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On April 23 2012 02:50 biology]major wrote:
my thoughts on sc2 atm.
marauders, roaches, and colossus should be removed from the game.
income rate should be decreased, maybe 60-70% of what it is now. Meaning you would need 4 expansions at least to be close to 200 supply. The way it is right now people can max anywhere from 11- 15 minutes, off 3 bases which will always produce boring death ball situations.
Making it a game where no one attacks before 3 expansions would not be a good solution
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On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
If people want warpgate to ever become balanced and add back in the dynamic of defender's advantage to Protoss in all three match-ups there is a very simple solution that blizzard can implement to Heart of the Swarm that will make it impossible to do random warp-gate all-ins across the entire map.
And no, it's not really arguable that warp-in is balanced - it defies one of the principle concepts of wargames which is travel distance.
To keep warp-in in the game to allow Protoss their unique race advantage but not make it overwhelming in lategame or too good with all-ins like it currently is Blizzard can do the following things.
Blizzard can make it so Protoss is only allowed to warp-in units in proximity to their nexus's or the gateways themselves. They can add in a late-game research/upgrade that allows protoss players to build a pylon and pay a cost of minerals/small gas cost to turn that pylon into a "warp-in pylon." What this does, is it still allows protoss players to abuse warp-in defensively, but now in mid-game Protoss players cannot randomly 2 base warp-in all-in without walking reinforcements across the map like a GOOD RTS game.
Of course, warpgate all-ins are still possible with use of the warp prism, which was the entire point of the warp prism in the first place, which is perfectly fine because then there is the investment of the robo + a warp prism, which inherently also makes protoss mass gate all-ins easier to scout.
This also fixes PvP making it possible to play games that aren't mostly 1 base vs 1 base because now reinforcements have to cross the entire map to reach the opponent, giving that defender's advantage...back to the defender.
Blizzard can fix warp-gate in a way like this and they know it is broken, but whether they "fix" it and add defender's advantage back into the game is up to them. Building a 100 mineral building allowing instant reinforcements is the key reason why PvP is such a trash match-up, PvT has problems lategame as well simply because of warping in chargelots, along with mid-game problems in terms of dice rolling gateway all-ins that have instant reinforcements and are very forgiving for the protoss player. PvZ warp-gate all-ins are also very easy to execute. So making it necessary to build a warp prism to do these all-ins, along with forcing protoss to walk reinforcements to battles...it just fixes the entire issue with warp-in.
And then Blizzard can decide if they want to allow protoss to build a 100 mineral building to upgrade lategame to allow warp-ins across the map that defy every RTS principle.
Well said, I agree 100% be prepared to get flamed by about 10 angry protoss players though, I already got them wound up about sentries.
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On April 23 2012 02:50 biology]major wrote:
my thoughts on sc2 atm.
marauders, roaches, and colossus should be removed from the game.
income rate should be decreased, maybe 60-70% of what it is now. Meaning you would need 4 expansions at least to be close to 200 supply. The way it is right now people can max anywhere from 11- 15 minutes, off 3 bases which will always produce boring death ball situations.
I agree with this. Boring beefy units (like those mentioned) should be removed, or tweaked to fill different roles. Same thing with Reapers, Void Rays, and Corruptors. Every unit doesn't need to fill 1 role and just 1 role only. Units with multiples uses will always be better than those that are locked in.
And the income tweak is pretty spot on. The game needs to be slowed down. There should be units that can lock down an area (similar to spider mines and whatnot), and control space, to make these matches actually feel like a strategic war instead of throwing balls at each other.
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On April 23 2012 03:09 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
If people want warpgate to ever become balanced and add back in the dynamic of defender's advantage to Protoss in all three match-ups there is a very simple solution that blizzard can implement to Heart of the Swarm that will make it impossible to do random warp-gate all-ins across the entire map.
And no, it's not really arguable that warp-in is balanced - it defies one of the principle concepts of wargames which is travel distance.
