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BlindKill
Australia1508 Posts
On July 20 2012 15:18 Gimix wrote: Even though terran is doing the worst still nobody wants terran to be buffed. Feels bad man. After that zerg tear extraction thread during our glorious days, I'm pretty sure we made way way way more enemies than friends  | ||
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LucidityDark
United Kingdom139 Posts
On July 20 2012 17:12 Toadvine wrote: Meh, I think Brood Lords are fine. Aside from broodlings screwing up pathing, they have a good enough balance of strengths and weaknesses, and essentially play a similar role to siege tanks. The problem lies in the Infestor, which makes the natural ways of dealing with broodlords (air units) largely ineffective. Making Fungal not hit air would immediately solve any and all Broodlord problems, imo. That would go towards making ZvP and ZvT much better, but you are suddenly leaving ZvZ to become "Who has the more mutalisks?" as there is no unit on the ground other than the infestor that can effectively combat mutas, as hydralisks just melt in the battles. | ||
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Kamwah
United Kingdom724 Posts
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derpinator
74 Posts
On July 20 2012 17:30 BlindKill wrote: After that zerg tear extraction thread during our glorious days, I'm pretty sure we made way way way more enemies than friends I have played zerg a long time but have never realized that so many zerg players have become psychologically damaged at the time when terran whas still OP. Any buff to terran by blizzard will probably face fierce resistance by those I-got-to-masters-when-zerg-got-OP players :D | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 21 2012 00:25 derpinator wrote: I have played zerg a long time but have never realized that so many zerg players have become psychologically damaged at the time when terran whas still OP. Any buff to terran by blizzard will probably face fierce resistance by those I-got-to-masters-when-zerg-got-OP players :D You mean like any nerf to Terran was a huge whinefest, because "I cannot win the game before 5mins without going allin... (which I'm now doing and I'm having like 92.754% winrate) This game is sooo imbalanced!!!"  not talking about the last patch, the new metagame is quite harsh for Terran. But all the other things... I really hope that they just revert queenrange and if needed give zerg an aggressive option instead, that fares well against most Terran builds like hellions did against most zerg builds. (= dynamic matchup) | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 21 2012 01:15 larse wrote: Yesterday GSTL, Keen vs Whale. 40 drones killed and Zerg is still ahead in harvest count. And pure queens defended all the early aggression. And the Zerg is able to skip almost every single tier 1 and tier 2 units except queen and directly go to ultra. And later catch up to max supply. Lol. well, Keen also sacrificed like 15hellions and went for banshees with cloak to accomplish that and whale did skip the techs, because he knew that with mass hellion and cloaked banshee, there is not going to be a big attack. Also he did lose in the end, due to the heavy damage he took early on, but yeah, the flow of the game was really ridiculous. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On July 21 2012 01:47 Big J wrote: well, Keen also sacrificed like 15hellions and went for banshees with cloak to accomplish that and whale did skip the techs, because he knew that with mass hellion and cloaked banshee, there is not going to be a big attack. Also he did lose in the end, due to the heavy damage he took early on, but yeah, the flow of the game was really ridiculous. With the previous 100 pages of discussion, the conclusion is obvious zerg op and everyone can see it's a fact right now. The only reason I can think of that Blizzard hasn't do anything is that they are waiting for the 1.5 patch to finalize in other technical aspects (cuz it's a huge patch) and they are using this timeframe to observe more matches and see what is exactly wrong with the matchup at the moment. I don't think they are ignorant about the situation. But they are just slow as always. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 21 2012 02:03 larse wrote: With the previous 100 pages of discussion, the conclusion is obvious zerg op and everyone can see it's a fact right now. The only reason I can think of that Blizzard hasn't do anything is that they are waiting for the 1.5 patch to finalize in other technical aspects (cuz it's a huge patch) and they are using this timeframe to observe more matches and see what is exactly wrong with the matchup at the moment. I don't think they are ignorant about the situation. But they are just slow as always. Optimism. Blizzard is often very ignorant of the situation, heh. Anyone else remember when Blink builds were nerfed out of nowhere, with not a single complaint from anyone? | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On July 21 2012 02:05 Shiori wrote: Optimism. Blizzard is often very ignorant of the situation, heh. Anyone else remember when Blink builds were nerfed out of nowhere, with not a single complaint from anyone? Well, they did some stupid s***, but they did respond to many of the concerns. This zerg op thing is huge and if you watched the MLG interview, Dustin Browder and David Kim already knew the situation back then (it was June, right?). They said in the interview that there are two major concerns of balance: first is the roach in ZvP, and the second is the queen buff in TvZ. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 21 2012 02:11 larse wrote: Well, they did some stupid s***, but they did respond to many of the concerns. This zerg op thing is huge and if you watched the MLG interview, Dustin Browder and David Kim already knew the situation back then (it was June, right?). They said in the interview that there are two major concerns of balance: first is the roach in ZvP, and the second is the queen buff in TvZ. Well, then that is encouraging :D. I hope they do something about it. | ||
