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On April 16 2012 05:23 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 01:53 teamhozac wrote:
Mass roach actually counters mech believe it or not
Nope. Not with siege tanks.
There is not enough gas to make the number of tanks required to take on roaches, and mechs mineral dump is hellions, which are terrible against roaches. Plus tanks require good positioning in order to be cost effective against roaches, which can not always be achieved due to roach burrow/overlord dropping roaches/nydus worm, early game tanks own roaches, late game, not so much
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On April 16 2012 05:23 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 01:53 teamhozac wrote:
Mass roach actually counters mech believe it or not
Nope. Not with siege tanks.
I agree, mass roach counters mech when tanks are unsieged. And you never want that to happen.
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On April 16 2012 06:19 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 05:23 monkybone wrote:On April 16 2012 01:53 teamhozac wrote:
Mass roach actually counters mech believe it or not
Nope. Not with siege tanks. There is not enough gas to make the number of tanks required to take on roaches, and mechs mineral dump is hellions, which are terrible against roaches. Plus tanks require good positioning in order to be cost effective against roaches, which can not always be achieved due to roach burrow/overlord dropping roaches/nydus worm, early game tanks own roaches, late game, not so much
I usually don't encourage blacklisting posters, but literally every post of yours in this thread has been something to the effect of generalizing the game in such a way that Terran is perceived as at a disadvantage or in such a way so that the other races are easy.
Can you try to actually be constructive rather than saying blanket stuff about Protoss as a race or how mass Roach counters an entire composition? I mean, come on. Be honest, at least.
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On April 16 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 06:19 teamhozac wrote:On April 16 2012 05:23 monkybone wrote:On April 16 2012 01:53 teamhozac wrote:
Mass roach actually counters mech believe it or not
Nope. Not with siege tanks. There is not enough gas to make the number of tanks required to take on roaches, and mechs mineral dump is hellions, which are terrible against roaches. Plus tanks require good positioning in order to be cost effective against roaches, which can not always be achieved due to roach burrow/overlord dropping roaches/nydus worm, early game tanks own roaches, late game, not so much I usually don't encourage blacklisting posters, but literally every post of yours in this thread has been something to the effect of generalizing the game in such a way that Terran is perceived as at a disadvantage or in such a way so that the other races are easy. Can you try to actually be constructive rather than saying blanket stuff about Protoss as a race or how mass Roach counters an entire composition? I mean, come on. Be honest, at least.
What the fuck are you talking about? I am being honest, roaches counter mech, there is no if ands or buts about it, it does. And nowhere did I say in those posts that anything was easy/imbalanced, youre just putting words in my mouth for some reason
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He's right. It's common knowledge that mass upgraded Roach is the counter to Mech.
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On April 16 2012 06:40 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:On April 16 2012 06:19 teamhozac wrote:On April 16 2012 05:23 monkybone wrote:On April 16 2012 01:53 teamhozac wrote:
Mass roach actually counters mech believe it or not
Nope. Not with siege tanks. There is not enough gas to make the number of tanks required to take on roaches, and mechs mineral dump is hellions, which are terrible against roaches. Plus tanks require good positioning in order to be cost effective against roaches, which can not always be achieved due to roach burrow/overlord dropping roaches/nydus worm, early game tanks own roaches, late game, not so much I usually don't encourage blacklisting posters, but literally every post of yours in this thread has been something to the effect of generalizing the game in such a way that Terran is perceived as at a disadvantage or in such a way so that the other races are easy. Can you try to actually be constructive rather than saying blanket stuff about Protoss as a race or how mass Roach counters an entire composition? I mean, come on. Be honest, at least. What the fuck are you talking about? I am being honest, roaches counter mech, there is no if ands or buts about it, it does. And nowhere did I say in those posts that anything was easy/imbalanced, youre just putting words in my mouth for some reason
"No kidding, protoss has been babied throughout the entirety of this game, receiveing buffs and dishing out nerfs for every little issue, rather than figure out a way to deal with it in game... they just expect it now"
(I accidentally quoted the wrong post; my apologies).
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On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change.
Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss.
Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings
Edit: Needed to add, Cloud Kingdom, Tal Darim, Shakuras, Metropolis, Ohana none of them got a wide open 3rd that could get over run by roaches easily, drop isnt a viable option, burrow movement either, but yeah, I guess it requires for you to watch 2 ramps, oh my god, poor you, that must require at least 340 apm. Thing is about balance whine, players get used to things, to certain playstyles, and to certain match up designs, once metagame changes that, all of a sudden it's the whine rain, broodlord didnt get buffed, infestors got nerfed, 6 months ago I dont remember people owning with it, and in 6 months protoss will realize how slow broods are, and how fragile their tech / bases are, and even worse people tend to forget that yeah, zerg units are cheap, not infestors / corruptors / broodlords, it his OUR deathball for a reason, it takes 18 mins of 4 bases to build one, not 2 bases colossus...
Just stop sitting on your ass thinking "oh my god my favorite strats are now out dated, Blizzard must fix it for me"
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On April 16 2012 06:45 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 06:40 teamhozac wrote:On April 16 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:On April 16 2012 06:19 teamhozac wrote:On April 16 2012 05:23 monkybone wrote:On April 16 2012 01:53 teamhozac wrote:
Mass roach actually counters mech believe it or not
Nope. Not with siege tanks. There is not enough gas to make the number of tanks required to take on roaches, and mechs mineral dump is hellions, which are terrible against roaches. Plus tanks require good positioning in order to be cost effective against roaches, which can not always be achieved due to roach burrow/overlord dropping roaches/nydus worm, early game tanks own roaches, late game, not so much I usually don't encourage blacklisting posters, but literally every post of yours in this thread has been something to the effect of generalizing the game in such a way that Terran is perceived as at a disadvantage or in such a way so that the other races are easy. Can you try to actually be constructive rather than saying blanket stuff about Protoss as a race or how mass Roach counters an entire composition? I mean, come on. Be honest, at least. What the fuck are you talking about? I am being honest, roaches counter mech, there is no if ands or buts about it, it does. And nowhere did I say in those posts that anything was easy/imbalanced, youre just putting words in my mouth for some reason "No kidding, protoss has been babied throughout the entirety of this game, receiveing buffs and dishing out nerfs for every little issue, rather than figure out a way to deal with it in game... they just expect it now" (I accidentally quoted the wrong post; my apologies).
Maybe what I said was a bit harsh, but can you really disagree completely with my gist? Several examples of knee jerk reactions by blizzard show me that their balance team really seems to love protoss. The thor energy bar nerf EXCLUSIVELY directed at giving protoss another way to counter thors, as if you needed another one... The immortal buffed, directed at killing the 1/1/1 strategy, a brand new upgrade ADDED to the game to give you guys another solution to mutas, I mean, the list goes on... its not like Im just making this shit up
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On April 16 2012 07:03 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change. Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss. Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings
Let's please not turn this thread into hand-waving nonsense about GSL stats from one month (this applies to both of you).
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On April 16 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 07:03 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change. Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss. Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings Let's please not turn this thread into hand-waving nonsense about GSL stats from one month (this applies to both of you).
Fact is GSL is the highest level there is, if the stephano push was "imbalanced" as stated many times (with all the dumb balance suggestions like simply nerfing roaches) we would see it. I dont see how it's crazy to state that, and yes DRG vs Genius wasnt an example of the state of the match up, it couldnt way too many mind games going on between two training partners, so thats bullshit too.
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On April 16 2012 07:19 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On April 16 2012 07:03 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change. Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss. Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings Let's please not turn this thread into hand-waving nonsense about GSL stats from one month (this applies to both of you). Fact is GSL is the highest level there is, if the stephano push was "imbalanced" as stated many times (with all the dumb balance suggestions like simply nerfing roaches) we would see it. I dont see how it's crazy to state that, and yes DRG vs Genius wasnt an example of the state of the match up, it couldnt way too many mind games going on between two training partners, so thats bullshit too.
There is also the fact that you base your whole argument on small number of matches. If we were balancing this game on outcome of five mathces, the game would probably be imbalanced in every possible way, no matter if the game was played by top players in GSL.
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On April 16 2012 07:31 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 07:19 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On April 16 2012 07:03 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change. Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss. Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings Let's please not turn this thread into hand-waving nonsense about GSL stats from one month (this applies to both of you). Fact is GSL is the highest level there is, if the stephano push was "imbalanced" as stated many times (with all the dumb balance suggestions like simply nerfing roaches) we would see it. I dont see how it's crazy to state that, and yes DRG vs Genius wasnt an example of the state of the match up, it couldnt way too many mind games going on between two training partners, so thats bullshit too. There is also the fact that you base your whole argument on small number of matches. If we were balancing this game on outcome of five mathces, the game would probably be imbalanced in every possible way, no matter if the game was played by top players in GSL.