To keep warp-in in the game to allow Protoss their unique race advantage but not make it overwhelming in lategame or too good with all-ins like it currently is Blizzard can do the following things.
Blizzard can make it so Protoss is only allowed to warp-in units in proximity to their nexus's or the gateways themselves. They can add in a late-game research/upgrade that allows protoss players to build a pylon and pay a cost of minerals/small gas cost to turn that pylon into a "warp-in pylon." What this does, is it still allows protoss players to abuse warp-in defensively, but now in mid-game Protoss players cannot randomly 2 base warp-in all-in without walking reinforcements across the map like a GOOD RTS game.
Of course, warpgate all-ins are still possible with use of the warp prism, which was the entire point of the warp prism in the first place, which is perfectly fine because then there is the investment of the robo + a warp prism, which inherently also makes protoss mass gate all-ins easier to scout.
This also fixes PvP making it possible to play games that aren't mostly 1 base vs 1 base because now reinforcements have to cross the entire map to reach the opponent, giving that defender's advantage...back to the defender.
Blizzard can fix warp-gate in a way like this and they know it is broken, but whether they "fix" it and add defender's advantage back into the game is up to them. Building a 100 mineral building allowing instant reinforcements is the key reason why PvP is such a trash match-up, PvT has problems lategame as well simply because of warping in chargelots, along with mid-game problems in terms of dice rolling gateway all-ins that have instant reinforcements and are very forgiving for the protoss player. PvZ warp-gate all-ins are also very easy to execute. So making it necessary to build a warp prism to do these all-ins, along with forcing protoss to walk reinforcements to battles...it just fixes the entire issue with warp-in.
And then Blizzard can decide if they want to allow protoss to build a 100 mineral building to upgrade lategame to allow warp-ins across the map that defy every RTS principle. Well said, I agree 100% be prepared to get flamed by about 10 angry protoss players though, I already got them wound up about sentries.
I like how you totally abandoned your argument to latch onto the first mildly reputable person to whine about Protoss.
If you can't hold a 6gate, you're just not playing well. Nothing to do with warpgate imbalance.
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It's not a stretch to say that maybe it's a bad design choice, balance aside.
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On April 23 2012 02:56 teamhozac wrote:
Apparently every protoss player on the site had their cornflakes pissed in this morning... You jokers need to calm down, I am offering suggestions to make sentry less abusable/annoying, not try and take it completely out of the game. I understand it has its purposes in the game, but it is a stupid, micro killing, and a hugely forgiving aspect of the game that needs to be looked at.
So when you get put on the spot and need to defend your (retarded) statements, you start telling us that protoss players are saying bullshit and arent being fair.
How about the option to autowin after 7 Scvs, bevause that one scv requires so much skill to makee...?!
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On April 23 2012 03:09 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
If people want warpgate to ever become balanced and add back in the dynamic of defender's advantage to Protoss in all three match-ups there is a very simple solution that blizzard can implement to Heart of the Swarm that will make it impossible to do random warp-gate all-ins across the entire map.
And no, it's not really arguable that warp-in is balanced - it defies one of the principle concepts of wargames which is travel distance.
To keep warp-in in the game to allow Protoss their unique race advantage but not make it overwhelming in lategame or too good with all-ins like it currently is Blizzard can do the following things.
Blizzard can make it so Protoss is only allowed to warp-in units in proximity to their nexus's or the gateways themselves. They can add in a late-game research/upgrade that allows protoss players to build a pylon and pay a cost of minerals/small gas cost to turn that pylon into a "warp-in pylon." What this does, is it still allows protoss players to abuse warp-in defensively, but now in mid-game Protoss players cannot randomly 2 base warp-in all-in without walking reinforcements across the map like a GOOD RTS game.
Of course, warpgate all-ins are still possible with use of the warp prism, which was the entire point of the warp prism in the first place, which is perfectly fine because then there is the investment of the robo + a warp prism, which inherently also makes protoss mass gate all-ins easier to scout.
