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On July 20 2012 02:18 Sandermatt wrote:
The Reaper speed upgrade was moved from the barracks to the factory because of the 5 rax reaper strategy. With the new queen range, ist there any reason to let it stay at factory tech? I think reaper openings are rather specatator friendly. (I stoped playing and am only a spectator now)
nitro pack upgrade will disappear in hots, so don't expect any change regarding this ability. At this point, I don't know why they don't completely remove the reaper for the next expansion.
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On July 20 2012 02:18 Sandermatt wrote:
The Reaper speed upgrade was moved from the barracks to the factory because of the 5 rax reaper strategy. With the new queen range, ist there any reason to let it stay at factory tech? I think reaper openings are rather specatator friendly. (I stoped playing and am only a spectator now)
I stopped playing as well and don't intend to come back until the game looks fun again, but that's neither here nor there. Regardless of whether people believe the matchups are balanced or not, the painful truth is that the game has gotten much less fun to WATCH. At least this is the case for my friends and I. Whether it's FFE vs. 3 Hatch, 6 queen vs. 3 Orbital, or CC First vs 1g Nexus, this game is a complete bore in the first 10 minutes. Hey, I want the game to be fair too, but the systematic nerfs to everything early game from Terran, Warp gate, and the buff to queens has damaged this game from a viewing perspective to be sure. I'm not saying I don't like macro games, but its kind of getting ridiculous. Either your allin or your standardly being greedy. There's is almost no in between minor pressure builds, or at least it seems that way now.
I'm sure some people might enjoy it more though, my two cents. As far as balance, I wish Blizzard would've buffed something else of zergs if they really felt they weren't fine early on that wasn't their core macro unit. Buff spines, or the armor/health on a creep tumor so helions can't really kill it easy. Anything but this. Soz for rant.
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Taken from the GSL RO4 Winner's Interview:
+ Show Spoiler +I am feeling great. It's a shame that I had to beat someone I'm close to in Byun but he's such a great player that once Terran is buffed in the future, he can try again for the championship.
I think we're all pretty much in agreement here.
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Shasta37 basically summed it up. There is no early game anymore. No 1 base stage, everyone (aside from all-ins) just skips straight to 2 base mid game stage leaving the casters with nothing interesting to talk about so they have to come up with stories to tell not related to the game.
SC2 would be amazing if it were designed such that there were constant small skirmishes all game long, starting off 1 base vs 1 base and then naturally progressing. Also if there were more variety in strategies, however blizzard seem determined to make anything except "standard" (read: boring to watch because it's always the same) play.
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On July 20 2012 02:45 Beelzebro wrote:
Shasta37 basically summed it up. There is no early game anymore. No 1 base stage, everyone (aside from all-ins) just skips straight to 2 base mid game stage leaving the casters with nothing interesting to talk about so they have to come up with stories to tell not related to the game.
SC2 would be amazing if it were designed such that there were constant small skirmishes all game long, starting off 1 base vs 1 base and then naturally progressing. Also if there were more variety in strategies, however blizzard seem determined to make anything except "standard" (read: boring to watch because it's always the same) play.
For the most part, agreed.
Almost any 1 base strategy can be held off by a FE (or even double expo) strategy now a days. IMO it's mostly a map design issue.
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On July 20 2012 02:34 Shasta37 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 02:18 Sandermatt wrote:
The Reaper speed upgrade was moved from the barracks to the factory because of the 5 rax reaper strategy. With the new queen range, ist there any reason to let it stay at factory tech? I think reaper openings are rather specatator friendly. (I stoped playing and am only a spectator now) I stopped playing as well and don't intend to come back until the game looks fun again, but that's neither here nor there. Regardless of whether people believe the matchups are balanced or not, the painful truth is that the game has gotten much less fun to WATCH. At least this is the case for my friends and I. Whether it's FFE vs. 3 Hatch, 6 queen vs. 3 Orbital, or CC First vs 1g Nexus, this game is a complete bore in the first 10 minutes. Hey, I want the game to be fair too, but the systematic nerfs to everything early game from Terran, Warp gate, and the buff to queens has damaged this game from a viewing perspective to be sure. I'm not saying I don't like macro games, but its kind of getting ridiculous. Either your allin or your standardly being greedy. There's is almost no in between minor pressure builds, or at least it seems that way now. I'm sure some people might enjoy it more though, my two cents. As far as balance, I wish Blizzard would've buffed something else of zergs if they really felt they weren't fine early on that wasn't their core macro unit. Buff spines, or the armor/health on a creep tumor so helions can't really kill it easy. Anything but this. Soz for rant.
