EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 204
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MetalSlug
Germany443 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 11 2012 00:54 MetalSlug wrote: Banelings should dmg all units in range (even your units) equally, creating chainreactions with a moved banes. There, i said it ! marines should shoot each other in the back when standing behind each other and zealots should break their arms when attacking armored units. | ||
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jimbob615
Uruguay455 Posts
On April 10 2012 07:35 Jermstuddog wrote: @da_head I don't even know how to respond to that... You ramble on about 2 base timings and something about lings being efficient/not efficient, then say I'm want my midgame army to be as efficient as the Protoss army, then tell me to stay on topic... Ok... Just to clarify... I haven't said shit about 2 base timings or Mutas losing to Stalkers or anything remotely close to that. I am talking about LATE GAME ZvP. This generally means Protoss is on 3 or more bases and Zerg is on 5 or more. Both armies are maxed, and you are most likely 3/3 on your ground army, there is a mothership and Broodlords floating around, and you are filling out the odds and ends of your tech, replacing lower cost units with higher cost units as engagements allow. It is my understanding that Blizzard saw fit to add a +2 range upgrade to the fleet beacon to allow for Phoenixes to aptly counter Mutalisks. They justified this change with the argument that massing Mutas should not be viable into the late game, and this should force Zerg to pursue other tech as the game progresses on. I am saying that Blizzard forgot half the matchup. The Stalker fills the same exact harass/map control role for Protoss that the Muta does for Zerg while ALSO acting as the meat of the deathball. If Protoss deserves a +2 range upgrade to stop muta harass, Zerg needs an upgrade somewhere to stop the Stalker harass. The obvious answer is to buff the roach when you consider its relationship with the Stalker. Much the same as how the Phoenix shits on the muta and dies to pretty much everything else, roaches SHOULD slaughter Stalkers and die to everything else. Unfortunately that is not the case. Roaches currently lose to Blink Stalkers in straight-up fights and lose to everything else as well. This is what has lead to the massive spine walls we are currently seeing in late game ZvP. Spines are not made because they are imba, they are made because they are the only option Zerg has that can support Brood Lords against an endgame Protoss army without exploding in the first 2 seconds of the fight. This highly immobile composition of Broodlords and spine crawlers acting as the core, augmented with infestors, generally waiting in the back, leaves Zerg open to counter attacks to which they have no answer (why we're seeing Zergs sacrifice their main/natural/third and turtling up in the corner by their freshest bases with the most plentiful resources). I believe 6 range roaches in the late game of ZvP would solve this immobility problem by allowing late game roaches to fight Stalkers and not lose outright. I don't think this would adversely affect ZvT as Ultras are generally superior to roaches in that MU. Every post I have made thus far supports this argument, and all the responses have been dealt with in a logical manner, only pulling out insults when people bring up inane shit or use an obvious argument that I have already dealt with (showing that they can't bother to read the conversation before typing). Either way, my point has been made. I see no realistic counter arguments and don't feel like typing in circles forever. Good day sirs. i agree partially, the +2 roach upgrade could be good if it was hive tech | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On April 10 2012 07:41 Jermstuddog wrote: Because 30 supply is a lot more than 8, 14, or 20 depending on how many carriers you make (more than 2 is quite bad). Again, ZvP is all about keeping that 200 supply as efficient as possible, throwing 30 supply worth of corruptors at a Protoss army on the off chance that you MIGHT kill his mothership, carriers, and void rays is incredibly risky and not very rewarding. Even Tyler agrees with me on this one, watch SotG a few episodes back. corruptors kill motherships too, so really, the 2 carriers, mothership and 3-4 voidrays you mention are actually 29-32 supply. And despite almost exactly equal worth in ressources that protoss part of the army is worth way more because it takes many minutes to rebuild it, unlike corruptors who pop 40 seconds out of any larva available. So no, corruptors arent useless. And if you ever have too much you can just morph them into broodlords. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On April 09 2012 04:24 teamhozac wrote: I really think you are just trolling or something with that rant. So what youre basically saying is you just want to keep making one unit all game, even if the opponent makes the counter to that unit and pwns you, its somehow unfair? You should just be able to keep making that unit? I really dont get it... How about this: "I dont WANT to make vikings to counter your broodlords, I want to keep making medivacs, why should I have to stop making medivacs to make a unit to counter your unit?" stupid -_- no that is not what im saying. lets assume that terran does a MKP build and makes only marines for a long period of time. with superb marine splitting and micro, banelings will be less effective and he can continue to make marines without really making anything else for good while. now what if zerg had a unit that only costed minerals to completely force him off of marines? all of a sudden his build is rendered USELESS because of a single unit. do you see what im saying? if you want to go a ling heavy build u cant because mass upgraded hellions can easily force u away from lings. having hellions cost gas would justify this. as for your example, making vikings to counter broodlords=/= being forced to not make a unit entirely. what you are not understand is how significant/powerful it is to force a player to NOT make a certain unit. zerg already have hydras being completly useless in ZvT, why should hellions/mech also make zerglings useless? broodlords do not force u to stop making any of ur terran units, all broodlords do is force u to make more vikings then u really need, but it does not render ANY of ur units useless. do you understand now? you are able to still make medivacs as well as vikings. sure ull have less medivacs because of the vikings, but it will not make the medivacs u ALREADY HAVE useless. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