They have balanced the game around a few games before, not saying it is the right thing to do (it definitely isnt) but they do it: blue flame hellion nerf, thor nerf, snipe nerf
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On April 16 2012 07:31 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 07:19 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On April 16 2012 07:03 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change. Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss. Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings Let's please not turn this thread into hand-waving nonsense about GSL stats from one month (this applies to both of you). Fact is GSL is the highest level there is, if the stephano push was "imbalanced" as stated many times (with all the dumb balance suggestions like simply nerfing roaches) we would see it. I dont see how it's crazy to state that, and yes DRG vs Genius wasnt an example of the state of the match up, it couldnt way too many mind games going on between two training partners, so thats bullshit too. There is also the fact that you base your whole argument on small number of matches. If we were balancing this game on outcome of five mathces, the game would probably be imbalanced in every possible way, no matter if the game was played by top players in GSL.
It's the contrary, I base my argument on a wild variety of games over the months and the evolution of the match up at the highest level of play there, with people that live, train, talk Starcraft in the most effective way there is, and still, they didnt figure out a IWINBUTTON. Thing is we're not that smart. Match up is evolving, people see patches as BIG changes, but actually a guy like Stephano (even if not creating it but just making it into the new metagame) was like a huge fucking patch for zerg know what I mean? And I'm surprised people didnt copy Kiwikaki styles more because he was ahead of his time too months ago. Also, tournament maps rotate quite a lot, that doesnt really help the match up to be stable-ish like ZvT or TvP are.
Personally, I might give a very very little edge in balance to Protoss, but we dont see it yet, because your race is unexplored to a certain extent. Thing that annoys me the most is the way the match up works, not balance
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On April 16 2012 07:36 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 07:31 Mehukannu wrote:On April 16 2012 07:19 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On April 16 2012 07:03 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change. Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss. Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings Let's please not turn this thread into hand-waving nonsense about GSL stats from one month (this applies to both of you). Fact is GSL is the highest level there is, if the stephano push was "imbalanced" as stated many times (with all the dumb balance suggestions like simply nerfing roaches) we would see it. I dont see how it's crazy to state that, and yes DRG vs Genius wasnt an example of the state of the match up, it couldnt way too many mind games going on between two training partners, so thats bullshit too. There is also the fact that you base your whole argument on small number of matches. If we were balancing this game on outcome of five mathces, the game would probably be imbalanced in every possible way, no matter if the game was played by top players in GSL. It's the contrary, I base my argument on a wild variety of games over the months and the evolution of the match up at the highest level of play there, with people that live, train, talk Starcraft in the most effective way there is, and still, they didnt figure out a IWINBUTTON. Thing is we're not that smart. Match up is evolving, people see patches as BIG changes, but actually a guy like Stephano (even if not creating it but just making it into the new metagame) was like a huge fucking patch for zerg know what I mean? And I'm surprised people didnt copy Kiwikaki styles more because he was ahead of his time too months ago. Also, tournament maps rotate quite a lot, that doesnt really help the match up to be stable-ish like ZvT or TvP are. Personally, I might give a very very little edge in balance to Protoss, but we dont see it yet, because your race is unexplored to a certain extent. Thing that annoys me the most is the way the match up works, not balance
Whatever happened to Kiwikaki anyways? Dude fell off the face of the earth it seems
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On April 16 2012 07:43 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 07:36 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 07:31 Mehukannu wrote:On April 16 2012 07:19 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On April 16 2012 07:03 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change. Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss. Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings Let's please not turn this thread into hand-waving nonsense about GSL stats from one month (this applies to both of you). Fact is GSL is the highest level there is, if the stephano push was "imbalanced" as stated many times (with all the dumb balance suggestions like simply nerfing roaches) we would see it. I dont see how it's crazy to state that, and yes DRG vs Genius wasnt an example of the state of the match up, it couldnt way too many mind games going on between two training partners, so thats bullshit too. There is also the fact that you base your whole argument on small number of matches. If we were balancing this game on outcome of five mathces, the game would probably be imbalanced in every possible way, no matter if the game was played by top players in GSL. It's the contrary, I base my argument on a wild variety of games over the months and the evolution of the match up at the highest level of play there, with people that live, train, talk Starcraft in the most effective way there is, and still, they didnt figure out a IWINBUTTON. Thing is we're not that smart. Match up is evolving, people see patches as BIG changes, but actually a guy like Stephano (even if not creating it but just making it into the new metagame) was like a huge fucking patch for zerg know what I mean? And I'm surprised people didnt copy Kiwikaki styles more because he was ahead of his time too months ago. Also, tournament maps rotate quite a lot, that doesnt really help the match up to be stable-ish like ZvT or TvP are. Personally, I might give a very very little edge in balance to Protoss, but we dont see it yet, because your race is unexplored to a certain extent. Thing that annoys me the most is the way the match up works, not balance Whatever happened to Kiwikaki anyways? Dude fell off the face of the earth it seems