This is precisely why I used to enjoy TvZ/ZvT so much as a viewer. From the very start of the game there was aggression. It would go from bunker pressure with 2 scvs and a few marines to hellion harass at the front. Both sides were constantly at risk. If the zerg let the hellions into his base he had to play major catchup. If the terran lost his hellions he lost map control and any way of knowing if a baneling/roach/ling all in was coming for him. In the mid-game mutas or infestors would come out and the game would hit another stage of preventing major harass damage and larger and larger armies would clash in the middle of the map until we hit the lategame.
Now it's really just a matter of sitting there for 10 minutes unless someone tries a 2rax or the Zerg decides to all-in. It's boring and the only thing to do is yell about the "INSANE CREEP SPREAD!!!!!11!!" that we've all seen dozens of times now. It may be more balanced, but it's turned the most entertaining MU to watch into a shadow of its former self.
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On July 20 2012 02:51 mythandier wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 02:45 Beelzebro wrote:
Shasta37 basically summed it up. There is no early game anymore. No 1 base stage, everyone (aside from all-ins) just skips straight to 2 base mid game stage leaving the casters with nothing interesting to talk about so they have to come up with stories to tell not related to the game.
SC2 would be amazing if it were designed such that there were constant small skirmishes all game long, starting off 1 base vs 1 base and then naturally progressing. Also if there were more variety in strategies, however blizzard seem determined to make anything except "standard" (read: boring to watch because it's always the same) play. For the most part, agreed. Almost any 1 base strategy can be held off by a FE (or even double expo) strategy now a days. IMO it's mostly a map design issue.
It's not just maps. In BW, players would fight for map control because map architecture made it impossible to expand beyond two bases without some amount of map presence, and this is obviously a factor. However, the way SC2 is designed, this would just make it impossible for Protoss or Terran to ever take a third against Zerg - remember how vZ games would play out on Crossfire? In SC2, the combination of Zerg mobility, their innate eco advantage, and the vision provided by creep, give them an insane advantage in securing faraway bases as well as denying them. If P or T can't defend their 3 bases while sitting in one spot, Zerg can easily abuse them for it.
It even shows up later in the game - for instance, in Byun vs Symbol on Antiga in the OSL, Byun was well ahead, but eventually lost because he couldn't secure a fifth base, because he couldn't defend that and his center base at the same time.
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On July 20 2012 03:01 Swords wrote:
This is precisely why I used to enjoy TvZ/ZvT so much as a viewer. From the very start of the game there was aggression. It would go from bunker pressure with 2 scvs and a few marines to hellion harass at the front. Both sides were constantly at risk. If the zerg let the hellions into his base he had to play major catchup. If the terran lost his hellions he lost map control and any way of knowing if a baneling/roach/ling all in was coming for him. In the mid-game mutas or infestors would come out and the game would hit another stage of preventing major harass damage and larger and larger armies would clash in the middle of the map until we hit the lategame.
Now it's really just a matter of sitting there for 10 minutes unless someone tries a 2rax or the Zerg decides to all-in. It's boring and the only thing to do is yell about the "INSANE CREEP SPREAD!!!!!11!!" that we've all seen dozens of times now. It may be more balanced, but it's turned the most entertaining MU to watch into a shadow of its former self.
TvZ also used to be my favorite matchup. It felt like it was the most balanced, and each race had a specific option if race A made unit A, then race B could make unit B to deal with it and so on. Not necessarily to "counter" it but they had an option to deal with said unit. But now, Z is allowed to just easily get into the late game, unless they really botch something up and T gets some big damage (and I mean big, like killing the natural, or killing 20+ drones) in, and their t3 just stomps T's t3 in all instances. Granted, the matchup used to be "ok, I'll go marine tank until you get BL's out, and then i'll just transition into ghosts" but even that was more exciting than just watching T's be forced into engagements where they just lose, or they have the apm of a hummingbird on speed and can drop 18 different positions, and macro out of 20rax on 5 base (which is exceedingly rare).
