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I would like to offer my brief insights and compare SC2 and SC:BW.
SC:BW is considered the most balanced RTS games in the industry. The reason is simply this: That SC:BW had clearer unit delineations as opposed to SC2. I want to start out by pointing out unit abilities that, I believe, make SC:BW amazing to watch, but also compare them to the current deficiencies of SC2. By focusing them into three specific categories, I humbly hope to perhaps have you consider these three categories as part of game development.
Abilities that ambush other units
Previously, SC:BW had units that could be used to set up elaborate ambushes. Zerg had the infamous Lurker; Terran had Spider Mines; Protoss don't really have anything, unless you want to count DTs.
In SC2, however, ambushes have been, so far, only been used by Zerg (Banelings). Aside from DTs, which is not a new unit, it doesn't have anything; Terran has no such unit.
Abilities that remove other units/ buildings temporarily from combat
In SC:BW there were numerous spells that removed units and buildings from combat. Zerg had Dark Swarm; Terran had Lockdown; Protoss had Distruption Web and Stasis Field.
In SC2, Zerg has contaminate, but it was used maybe once by Nestea; Protoss has graviton beam, forcefield and vortex, but vortex comes from only one unique unit that is very expensive; Terran has nothing.
Abilities that make the opponent's unit a liability to his own army
In SC:BW, Zerg had Parasite and Infest Command Center; Protoss had mind control; Terran had irridiate.
In SC2, Zerg has Neural Parasite; Protoss and Terran has no such spell.
I humbly propose that SC2 game balancers relook some of these key points. Those are some of the elements that made SC:BW very complex and increased micro battles that made game play exciting, while giving the casual gamer so much more to play with.
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On April 23 2012 08:25 ke_ivan wrote:
I would like to offer my brief insights and compare SC2 and SC:BW.
SC:BW is considered the most balanced RTS games in the industry. The reason is simply this: That SC:BW had clearer unit delineations as opposed to SC2. I want to start out by pointing out unit abilities that, I believe, make SC:BW amazing to watch, but also compare them to the current deficiencies of SC2. By focusing them into three specific categories, I humbly hope to perhaps have you consider these three categories as part of game development.
Abilities that ambush other units
Previously, SC:BW had units that could be used to set up elaborate ambushes. Zerg had the infamous Lurker; Terran had Spider Mines; Protoss don't really have anything, unless you want to count DTs.
In SC2, however, ambushes have been, so far, only been used by Zerg (Banelings). Aside from DTs, which is not a new unit, it doesn't have anything; Terran has no such unit.
Abilities that remove other units/ buildings temporarily from combat
In SC:BW there were numerous spells that removed units and buildings from combat. Zerg had Dark Swarm; Terran had Lockdown; Protoss had Distruption Web and Stasis Field.
In SC2, Zerg has contaminate, but it was used maybe once by Nestea; Protoss has graviton beam, forcefield and vortex, but vortex comes from only one unique unit that is very expensive; Terran has nothing.
Abilities that make the opponent's unit a liability to his own army
In SC:BW, Zerg had Parasite and Infest Command Center; Protoss had mind control; Terran had irridiate.
In SC2, Zerg has Neural Parasite; Protoss and Terran has no such spell.
I humbly propose that SC2 game balancers relook some of these key points. Those are some of the elements that made SC:BW very complex and increased micro battles that made game play exciting, while giving the casual gamer so much more to play with.
Some good insights there bud, totally miss spider mines... although they were in the campaign, not sure why we cant have them multiplayer 
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On April 23 2012 07:52 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 07:42 da_head wrote:On April 23 2012 07:40 DoubleReed wrote:
Are people really just outright saying that stalkers and zealots are bad? Really? Well stalkers are pretty fucking terrible yes, zealots are good though (only with charge). What? It's more mobile than other ranged units in the early game. Blink shenanigans in the midgame. It's highly microable in all instances really. What's wrong with stalkers?
it's expensive as shit, slower than roaches and marauders (creep and stim), and is weaker than both of em. Vikings on the fucking ground do more dmg AND shoot faster (and vikings are regarded as being weak as shit on ground). s
So dont give me this highly mobile bullshit.
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I don't mind stalkers... but zealots....
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On April 23 2012 09:47 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 07:52 DoubleReed wrote:On April 23 2012 07:42 da_head wrote:On April 23 2012 07:40 DoubleReed wrote:
Are people really just outright saying that stalkers and zealots are bad? Really? Well stalkers are pretty fucking terrible yes, zealots are good though (only with charge). What? It's more mobile than other ranged units in the early game. Blink shenanigans in the midgame. It's highly microable in all instances really. What's wrong with stalkers? it's expensive as shit, slower than roaches and marauders (creep and stim), and is weaker than both of em. Vikings on the fucking ground do more dmg AND shoot faster (and vikings are regarded as being weak as shit on ground). s So dont give me this highly mobile bullshit.
