EPTAs for TvZ and PvZ, the Terran or Protoss can be maxed out and ahead on everything, but if the T or P army gets fungaled, it's all over. They would not have the time or resources to rebuild a max army unlike Zerg who has cheap and fast building units and has the ability to max after max after max. The problem with T/PvZ is fungal growth. If that spell hits the opponent army, it's gg. Zergs rely too much on fungal and nothing else. Every pro game I have seen where the Zerg tries to go Muta-Ling-Bane they lose miserably unless the Terran or Protoss mess up. Every game, unless the Zerg fucks up, that the Zerg uses an infestor build, they win the game. I've seen a Ling-Infestor army that simply beats a maxed Protoss army with HT, Colossi, Stalker, Sentries, and Zealots or a Terran army with Thors, Tanks, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, and Medivacs, all simply going up, use chain fungal growth, and win the game purely on a micro-take-away spell.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 290
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s1ege
Korea (South)123 Posts
As for TvZ and PvZ, the Terran or Protoss can be maxed out and ahead on everything, but if the T or P army gets fungaled, it's all over. They would not have the time or resources to rebuild a max army unlike Zerg who has cheap and fast building units and has the ability to max after max after max. The problem with T/PvZ is fungal growth. If that spell hits the opponent army, it's gg. Zergs rely too much on fungal and nothing else. Every pro game I have seen where the Zerg tries to go Muta-Ling-Bane they lose miserably unless the Terran or Protoss mess up. Every game, unless the Zerg fucks up, that the Zerg uses an infestor build, they win the game. I've seen a Ling-Infestor army that simply beats a maxed Protoss army with HT, Colossi, Stalker, Sentries, and Zealots or a Terran army with Thors, Tanks, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, and Medivacs, all simply going up, use chain fungal growth, and win the game purely on a micro-take-away spell. | ||
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
Looks pretty zerg dominated to me. | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
That is pretty good evidence. If this keeps up then I totally agree. Maybe TLPD just takes longer than 2 months to adjust their rankings of players, because TLPD does not seem to reflect the imbalance. The other possibility is we just do not have enough data. The one concern I have with that data is that a lot of the smaller tourneys are not representative of a top level of player. WCS from most countries and the SEA tournaments do not have many top players. We are left with 5 Premier tournaments which look bad and then the Major tournaments which look okay. Also we have no GSL's in the data. MVP won the last GSL after the patch, but I think he did not face a Zerg after the Queen buff, so that would get an asterisk. | ||
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-TesteR-
Canada1165 Posts
On July 19 2012 02:53 Bagi wrote: No its not. Terran cannot trade cost efficiently against zealot/archon/colossi armies. Lategame is a joke. Absolutely hilarious though how you keep saying this while complaining about zerg being OP. Kind of like how protoss cannot trade efficiently against bio early/mid game before they have T3 tech. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
On July 19 2012 06:28 -TesteR- wrote: Kind of like how protoss cannot trade efficiently against bio early/mid game before they have T3 tech. which is just the retarded asymmetrical balance dustin browder talks about and thinks is a good idea | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
On July 19 2012 07:11 Shiori wrote: PvT is fine. I don't really need to discuss it anymore since it's not actually a problem at the highest level and since plenty of players are renowned for having good TvP. It's definitely difficult if you're not top Masters, though, just because of the high mechanical requirement. PvT is just hard regardless. Top masters or not. It's not overly imbalanced, but it is weird that terran doesn't have a a unit that can really make up for supply differences in engagements while zerg and protoss do. As Artosis would say, "Yea Taeja has better upgrades, but storm negates that". | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
That's really the big problem I see | ||
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Sabu113
United States11112 Posts
On July 19 2012 12:02 Chaggi wrote: IMO, at the highest level, TvP is mostly balanced except for the fact that with a big bank, toss can live through losing their army in front of their base, but Terrans will just die if they lose their army at their production facilities. That's really the big problem I see The flip side is unless the toss has a critical mass the smal group of terran units are free to kill whatever they want at minimal risk until power units are operational. There are definite trade offs in the late game trade. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On July 19 2012 12:00 shockaslim wrote: PvT is just hard regardless. Top masters or not. It's not overly imbalanced, but it is weird that terran doesn't have a a unit that can really make up for supply differences in engagements while zerg and protoss do. As Artosis would say, "Yea Taeja has better upgrades, but storm negates that". You're forgetting about such units as the Marine, the Marauder, and the Medivac. No, they can't turn a 120-180 difference around, but they can easily account for a 160-180. They're really, really good units. The core of the Terran army is stronger than the core of the Protoss army. It's just that Protoss has better support units. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 19 2012 13:25 Acritter wrote: You're forgetting about such units as the Marine, the Marauder, and the Medivac. No, they can't turn a 120-180 difference around, but they can easily account for a 160-180. They're really, really good units. The core of the Terran army is stronger than the core of the Protoss army. It's just that Protoss has better support units. Protoss also has the ability to instantly resupply directly on the battlefield and thus the numbers advantage in every longer battle. You just need to choose the right unit to warp in. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On July 19 2012 03:21 Shiori wrote: Then why does MKP say he wants to play against Protoss Because it means he's not playing against a Zerg. Duh. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On July 19 2012 13:06 Sabu113 wrote: The flip side is unless the toss has a critical mass the smal group of terran units are free to kill whatever they want at minimal risk until power units are operational. There are definite trade offs in the late game trade. Rather, I guess it's just I can't push the Protoss in the same way they can punish me. If Terrans win a large battle, it's a really really big gamble if you push in, and your units are all yellow/red and a templar pulls of a storm or two and you just lose any advantage. | ||
