EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 207
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 16 2012 08:03 monkybone wrote: Seriously, it doesn't take a lot of siege tanks to shut roach play down. Roaches can't touch a defensive meching terran with focus on siege tanks, there's no chance. Zergs will rather rush to hive tech to counter heavy siege tank mech. EDIT: lol yeah I agree with the above, how the heck can we provide data? To make a conclusion from data in sc2 seems to me like a heavy research project only possible with what blizzard has avaliable of replays and statistics. I go mech every game bro, roaches are the answer to mech. Of course you never want to engage into a gigantic siege line in a narrow corridor or some shenanigans, but using overlord drops and dumping your roaches all over a siege line guarentees you will wipe them up, or using a nydus, flanking the tanks, etc. You never want to put yourself in a position where you HAVE to engage a heavy siege line everyone knows that | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On April 16 2012 08:22 teamhozac wrote: I go mech every game bro, roaches are the answer to mech. Of course you never want to engage into a gigantic siege line in a narrow corridor or some shenanigans, but using overlord drops and dumping your roaches all over a siege line guarentees you will wipe them up, or using a nydus, flanking the tanks, etc. You never want to put yourself in a position where you HAVE to engage a heavy siege line everyone knows that This is situational. If you run mass Thor in the Unit Tester, you'll notice that it takes more than four Roach remaxes to win over that. There is a timing window where mass Roach can be devastating, but if you replace Tanks with Thors you will me immune to that. Of course, other problems arise, amongst which a good Infestor control. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On April 16 2012 08:20 monkybone wrote: My god, do you realize that the statistical significance of such low numbers is non-existent? It tells nothing of imbalance, on the contrary, the fact that all races are represented are solid signs of extreme balance. Minor imbalances requires massive amounts of statistical data to prove, and even then you must be careful how to draw conclusions. Yea lets get all the data from the bronzies, shure they know more about balance since there are more eh. This is data of almost 5months from the top of the world, i think it has some relevance. Also, i am not saying they should change anything, i just countered the "need to nerf zerg" post with actual data from the top, not your average ladder guy saying "x is to hard". | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 16 2012 07:35 teamhozac wrote: They have balanced the game around a few games before, not saying it is the right thing to do (it definitely isnt) but they do it: blue flame hellion nerf, thor nerf, snipe nerf The Snipe nerf and Hellion nerfs were both awful, so I'm inclined to agree with you. I think the Thor nerf was poorly handled, although flatly removing the energy was obviously too strong. Instead, though, they made the unit far too situational against Protoss to the point of being nearly useless. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 16 2012 08:43 Kukaracha wrote: This is situational. If you run mass Thor in the Unit Tester, you'll notice that it takes more than four Roach remaxes to win over that. There is a timing window where mass Roach can be devastating, but if you replace Tanks with Thors you will me immune to that. Of course, other problems arise, amongst which a good Infestor control. Or a flock of mutas comes to rain on your one/two thor parade... and subsequently the rest of your army... The +1 attack upgrade is pretty much 100% necessary for tvz mech as it makes thrors two shot roaches, tanks one shot upgrades lings, so timing is quite important for the meching terran as well. | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 16 2012 09:40 Kukaracha wrote: +2 Thors two shot Mutas. And anyway, one small misclick from the Zerg player and all the Mutas are gone, that is, if you went mass Thors in the lategame. Yeah but my point was if you go light on thors and 20 mutas pop out its basically game over, its not like youre gonna be going mutas and then all of a sudden 6 thors pop out, just doesnt work that way due to the production time/facilities required for thors | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On April 16 2012 10:36 teamhozac wrote: Yeah but my point was if you go light on thors and 20 mutas pop out its basically game over, its not like youre gonna be going mutas and then all of a sudden 6 thors pop out, just doesnt work that way due to the production time/facilities required for thors Do you're saying if you don't scout and only make 600/400 worth of a particular unit and the other guy makes 2000/2000 of another unit and you don't make any other kind of anti air you'll lose? Life must be hard as a terran. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 16 2012 10:42 Ziggitz wrote: Do you're saying if you don't scout and only make 600/400 worth of a particular unit and the other guy makes 2000/2000 of another unit and you don't make any other kind of anti air you'll lose? Life must be hard as a terran. Youre missing the point entirely, do you have any idea how hard it is to hide production as terran? Especially the kind to churn out large amounts of thors or bcs or something? Mutas require a spire, thats it.. a tiny little building where you can place anywhere there is creep, and then pop out countless amounts of mutas since you already have the production (hatcheries) to do so. Terran is WAY less flexible, and is much harder to hide any sort of tech switch due to needing serious investments in time/resources for production. Not whining imbalance, but if youre gonna come at me like that I am gonna stand my ground. | ||