Wow you must be blind or something, you do realize that stalkers attack ground AND air right? Something neither marauder or roaches can do. Early game stalkers can kite roaches all day, mid game they can blink away from both these units. They also have shield regen which is a huge plus and neithe roaches nor marauders have, there a reason they cost more. Oh, they also have 15 more HP than a roach and 35 more than a marauder... anything else? Oh yea and vikings get raped on the ground by stalkers, and just about every other unit in the game... troll elsewhere plz
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On April 23 2012 08:04 Dauntless wrote:
Saying Stalkers are terrible is quite silly.
Saying Stalkers are great would also be quite silly, not because they are/aren't, but because it has to be put into context.
Stalkers are terrible when you a-move them into a group of MM. Stalkers are terrible when they are up against Ling/Roach and you don't blink micro.
While Stalkers are great when you are up against pure Roach and you have blink. And Stalkers are great when you blink into someones base because their units are out of positions. Stalkers are great vs Marines without stim.
And even my examples have a lot of exceptions.
Why do some people try to make everything so black or white?
In my personal opinion, the Stalker is one of the units in the game which usefulness is determined by the skill of the player, which is the kind of unit I like.
That's the problem. Stalkers are great. They are worth their wight in gold IF you can micro them well enough. Stalkers are perfectly balanced from my pov. Not the stalkers are the problem, but the other units. Making a stalker valuable is much harder, than making marauders, roaches or lings valuable
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On April 23 2012 09:53 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:47 da_head wrote:On April 23 2012 07:52 DoubleReed wrote:On April 23 2012 07:42 da_head wrote:On April 23 2012 07:40 DoubleReed wrote:
Are people really just outright saying that stalkers and zealots are bad? Really? Well stalkers are pretty fucking terrible yes, zealots are good though (only with charge). What? It's more mobile than other ranged units in the early game. Blink shenanigans in the midgame. It's highly microable in all instances really. What's wrong with stalkers? it's expensive as shit, slower than roaches and marauders (creep and stim), and is weaker than both of em. Vikings on the fucking ground do more dmg AND shoot faster (and vikings are regarded as being weak as shit on ground). s So dont give me this highly mobile bullshit. Wow you must be blind or something, you do realize that stalkers attack ground AND air right? Something neither marauder or roaches can do. Early game stalkers can kite roaches all day, mid game they can blink away from both these units. They also have shield regen which is a huge plus and neithe roaches nor marauders have, there a reason they cost more. Oh, they also have 15 more HP than a roach and 35 more than a marauder... anything else? Oh yea and vikings get raped on the ground by stalkers, and just about every other unit in the game... troll elsewhere plz
None of these things make them particularly good as a defensive unit in the early game. They're fine as a harassment unit, sure, and they can pick away at armies moving forward, but we're talking about the early game here. If you mess with FF or WG, the unit becomes too weak for what it does, and the Zealot becomes even more useless without FFs to ensure it actually gets near MM.
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On April 23 2012 02:56 teamhozac wrote:
Apparently every protoss player on the site had their cornflakes pissed in this morning... You jokers need to calm down, I am offering suggestions to make sentry less abusable/annoying, not try and take it completely out of the game. I understand it has its purposes in the game, but it is a stupid, micro killing, and a hugely forgiving aspect of the game that needs to be looked at.
Actually I play Terran. Regardless, please continue making a fool of yourself. It's entertaining!
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Stalkers are fine, zealots are fine, but a protoss player with stalker/zealot with no sentries and no warpgate would almost always be unable to compete with MM with tech lab upgrades or roach/speedling. And by 'compete' I don't only just mean straight up fights, but also simply being able to secure the resources and time necessary to tech and build an army, and without being wholly predictable.
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I wonder if it's possible to introduce short maps into this game again or if the poor design of toss means that we'll have to see these safe third sorts of maps for the rest of SC if we want viable toss competitors.
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On April 23 2012 10:16 malaan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:56 teamhozac wrote:
Apparently every protoss player on the site had their cornflakes pissed in this morning... You jokers need to calm down, I am offering suggestions to make sentry less abusable/annoying, not try and take it completely out of the game. I understand it has its purposes in the game, but it is a stupid, micro killing, and a hugely forgiving aspect of the game that needs to be looked at. Actually I play Terran. Regardless, please continue making a fool of yourself. It's entertaining!
