|
On April 16 2012 19:29 Putain_De_Putois wrote:
Why do i never see terrans using a few tanks with the bio army against protoss ? I mean, they could keep the HTs in the backlines for example, to allow easier EMPs.
I saw MVP do that earlier, it's actually very good against Colossi, too. You don't want to overcommit to tanks, so you only produce 5 max, but they do the job quite well. Ideal for 2 base pushes!
As for Hellion runbys and drops, they seem to simply not work anymore. 3 Spines + a Queen can kill a small group while losing 2 or 3 drones, any bigger group can be dealt with by a handful of Roaches with speed. Infestors also work very well, since they can fungal your Hellions to let the Roaches clean it up... 1000 minerals to roast 4 workers isn't a very good deal.
The problem before was that people would only go Muta/Ling/Bling and kind of panic when Hellions appeared. They coul roast Speedlings all day, damaging larva production and forcing the Zerg to throw away minerals. The panic-mode also created some nice situations where a player would send 20 workers in a straight line to another expansion, while keeping them mining reduces the casualties.
I've been meching for more than a month in Diamond against Diamond and Masters players, and it just doesn't work anymore. And since the Zerg has little worries to have concerning his base, he can actively deny your fourth (VERY hard to defend on the new map pool). I won't say that mech doesn't work anymore, but mech's harass capacities have been completely shut down, at least at my level. This and the popularity of BL comps, and my W/R has dropped around 30% at best.
|
On April 16 2012 21:21 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 19:29 Putain_De_Putois wrote:
Why do i never see terrans using a few tanks with the bio army against protoss ? I mean, they could keep the HTs in the backlines for example, to allow easier EMPs. I saw MVP do that earlier, it's actually very good against Colossi, too. You don't want to overcommit to tanks, so you only produce 5 max, but they do the job quite well. Ideal for 2 base pushes! As for Hellion runbys and drops, they seem to simply not work anymore. 3 Spines + a Queen can kill a small group while losing 2 or 3 drones, any bigger group can be dealt with by a handful of Roaches with speed. Infestors also work very well, since they can fungal your Hellions to let the Roaches clean it up... 1000 minerals to roast 4 workers isn't a very good deal. The problem before was that people would only go Muta/Ling/Bling and kind of panic when Hellions appeared. They coul roast Speedlings all day, damaging larva production and forcing the Zerg to throw away minerals. The panic-mode also created some nice situations where a player would send 20 workers in a straight line to another expansion, while keeping them mining reduces the casualties. I've been meching for more than a month in Diamond against Diamond and Masters players, and it just doesn't work anymore. And since the Zerg has little worries to have concerning his base, he can actively deny your fourth (VERY hard to defend on the new map pool). I won't say that mech doesn't work anymore, but mech's harass capacities have been completely shut down, at least at my level. This and the popularity of BL comps, and my W/R has dropped around 30% at best.
That's all theyre really good for in TvP, some sort of 1-2 base timing attack, after the 15 min mark when chargelots/archons are out they literally become worthless, theyre are just way too expensive, too fragile, dont benefit from bio upgrades (obviously)
|
On April 15 2012 23:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. OK, I agree with the problem, but I also want to emphasize on what you wrote in the solution, that roaches right now are terribly strong in the ZvP midgame and too weak in the lategame. And I want to connect this to the other unit that is on the same techpath and has similar problems (just that it's already not too strong in the midgame): the hydralisk. So I'd like to change your proposal like this: Problem:The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake, while the Zerg gets stuck on a very supplyinefficient composition if he does go roach (what it seems like, he has to) but doesn't/can't do damage to the Protoss.Solution:Increase Roach costs to 100/25 (~+20%costs) and buff their health by +15/25 to 160/170 (+10-15%health, but no damage increase!), making them lesscostefficient overall (midgame nerf), but better in the lategame, especially in their role to tank damage for hydralisks. Move Grooved Spines to Hivetech and make it 200/200 for +2 (hydralisk)range. --> roach(/hydra) nerf in the midgame, but better hivetech/maxed "ranged" army; more need to mix in hydralisks, but also more gain when mixing in those very expensive semiartillery glasscanons. Side Effects:Roach/Hydra-->Broodlord/Infestor might become too good (though hydracosts might also just block the possibility to mass those), so possibly nerf BLs slightly in health and/or damage, if this occurs. Roach openers might become harder to pull of in all MUs.