No idea, I guess the execution didnt follow the ideas, because this guy was a fcking smart protoss
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On April 16 2012 07:36 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 07:31 Mehukannu wrote:On April 16 2012 07:19 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On April 16 2012 07:03 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change. Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss. Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings Let's please not turn this thread into hand-waving nonsense about GSL stats from one month (this applies to both of you). Fact is GSL is the highest level there is, if the stephano push was "imbalanced" as stated many times (with all the dumb balance suggestions like simply nerfing roaches) we would see it. I dont see how it's crazy to state that, and yes DRG vs Genius wasnt an example of the state of the match up, it couldnt way too many mind games going on between two training partners, so thats bullshit too. There is also the fact that you base your whole argument on small number of matches. If we were balancing this game on outcome of five mathces, the game would probably be imbalanced in every possible way, no matter if the game was played by top players in GSL. It's the contrary, I base my argument on a wild variety of games over the months and the evolution of the match up at the highest level of play there, with people that live, train, talk Starcraft in the most effective way there is, and still, they didnt figure out a IWINBUTTON. Thing is we're not that smart. Match up is evolving, people see patches as BIG changes, but actually a guy like Stephano (even if not creating it but just making it into the new metagame) was like a huge fucking patch for zerg know what I mean? And I'm surprised people didnt copy Kiwikaki styles more because he was ahead of his time too months ago. Also, tournament maps rotate quite a lot, that doesnt really help the match up to be stable-ish like ZvT or TvP are. Personally, I might give a very very little edge in balance to Protoss, but we dont see it yet, because your race is unexplored to a certain extent. Thing that annoys me the most is the way the match up works, not balance
You still base your argument upon words rather than data. There is no way to take it seriously or even care about what you are saying until provide an adequate amount of data to make the argument able to hold anything.
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On April 16 2012 07:50 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 07:36 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 07:31 Mehukannu wrote:On April 16 2012 07:19 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On April 16 2012 07:03 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change. Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss. Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings Let's please not turn this thread into hand-waving nonsense about GSL stats from one month (this applies to both of you). Fact is GSL is the highest level there is, if the stephano push was "imbalanced" as stated many times (with all the dumb balance suggestions like simply nerfing roaches) we would see it. I dont see how it's crazy to state that, and yes DRG vs Genius wasnt an example of the state of the match up, it couldnt way too many mind games going on between two training partners, so thats bullshit too. There is also the fact that you base your whole argument on small number of matches. If we were balancing this game on outcome of five mathces, the game would probably be imbalanced in every possible way, no matter if the game was played by top players in GSL. It's the contrary, I base my argument on a wild variety of games over the months and the evolution of the match up at the highest level of play there, with people that live, train, talk Starcraft in the most effective way there is, and still, they didnt figure out a IWINBUTTON. Thing is we're not that smart. Match up is evolving, people see patches as BIG changes, but actually a guy like Stephano (even if not creating it but just making it into the new metagame) was like a huge fucking patch for zerg know what I mean? And I'm surprised people didnt copy Kiwikaki styles more because he was ahead of his time too months ago. Also, tournament maps rotate quite a lot, that doesnt really help the match up to be stable-ish like ZvT or TvP are. Personally, I might give a very very little edge in balance to Protoss, but we dont see it yet, because your race is unexplored to a certain extent. Thing that annoys me the most is the way the match up works, not balance You still base your argument upon words rather than data. There is no way to take it seriously or even care about what you are saying until provide an adequate amount of data to make the argument able to hold anything.
Nice way out of it, the fuck you're doing here? Thanks captain hindsight, of course there is no data why would we discuss it if they were? It doesnt exists, Starcraft is way too complex to be resumed to data, or match win rates, now you're making me state the obvious
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On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change.
ok, i just checked liquidpedia and lets see last season
R16 5Protss 3 Zerg
R8 4 Protoss 1 Zerg
Now this season
R16 7 Protoss 2 Zerg.