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derpinator
74 Posts
On July 21 2012 00:58 Big J wrote: You mean like any nerf to Terran was a huge whinefest, because "I cannot win the game before 5mins without going allin... (which I'm now doing and I'm having like 92.754% winrate) This game is sooo imbalanced!!!" not talking about the last patch, the new metagame is quite harsh for Terran. But all the other things... I really hope that they just revert queenrange and if needed give zerg an aggressive option instead, that fares well against most Terran builds like hellions did against most zerg builds. (= dynamic matchup) They are never going to revert the queen range, that buff was not meant for ZVT at all. The reason blizzard gave queens +2 range against ground whas to give the zerg player a counter to mass roach instead of going mass roach themselves in ZVZ. If blizzard does revert the queen range than ZVZ and ZVP will all be about mass roach and this doesnt make SC2 an exciting game to watch at all. So the queen range whas about letting this game survive in e-sports and terrans got screwed in the meantime and they where already the weakest race even before the buff. | ||
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Zane
Romania3916 Posts
On July 21 2012 02:24 derpinator wrote: They are never going to revert the queen range, that buff was not meant for ZVT at all. The reason blizzard gave queens +2 range against ground whas to give the zerg player a counter to mass roach instead of going mass roach themselves in ZVZ. If blizzard does revert the queen range than ZVZ and ZVP will all be about mass roach and this doesnt make SC2 an exciting game to watch at all. So the queen range whas about letting this game survive in e-sports and terrans got screwed in the meantime and they where already the weakest race even before the buff. So do you think ZvT and ZvP are exciting to watch right now? Besides, I'm pretty sure Dustin Bowder said at one point that the queen buff was meant to help against reactor hellion openings, because "they were too versatile" and the usual mumbo jumbo. | ||
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derpinator
74 Posts
Besides, I'm pretty sure Dustin Bowder said at one point that the queen buff was meant to help against reactor hellion openings, because "they were too versatile" and the usual mumbo jumbo. Its allot better for Dustin Bowder to said that than to say that they want to prevent mass roach in two match ups. | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On July 21 2012 02:24 derpinator wrote: They are never going to revert the queen range, that buff was not meant for ZVT at all. The reason blizzard gave queens +2 range against ground whas to give the zerg player a counter to mass roach instead of going mass roach themselves in ZVZ. If blizzard does revert the queen range than ZVZ and ZVP will all be about mass roach and this doesnt make SC2 an exciting game to watch at all. So the queen range whas about letting this game survive in e-sports and terrans got screwed in the meantime and they where already the weakest race even before the buff. You're kidding right? This game is at the "height of boring" to watch right now. I just cancelled my NASL subcription after it ended last weekend. Not because the staff did a poor job with the event, but b/c the STOG has changed to PvZ, ZvZ, and PvP. Terran has dropped off the grid. Not only are there very few Terran's left because of these neverending buffs to other races, but PvZ is so boring with 2-base all-ins. Forget balance, if we just look at the entertainment factor, watching the same build from only two races is not my cup of tea. I'll re-subscribe when Blizzard gets its *stuff* together. | ||
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Toastie.NL
Netherlands232 Posts
On July 21 2012 02:33 derpinator wrote: Its allot better for Dustin Bowder to said that than to say that they want to prevent mass roach in two match ups. Ling Infestor beats mass Roach in ZvZ ; Ling Infestor/ Ling Muta are valid compositions ZvP Also, terran has to make marines in every matchup because pretty much every other unit get hardcountered to hard. What's the problem? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 21 2012 02:24 derpinator wrote: They are never going to revert the queen range, that buff was not meant for ZVT at all. The reason blizzard gave queens +2 range against ground whas to give the zerg player a counter to mass roach instead of going mass roach themselves in ZVZ. If blizzard does revert the queen range than ZVZ and ZVP will all be about mass roach and this doesnt make SC2 an exciting game to watch at all. So the queen range whas about letting this game survive in e-sports and terrans got screwed in the meantime and they where already the weakest race even before the buff. The buff was meant to make it easier for zergs to spread creep against hellion contains and break those. Well, the thing got out of hand and instead of shortening the hellion contains and getting a bit more creep, zergs are now doing completly different builds (3hatch with mass queens and completly gasless). I agree that for ZvZ the patch wasn't too bad (you can now snipe 1-2 extra banelings in a ling/bling fight if you control well), yet it's a mirror matchup which can't be imbalanced at the first place, ling/bling fights are awesome