OK, so I'm watching GSL Leenock vs HerO right now, and can someone please tell me how it would be wrong to buff hydras, nerf roaches costefficiency a bit? Just as examples, I would like to go through what I would hope to get out of such buffs as examples from game one and two of that series:
+ Show Spoiler +
Game 1:
Hero goes for 2void rays+1phoenix, denies scouting adds a Warp Prism and does a 3 sentry drop in the main of Leenock. Leenock is not prepositioned, and even with a small group of ling/roach+1-2queens in his main, he should not be able to prevent Hero from dropping off the sentries, dropping the FF on the ramp (killing the small group of units with voids, while the sentries go back in the prism and the warping in starts). The unit he would need at this point, is hydralisks that can both attack the prism, the air units and can combat ground units as well. As it stands, going hydralisks is not useful right now against any other standard rush, nor is it good aggressively due the hydras slow speed AND hydras lose in a turtlegame, due to their inefficientness in the latemidgame or lategame.
Again, "blindly useful" Hydras wouldn't change that he loses this base if a players is not positioned properly against such an attack, but with their antiair attack, their bigger range (than roaches) and their higher larvaefficientness when building units inside the trapped base, it would make this situation a little more forgiveable. Add to that, that Hero could even harass Leenocks natural from the ramp and Leenock couldn't really do anything against it.
(putting a comment here, that I neither think that this strategy or the matchup are imbalanced and that I was really impressed by how well Hero played it, but from a design point of view, it is stupid how Leenock is out of position once and from there on has no chance at all to do anything to safe his main base but doing the right thing against Heros strategy - mobile antiair - is not really available)
Game 2:
Hero takes a fast third and goes to 7gates with blink, upgrades and canons. Leenock overruns it with roach/ling rally at the natural and the third (and nice burrow micro).
I absolutly can't see how a Protoss is supposed to hold such attacks with a fast third base with how costefficient roaches are. Hero already played mass units on low tech with statics. There is nothing greedy about it, and he played as defensive as possible. Such a defense should just hold, I just can't see a reason why roach/ling should be that costefficient when attacking. I don't mind if Hero dies when he does that but cuts 1-2gates and goes for a robo instead or a Dark Shrine or Templar Archives or Stargates. But if he goes for pure army + statics to back up his 3rd, this should neither kill a good player like Hero that didn't blunder in that engagment, nor should the zerg just lose in the case of a retreat, due to supplyinefficientness and how it is impossible to follow up T1-T2 roach "ranged" tech with T2-T3 hydralisk "ranged" tech - though I'm absolutly OK with the Zerg being behind in such a situation, but that's not how it is right now, it's do or die, once Protoss is safe on those 3bases and starts colossi, you must not have a lot of supply in roaches.
Again, what I'm asking for is not a change of balance in the matchup - and it might not work as easily as I said (hydras might still need an additional buff, roach/hydra/broodlord might be too strong, early Protoss attacks getting even harder to stop) - , I just want to "smooth out" the midgame - less allins possible for Protoss due to an antiair high damage unit being part of the standard zerg composition while Zergs have a harder time attacking Protoss thirds, but building units and maybe even putting on a little bit of uncommited pressure and "just having an army" becomes possible and more forgiving for zerg.