Haha youre so funny, so clever! Guess who doesnt care what race you play? <this guy, keep trolling though bro, youre making yourself look very mature
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On April 23 2012 03:42 ThirdDegree wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
If people want warpgate to ever become balanced and add back in the dynamic of defender's advantage to Protoss in all three match-ups there is a very simple solution that blizzard can implement to Heart of the Swarm that will make it impossible to do random warp-gate all-ins across the entire map.
And no, it's not really arguable that warp-in is balanced - it defies one of the principle concepts of wargames which is travel distance.
To keep warp-in in the game to allow Protoss their unique race advantage but not make it overwhelming in lategame or too good with all-ins like it currently is Blizzard can do the following things.
Blizzard can make it so Protoss is only allowed to warp-in units in proximity to their nexus's or the gateways themselves. They can add in a late-game research/upgrade that allows protoss players to build a pylon and pay a cost of minerals/small gas cost to turn that pylon into a "warp-in pylon." What this does, is it still allows protoss players to abuse warp-in defensively, but now in mid-game Protoss players cannot randomly 2 base warp-in all-in without walking reinforcements across the map like a GOOD RTS game.
Of course, warpgate all-ins are still possible with use of the warp prism, which was the entire point of the warp prism in the first place, which is perfectly fine because then there is the investment of the robo + a warp prism, which inherently also makes protoss mass gate all-ins easier to scout.
This also fixes PvP making it possible to play games that aren't mostly 1 base vs 1 base because now reinforcements have to cross the entire map to reach the opponent, giving that defender's advantage...back to the defender.
Blizzard can fix warp-gate in a way like this and they know it is broken, but whether they "fix" it and add defender's advantage back into the game is up to them. Building a 100 mineral building allowing instant reinforcements is the key reason why PvP is such a trash match-up, PvT has problems lategame as well simply because of warping in chargelots, along with mid-game problems in terms of dice rolling gateway all-ins that have instant reinforcements and are very forgiving for the protoss player. PvZ warp-gate all-ins are also very easy to execute. So making it necessary to build a warp prism to do these all-ins, along with forcing protoss to walk reinforcements to battles...it just fixes the entire issue with warp-in.
And then Blizzard can decide if they want to allow protoss to build a 100 mineral building to upgrade lategame to allow warp-ins across the map that defy every RTS principle. As a toss, I kind of like this solution. Proximity to nexus warpgate and an upgrade to individual pylons in the late stage (maybe allow probes to build this upgraded pylon from the get go, I don't know). My only gripe with this is that is generally kills any 2 base all ins that we can do. As a whole, the protoss army is pretty slow (I know blink stalkers can zip around but I'm talking about a cohesive force), and we would really only be able to push with huge armies if we can't rely on quick reenforcements. Has anyone ever made a custom map that plays with these mechanics? I'd be curious to play with some of the changes suggested.
This would cause tons of problems for Protoss. Since it would horribly limit your surface area to warp in units. What happens if you start to sim city? Suddenly you've got pretty minimal space to warp in units.
Protoss units are so painfully slow that they would all die walking across the map to rally up with your army. Unlike zerg and terran you don't produce mass amounts of Protoss units at once, and your measly reinforcement army would get eaten alive by just about anything in the middle of the map.
Also remember that if you're keeping warpgate, unlike the other races once you have warpgate you're not rallying your units, so the whole principle of how Protoss attacks relies on the fact that your reinforcements arrive right at the battle. Unlike zerg and terran units, they're all really expensive, flimsy, and only come 4-8 at a time.
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Over simplifying a touch but as a toss stalkers are kind of what you build when zealots are no longer acceptable/ you are forced to.
Against pure roach there are timings where you can get momentum and have more effective dps. After that point though even with blink they can't really justify their cost/ go marauding effectively on their own.
Against marines... well if we could kite them perfectly and take no dps then they would be good. Right now it's their value not their micro ability that makes them viable v small groups of marines.
It's not black and white but the general statement that stalkers are generally pretty shitty is true. It would be nice for them to trade decently atleast with air.
Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. -Bisu
Stalkers trade just fine with air units, not sure what youre on about
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On April 23 2012 10:32 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:42 ThirdDegree wrote:On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
If people want warpgate to ever become balanced and add back in the dynamic of defender's advantage to Protoss in all three match-ups there is a very simple solution that blizzard can implement to Heart of the Swarm that will make it impossible to do random warp-gate all-ins across the entire map.
And no, it's not really arguable that warp-in is balanced - it defies one of the principle concepts of wargames which is travel distance.
To keep warp-in in the game to allow Protoss their unique race advantage but not make it overwhelming in lategame or too good with all-ins like it currently is Blizzard can do the following things.
