1 x winner DIMAGA - 2 x runner up Symbol - 2 x runner up Total: 6 wins, 7 runner up places Thus 13 finals places from 6 players Terran: MMA - 2 x winner Polt - 1 x winner, 1 x runner up MarineKing - 2 x winner MVP - 1 x winner aLive - 1 x winner ThorZain - 1 x winner Sound - 1 x runner up SuperNoVa - 1 x runner up PuMa - 1 x runner up Total: 8 wins, 4 runner up places Thus 12 finals places from 9 players Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsBut clearly Terran is so much weaker than Protoss based on tournament results.
he said "atm", some of the results you listed are 6 months old.
This one is more accurate : http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.png
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On July 19 2012 22:34 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 22:23 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Anyone can see that PvT is definitely still Protoss favored. Terran just isn't as disadvantaged as they are in ZvT now, so it has kind of fallen out of the spotlight. Actually, it's that at the highest level PvT contests have remained very close with a variety of builds and an evolving style. Nobody really Gate/Nexus/Nexus anymore, for example, or at least not as much.
I'm sure, and I'm not trying to take credit away as there's plenty of room to outplay your opponent regardless of race, but TvP basically comes to what PvZ is: all-in/get a lucky build order counter, or have fun surviving late game. From an impartial perspective I would rather be on the Protoss side of that (in TvP).
Of course TvZ is even worse than that. Zerg in that matchup = "I can do everything significantly better than you by game design (economy, stronger units overall, stronger casters, significantly stronger production, free map control), and I have a stronger defenders advantage, so sometimes you can't even all-in me as a last ditch effort to have a chance at winning before the 12 minute mark, and despite all of these free advantages MY all-ins are also stronger than yours".
TvP is the same thing, however Protoss gets less free advantages compared to Zerg, and it's (sometimes) easier to kill a Protoss early on, but the time "ticking time bomb" scenario still exists for a Terran player. However Terran's upgraded bio is still amazing in that it has great DPS. It's just.... that's it. It's like bringing a long sword to fight someone with armor who gets a gun after a certain period of time (in that it's painful to take sword hits even wearing armor, and sometimes you can get lucky and stab him in the neck, but more often than not you're going to get shot). My suggestion is that this dynamic needs to be shifted in both TvX matchups.
With that said I'm still very aware that there's a lot of problems with Zerg being too powerful in PvZ too.
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On July 20 2012 00:06 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 22:34 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 22:23 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Anyone can see that PvT is definitely still Protoss favored. Terran just isn't as disadvantaged as they are in ZvT now, so it has kind of fallen out of the spotlight. Actually, it's that at the highest level PvT contests have remained very close with a variety of builds and an evolving style. Nobody really Gate/Nexus/Nexus anymore, for example, or at least not as much. I'm sure, and I'm not trying to take credit away as there's plenty of room to outplay your opponent regardless of race, but TvP basically comes to what PvZ is: all-in/get a lucky build order counter, or have fun surviving late game. From an impartial perspective I would rather be on the Protoss side of that (in TvP). Of course TvZ is even worse than that. Zerg in that matchup = "I can do everything significantly better than you by game design (economy, stronger units overall, stronger casters, significantly stronger production, free map control), and I have a stronger defenders advantage, so sometimes you can't even all-in me as a last ditch effort to have a chance at winning before the 12 minute mark, and despite all of these free advantages MY all-ins are also stronger than yours". TvP is the same thing, however Protoss gets less free advantages compared to Zerg, and it's (sometimes) easier to kill a Protoss early on, but the time "ticking time bomb" scenario still exists for a Terran player. However Terran's upgraded bio is still amazing in that it has great DPS. It's just.... that's it. It's like bringing a long sword to fight someone with armor who gets a gun after a certain period of time. My suggestion is that this dynamic needs to be shifted in both TvX matchups. With that said I'm still very aware that there's a lot of problems with Zerg being too powerful in PvZ too.
PvZ and TvP are immensely different in the sense that the Terran standard openings, even if they back off/don't overcommit, force the Protoss to play pretty safely, rush out units/Colossi/Templar, and generally result in the Terran getting a quicker third than the Protoss. I've actually completely changed my mind on TvP in recent months. I used to think it was completely Toss favoured (there are post on the bnet forums of me admitting this) but now, after discussing with a few high GM Terrans, I've concluded that in a near-max scenario, Terran can actually have the upper hand if they have good engagement skills. There's really no way for a Protoss to easily attack into a well positioned Terran army, because vikings will be in an abusive spot to pick off Vikings, and because Terran will attempt to snipe the Observer and mass EMP everything.