|
On April 19 2012 20:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 23:13 Big J wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. OK, I agree with the problem, but I also want to emphasize on what you wrote in the solution, that roaches right now are terribly strong in the ZvP midgame and too weak in the lategame. And I want to connect this to the other unit that is on the same techpath and has similar problems (just that it's already not too strong in the midgame): the hydralisk. So I'd like to change your proposal like this: Problem:The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake, while the Zerg gets stuck on a very supplyinefficient composition if he does go roach (what it seems like, he has to) but doesn't/can't do damage to the Protoss.Solution:Increase Roach costs to 100/25 (~+20%costs) and buff their health by +15/25 to 160/170 (+10-15%health, but no damage increase!), making them lesscostefficient overall (midgame nerf), but better in the lategame, especially in their role to tank damage for hydralisks. Move Grooved Spines to Hivetech and make it 200/200 for +2 (hydralisk)range. --> roach(/hydra) nerf in the midgame, but better hivetech/maxed "ranged" army; more need to mix in hydralisks, but also more gain when mixing in those very expensive semiartillery glasscanons. Side Effects:Roach/Hydra-->Broodlord/Infestor might become too good (though hydracosts might also just block the possibility to mass those), so possibly nerf BLs slightly in health and/or damage, if this occurs. Roach openers might become harder to pull of in all MUs. OK, so I'm watching GSL Leenock vs HerO right now, and can someone please tell me how it would be wrong to +hydras, -roaches costefficiency a bit? Just as examples, I would like to go through what I would hope to get out of such buffs as examples from game one and two of that series: + Show Spoiler +
Game 1:
Hero goes for 2void rays+1phoenix, denies scouting adds a Warp Prism and does a 3 sentry drop in the main of Leenock. Leenock is not prepositioned, and even with a small group of ling/roach+1-2queens in his main, he should not be able to prevent Hero from dropping off the sentries, dropping the FF on the ramp (killing the small group of units with voids, while the sentries go back in the prism and the warping in starts). The unit he would need at this point, is hydralisks that can both attack the prism, the air units and can combat ground units as well. As it stands, going hydralisks is not useful right now against any other standard rush, nor is it good aggressively due the hydras slow speed AND hydras lose in a turtlegame, due to their inefficientness in the latemidgame or lategame.
Again, "blindly useful" Hydras wouldn't change that he loses this base if a players is not positioned properly against such an attack, but with their antiair attack, their bigger range (than roaches) and their higher larvaefficientness when building units inside the trapped base, it would make this situation a little more forgiveable. Add to that, that Hero could even harass Leenocks natural from the ramp and Leenock couldn't really do anything against it.
(putting a comment here, that I neither think that this strategy or the matchup are imbalanced and that I was really impressed by how well Hero played it, but from a design point of view, it is stupid how Leenock is out of position once and from there on has no chance at all to do anything to safe his main base but doing the right thing against Heros strategy - mobile antiair - is not really available)
Game 2:
Hero takes a fast third and goes to 7gates with blink, upgrades and canons. Leenock overruns it with roach/ling rally at the natural and the third (and nice burrow micro).
I absolutly can't see how a Protoss is supposed to hold such attacks with a fast third base with how costefficient roaches are. Hero already played mass units on low tech with statics. There is nothing greedy about it, and he played as defensive as possible. Such a defense should just hold, I just can't see a reason why roach/ling should be that costefficient when attacking. I don't mind if Hero dies when he does that but cuts 1-2gates and goes for a robo instead or a Dark Shrine or Templar Archives or Stargates. But if he goes for pure army + statics to back up his 3rd, this should neither kill a good player like Hero that didn't blunder in that engagment, nor should the zerg just lose in the case of a retreat, due to supplyinefficientness and how it is impossible to follow up T1-T2 roach "ranged" tech with T2-T3 hydralisk "ranged" tech - though I'm absolutly OK with the Zerg being behind in such a situation, but that's not how it is right now, it's do or die, once Protoss is safe on those 3bases and starts colossi, you must not have a lot of supply in roaches.