This also fixes PvP making it possible to play games that aren't mostly 1 base vs 1 base because now reinforcements have to cross the entire map to reach the opponent, giving that defender's advantage...back to the defender.
Blizzard can fix warp-gate in a way like this and they know it is broken, but whether they "fix" it and add defender's advantage back into the game is up to them. Building a 100 mineral building allowing instant reinforcements is the key reason why PvP is such a trash match-up, PvT has problems lategame as well simply because of warping in chargelots, along with mid-game problems in terms of dice rolling gateway all-ins that have instant reinforcements and are very forgiving for the protoss player. PvZ warp-gate all-ins are also very easy to execute. So making it necessary to build a warp prism to do these all-ins, along with forcing protoss to walk reinforcements to battles...it just fixes the entire issue with warp-in.
And then Blizzard can decide if they want to allow protoss to build a 100 mineral building to upgrade lategame to allow warp-ins across the map that defy every RTS principle. Well said, I agree 100% be prepared to get flamed by about 10 angry protoss players though, I already got them wound up about sentries. How would you respond if my idea for total fix of all imbalance in this game would be to, just to say something awesome, prolonge supply depot build time to 500 seconds because a wall makes it to hard to scout.
Awesome idea but i am prepared to take flaming from 10 wound up terran players.
We respond angry because you make retarded claims and dont defend them. Moron
Avilos idea is well explained and thought true instead of a silly claim. You think we like dependence kn all ins or sentry and dumb pvp!?
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On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
If people want warpgate to ever become balanced and add back in the dynamic of defender's advantage to Protoss in all three match-ups there is a very simple solution that blizzard can implement to Heart of the Swarm that will make it impossible to do random warp-gate all-ins across the entire map.
And no, it's not really arguable that warp-in is balanced - it defies one of the principle concepts of wargames which is travel distance.
To keep warp-in in the game to allow Protoss their unique race advantage but not make it overwhelming in lategame or too good with all-ins like it currently is Blizzard can do the following things.
Blizzard can make it so Protoss is only allowed to warp-in units in proximity to their nexus's or the gateways themselves. They can add in a late-game research/upgrade that allows protoss players to build a pylon and pay a cost of minerals/small gas cost to turn that pylon into a "warp-in pylon." What this does, is it still allows protoss players to abuse warp-in defensively, but now in mid-game Protoss players cannot randomly 2 base warp-in all-in without walking reinforcements across the map like a GOOD RTS game.
Of course, warpgate all-ins are still possible with use of the warp prism, which was the entire point of the warp prism in the first place, which is perfectly fine because then there is the investment of the robo + a warp prism, which inherently also makes protoss mass gate all-ins easier to scout.
This also fixes PvP making it possible to play games that aren't mostly 1 base vs 1 base because now reinforcements have to cross the entire map to reach the opponent, giving that defender's advantage...back to the defender.
Blizzard can fix warp-gate in a way like this and they know it is broken, but whether they "fix" it and add defender's advantage back into the game is up to them. Building a 100 mineral building allowing instant reinforcements is the key reason why PvP is such a trash match-up, PvT has problems lategame as well simply because of warping in chargelots, along with mid-game problems in terms of dice rolling gateway all-ins that have instant reinforcements and are very forgiving for the protoss player. PvZ warp-gate all-ins are also very easy to execute. So making it necessary to build a warp prism to do these all-ins, along with forcing protoss to walk reinforcements to battles...it just fixes the entire issue with warp-in.
And then Blizzard can decide if they want to allow protoss to build a 100 mineral building to upgrade lategame to allow warp-ins across the map that defy every RTS principle.