It's actually quite fun to watch two top tier P and T players go at it, because it's basically a dance of who can get the better positioning. It's absolutely not true that Protoss can just a-move or a-move + Storm a Terran in the lategame, unless the Terran balls up and isn't paying attention. In fact, many of the Terrans I've talked to say, when they're streaming and behind against a Protoss, "I just need to max out and then I'll be back in this game." Terran maxing is actually EXTREMELY powerful against Protoss if you have the right ratio of Ghosts / Vikings / MMM.
Obviously the matchup is very difficult, but at the top level, I think it's pretty much find because Terran can play standard and still win without having to all-in or overcommit.
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On July 19 2012 23:59 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 22:57 Peqqz wrote:
Zerg is at the moment the Strongest Race
Toss follows
Terran is the weekest
(look at tournament results atm)
Look at tournament results? Results from Premier Tournaments 2012: Protoss: MC - 2 x wins MaNa - 1 x win Genius - 1 x runner up Alicia - 2 x runner up Squirtle - 2 x runner up YongHwa - 1 x runner up Total : 3 wins, 6 runner up places Thus 9 finals places from 6 players Zerg: DongRaeGu - 2 x winner, 2 x runner up viOLet - 2 x winner Stephano - 1 x winner, 1 x runner up Nerchio - 1 x winner DIMAGA - 2 x runner up Symbol - 2 x runner up Total: 6 wins, 7 runner up places Thus 13 finals places from 6 players Terran: MMA - 2 x winner Polt - 1 x winner, 1 x runner up MarineKing - 2 x winner MVP - 1 x winner aLive - 1 x winner ThorZain - 1 x winner Sound - 1 x runner up SuperNoVa - 1 x runner up PuMa - 1 x runner up Total: 8 wins, 4 runner up places Thus 12 finals places from 9 players Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsBut clearly Terran is so much weaker than Protoss based on tournament results.
Nice job posting pre-patch results to talk about the current balance of the game. More than half of those terran stats are before the patch.
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Terrans lack of AoE & zerg can overcomes tanks with +0/+1 in lings in the early game. My suggestion is 36 base damage for tanks in siege mode. It may be too powerful but I'd like to see how this change could affect TvZ.
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On July 20 2012 00:03 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 23:59 Lightspeaker wrote:On July 19 2012 22:57 Peqqz wrote:
Zerg is at the moment the Strongest Race
Toss follows
Terran is the weekest
(look at tournament results atm)
Look at tournament results? Results from Premier Tournaments 2012: Protoss: MC - 2 x wins MaNa - 1 x win Genius - 1 x runner up Alicia - 2 x runner up Squirtle - 2 x runner up YongHwa - 1 x runner up Total : 3 wins, 6 runner up places Thus 9 finals places from 6 players Zerg: DongRaeGu - 2 x winner, 2 x runner up viOLet - 2 x winner Stephano - 1 x winner, 1 x runner up Nerchio - 1 x winner DIMAGA - 2 x runner up Symbol - 2 x runner up Total: 6 wins, 7 runner up places Thus 13 finals places from 6 players Terran: MMA - 2 x winner Polt - 1 x winner, 1 x runner up MarineKing - 2 x winner MVP - 1 x winner aLive - 1 x winner ThorZain - 1 x winner Sound - 1 x runner up SuperNoVa - 1 x runner up PuMa - 1 x runner up Total: 8 wins, 4 runner up places Thus 12 finals places from 9 players Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsBut clearly Terran is so much weaker than Protoss based on tournament results. he said "atm", some of the results you listed are 6 months old. This one is more accurate : http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.png
On July 20 2012 00:12 ne0lith wrote:
Nice job posting pre-patch results to talk about the current balance of the game. More than half of those terran stats are before the patch.
You both missed the point entirely. He also said Protoss is stronger than Terran like its some kind of fact. That results picture is demonstrating what has happened since the Queen buff. I wasn't aware that Protoss could build Queens.