T used to have some options in early game to keep Z from just cruising into late game and getting everything they wanted off 4 base. And now if they try to be as greedy as Z, and Z scouts it, they just go kill T for not having any infrastructure or units. I have seen some very good TvZ games post queen patch, but Z's honestly win 70% of the games now while being as greedy and safe as they want.
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Well, I can't agree at all that 'there's no early game anymore'. It certainly is not the case for ZvT. There are still plenty of games with double-rax, single rax and bunker outside natural, reactor-hellion+banshee pressure and on and on. From the zergs perspective we see games with 30 early lings to put on pressure on the terran natural right about when the first hellions come out and of course there are the roach-bling pressure/all-ins. I fail to see how it is different from before.
What happens less is auto-win/losses by all-ins. But I don't miss hellion run-bys (though they still happen and they still win games) and zergs blindly all-inning in order to stop the fast third CC without tanks or marauders.
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On July 20 2012 03:14 ordinarY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 03:01 Swords wrote:
This is precisely why I used to enjoy TvZ/ZvT so much as a viewer. From the very start of the game there was aggression. It would go from bunker pressure with 2 scvs and a few marines to hellion harass at the front. Both sides were constantly at risk. If the zerg let the hellions into his base he had to play major catchup. If the terran lost his hellions he lost map control and any way of knowing if a baneling/roach/ling all in was coming for him. In the mid-game mutas or infestors would come out and the game would hit another stage of preventing major harass damage and larger and larger armies would clash in the middle of the map until we hit the lategame.
Now it's really just a matter of sitting there for 10 minutes unless someone tries a 2rax or the Zerg decides to all-in. It's boring and the only thing to do is yell about the "INSANE CREEP SPREAD!!!!!11!!" that we've all seen dozens of times now. It may be more balanced, but it's turned the most entertaining MU to watch into a shadow of its former self. TvZ also used to be my favorite matchup. It felt like it was the most balanced, and each race had a specific option if race A made unit A, then race B could make unit B to deal with it and so on. Not necessarily to "counter" it but they had an option to deal with said unit. But now, Z is allowed to just easily get into the late game, unless they really botch something up and T gets some big damage (and I mean big, like killing the natural, or killing 20+ drones) in, and their t3 just stomps T's t3 in all instances. Granted, the matchup used to be "ok, I'll go marine tank until you get BL's out, and then i'll just transition into ghosts" but even that was more exciting than just watching T's be forced into engagements where they just lose, or they have the apm of a hummingbird on speed and can drop 18 different positions, and macro out of 20rax on 5 base (which is exceedingly rare). T used to have some options in early game to keep Z from just cruising into late game and getting everything they wanted off 4 base. And now if they try to be as greedy as Z, and Z scouts it, they just go kill T for not having any infrastructure or units. I have seen some very good TvZ games post queen patch, but Z's honestly win 70% of the games now while being as greedy and safe as they want.
The problem is, that now the game seem balanced between the best zergs and the best terrans - the ones with APM like hummingbirds. It looks like it isn't at a lower level. But how do we make up for that difference?
Reverting the queen-change would just put us back in all-in territory and make ZvZ go back to 8 min average again. I would much rather look at something like faster receding creep or a buff to terran late-game in order to better deal with BL+infestor.
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I think we have all agreed. Buff Terran T3.
For the early game as a whole, how about something like going to 8 worker starts, shorter worker build times, more resources gathered per trip, or even gold minerals in the starting base?
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On July 20 2012 02:16 derpinator wrote:
lol @ battlecruisers + raven solves terran lategame in ZVT statement.
Well.. many Zergs here don't recognize subtle trolling...
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On July 20 2012 03:55 dvorakftw wrote:
I think we have all agreed. Buff Terran T3.
For the early game as a whole, how about something like going to 8 worker starts, shorter worker build times, more resources gathered per trip, or even gold minerals in the starting base?