Again, what I'm asking for is not a change of balance in the matchup - and it might not work as easily as I said (hydras might still need an additional buff, roach/hydra/broodlord might be too strong, early Protoss attacks getting even harder to stop) - , I just want to "smooth out" the midgame - less allins possible for Protoss due to an antiair high damage unit being part of the standard zerg composition while Zergs have a harder time attacking Protoss thirds, but building units and maybe even putting on a little bit of uncommited pressure and "just having an army" becomes possible and more forgiving for zerg.
While I can't disagree with some sort of hyrda buff, a roach buff is ridiculous, they cost 75/25, have 145 health, a range attack of 4, what more do you want really? They are a super cost effective unit early/mid game
|
I've been thinking alot about those sentry drops and those are actually something that is breaking down the game totaly vs a Zerg. I mean, it's like 90% of the times it happens the game is just over for the Zerg cuz the protoss is always so well walled in at home that he can defend a counterattack while he is dropping and forcefielding the Zerg's ramp.
Solution to solve this problem?
1. You can not FF on the ramp anymore?
2. You can not FF on the creep?
3. You can not FF on the ramp while there is creep there?
4. Remove the sentry in HotS?
Sometimes I think the unit is just breaking down the game vs Zerg in general, maybe not at midpro and play on ladder etc, but in the very top at GSL / MLG, people who actually understands the game the best, the unit is just too easy to handle and block out the Zerg progamers to ever win a game unless the Toss screws up with the FF. Nothing new to say, we all have known it for a long time, but people need to pay some more attention to this I think at least.
This Sentry vs Zerg needs more hype to make Blizzard take some action and solve the problem.
|
On April 19 2012 21:12 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 20:56 Big J wrote:On April 15 2012 23:13 Big J wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. OK, I agree with the problem, but I also want to emphasize on what you wrote in the solution, that roaches right now are terribly strong in the ZvP midgame and too weak in the lategame. And I want to connect this to the other unit that is on the same techpath and has similar problems (just that it's already not too strong in the midgame): the hydralisk. So I'd like to change your proposal like this: Problem:The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake, while the Zerg gets stuck on a very supplyinefficient composition if he does go roach (what it seems like, he has to) but doesn't/can't do damage to the Protoss.Solution:Increase Roach costs to 100/25 (~+20%costs) and buff their health by +15/25 to 160/170 (+10-15%health, but no damage increase!), making them lesscostefficient overall (midgame nerf), but better in the lategame, especially in their role to tank damage for hydralisks. Move Grooved Spines to Hivetech and make it 200/200 for +2 (hydralisk)range. --> roach(/hydra) nerf in the midgame, but better hivetech/maxed "ranged" army; more need to mix in hydralisks, but also more gain when mixing in those very expensive semiartillery glasscanons. Side Effects:Roach/Hydra-->Broodlord/Infestor might become too good (though hydracosts might also just block the possibility to mass those), so possibly nerf BLs slightly in health and/or damage, if this occurs. Roach openers might become harder to pull of in all MUs. OK, so I'm watching GSL Leenock vs HerO right now, and can someone please tell me how it would be wrong to +hydras, -roaches costefficiency a bit? Just as examples, I would like to go through what I would hope to get out of such buffs as examples from game one and two of that series: + Show Spoiler +
Game 1:
Hero goes for 2void rays+1phoenix, denies scouting adds a Warp Prism and does a 3 sentry drop in the main of Leenock. Leenock is not prepositioned, and even with a small group of ling/roach+1-2queens in his main, he should not be able to prevent Hero from dropping off the sentries, dropping the FF on the ramp (killing the small group of units with voids, while the sentries go back in the prism and the warping in starts). The unit he would need at this point, is hydralisks that can both attack the prism, the air units and can combat ground units as well. As it stands, going hydralisks is not useful right now against any other standard rush, nor is it good aggressively due the hydras slow speed AND hydras lose in a turtlegame, due to their inefficientness in the latemidgame or lategame.
Again, "blindly useful" Hydras wouldn't change that he loses this base if a players is not positioned properly against such an attack, but with their antiair attack, their bigger range (than roaches) and their higher larvaefficientness when building units inside the trapped base, it would make this situation a little more forgiveable. Add to that, that Hero could even harass Leenocks natural from the ramp and Leenock couldn't really do anything against it.