As a toss, I kind of like this solution. Proximity to nexus warpgate and an upgrade to individual pylons in the late stage (maybe allow probes to build this upgraded pylon from the get go, I don't know). My only gripe with this is that is generally kills any 2 base all ins that we can do. As a whole, the protoss army is pretty slow (I know blink stalkers can zip around but I'm talking about a cohesive force), and we would really only be able to push with huge armies if we can't rely on quick reenforcements. Has anyone ever made a custom map that plays with these mechanics? I'd be curious to play with some of the changes suggested.
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[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:33 Toastie wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:09 teamhozac wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
We respond angry because you make retarded claims and dont defend them. Moron
Avilos idea is well explained and thought true instead of a silly claim. You think we like dependence kn all ins or sentry and dumb pvp!?[/QUOTE]
Im coming up with reasonable ideas to limit sentries power and youre making ridiculous statements and name calling, whos the mature one here?
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[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:44 teamhozac wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:33 Toastie wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:09 teamhozac wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
We respond angry because you make retarded claims and dont defend them. Moron
Avilos idea is well explained and thought true instead of a silly claim. You think we like dependence kn all ins or sentry and dumb pvp!?[/QUOTE]
Im coming up with reasonable ideas to limit sentries power and youre making ridiculous statements and name calling, whos the mature one here?[/QUOTE]
You're being ridiculous, though, because every time a Protoss points out that certain things would be essentially impossible to hold, you say that we need to play less greedily or scout more, which betrays your lack of knowledge about the race/game in general.
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Protoss play style variety is already extremely.. not robust. Outside of cheese, the landscape is almost all made up by 2 base all ins and 200/200 turtling that tends to be very shaky in the midgame. Large, holistic changes that toned down the 2BAi I'm all for, but we need better harass-based early and midgame styles, and maybe a little safer economic styles.
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Pre-maxed timing attacks and pre-maxed mass expanding are sorely missing, too, which is a little part of why the 200/200 style dominates so much of protoss play.
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On April 23 2012 03:18 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:09 teamhozac wrote:On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
If people want warpgate to ever become balanced and add back in the dynamic of defender's advantage to Protoss in all three match-ups there is a very simple solution that blizzard can implement to Heart of the Swarm that will make it impossible to do random warp-gate all-ins across the entire map.
And no, it's not really arguable that warp-in is balanced - it defies one of the principle concepts of wargames which is travel distance.
To keep warp-in in the game to allow Protoss their unique race advantage but not make it overwhelming in lategame or too good with all-ins like it currently is Blizzard can do the following things.
Blizzard can make it so Protoss is only allowed to warp-in units in proximity to their nexus's or the gateways themselves. They can add in a late-game research/upgrade that allows protoss players to build a pylon and pay a cost of minerals/small gas cost to turn that pylon into a "warp-in pylon." What this does, is it still allows protoss players to abuse warp-in defensively, but now in mid-game Protoss players cannot randomly 2 base warp-in all-in without walking reinforcements across the map like a GOOD RTS game.
Of course, warpgate all-ins are still possible with use of the warp prism, which was the entire point of the warp prism in the first place, which is perfectly fine because then there is the investment of the robo + a warp prism, which inherently also makes protoss mass gate all-ins easier to scout.
This also fixes PvP making it possible to play games that aren't mostly 1 base vs 1 base because now reinforcements have to cross the entire map to reach the opponent, giving that defender's advantage...back to the defender.
Blizzard can fix warp-gate in a way like this and they know it is broken, but whether they "fix" it and add defender's advantage back into the game is up to them. Building a 100 mineral building allowing instant reinforcements is the key reason why PvP is such a trash match-up, PvT has problems lategame as well simply because of warping in chargelots, along with mid-game problems in terms of dice rolling gateway all-ins that have instant reinforcements and are very forgiving for the protoss player. PvZ warp-gate all-ins are also very easy to execute. So making it necessary to build a warp prism to do these all-ins, along with forcing protoss to walk reinforcements to battles...it just fixes the entire issue with warp-in.