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eery1
52 Posts
On April 16 2012 10:47 teamhozac wrote: Youre missing the point entirely, do you have any idea how hard it is to hide production as terran? Especially the kind to churn out large amounts of thors or bcs or something? Mutas require a spire, thats it.. a tiny little building where you can place anywhere there is creep, and then pop out countless amounts of mutas since you already have the production (hatcheries) to do so. Terran is WAY less flexible, and is much harder to hide any sort of tech switch due to needing serious investments in time/resources for production. Not whining imbalance, but if youre gonna come at me like that I am gonna stand my ground. Meh, worked in BW | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On April 16 2012 10:47 teamhozac wrote: Youre missing the point entirely, do you have any idea how hard it is to hide production as terran? Especially the kind to churn out large amounts of thors or bcs or something? Mutas require a spire, thats it.. a tiny little building where you can place anywhere there is creep, and then pop out countless amounts of mutas since you already have the production (hatcheries) to do so. Terran is WAY less flexible, and is much harder to hide any sort of tech switch due to needing serious investments in time/resources for production. Not whining imbalance, but if youre gonna come at me like that I am gonna stand my ground. No I'm not missing the point. For the Zerg to get that many mutas out it means that you didn't pressure him long enough for him to bank 4000 resources. It means you weren't dropping or scanning in the main or natural or dropping the third to spot it and it means you completely lost track of what the Zerg had economy wise, didn't know how much gas he had and wasn't checking how many evos he had, banes he had or roaches he had to distinguish between infestor and muta play. It also means you moved out on the map without any marines to support your two thors to die. Hell, for the first 10 minutes of the game you can fly medivacs and vikings over the zerg's base and there isn't shit he can do about it. I'm sorry, but the notion that it's difficult to scout muta play as Terran is fucking hilarious to me. If you think that: 1.) Spotting the spire is difficult 2.) That's the only indicator to look for. 3.) That the Zerg can bank 4k resources safely and pop all those mutas at once. Then I guess there's nothing I can say to convince you. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:20 Ziggitz wrote: No I'm not missing the point. For the Zerg to get that many mutas out it means that you didn't pressure him long enough for him to bank 4000 resources. It means you weren't dropping or scanning in the main or natural or dropping the third to spot it and it means you completely lost track of what the Zerg had economy wise, didn't know how much gas he had and wasn't checking how many evos he had, banes he had or roaches he had to distinguish between infestor and muta play. It also means you moved out on the map without any marines to support your two thors to die. Hell, for the first 10 minutes of the game you can fly medivacs and vikings over the zerg's base and there isn't shit he can do about it. I'm sorry, but the notion that it's difficult to scout muta play as Terran is fucking hilarious to me. If you think that: 1.) Spotting the spire is difficult 2.) That's the only indicator to look for. 3.) That the Zerg can bank 4k resources safely and pop all those mutas at once. Then I guess there's nothing I can say to convince you. Sorry were not all Marine King Prime and have the multi tasking to pressure, check opponents gas, keep up with macro, have the appropriate structures to make the appropriate units for what we THINK may be coming next based loosely on some timing/gas count/whatever. Not to mention, you could throw down a roach warren as well and just flip flop from mutas to roaches depending on what we are doing at the drop of a hat, more thors? churn out more roaches, fewer thors? make a bunch of mutas = win. The next time you check a terrans gas and are able to correctly determine exactly what he is going to be producing next you let me know, jackass. Youre comparing having several spent hundreds in resources, not to mention whole in game minutes of time for production structures to make a unit that takes 60 in game seconds to produce, to one, MAYBE two production structures by you and units that cost 1/3 and take half the time to build, keep grasping at straw there buddy | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:28 teamhozac wrote: Sorry were not all Marine King Prime and have the multi tasking to pressure, check opponents gas, keep up with macro, have the appropriate structures to make the appropriate units for what we THINK may be coming next based loosely on some timing/gas count/whatever. Not to mention, you could throw down a roach warren as well and just flip flop from mutas to roaches depending on what we are doing at the drop of a hat, more thors? churn out more roaches, fewer thors? make a bunch of mutas = win. The next time you check a terrans gas and are able to correctly determine exactly what he is going to be producing next you let me know, jackass. Youre comparing having several spent hundreds in resources, not to mention whole in game minutes of time for production structures to make a unit that takes 60 in game seconds to produce, to one, MAYBE two production structures by you and units that cost 1/3 and take half the time to build, keep