(putting a comment here, that I neither think that this strategy or the matchup are imbalanced and that I was really impressed by how well Hero played it, but from a design point of view, it is stupid how Leenock is out of position once and from there on has no chance at all to do anything to safe his main base but doing the right thing against Heros strategy - mobile antiair - is not really available)
Game 2:
Hero takes a fast third and goes to 7gates with blink, upgrades and canons. Leenock overruns it with roach/ling rally at the natural and the third (and nice burrow micro).
I absolutly can't see how a Protoss is supposed to hold such attacks with a fast third base with how costefficient roaches are. Hero already played mass units on low tech with statics. There is nothing greedy about it, and he played as defensive as possible. Such a defense should just hold, I just can't see a reason why roach/ling should be that costefficient when attacking. I don't mind if Hero dies when he does that but cuts 1-2gates and goes for a robo instead or a Dark Shrine or Templar Archives or Stargates. But if he goes for pure army + statics to back up his 3rd, this should neither kill a good player like Hero that didn't blunder in that engagment, nor should the zerg just lose in the case of a retreat, due to supplyinefficientness and how it is impossible to follow up T1-T2 roach "ranged" tech with T2-T3 hydralisk "ranged" tech - though I'm absolutly OK with the Zerg being behind in such a situation, but that's not how it is right now, it's do or die, once Protoss is safe on those 3bases and starts colossi, you must not have a lot of supply in roaches.
Again, what I'm asking for is not a change of balance in the matchup - and it might not work as easily as I said (hydras might still need an additional buff, roach/hydra/broodlord might be too strong, early Protoss attacks getting even harder to stop) - , I just want to "smooth out" the midgame - less allins possible for Protoss due to an antiair high damage unit being part of the standard zerg composition while Zergs have a harder time attacking Protoss thirds, but building units and maybe even putting on a little bit of uncommited pressure and "just having an army" becomes possible and more forgiving for zerg. While I can't disagree with some sort of hyrda buff, a roach buff is ridiculous, they cost 75/25, have 145 health, a range attack of 4, what more do you want really? They are a super cost effective unit early/mid game
Did you read it properly? I'm asking for a decrease in costefficiency for roaches. Though it is discussable to which degree my suggestion does that, I'm absolutly certain that +25 minerals per roach (=+25% overall, or ~20% if you weight gas more) for +15 to +25 health (which is 10-17% increase in health, NO DAMAGE INCREASE) does decrease costefficiency quite a bit.
Just a bit of math:
Now: 20 roaches with 145health for 75/25 = 1500/500 for 2900HP and 160dps
Then: 16 roaches with 165health for 100/25 = 1600/400 for 2640 HP and 128dps
--> less costefficient, more need to invest in units that can help with dps-ing
On the other hand, when you max out and costnumbers don't matter that much anymore
Now: 30 roaches with 145health for 2supply = 60supply for 4350HP and 240dps
Then: 30 roaches with 165health for 2supply = 60supply for 4950HP and 240dps
--> more supplyefficient and more importantly: more beefy when tanking for hydralisks
|
On April 19 2012 21:20 Gackt_ wrote:
I've been thinking alot about those sentry drops and those are actually something that is breaking down the game totaly vs a Zerg. I mean, it's like 90% of the times it happens the game is just over for the Zerg cuz the protoss is always so well walled in at home that he can defend a counterattack while he is dropping and forcefielding the Zerg's ramp.
Solution to solve this problem?
1. You can not FF on the ramp anymore?
2. You can not FF on the creep?
3. You can not FF on the ramp while there is creep there?
4. Remove the sentry in HotS?
Sometimes I think the unit is just breaking down the game vs Zerg in general, maybe not at midpro and play on ladder etc, but in the very top at GSL / MLG, people who actually understands the game the best, the unit is just too easy to handle and block out the Zerg progamers to ever win a game unless the Toss screws up with the FF. Nothing new to say, we all have known it for a long time, but people need to pay some more attention to this I think at least.