And then Blizzard can decide if they want to allow protoss to build a 100 mineral building to upgrade lategame to allow warp-ins across the map that defy every RTS principle. Well said, I agree 100% be prepared to get flamed by about 10 angry protoss players though, I already got them wound up about sentries. I like how you totally abandoned your argument to latch onto the first mildly reputable person to whine about Protoss. If you can't hold a 6gate, you're just not playing well. Nothing to do with warpgate imbalance.
Good thing him being able to hold a 6 gate or not has no bearing on Warp Gates strength. It's imbalanced, end of story.
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On April 23 2012 03:57 Resistentialism wrote:
Protoss play style variety is already extremely.. not robust. Outside of cheese, the landscape is almost all made up by 2 base all ins and 200/200 turtling that tends to be very shaky in the midgame. Large, holistic changes that toned down the 2BAi I'm all for, but we need better harass-based early and midgame styles, and maybe a little safer economic styles.
Most of the time it's a 2- base all in that transitions into turtling...
Protoss goes all in off 1 or 2 base. Does good damage, wins the game. Doesn't do significant damage? Turtle and slowly take expansions through the "relatively weak" period after all inning. Hit 3-4 base, instant win. That's standard Protoss strategy now. Go like 7 gate, robo, stargate, double forge, templar on 2 base. Then Expo. WTF?
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[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:44 teamhozac wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:33 Toastie wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:09 teamhozac wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
We respond angry because you make retarded claims and dont defend them. Moron
Avilos idea is well explained and thought true instead of a silly claim. You think we like dependence kn all ins or sentry and dumb pvp!?[/QUOTE]
Im coming up with reasonable ideas to limit sentries power and youre making ridiculous statements and name calling, whos the mature one here?[/QUOTE]
Im telling you your idea are not reasonable but stupid, you ignore any question asked and call us angry protosses afraid of learning to play. Who's the mature one here?
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On April 23 2012 04:09 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:18 Shiori wrote:On April 23 2012 03:09 teamhozac wrote:On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
If people want warpgate to ever become balanced and add back in the dynamic of defender's advantage to Protoss in all three match-ups there is a very simple solution that blizzard can implement to Heart of the Swarm that will make it impossible to do random warp-gate all-ins across the entire map.
And no, it's not really arguable that warp-in is balanced - it defies one of the principle concepts of wargames which is travel distance.
To keep warp-in in the game to allow Protoss their unique race advantage but not make it overwhelming in lategame or too good with all-ins like it currently is Blizzard can do the following things.
Blizzard can make it so Protoss is only allowed to warp-in units in proximity to their nexus's or the gateways themselves. They can add in a late-game research/upgrade that allows protoss players to build a pylon and pay a cost of minerals/small gas cost to turn that pylon into a "warp-in pylon." What this does, is it still allows protoss players to abuse warp-in defensively, but now in mid-game Protoss players cannot randomly 2 base warp-in all-in without walking reinforcements across the map like a GOOD RTS game.
Of course, warpgate all-ins are still possible with use of the warp prism, which was the entire point of the warp prism in the first place, which is perfectly fine because then there is the investment of the robo + a warp prism, which inherently also makes protoss mass gate all-ins easier to scout.
This also fixes PvP making it possible to play games that aren't mostly 1 base vs 1 base because now reinforcements have to cross the entire map to reach the opponent, giving that defender's advantage...back to the defender.
Blizzard can fix warp-gate in a way like this and they know it is broken, but whether they "fix" it and add defender's advantage back into the game is up to them. Building a 100 mineral building allowing instant reinforcements is the key reason why PvP is such a trash match-up, PvT has problems lategame as well simply because of warping in chargelots, along with mid-game problems in terms of dice rolling gateway all-ins that have instant reinforcements and are very forgiving for the protoss player. PvZ warp-gate all-ins are also very easy to execute. So making it necessary to build a warp prism to do these all-ins, along with forcing protoss to walk reinforcements to battles...it just fixes the entire issue with warp-in.