Blizzard can make it so Protoss is only allowed to warp-in units in proximity to their nexus's or the gateways themselves. They can add in a late-game research/upgrade that allows protoss players to build a pylon and pay a cost of minerals/small gas cost to turn that pylon into a "warp-in pylon." What this does, is it still allows protoss players to abuse warp-in defensively, but now in mid-game Protoss players cannot randomly 2 base warp-in all-in without walking reinforcements across the map like a GOOD RTS game.
Of course, warpgate all-ins are still possible with use of the warp prism, which was the entire point of the warp prism in the first place, which is perfectly fine because then there is the investment of the robo + a warp prism, which inherently also makes protoss mass gate all-ins easier to scout.
This also fixes PvP making it possible to play games that aren't mostly 1 base vs 1 base because now reinforcements have to cross the entire map to reach the opponent, giving that defender's advantage...back to the defender.
Blizzard can fix warp-gate in a way like this and they know it is broken, but whether they "fix" it and add defender's advantage back into the game is up to them. Building a 100 mineral building allowing instant reinforcements is the key reason why PvP is such a trash match-up, PvT has problems lategame as well simply because of warping in chargelots, along with mid-game problems in terms of dice rolling gateway all-ins that have instant reinforcements and are very forgiving for the protoss player. PvZ warp-gate all-ins are also very easy to execute. So making it necessary to build a warp prism to do these all-ins, along with forcing protoss to walk reinforcements to battles...it just fixes the entire issue with warp-in.
And then Blizzard can decide if they want to allow protoss to build a 100 mineral building to upgrade lategame to allow warp-ins across the map that defy every RTS principle. As a toss, I kind of like this solution. Proximity to nexus warpgate and an upgrade to individual pylons in the late stage (maybe allow probes to build this upgraded pylon from the get go, I don't know). My only gripe with this is that is generally kills any 2 base all ins that we can do. As a whole, the protoss army is pretty slow (I know blink stalkers can zip around but I'm talking about a cohesive force), and we would really only be able to push with huge armies if we can't rely on quick reenforcements. Has anyone ever made a custom map that plays with these mechanics? I'd be curious to play with some of the changes suggested. This would cause tons of problems for Protoss. Since it would horribly limit your surface area to warp in units. What happens if you start to sim city? Suddenly you've got pretty minimal space to warp in units. Protoss units are so painfully slow that they would all die walking across the map to rally up with your army. Unlike zerg and terran you don't produce mass amounts of Protoss units at once, and your measly reinforcement army would get eaten alive by just about anything in the middle of the map. Also remember that if you're keeping warpgate, unlike the other races once you have warpgate you're not rallying your units, so the whole principle of how Protoss attacks relies on the fact that your reinforcements arrive right at the battle. Unlike zerg and terran units, they're all really expensive, flimsy, and only come 4-8 at a time.
Yeah because every terran is able to spit out more than 8 marauders at a time, lol
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Pretty frustrated with ZvP at the moment and I think the problems are pretty simple, Immortals and colossus and gateway units with upgrades just make most army compositions even with as much as a 50 supply advantage trade way too well against most regular mid game army compositions for the zerg. Ive kinda resorted to muta every single game or base trading because there is no army even with fast double upgrades and the supply advantage there is no way I can win against a pretty standard ball.
It just seems like im doing so much work to win a game and the protoss never scouts just does a pretty standard composition and wins without any effort what so ever. I can win but mainly its because either 1 they make a mistake or 2 I manage to play absolutely perfectly. Any mistake and im dead and that isnt at all balanced.
As for ZvT I am having issues with mech at the moment and it really feels like a mindless win for the terran because every single unit is super effective against every unit for the zerg other than broodlords and they usually just make blind vikings to stop them. At the moment when I scout any sort of mech I just do a roach bust before they switch into tanks and hope they dont stop it. Other than that I do massive tech switches to win so roach->muta->ling depending on what they do but its really a coin flip.
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On April 23 2012 10:36 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:32 Durp wrote:On April 23 2012 03:42 ThirdDegree wrote:On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote:
If people want warpgate to ever become balanced and add back in the dynamic of defender's advantage to Protoss in all three match-ups there is a very simple solution that blizzard can implement to Heart of the Swarm that will make it impossible to do random warp-gate all-ins across the entire map.
And no, it's not really arguable that warp-in is balanced - it defies one of the principle concepts of wargames which is travel distance.
To keep warp-in in the game to allow Protoss their unique race advantage but not make it overwhelming in lategame or too good with all-ins like it currently is Blizzard can do the following things.