I would say for a while Zerg has been doing worse then Protoss so please don't use DRG's run as an excuse.
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On April 16 2012 08:00 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 07:50 Mehukannu wrote:On April 16 2012 07:36 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 07:31 Mehukannu wrote:On April 16 2012 07:19 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 07:04 Shiori wrote:On April 16 2012 07:03 mahO wrote:On April 16 2012 00:16 ooozer wrote:On April 15 2012 03:34 Assirra wrote:On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote:
Problem:
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake.
Solution:
Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game.
Side Effects:
Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. Nerfing zerg at this point doesn't seem like a good idea tbh. Might want to check the GSL list. You realise zerg won last GSL against toss? Any balance buffs inbetween? When there are only 2 Zergs left, the race is UP, when only 1 toss is left (killer), it's a matter of meta game change. Damn, such bias, do you realize on how many different levels Genius failed during the finals? Carrier strat, complete and really baaaaaad indecision on crossfire (lol, Crossfire ZvP yeah, zerg so favored) etc etc. Right now, Leenock & July only zergs left in Code S and they both shown some high mother fucking level to get there. If the 12 mins roach push was so easy (according to all the whine in here) why dont we see Nestea, DRG do it? No, they are great strategists, they know the builds that are around, and dont do it on purpose, why? Because good protoss with good control and timings can hold it cost efficently, and once you went that much on roach, even if you take 4th base, you still invested all your money on roaches, their upgrades, you cant afford 6 gas and infestor tech, you cant upgrade your lings, you cant think of doing corruptors for some time = all those things that are required late game vs a protoss. Cut the whine just because you cant a-move in ladder, work on your control and timings Let's please not turn this thread into hand-waving nonsense about GSL stats from one month (this applies to both of you). Fact is GSL is the highest level there is, if the stephano push was "imbalanced" as stated many times (with all the dumb balance suggestions like simply nerfing roaches) we would see it. I dont see how it's crazy to state that, and yes DRG vs Genius wasnt an example of the state of the match up, it couldnt way too many mind games going on between two training partners, so thats bullshit too. There is also the fact that you base your whole argument on small number of matches. If we were balancing this game on outcome of five mathces, the game would probably be imbalanced in every possible way, no matter if the game was played by top players in GSL. It's the contrary, I base my argument on a wild variety of games over the months and the evolution of the match up at the highest level of play there, with people that live, train, talk Starcraft in the most effective way there is, and still, they didnt figure out a IWINBUTTON. Thing is we're not that smart. Match up is evolving, people see patches as BIG changes, but actually a guy like Stephano (even if not creating it but just making it into the new metagame) was like a huge fucking patch for zerg know what I mean? And I'm surprised people didnt copy Kiwikaki styles more because he was ahead of his time too months ago. Also, tournament maps rotate quite a lot, that doesnt really help the match up to be stable-ish like ZvT or TvP are. Personally, I might give a very very little edge in balance to Protoss, but we dont see it yet, because your race is unexplored to a certain extent. Thing that annoys me the most is the way the match up works, not balance You still base your argument upon words rather than data. There is no way to take it seriously or even care about what you are saying until provide an adequate amount of data to make the argument able to hold anything. Nice way out of it, the fuck you're doing here? Thanks captain hindsight, of course there is no data why would we discuss it if they were? It doesnt exists, Starcraft is way too complex to be resumed to data, or match win rates, now you're making me state the obvious
That is what exactly is wrong with these discussions and of the main reasons the sometimes lead to flame wars as they are based on opinions and bias. Which is one of the reasons mods don't allow these kind of discussions to go on other threads.
The thing is, these discussions are for nothing if there are no data which to base it on. It will be really hard to say if something is really true or not since not every people showing their opinion on some matter and most of the time is just handful of people talking anyway.
So, where to get data? From TLDP, perhaps some other site. I don't know other sites and I don't really care since it is you who did the argument and thus your responsibility to find and gather those data to go with your argument. While I agree that starcraft is complex, but it still isn't impossible to get data to base your argument upon.
If anything, the complexity of the game is more of a reason to get data rather than ignore it. Since data can show a direction on how something is going or how race x is doing in against a race during 10-15 min versus race y in a match-up. Just discussing about it will not show anything about it other than bias in players.
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EPT