Point is that Protoss hasn't changed and has always had poor tournament winrates. All thats happening recently is that Zerg are now knocking Terran out of every tournament. Protoss is still doing as well as ever (i.e. fairly poorly relatively speaking), its not suddenly magically stronger than Terran, its just not as hurt by the Queen buff and so is maintaining the same tournament winrates as before.
Proof? Queen change was 10th May. 2012 results for Protoss:
Before 10th May (5 months): 2 wins, 4 runners up
After 10th May until now (2 months): 1 win, 2 runners up
TL, DR: Queen buff is irrelevant to PvT. Tournament winrates from 2012 overall show Terran is stronger than Protoss. Only difference is Terran is now getting absolutely murdered by Zerg at every Premier tournament since the Queen buff.
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On July 20 2012 00:10 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 00:06 DemigodcelpH wrote:On July 19 2012 22:34 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 22:23 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Anyone can see that PvT is definitely still Protoss favored. Terran just isn't as disadvantaged as they are in ZvT now, so it has kind of fallen out of the spotlight. Actually, it's that at the highest level PvT contests have remained very close with a variety of builds and an evolving style. Nobody really Gate/Nexus/Nexus anymore, for example, or at least not as much. I'm sure, and I'm not trying to take credit away as there's plenty of room to outplay your opponent regardless of race, but TvP basically comes to what PvZ is: all-in/get a lucky build order counter, or have fun surviving late game. From an impartial perspective I would rather be on the Protoss side of that (in TvP). Of course TvZ is even worse than that. Zerg in that matchup = "I can do everything significantly better than you by game design (economy, stronger units overall, stronger casters, significantly stronger production, free map control), and I have a stronger defenders advantage, so sometimes you can't even all-in me as a last ditch effort to have a chance at winning before the 12 minute mark, and despite all of these free advantages MY all-ins are also stronger than yours". TvP is the same thing, however Protoss gets less free advantages compared to Zerg, and it's (sometimes) easier to kill a Protoss early on, but the time "ticking time bomb" scenario still exists for a Terran player. However Terran's upgraded bio is still amazing in that it has great DPS. It's just.... that's it. It's like bringing a long sword to fight someone with armor who gets a gun after a certain period of time. My suggestion is that this dynamic needs to be shifted in both TvX matchups. With that said I'm still very aware that there's a lot of problems with Zerg being too powerful in PvZ too. PvZ and TvP are immensely different in the sense that the Terran standard openings, even if they back off/don't overcommit, force the Protoss to play pretty safely, rush out units/Colossi/Templar, and generally result in the Terran getting a quicker third than the Protoss. I've actually completely changed my mind on TvP in recent months. I used to think it was completely Toss favoured (there are post on the bnet forums of me admitting this) but now, after discussing with a few high GM Terrans, I've concluded that in a near-max scenario, Terran can actually have the upper hand if they have good engagement skills. There's really no way for a Protoss to easily attack into a well positioned Terran army, because vikings will be in an abusive spot to pick off Vikings, and because Terran will attempt to snipe the Observer and mass EMP everything. It's actually quite fun to watch two top tier P and T players go at it, because it's basically a dance of who can get the better positioning. It's absolutely not true that Protoss can just a-move or a-move + Storm a Terran in the lategame, unless the Terran balls up and isn't paying attention. In fact, many of the Terrans I've talked to say, when they're streaming and behind against a Protoss, "I just need to max out and then I'll be back in this game." Terran maxing is actually EXTREMELY powerful against Protoss if you have the right ratio of Ghosts / Vikings / MMM. Obviously the matchup is very difficult, but at the top level, I think it's pretty much find because Terran can play standard and still win without having to all-in or overcommit.
I assume those are valid criticisms, but wouldn't you agree that unless a Terran player successfully snipes or emps all of the HT or a vast majority he will at a significant disadvantage in the fight assuming bio vs toss death ball? That doesn't seem very fair. Ghosts are supposed to be tactical high tier units, but recently they function like crutches to give Terran a fighting chance late game, however they can't transform into archons, and they don't counter everything like infestors. This is at the cost of them having an auto attack, but I argue that most players, even P or Z, don't care about the ghost's auto attack.
This line of thinking is how I made my conclusions. Of course this doesn't factor in post chargelot warp-ins while Terran is rebuilding with BW style production facilities.
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EPT