People didnt bitch in BW that reavers and HTs made marines useless, while zealot dragoon was always good for protoss. is that zergling example supposed to be proof for imbalance or sth? Its not like you build tons of zerglings and then SUDDENLY terran has 20 blue flame hellions, if you build a shit unit comp for what ur enemy has ur a bad player, simple as that | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On April 11 2012 08:01 7mk wrote: against certain units comp. you should stop building unit X, other comps dont force the enemy to go for certain units... so fucking what? People didnt bitch in BW that reavers and HTs made marines useless, while zealot dragoon was always good for protoss. is that zergling example supposed to be proof for imbalance or sth? Its not like you build tons of zerglings and then SUDDENLY terran has 20 blue flame hellions, if you build a shit unit comp for what ur enemy has ur a bad player, simple as that pls dont even try to compare this game to BW. BW didnt have this x unit counters x unit machanic in it. splitting marnies against reavers didnt make them useless, just the opposite actually. same thing with HT. micro was everything in BW. there wasnt any "x unit beats x unit". | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On April 11 2012 11:52 Ballistixz wrote: pls dont even try to compare this game to BW. BW didnt have this x unit counters x unit machanic in it. splitting marnies against reavers didnt make them useless, just the opposite actually. same thing with HT. micro was everything in BW. there wasnt any "x unit beats x unit". It was there, just not to the degree it is in sc2. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On April 11 2012 11:52 Ballistixz wrote: pls dont even try to compare this game to BW. BW didnt have this x unit counters x unit machanic in it. splitting marnies against reavers didnt make them useless, just the opposite actually. same thing with HT. micro was everything in BW. there wasnt any "x unit beats x unit". And you think microing units in SC2 makes them useless? if you split marines against colossi it makes them much better if you split marines vs reavers it makes them much better, yet reavers and HTs actually ARE the reason that you simply do not make marines in late game PvT in BW | ||
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jookaa
United States4 Posts
On April 10 2012 07:35 Jermstuddog wrote: @da_head I don't even know how to respond to that... You ramble on about 2 base timings and something about lings being efficient/not efficient, then say I'm want my midgame army to be as efficient as the Protoss army, then tell me to stay on topic... Ok... Just to clarify... I haven't said shit about 2 base timings or Mutas losing to Stalkers or anything remotely close to that. I am talking about LATE GAME ZvP. This generally means Protoss is on 3 or more bases and Zerg is on 5 or more. Both armies are maxed, and you are most likely 3/3 on your ground army, there is a mothership and Broodlords floating around, and you are filling out the odds and ends of your tech, replacing lower cost units with higher cost units as engagements allow. It is my understanding that Blizzard saw fit to add a +2 range upgrade to the fleet beacon to allow for Phoenixes to aptly counter Mutalisks. They justified this change with the argument that massing Mutas should not be viable into the late game, and this should force Zerg to pursue other tech as the game progresses on. I am saying that Blizzard forgot half the matchup. The Stalker fills the same exact harass/map control role for Protoss that the Muta does for Zerg while ALSO acting as the meat of the deathball. If Protoss deserves a +2 range upgrade to stop muta harass, Zerg needs an upgrade somewhere to stop the Stalker harass. The obvious answer is to buff the roach when you consider its relationship with the Stalker. Much the same as how the Phoenix shits on the muta and dies to pretty much everything else, roaches SHOULD slaughter Stalkers and die to everything else. Unfortunately that is not the case. Roaches currently lose to Blink Stalkers in straight-up fights and lose to everything else as well. This is what has lead to the massive spine walls we are currently seeing in late game ZvP. Spines are not made because they are imba, they are made because they are the only option Zerg has that can support Brood Lords against an endgame Protoss army without exploding in the first 2 seconds of the fight. This highly immobile composition of Broodlords and spine crawlers acting as the core, augmented with infestors, generally waiting in the back, leaves Zerg open to counter attacks to which they have no answer (why we're seeing Zergs sacrifice their main/natural/third and turtling up in the corner by their freshest bases with the most plentiful resources). I believe 6 range roaches in the late game of ZvP would solve this immobility problem by allowing late game roaches to fight Stalkers and not lose outright. I don't think this would adversely affect ZvT as Ultras are generally superior to roaches in that MU. Every post I have made thus far supports this argument, and all the responses have been dealt with in a logical manner, only pulling out insults when people bring up inane shit or use an obvious argument that I have already dealt with (showing that they can't bother to read the conversation before typing). Either way, my point has been made. I see no realistic counter arguments and don't feel like typing in circles forever. Good day sirs. First in late game ZvP, Z expands everywhere to mitigate with stalker harass. (or marine/marauder harass) The opposing player must be punished for sending pieces of his army across the map in small groups, and if it gets to a point where spreading bases is rendered irrelevant then control of the game has been lost and will shortly end. Realistically as a Z sitting back and macroing till whenever you feel like engaging a maxed out P or T army is just silly. (thats why idra doesnt rape anymore) The whole point is that Z's