This Sentry vs Zerg needs more hype to make Blizzard take some action and solve the problem.
1. Destroys PvP
2. Destroys ZvP
3. ???
4. Bingo!
I have the same opinion, Sentries and Warpgates make the game hard to balance, and are pretty much the problem of all Protoss matchups, the game would be better if they removed them and rebalanced the game with small buffs for P if necessary. This would however change and reset the early game completely, which is something Blizzard may want to avoid at all costs. As Zerg is concerned, I do agree that this race makes no sense, units are too one dimensional, little to no synergy. So maybe Zerg should get a massive redesign, but with Protoss there might be something you can do without messing with early game. I will post this a bit later, maybe in it's own thread.
|
@BigJ you are making the problem worse, Zerg is cost inefficient enough. They already have to defend with worse units which makes it that they need a much better economy in order to stay even with the opponent. A consequence is that the maxed Zerg army is substantially worse than the enemy max, so they can't afford to let the game go into maxed army fights at all. What Blizzard needs to do is converge Zerg with the other ones rather than continue on the current path. I may be completely obtuse, but I think that even food counts should mean even armies overall, with balanced compositions.
|
I'm a protoss and I agree sentries need work. If I'm in vZ in masters I can place good FF and not die, but if I mess up once I'm dead. My point is with good FF, protoss is really powerful, but bad FF make them so much worse. I would agree with removing sentries to avoid something so make or break, but something else would have to be done about early game versus any matchup.
|
On April 19 2012 21:42 50bani wrote:
@BigJ you are making the problem worse, Zerg is cost inefficient enough. They already have to defend with worse units which makes it that they need a much better economy in order to stay even with the opponent. A consequence is that the maxed Zerg army is substantially worse than the enemy max, so they can't afford to let the game go into maxed army fights at all. What Blizzard needs to do is converge Zerg with the other ones rather than continue on the current path. I may be completely obtuse, but I think that even food counts should mean even armies overall, with balanced compositions.
na, roaches (and even zerglings) are costefficient, but they cost the same supply as gateway units. That's why we see Zergs with +40 supply leads in the midgame, because that basically means that zerg is somewhat even in army costwise.
The problem rather is, that with that +40 supply, zerg maxes and is "en par" with a 160supply Protoss (or when a Protoss doesn't have Immortals and Colossi or HTs even ahead). Then Protoss maxes and his army is just worth much more and therefore crushes through the zerg army and the only thing zerg can do, is to not go for this kind of supplyinefficient army to begin with if you can't straight up attack him - that's why every zerg in the world relies on air once a Protoss has colossi.
Zerg can very well go 2base vs Protoss and be safe and costefficient right now, but then Protoss can just sit on his ass get colossi, get a third and win in the higher supply - somewhat cheesy 2base mutalisk play aside.
|
I'm not sure about the cost efficiency, I see Zergs way behind on the resources lost tab all the way. You can think about how Zerglings and Roaches work in small battles, or without force fields, and maybe you are right, but in practice this is not the case. This is why I think Zerg needs better units earlier in the game rather than later. The issue is that they can drone so fast that the designers feel they should need a better economy just to stay even so they gave them shitty stuff.
|
4. Remove the sentry in HotS?
Ding Ding! We have a winner! If the sentry isnt removed or if the maps dont change so that protoss cannot indefinitely keep you in or out of your base I will lose all faith in Blizzard
|
On April 23 2012 00:38 teamhozac wrote:Ding Ding! We have a winner! If the sentry isnt removed or if the maps dont change so that protoss cannot indefinitely keep you in or out of your base I will lose all faith in Blizzard
Removing the Sentry would force Blizzard to drastically buff Zealot/Stalker early game in order to offset the loss of the Sentry. At that point you're going to have nothing but 4 gates/7 gates.
|
On April 23 2012 00:43 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 00:38 teamhozac wrote:4. Remove the sentry in HotS? Ding Ding! We have a winner! If the sentry isnt removed or if the maps dont change so that protoss cannot indefinitely keep you in or out of your base I will lose all faith in Blizzard Removing the Sentry would force Blizzard to drastically buff Zealot/Stalker early game in order to offset the loss of the Sentry. At that point you're going to have nothing but 4 gates/7 gates.