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iremnant3847
Taiwan269 Posts
On July 19 2012 14:56 Chaggi wrote: Rather, I guess it's just I can't push the Protoss in the same way they can punish me. If Terrans win a large battle, it's a really really big gamble if you push in, and your units are all yellow/red and a templar pulls of a storm or two and you just lose any advantage. While I do understand that Protoss certainly has quite a lot of AOE, and that Protoss certainly has an advantage in the late game due to quick reinforcement, I think their slow movement speed is something that can certainly be exploited. Terrans can certainly punish Protoss players with quick speedy/multi drops or baiting (forcing army to clean up a drop, then charging in with a snipe force to destroy key structures). I am sure there are many more strategies Terran can implement to constantly wear down a Protoss so he never reaches a decent, comfortable army. In regards to your point, I think how you can solve that problem is to simply scout ahead and use a very small group of units to take down High templar, rather than cramming your army into a ramp without knowing what is ahead. While Protoss can certainly reinforce their army at an alarmingly quick rate using Warp Gates, it takes quite a while to pump out key AOE units such as the templar and Colossus. On a side note, I do think Terrans have to plan and micro very carefully against Protoss compositions, and I respect people who attempt to do so. However, it does not mean that the matchup is broken. | ||
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MiraculiX
Norway22 Posts
On a side note, I do think Terrans have to plan and micro very carefully against Protoss compositions, and I respect people who attempt to do so. However, it does not mean that the matchup is broken. Well, to me it kind of does. It is then a requirement for the terran to completely outplay his opponent both macro and microwise. And it also an issue that in TvP if a protoss loses a battle he is going to be able to reproduce quick enough to defend. But if terran take a bad fight it's GG. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 19 2012 22:23 DemigodcelpH wrote: Anyone can see that PvT is definitely still Protoss favored. Terran just isn't as disadvantaged as they are in ZvT now, so it has kind of fallen out of the spotlight. Actually, it's that at the highest level PvT contests have remained very close with a variety of builds and an evolving style. Nobody really Gate/Nexus/Nexus anymore, for example, or at least not as much. | ||
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roflcopter420
Sweden168 Posts
On July 19 2012 22:23 DemigodcelpH wrote: Anyone can see that PvT is definitely still Protoss favored. Terran just isn't as disadvantaged as they are in ZvT now, so it has kind of fallen out of the spotlight. LOL terran has stim, so OP. Protoss has nothing like that. | ||
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WaKai
Canada88 Posts
strat counters Composition of units Units coutering other units BW wasn't like that, because it was just straight up damage, which in the end made the game easier to balance. Blizz put a restriction on themselves when they implemented this gimicky design. As it's very eye catching but only puts an illusion of strat exploration. But instead it really is, that this unit has a role and if you use for something else it sucks, this limits the amount of strategies and overall balance. What i'm surprised about is that blizzard has never bothered playing around with the upgrades. For example, In order for toss to deal with terran in the early game more efficiently they can do: level 1 armor = +1.5 armor (instead of 1) level 2 armor = +.5 armor (instead of 1) level 3 armor= +.5 armor (instead of 1) what this does? Make's it easier for terran in the late game, but also negates the damage terran can do in the early game a bit more. This doesn't effect pvz because roaches have slow attacks, so the gw timings pushes will be a little stronger Let's be honest, Terran and toss are lacking in the late game.(i heard sombody mention this in this thread, but have changed it a bit) This is also to adjust with the increase of the size of the maps, as well as to stay even with Z production late. Carrier= 70 seconds from 120 void ray= 50 seconds from 60 Battle cruiser= 60 seconds from 90 Banshee= 50 seconds from 60 Raven = 50 seconds from 60 - Durable material removed - Corvid reactor is combined with durable material's upgrades - HSM range increased to 9 from 6 ( reason for this is that HSM is 125 energy, has to be researched and 6 range is just pathetic) Zerg: In order to reduce the amount of drones made in the early-mid game but not hinder the zerg ability to hold all ins: Larva inject gives 3 instead of 4 Larva Hatcheries now cost 250 minerals Queens= 40 seconds instead of 50 creep tumor energy cost increased from 25 to 50 Thats all for now. TBH i wish blizzard would fire their balance team and bribe riots balance team to come fix this game. As riots balance team actually looks at the different stages of the game, and are much more willing to experiment. Blizz have such a great tool at their disposal ( the ptr) and yet they don't use it. Tryal and error is in this case, the best way to balance this game. | ||
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