And then Blizzard can decide if they want to allow protoss to build a 100 mineral building to upgrade lategame to allow warp-ins across the map that defy every RTS principle. Well said, I agree 100% be prepared to get flamed by about 10 angry protoss players though, I already got them wound up about sentries. I like how you totally abandoned your argument to latch onto the first mildly reputable person to whine about Protoss. If you can't hold a 6gate, you're just not playing well. Nothing to do with warpgate imbalance. Good thing him being able to hold a 6 gate or not has no bearing on Warp Gates strength. It's imbalanced, end of story.
It's imbalanced in the sense that it's not a very good idea. Suggestions like Avilo's or teamhozac's, though, are silly because they basically totally remove a facet of the race without considering the fact that the Zealot and Stalker and Sentry have been systematically nerfed in order to compensate for the relative strength of WG. You can't just nerf WG without restoring some of the luster of the units, especially since it's not like Protoss is chewing through every Terran or Zerg right now.
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On April 23 2012 04:11 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:57 Resistentialism wrote:
Protoss play style variety is already extremely.. not robust. Outside of cheese, the landscape is almost all made up by 2 base all ins and 200/200 turtling that tends to be very shaky in the midgame. Large, holistic changes that toned down the 2BAi I'm all for, but we need better harass-based early and midgame styles, and maybe a little safer economic styles. Most of the time it's a 2- base all in that transitions into turtling... Protoss goes all in off 1 or 2 base. Does good damage, wins the game. Doesn't do significant damage? Turtle and slowly take expansions through the "relatively weak" period after all inning. Hit 3-4 base, instant win. That's standard Protoss strategy now. Go like 7 gate, robo, stargate, double forge, templar on 2 base. Then Expo. WTF?
Hey, great post, real helpful.
Oh wait, this is the balance thread not the Hots thread. I guess you're actually in the right here.
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On April 23 2012 04:11 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:57 Resistentialism wrote:
Protoss play style variety is already extremely.. not robust. Outside of cheese, the landscape is almost all made up by 2 base all ins and 200/200 turtling that tends to be very shaky in the midgame. Large, holistic changes that toned down the 2BAi I'm all for, but we need better harass-based early and midgame styles, and maybe a little safer economic styles. Most of the time it's a 2- base all in that transitions into turtling... Protoss goes all in off 1 or 2 base. Does good damage, wins the game. Doesn't do significant damage? Turtle and slowly take expansions through the "relatively weak" period after all inning. Hit 3-4 base, instant win. That's standard Protoss strategy now. Go like 7 gate, robo, stargate, double forge, templar on 2 base. Then Expo. WTF?
Do you actually play? Pretty sure no Protoss players are macroing out of failed 7gate all-ins.
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Therers a lot more name calling than balance discussion going on here.
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On April 23 2012 04:58 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 04:11 SupLilSon wrote:On April 23 2012 03:57 Resistentialism wrote:
Protoss play style variety is already extremely.. not robust. Outside of cheese, the landscape is almost all made up by 2 base all ins and 200/200 turtling that tends to be very shaky in the midgame. Large, holistic changes that toned down the 2BAi I'm all for, but we need better harass-based early and midgame styles, and maybe a little safer economic styles. Most of the time it's a 2- base all in that transitions into turtling... Protoss goes all in off 1 or 2 base. Does good damage, wins the game. Doesn't do significant damage? Turtle and slowly take expansions through the "relatively weak" period after all inning. Hit 3-4 base, instant win. That's standard Protoss strategy now. Go like 7 gate, robo, stargate, double forge, templar on 2 base. Then Expo. WTF? Do you actually play? Pretty sure no Protoss players are macroing out of failed 7gate all-ins.
Have to agree with Shiori on this one, at a high level it is simply not viable and a counter push will destroy you if you didn't manage to do sufficient damage, e.g killing Zerg's third, and if you do manage to do sufficient damage, then the all-in worked.
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EPT