too watch and play (so why patch them) and those rushes can be scouted and countered quite well. And big roach armies did and do exist, but you would always transition into infestors and hydras. That doesn't mean that those ling/bling/infestor-->ultra styles would cease to exist. For PvZ I hardly see any differences. Canonrushes are easier to stop, which is a good thing and denying scouting inside of your base has become a bit easier, but there is not a lot to see in the first place, as you only have to scout the gas before the queen pops and then wait if it is 3hatch, else build a thousand canons, go for a coffee and wait until the "You have won --> Score Screen" pops up. So I don't see a huge problem for zergs if Protoss are now able to *maybe* see the roach warren again, which they expect anyways. And well, I don't get what you are talking about. ZvP is already roach only in the midgame, most of the time. Nerfing queen range doesn't change that roaches are the only costefficient/safe units against upgrade+gateway rushes, after you delayed every other tech for ages with the 3hatch opening. (though mixed in lings are good as well) Also it doesn't make big roach (/ling) attacks any worse. And Terran was not the weakest race in the game. Terrans had a bit of trouble after Protoss developed 2*Forge builds and all the follow up Protoss builds that evolved from the *new* metagame in PvT, but they are dealing with it quite well now. For TvZ quite a lot of people would say that Terran was even favored prepatch against those 2hatch tech builds zergs did and at least in my experience quite a lot of Terrans on ladder (and also pros like Demuslim in that interview) said that they felt very confident about TvZ. | ||
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gTank
Austria2551 Posts
On July 21 2012 03:04 Big J wrote: The buff was meant to make it easier for zergs to spread creep against hellion contains and break those. Well, the thing got out of hand and instead of shortening the hellion contains and getting a bit more creep, zergs are now doing completly different builds (3hatch with mass queens and completly gasless). I agree that for ZvZ the patch wasn't too bad (you can now snipe 1-2 extra banelings in a ling/bling fight if you control well), yet it's a mirror matchup which can't be imbalanced at the first place, ling/bling fights are awesome too watch and play (so why patch them) and those rushes can be scouted and countered quite well. And big roach armies did and do exist, but you would always transition into infestors and hydras. That doesn't mean that those ling/bling/infestor-->ultra styles would cease to exist. For PvZ I hardly see any differences. Canonrushes are easier to stop, which is a good thing and denying scouting inside of your base has become a bit easier, but there is not a lot to see in the first place, as you only have to scout the gas before the queen pops and then wait if it is 3hatch, else build a thousand canons, go for a coffee and wait until the "You have won --> Score Screen" pops up. So I don't see a huge problem for zergs if Protoss are now able to *maybe* see the roach warren again, which they expect anyways. And well, I don't get what you are talking about. ZvP is already roach only in the midgame, most of the time. Nerfing queen range doesn't change that roaches are the only costefficient/safe units against upgrade+gateway rushes, after you delayed every other tech for ages with the 3hatch opening. (though mixed in lings are good as well) Also it doesn't make big roach (/ling) attacks any worse. And Terran was not the weakest race in the game. Terrans had a bit of trouble after Protoss developed 2*Forge builds and all the follow up Protoss builds that evolved from the *new* metagame in PvT. For TvZ quite a lot of people would say that Terran was even favored prepatch against those 2hatch tech builds zergs did and at least in my experience quite a lot of Terrans on ladder (and also pros like Demuslim in that interview) said that they felt very confident about TvZ. That's one way to take stuff out of context, he said he was confident in the past. He also said it's ridiculous that Terrans that are simply better at sc2 are losing to Zerg right now. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 21 2012 03:08 gTank wrote: That's one way to take stuff out of context, he said he was confident in the past. He also said it's ridiculous that Terrans that are simply better at sc2 are losing to Zerg right now. I didn't say he said something about Terran's being favored. I said he (and others) were confident. So Terran was probably not UP in the matchup. Else he would not have blamed the patch for it. And then I said, others even saw it being Terran favored. (obviously at least blizzard thought that and listening to Leenock commentating "imba imba" and NesTea tweeting with DRG about balance, I think it's quite safe to say that there were people who thought that) | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 21 2012 03:20 Big J wrote: I didn't say he said something about Terran's being favored. I said he (and others) were confident. So Terran was probably not UP in the matchup. Else he would not have blamed the patch for it. And then I said, others even saw it being Terran favored. (obviously at least blizzard thought that and listening to Leenock commentating "imba imba" and NesTea tweeting with DRG about balance, I think it's quite safe to say that there were people who thought that) DRG has said on many occasions that he's confident in TvZ. Besides, I'm pretty sure nobody ever tweeted about the Hellion opener being the source of everyone's woes, especially when the statistics actually showed Zerg in the lead. | ||
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