I just don't think so. That just accelerates the problem we are already having with zerg getting T3 faster. Giving terran a gas dump is the solution. A lot of times zerg and protoss can find a nice balance with lings/zealots being the mineral expense, and infestors or HT being the gas dump. Terran units are all mineral heavy, which means if you shut down their minerals in any way, they die. The fact that they mine out so fast is a big issue on maps where taking a 3rd can be difficult, and impossible late game where taking a 4th is insane.
Buff ravens or revert ghost cost. Give terran something to spend gas on. All early game pressure from terran and to terran is based on stim being 3 minutes; which is the source of why a lot of early game pressure from protoss and zerg got nerfed before. They want a focus on mid-game and late game, but terran really can't stand on their own two feet without disgusting micro or an insane mistake from zerg/protoss.
tl;dr I have had games where I have 3k gas and nothing to spend it on; while zerg and protoss can't get enough of it. Having a decent gas dump will fix a lot of the terran issues in both of the match-ups.
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This is precisely why I used to enjoy TvZ/ZvT so much as a viewer. From the very start of the game there was aggression. It would go from bunker pressure with 2 scvs and a few marines to hellion harass at the front. Both sides were constantly at risk.
No. And thats the reason why I hated vT so much. From the very start of the game there was agression. Playing the punching bag for 10 minutes is NOT FUN AT ALL. If really both sides would have been at risk, Z could just take 6 Lings and a drone to put pressure on Terran, or 4 Roaches to contain him until 4+ Marauders are out. Or 1 Base mutalisk and force towers.
It was sooooooo cool to watch and go like "hm he got his bunker up, the game is over" or "oh the hellions pushed his queen aside (rapidly spamming move command right behind or between ramp and queen) now he is roasting drones and the game is over again"
After the first 10 Minutes of one sided aggresion the game was really fun to watch going back an forth, but the first 10 minutes were horrible from a zerg POV. While I can see that terrans really enjoyed this "impressive micro with 1 - 4 units" and I guess its really cool if you are on the attacking side, as a Zerg player it was like: Wow he defended perfectly now he is able tokill?... no... attack?... no... pressure?.... no... ok... drone." And thats not really interesting.
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On July 20 2012 04:14 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +This is precisely why I used to enjoy TvZ/ZvT so much as a viewer. From the very start of the game there was aggression. It would go from bunker pressure with 2 scvs and a few marines to hellion harass at the front. Both sides were constantly at risk. No. And thats the reason why I hated vT so much. From the very start of the game there was agression. Playing the punching bag for 10 minutes is NOT FUN AT ALL. If really both sides would have been at risk, Z could just take 6 Lings and a drone to put pressure on Terran, or 4 Roaches to contain him until 4+ Marauders are out. Or 1 Base mutalisk and force towers. It was sooooooo cool to watch and go like "hm he got his bunker up, the game is over" or "oh the hellions pushed his queen aside (rapidly spamming move command right behind or between ramp and queen) now he is roasting drones and the game is over again" After the first 10 Minutes of one sided aggresion the game was really fun to watch going back an forth, but the first 10 minutes were horrible from a zerg POV. While I can see that terrans really enjoyed this "impressive micro with 1 - 4 units" and I guess its really cool if you are on the attacking side, as a Zerg player it was like: Wow he defended perfectly now he is able tokill?... no... attack?... no... pressure?.... no... ok... drone." And thats not really interesting.
It's not like the Zerg couldn't make 7+ roaches in the main and march right through those initial hellions to deal major damage in the main.... or produce 24 speedlings that surround kill the hellions and then go for the counter/contain... no.. because that would have meant sacrificing early economy... which is blasphemy!
Terran was the aggressor, in order to force Zerg to make units. Zerg usually refused apart from a 3rd queen and 2 spines so Zergs had to live with the defensive role.
These days it's I even see enough zergs going straight for the 3rd hatch the instance the natural CC goes down for a 1rax expand, often even before the pool. Terran is forced in the macro style, because Dustin Browder said "Can't touch this!"