Why would that force blizzard to buff stalker/zealot?
|
On April 19 2012 21:34 50bani wrote:
I have the same opinion, Sentries and Warpgates make the game hard to balance, and are pretty much the problem of all Protoss matchups, the game would be better if they removed them and rebalanced the game with small buffs for P if necessary.
I agree with most of this. I don't think that they both have to be removed, but I think that both WG and FF have to be changed radically. The WG should either only work in the vincinity of warp prisms (upgrade for warp prism) or turned into a T3 upgrade and warping in units makes it more expensive. FF is another problem. here I would lower the gas cost of sentries to 75g, increase the cost of FFs to 100 and lower their duration by about half and maybe even make them an upgrade. (or some other way to ensure that FF is no longer the sentries main spell)
(not that I expect anything of the sort to happen...)
|
|
|
On April 23 2012 01:06 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 00:43 superstartran wrote:On April 23 2012 00:38 teamhozac wrote:4. Remove the sentry in HotS? Ding Ding! We have a winner! If the sentry isnt removed or if the maps dont change so that protoss cannot indefinitely keep you in or out of your base I will lose all faith in Blizzard Removing the Sentry would force Blizzard to drastically buff Zealot/Stalker early game in order to offset the loss of the Sentry. At that point you're going to have nothing but 4 gates/7 gates. Why would that force blizzard to buff stalker/zealot?
Because it would be impossible to hold a medivac timing, 3 rax, and all kinds of other stuff without totally sacrificing economy. Your Terran bias is, as always, amusing.
|
On April 23 2012 01:06 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 00:43 superstartran wrote:On April 23 2012 00:38 teamhozac wrote:4. Remove the sentry in HotS? Ding Ding! We have a winner! If the sentry isnt removed or if the maps dont change so that protoss cannot indefinitely keep you in or out of your base I will lose all faith in Blizzard Removing the Sentry would force Blizzard to drastically buff Zealot/Stalker early game in order to offset the loss of the Sentry. At that point you're going to have nothing but 4 gates/7 gates. Why would that force blizzard to buff stalker/zealot?
cause otherwise protoss would be crazily underpowered. FF is ridiculous, but protoss need it to be competitive. It's the same with roaches in ZvP, they are ridiculous in the mid game, but if zerg didnt have them they would never win
|
On April 19 2012 21:34 50bani wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 21:20 Gackt_ wrote:
I've been thinking alot about those sentry drops and those are actually something that is breaking down the game totaly vs a Zerg. I mean, it's like 90% of the times it happens the game is just over for the Zerg cuz the protoss is always so well walled in at home that he can defend a counterattack while he is dropping and forcefielding the Zerg's ramp.
Solution to solve this problem?
1. You can not FF on the ramp anymore?
2. You can not FF on the creep?
3. You can not FF on the ramp while there is creep there?
4. Remove the sentry in HotS?
Sometimes I think the unit is just breaking down the game vs Zerg in general, maybe not at midpro and play on ladder etc, but in the very top at GSL / MLG, people who actually understands the game the best, the unit is just too easy to handle and block out the Zerg progamers to ever win a game unless the Toss screws up with the FF. Nothing new to say, we all have known it for a long time, but people need to pay some more attention to this I think at least.