grasping at straw there buddy If you can't perform a drop or scan and also have the mental capacity to take note of what tech buildings and the number of extractors they have then you need to get better, not complain. You're a moron if you think the Zerg can just change his mind and flip straight to roaches instead of mutas. The mineral gas ratio for mutas is 1:1, it's 3:1 for roaches. The Zerg has to drop all his extractors long in advance to have the gas available for mutas and if the Zerg didn't scout early thors coming out with minimal marine support he can't just unmine all that gas and trade it in for minerals. Not to mention going for mutas means you have to pass up on heavy upgrades to have the gas for the first wave meaning you'll have slow un-upgraded roaches. Do you realize that predicting what the Terran is going to make based on gas, rax timings and addons is a prerequisite to even get into diamond league as Zerg? If you don't have that basic skill as Zerg you will die to every cheese ever conceived by Terran. It seems every time I get into one of these discussions I meet another Terran who dismisses something Zergs do as a foundational element of their play as some sort of pro level mechanic they shouldn't be expected to utilize. You realize you can only produce as many units as you have the resources for right? You talk about the fact that it takes several minutes of production to to get those thors out, but before the first thor pops it could just as easily be +1 siege tanks to the Zerg if he ignores all other indicators. to get 20 mutas out, thats 2200 gas including the spire which is what, 3 to 3.5 minutes on 6 geysers of producing no other gas units, or upgrades whatsoever. That's a huge window in which you did not scan, did not drop and did not push in anyway that would have revealed several key indicators. | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
You also don't have marines, because, well, mech. This leaves only scans to scout. If the Zerg is smart, the Spire will be in an awkward location. It could be at the expansion and you miss it by scanning the main, or anything like that. Terran W/R in TvZ is very high in the early game and drops dramatically in the late game, simply because Zerg IS very flexible. You never know if the Zerg is remaxing on Ultras or BLs, and YES if you play mech the Zerg will have 2000/2000 in the bank. You could expect 6 Mutas and a bunch of Roaches or 20 Mutas and a double expand. It's not like you can immediately punish this, as you always have to leapfrog forward with your tanks to avoid... dying, especially now that the maps are getting bigger and bigger. | ||
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Putain_De_Putois
France9 Posts
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 16 2012 19:00 Kukaracha wrote: Dropping before the 10 minute mark as mech is impossible. I would even say that dropping as mech against a good player is impossible, too. Hellions? The medivac gets spotted long before it reaches the base. Using a Viking before that? The Zerg will become suspicious and send units where the drop is expected. You also don't have marines, because, well, mech. This leaves only scans to scout. If the Zerg is smart, the Spire will be in an awkward location. It could be at the expansion and you miss it by scanning the main, or anything like that. Terran W/R in TvZ is very high in the early game and drops dramatically in the late game, simply because Zerg IS very flexible. You never know if the Zerg is remaxing on Ultras or BLs, and YES if you play mech the Zerg will have 2000/2000 in the bank. You could expect 6 Mutas and a bunch of Roaches or 20 Mutas and a double expand. It's not like you can immediately punish this, as you always have to leapfrog forward with your tanks to avoid... dying, especially now that the maps are getting bigger and bigger. Thank you, this guy gets it... nutjob up there is just ranting and being overly negative and disargreeing for whatever reason | ||
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ETisME
12676 Posts
On April 16 2012 19:00 Kukaracha wrote: Dropping before the 10 minute mark as mech is impossible. I would even say that dropping as mech against a good player is impossible, too. Hellions? The medivac gets spotted long before it reaches the base. Using a Viking before that? The Zerg will become suspicious and send units where the drop is expected. You also don't have marines, because, well, mech. This leaves only scans to scout. If the Zerg is smart, the Spire will be in an awkward location. It could be at the expansion and you miss it by scanning the main, or anything like that. Terran W/R in TvZ is very high in the early game and drops dramatically in the late game, simply because Zerg IS very flexible. You never know if the Zerg is remaxing on Ultras or BLs, and YES if you play mech the Zerg will have 2000/2000 in the bank. You could expect 6 Mutas and a bunch of Roaches or 20 Mutas and a double expand. It's not like you can immediately punish this, as you always have to leapfrog forward with your tanks to avoid... dying, especially now that the maps are getting bigger and bigger. drop is much more than doing damage, it force a respond from the zerg to build units, keep him in his base while you macro-ing up, make his units out of positioned. but it is true that mech terran doesn't drop before 10 mins, there is no reason. A mech terran only needs to use hellions to delay the 3rd, building up the terran deathball. And use hellions to do run-bys in mid to late games. And remaxing another deathball for zerg takes quite a long time. It is true that zerg can remax the fastest but ultras takes 55 seconds, it takes even longer to morph broodlords from corruptors and have enough infestors' energy to support them. zerg only has 2000/2000 resources in late game, where it is difficult to break a well defensive terran. if zerg is still stucked at muta/roaches against a mech terran in late game, he will lose to a mech deathball. You need a strong broodlord army to deal with mech with good upgrades. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 16 2012 12:50 Ziggitz wrote: If you can't perform a drop or scan and also have the mental capacity to take note of what tech buildings and the number of extractors they have then you need to get better, not complain. You're a moron if you think the Zerg can just change his mind and flip straight to roaches instead of mutas. The mineral gas ratio for mutas is 1:1, it's 3:1 for roaches. The Zerg has to drop all his extractors long in advance to have the gas available for mutas and if the Zerg didn't scout early thors coming out with minimal marine support he can't just unmine all that gas and trade it in for minerals. Not to mention going for mutas means you have to pass up on heavy upgrades to have the gas for the first wave meaning you'll have slow un-upgraded roaches. Do you realize that predicting what the Terran is going to make based on gas, rax timings and addons is a prerequisite to even get into diamond league as Zerg? If you don't have that basic skill as Zerg you will die to every cheese ever conceived by Terran. It seems every time I get into one of these discussions I meet another Terran who dismisses something Zergs do as a foundational element of their play as some sort of pro level mechanic they shouldn't be expected to utilize. You realize you can only produce as many units as you have the resources for right? You talk about the fact that it takes several minutes of production to to get those thors out, but before the first thor pops it could just as easily be +1 siege tanks to the Zerg if he ignores all other indicators. to get 20 mutas out, thats 2200 gas including the spire which is what, 3 to 3.5 minutes on 6 geysers of producing no other gas units, or upgrades whatsoever. That's a huge window in which you did not scan, did not drop and did not push in anyway that would have revealed several key indicators. Youre just nitpicking every little minor detail, while still missing the overall picture. As the guy above me stated, when you go mech, youre not dropping, youre just not. You do not have the gas to be wasting on early starports/medevacs while also getting tanks/thors/upgrades. And just because you build a spire and save up gas doesn't mean you HAVE to spend it on a certain unit, what is stopping you from seeing those thors and being like or crap i better not make mutas? You can use the gas for upgrades, hive tech, anything, gas is always useful to have in the bank. And for all intensive purposes, you could make 10 mutas at 1000/1000 and still accomplish the same thing if he is really light on thors. Not to mention how slow they are you can harass the hell out of his expo/main while he is pushing across the map and if he doesnt have turrets up it is basically gg. Stop trying to nitpick every little minor detail and make my post seem invalid, because it is not working. | ||
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ETisME
12676 Posts
On April 16 2012 19:59 teamhozac wrote: Youre just nitpicking every little minor detail, while still missing the overall picture. As the guy above me stated, when you go mech, youre not dropping, youre just not. You do not have the gas to be wasting on early starports/medevacs while also getting tanks/thors/upgrades. And just because you build a spire and save up gas doesn't mean you HAVE to spend it on a certain unit, what is stopping you from seeing those thors and being like or crap i better not make mutas? You can use the gas for upgrades, hive tech, anything, gas is always useful to have in the bank. And for all intensive purposes, you could make 10 mutas at 1000/1000 and still accomplish the same thing if he is really light on thors. Not to mention how slow they are you can harass the hell out of his expo/main while he is pushing across the map and if he doesnt have turrets up it is basically gg. Stop trying to nitpick every little minor detail and make my post seem invalid, because it is not working. actually you don't really get my point. Drops and run-by serves a very similar purposes. Keeping units at his main, make him out of position, make him respond by making units, the drone kill is just an additional gain. This is why you will see terran dropping hellions and doing runby from time to time, even if the hellions will be killed easily. The reason why mech is so strong is that terran can turtle really hard and rendering any muta/roach aggression kind of useless. You could beat a 6 mining base+ zerg with just a 4 bases as long as you turtled well. You are talking as if the terran ONLY makes thors if the zerg is getting muta, which isn't true. A mech terran always get a good mix of tanks, thors, vikings/banshee and raven in late game. Mech are super defensive play and a mech pushout with scv repairing is one of the strongest deathball in the game. The game is basically, zerg trying to delay terran mech from getting too big using muta, or constantly roach pressure while teching up to broodlords and hopefully win the game from there. For terran, it is to get a good mix of units and upgrades and secure bases, delaying zerg getting the drone count by blueflamehellion runbys and drops and push out with an ultra strong army. The reason why Zerg still gets muta even when thors are out is because it slows down the terran mech, abuse the immobility. Roach drop just serve a similar purpose | ||
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