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On July 20 2012 00:06 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 22:34 Shiori wrote:On July 19 2012 22:23 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Anyone can see that PvT is definitely still Protoss favored. Terran just isn't as disadvantaged as they are in ZvT now, so it has kind of fallen out of the spotlight. Actually, it's that at the highest level PvT contests have remained very close with a variety of builds and an evolving style. Nobody really Gate/Nexus/Nexus anymore, for example, or at least not as much. I'm sure, and I'm not trying to take credit away as there's plenty of room to outplay your opponent regardless of race, but TvP basically comes to what PvZ is: all-in/get a lucky build order counter, or have fun surviving late game. From an impartial perspective I would rather be on the Protoss side of that (in TvP). Of course TvZ is even worse than that. Zerg in that matchup = "I can do everything significantly better than you by game design (economy, stronger units overall, stronger casters, significantly stronger production, free map control), and I have a stronger defenders advantage, so sometimes you can't even all-in me as a last ditch effort to have a chance at winning before the 12 minute mark, and despite all of these free advantages MY all-ins are also stronger than yours". TvP is the same thing, however Protoss gets less free advantages compared to Zerg, and it's (sometimes) easier to kill a Protoss early on, but the time "ticking time bomb" scenario still exists for a Terran player. However Terran's upgraded bio is still amazing in that it has great DPS. It's just.... that's it. It's like bringing a long sword to fight someone with armor who gets a gun after a certain period of time (in that it's painful to take sword hits even wearing armor, and sometimes you can get lucky and stab him in the neck, but more often than not you're going to get shot). My suggestion is that this dynamic needs to be shifted in both TvX matchups. With that said I'm still very aware that there's a lot of problems with Zerg being too powerful in PvZ too.
No. You can't make statements like that; the races are different and all have their own advantages and disadvantages.
Zergs have creep as vision for defender advantage. Terrans have bunkers a wall-in and repair. Protoss have wall in and cannons.
Terrans have mules to stay on even economy in the early game besides being down a base. Terran's tier 1 unit is so strong it can be used to kill literally ANYTHING. The only cost effective unit for zerg is the infestor and broodlord (possibly ultra).
As a zerg player I can say that zerglings are great as well, but they're no where cost effective. Zerg is primarily restricted by gass so you can make as many lings as you want. But they aren't cost effective at all. All zerg units suck besides the infestor and broodlord (corruptor is pretty strong too). And the ultra if you only consider it when it's allowed to deal damage I guess.
On topic:
I think it's pretty obvious that terran shouldn't be able to kill such a monstrous army of broodlord infestor corruptor queen with marines, a silly tier 1 unit which costs 50 minerals.
But depending on how well battlecruiser raven is going to work out, you could give it some buffs. But marines should NEVER be able to beat an army like that. Marines in a straight up fight couldn't even beat drones under a dark swarm. You could win with marines but then you have to abuse mobility (starve the zerg, fight away from dark swarm, use vessels,...) and straight up be the better player which isn't going to happen since the top players are probably as good as each other, skill wise.
So terran might need some tier 3 buffs and zerg could use a nerf on the amount of larvae a single hatchery can support. Inject larvae doesn't have to be nerfed. Which would restrict the instant remax a bit and the ability to just built a billion spines because less larvae are available.
Protoss end game is pretty much fine if the carrier ends up proving it's potential. If not give it a small buff like possibility for micro like in bw or another small buff so it can deal with broodlord infestor better.
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On July 20 2012 04:14 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +This is precisely why I used to enjoy TvZ/ZvT so much as a viewer. From the very start of the game there was aggression. It would go from bunker pressure with 2 scvs and a few marines to hellion harass at the front. Both sides were constantly at risk. No. And thats the reason why I hated vT so much. From the very start of the game there was agression. Playing the punching bag for 10 minutes is NOT FUN AT ALL. If really both sides would have been at risk, Z could just take 6 Lings and a drone to put pressure on Terran, or 4 Roaches to contain him until 4+ Marauders are out. Or 1 Base mutalisk and force towers. It was sooooooo cool to watch and go like "hm he got his bunker up, the game is over" or "oh the hellions pushed his queen aside (rapidly spamming move command right behind or between ramp and queen) now he is roasting drones and the game is over again" After the first 10 Minutes of one sided aggresion the game was really fun to watch going back an forth, but the first 10 minutes were horrible from a zerg POV. While I can see that terrans really enjoyed this "impressive micro with 1 - 4 units" and I guess its really cool if you are on the attacking side, as a Zerg player it was like: Wow he defended perfectly now he is able tokill?... no... attack?... no... pressure?.... no... ok... drone." And thats not really interesting.