This Sentry vs Zerg needs more hype to make Blizzard take some action and solve the problem. 1. Destroys PvP 2. Destroys ZvP 3. ??? 4. Bingo! I have the same opinion, Sentries and Warpgates make the game hard to balance, and are pretty much the problem of all Protoss matchups, the game would be better if they removed them and rebalanced the game with small buffs for P if necessary. This would however change and reset the early game completely, which is something Blizzard may want to avoid at all costs. As Zerg is concerned, I do agree that this race makes no sense, units are too one dimensional, little to no synergy. So maybe Zerg should get a massive redesign, but with Protoss there might be something you can do without messing with early game. I will post this a bit later, maybe in it's own thread.
There's no reason to remove the sentry and warpgate
As per the rules of the forum, you did not consider the ramifications of your suggestions. What does Protoss do in PvP? (I'm sorry, saying remove warpgate and rework the game is NOT a viable answer). The ability to defend a 4gate hinges on forcefield (or to defend just about ANY early timing)
If you removed the sentry it would make PvT impossible. The only reason as Protoss you can hold stim pushes (and even earlier bio pushes with concussive) is because you can forcefield terran units to trap them for your zealots.
Without forcefields you couldn't zone roaches, eliminating the viability of the forge fast expand almost entirely vs Zerg, or pretty much any opener that isn't a 4gate and wants to expand. (yes, SCBW didn't have the sentry, but it also didn't have larva inject for 40 zerglings 5 minutes into a game).
Removing the sentry literally would destroy every matchup for Protoss, and require the race to be reworked from scratch.
Let's at least keep suggestions viable
EDIT; On April 23 2012 01:25 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 01:18 Shiori wrote:On April 23 2012 01:06 teamhozac wrote:On April 23 2012 00:43 superstartran wrote:On April 23 2012 00:38 teamhozac wrote:4. Remove the sentry in HotS? Ding Ding! We have a winner! If the sentry isnt removed or if the maps dont change so that protoss cannot indefinitely keep you in or out of your base I will lose all faith in Blizzard Removing the Sentry would force Blizzard to drastically buff Zealot/Stalker early game in order to offset the loss of the Sentry. At that point you're going to have nothing but 4 gates/7 gates. Why would that force blizzard to buff stalker/zealot? Because it would be impossible to hold a medivac timing, 3 rax, and all kinds of other stuff without totally sacrificing economy. Your Terran bias is, as always, amusing. If you play greedy, dont scout, and don't make the appropriate units to deal with a push, (ie: spend all your chronoboost on workers) you deserve to get punished. You shouldnt be able to just spot the push coming up your ramp and FF it and be able to hold for entire minutes while you get out an army. Conversely, you shouldnt be able to camp outside an opponents base and keep them contained with no way to get out while you rape their natural or their main. Forcefields are broken, stupid, and unnecessary
Hold on let me get this straight, a terran is saying it's unfair to be able to sit up a ramp and defend indefinitely? #wall?
Or wait, it's unfair to camp outside of an opponents base where they can't leave it safely? Hello, pot? This is kettle. You're black. I'd like to introduce you the siege tank
|
On April 23 2012 01:18 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 01:06 teamhozac wrote:On April 23 2012 00:43 superstartran wrote:On April 23 2012 00:38 teamhozac wrote:4. Remove the sentry in HotS? Ding Ding! We have a winner! If the sentry isnt removed or if the maps dont change so that protoss cannot indefinitely keep you in or out of your base I will lose all faith in Blizzard Removing the Sentry would force Blizzard to drastically buff Zealot/Stalker early game in order to offset the loss of the Sentry. At that point you're going to have nothing but 4 gates/7 gates. Why would that force blizzard to buff stalker/zealot? Because it would be impossible to hold a medivac timing, 3 rax, and all kinds of other stuff without totally sacrificing economy. Your Terran bias is, as always, amusing.
If you play greedy, dont scout, and don't make the appropriate units to deal with a push, (ie: spend all your chronoboost on workers) you deserve to get punished. You shouldnt be able to just spot the push coming up your ramp and FF it and be able to hold for entire minutes while you get out an army. Conversely, you shouldnt be able to camp outside an opponents base and keep them contained with no way to get out while you rape their natural or their main. Forcefields are broken, stupid, and unnecessary
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