get their tech and max army before other races so exploiting timings is key. terrans and protoss use timings all the time because they want to win before it becomes un-winnable, why should Z refuse timings and just macro? (the question is only for you, all top pros all three races use timings) The main reason why +2 roach upgrade will never be is because your reasoning is all wrong. Late game ZvP in which a protoss has never been harassed or delayed in taking expansions is an un-winnable scenario. Just because you want cost efficiency due to the fact that you play Z and not P or T is not a good enough reason. This is just the way the game has played out Z is not cost efficient, the reason for the phoenix +2 range was because mutalisks ruined the ZvP match up at the time. I personally did not like the change, but it is in place. I can help vent your frustration about Z being a incredibly difficult race compared to protoss and terran sure. When Z makes a mistake in "unit composition" it is automatically GG b/c by the time you remake the other race has his 200 army at your natural. When you type GG you feel cheated because they 1-a ed into your main for the win while in order for you to win you have to do 10x that. | ||
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Xitac
Germany25 Posts
So its at a very high level worse then terran and zerg P dont need a buff it should be harder to play to reach the full potential | ||
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake. Solution: Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game. Side Effects: Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On April 10 2012 07:35 Jermstuddog wrote: I am saying that Blizzard forgot half the matchup. The Stalker fills the same exact harass/map control role for Protoss that the Muta does for Zerg while ALSO acting as the meat of the deathball. If Protoss deserves a +2 range upgrade to stop muta harass, Zerg needs an upgrade somewhere to stop the Stalker harass. The obvious answer is to buff the roach when you consider its relationship with the Stalker. Much the same as how the Phoenix shits on the muta and dies to pretty much everything else, roaches SHOULD slaughter Stalkers and die to everything else. Unfortunately that is not the case. Roaches currently lose to Blink Stalkers in straight-up fights and lose to everything else as well. I believe 6 range roaches in the late game of ZvP would solve this immobility problem by allowing late game roaches to fight Stalkers and not lose outright. I don't think this would adversely affect ZvT as Ultras are generally superior to roaches in that MU. The roach loses the straight up fight with blink stalkers because of blink and shield regen and not because of range. The range only comes into play with forcefields which are not really an issue during the situations you describe. Also I don't understand how blink stalker harassment cannot be defended by zerg... speedlings do really really well vs stalkers, are cheap and nearly as mobile. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 14 2012 21:16 Toastie wrote: Problem: The possibility of Mass roach (aka Stephano Style) in ZvP makes it impossible for Protoss to take and hold a third, forcing Protoss into 2 base allins or cheesy and unsafe expansions hoping for the Zerg to make a mistake. Solution: Reduce Roach HP by ±20 to 125 HP and give the Roach Warren an upgrade upon Hive to increase Roach HP with 30 to give it a total of 155, making the roach slightly more effective in the late- game. Side Effects: Roaches might be come harder to use in ZvT vs Hellions/Marine; ZvZ might become more diverse than Roach Only midgames; Roaches are weaker vs Protoss to max out on without Hive. I think this is a decent idea. Again, it's not that it's impossible to hold Roach aggression, but that it's too difficult for what it is, much like the 1-1-1 used to be before the Immortal buff. 9/10 times, 3base Roach denies the third. That's not good. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 15 2012 01:32 Shiori wrote: I think this is a decent idea. Again, it's not that it's impossible to hold Roach aggression, but that it's too difficult for what it is, much like the 1-1-1 used to be before the Immortal buff. 9/10 times, 3base Roach denies the third. That's not good. You cant be serious right? This is the same mindset blizzard used when they nerfed the thor, blue flame hellions, ghosts... Let the game develop! Let people come up with a strategy to beat roaches dont just nerf them, the constant knee jerk reactions from blizzard against new strategies are killing the game, we dont need any more of that shit | ||
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Sabu113
United States11035 Posts
On April 15 2012 01:32 Shiori wrote: I think this is a decent idea. Again, it's not that it's impossible to hold Roach aggression, but that it's too difficult for what it is, much like the 1-1-1 used to be before the Immortal buff. 9/10 times, 3base Roach denies the third. That's not good. Trees forest? It seems like a lot of these pvz problems occurred when it got safe to take a super super fast third. The big difference between pvz and tvz seems to be the economic and general pressure the terran can put on early in the game.... Revert the spore crawler buff! Air Early game! This also takes care of Mutas. | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3571 Posts
On April 15 2012 01:32 Shiori wrote: I think this is a decent idea. Again, it's not that it's impossible to hold Roach aggression, but that it's too difficult for what it is, much like the 1-1-1 used to be before the Immortal buff. 9/10 times, 3base Roach denies the third. That's not good. Denies the third, but the toss can still just max off 2 base with immortals and win. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:25 teamhozac wrote: You cant be serious right? This is the same mindset blizzard used when they nerfed the thor, blue flame hellions, ghosts... Let the game develop! Let people come up with a strategy to beat roaches dont just nerf them, the constant knee jerk reactions from blizzard against new strategies are killing the game, we dont need any more of that shit This build has been around for a fair amount of time. Not sure what you're been watching. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
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