So now it is faire that zerg cannot be pressured at all, and can defend any pressure if they have half decent scouting?.. Right..
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On July 20 2012 04:14 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +This is precisely why I used to enjoy TvZ/ZvT so much as a viewer. From the very start of the game there was aggression. It would go from bunker pressure with 2 scvs and a few marines to hellion harass at the front. Both sides were constantly at risk. No. And thats the reason why I hated vT so much. From the very start of the game there was agression. Playing the punching bag for 10 minutes is NOT FUN AT ALL. If really both sides would have been at risk, Z could just take 6 Lings and a drone to put pressure on Terran, or 4 Roaches to contain him until 4+ Marauders are out. Or 1 Base mutalisk and force towers. It was sooooooo cool to watch and go like "hm he got his bunker up, the game is over" or "oh the hellions pushed his queen aside (rapidly spamming move command right behind or between ramp and queen) now he is roasting drones and the game is over again" After the first 10 Minutes of one sided aggresion the game was really fun to watch going back an forth, but the first 10 minutes were horrible from a zerg POV. While I can see that terrans really enjoyed this "impressive micro with 1 - 4 units" and I guess its really cool if you are on the attacking side, as a Zerg player it was like: Wow he defended perfectly now he is able tokill?... no... attack?... no... pressure?.... no... ok... drone." And thats not really interesting.
Right, now zergs don't even make spines anymore in tvz, how sad is that? Also, many Z's didn't know of the roach/bling/ling all in before the patch, zerg can put pressure back on the terran, they just decide not too. What about making 7 roaches to secure third then counter attack while having a spine evo queen wall at nat? Or sneaking 12 speedling sand run them around and go snatch some scv's? It's like toss and terran complaining about ling run bys because there's a whole in the wall or the supply depot didn't raise in time.
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On July 20 2012 04:11 SnowFox2ne1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 03:55 dvorakftw wrote:
I think we have all agreed. Buff Terran T3.
For the early game as a whole, how about something like going to 8 worker starts, shorter worker build times, more resources gathered per trip, or even gold minerals in the starting base? I just don't think so. That just accelerates the problem we are already having with zerg getting T3 faster. Giving terran a gas dump is the solution. A lot of times zerg and protoss can find a nice balance with lings/zealots being the mineral expense, and infestors or HT being the gas dump. Terran units are all mineral heavy, which means if you shut down their minerals in any way, they die. The fact that they mine out so fast is a big issue on maps where taking a 3rd can be difficult, and impossible late game where taking a 4th is insane. Buff ravens or revert ghost cost. Give terran something to spend gas on. All early game pressure from terran and to terran is based on stim being 3 minutes; which is the source of why a lot of early game pressure from protoss and zerg got nerfed before. They want a focus on mid-game and late game, but terran really can't stand on their own two feet without disgusting micro or an insane mistake from zerg/protoss. tl;dr I have had games where I have 3k gas and nothing to spend it on; while zerg and protoss can't get enough of it. Having a decent gas dump will fix a lot of the terran issues in both of the match-ups.
I really like this idea, and found it very strange when Ghost cost was changed - especially since the rationale was that reducing the gas cost would make them easier to afford. Funny how that worked out. In any case I'd really like to see a ptr with 100/150 ghosts and Ravens with a speed buff and increased range on HSM. I very much doubt any of these changes would break anything in the game.
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I personally believe TvP to be the most imba MU at the current meta. The reason being is of course templar's and Collosis. Storms deal way to much damage. yes they can be dodged but that's precious time you are spending to micro and not attacc.With that mechanic in place it leaves collosis danger free and able to have free reign. it's also 2 hard to get the perfect comp. You either make 2 many ghosts or 2 many vikings. nothing is ever just enough..
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EPT