Blizzard can make it so Protoss is only allowed to warp-in units in proximity to their nexus's or the gateways themselves. They can add in a late-game research/upgrade that allows protoss players to build a pylon and pay a cost of minerals/small gas cost to turn that pylon into a "warp-in pylon." What this does, is it still allows protoss players to abuse warp-in defensively, but now in mid-game Protoss players cannot randomly 2 base warp-in all-in without walking reinforcements across the map like a GOOD RTS game.
Of course, warpgate all-ins are still possible with use of the warp prism, which was the entire point of the warp prism in the first place, which is perfectly fine because then there is the investment of the robo + a warp prism, which inherently also makes protoss mass gate all-ins easier to scout.
This also fixes PvP making it possible to play games that aren't mostly 1 base vs 1 base because now reinforcements have to cross the entire map to reach the opponent, giving that defender's advantage...back to the defender.
Blizzard can fix warp-gate in a way like this and they know it is broken, but whether they "fix" it and add defender's advantage back into the game is up to them. Building a 100 mineral building allowing instant reinforcements is the key reason why PvP is such a trash match-up, PvT has problems lategame as well simply because of warping in chargelots, along with mid-game problems in terms of dice rolling gateway all-ins that have instant reinforcements and are very forgiving for the protoss player. PvZ warp-gate all-ins are also very easy to execute. So making it necessary to build a warp prism to do these all-ins, along with forcing protoss to walk reinforcements to battles...it just fixes the entire issue with warp-in.
And then Blizzard can decide if they want to allow protoss to build a 100 mineral building to upgrade lategame to allow warp-ins across the map that defy every RTS principle. As a toss, I kind of like this solution. Proximity to nexus warpgate and an upgrade to individual pylons in the late stage (maybe allow probes to build this upgraded pylon from the get go, I don't know). My only gripe with this is that is generally kills any 2 base all ins that we can do. As a whole, the protoss army is pretty slow (I know blink stalkers can zip around but I'm talking about a cohesive force), and we would really only be able to push with huge armies if we can't rely on quick reenforcements. Has anyone ever made a custom map that plays with these mechanics? I'd be curious to play with some of the changes suggested. This would cause tons of problems for Protoss. Since it would horribly limit your surface area to warp in units. What happens if you start to sim city? Suddenly you've got pretty minimal space to warp in units. Protoss units are so painfully slow that they would all die walking across the map to rally up with your army. Unlike zerg and terran you don't produce mass amounts of Protoss units at once, and your measly reinforcement army would get eaten alive by just about anything in the middle of the map. Also remember that if you're keeping warpgate, unlike the other races once you have warpgate you're not rallying your units, so the whole principle of how Protoss attacks relies on the fact that your reinforcements arrive right at the battle. Unlike zerg and terran units, they're all really expensive, flimsy, and only come 4-8 at a time. Yeah because every terran is able to spit out more than 8 marauders at a time, lol
Marines are good verse almost everything and you can make those 2 at a time with reactors for only 50 minerals each!
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On April 23 2012 10:11 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:53 teamhozac wrote:On April 23 2012 09:47 da_head wrote:On April 23 2012 07:52 DoubleReed wrote:On April 23 2012 07:42 da_head wrote:On April 23 2012 07:40 DoubleReed wrote:
Are people really just outright saying that stalkers and zealots are bad? Really? Well stalkers are pretty fucking terrible yes, zealots are good though (only with charge). What? It's more mobile than other ranged units in the early game. Blink shenanigans in the midgame. It's highly microable in all instances really. What's wrong with stalkers? it's expensive as shit, slower than roaches and marauders (creep and stim), and is weaker than both of em. Vikings on the fucking ground do more dmg AND shoot faster (and vikings are regarded as being weak as shit on ground). s So dont give me this highly mobile bullshit. Wow you must be blind or something, you do realize that stalkers attack ground AND air right? Something neither marauder or roaches can do. Early game stalkers can kite roaches all day, mid game they can blink away from both these units. They also have shield regen which is a huge plus and neithe roaches nor marauders have, there a reason they cost more. Oh, they also have 15 more HP than a roach and 35 more than a marauder... anything else? Oh yea and vikings get raped on the ground by stalkers, and just about every other unit in the game... troll elsewhere plz None of these things make them particularly good as a defensive unit in the early game. They're fine as a harassment unit, sure, and they can pick away at armies moving forward, but we're talking about the early game here. If you mess with FF or WG, the unit becomes too weak for what it does, and the Zealot becomes even more useless without FFs to ensure it actually gets near MM.
so the truth comes out, u missed a ff and a 3 rax all in rush up your ramp and killed you. HAHA
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On April 23 2012 10:28 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:16 malaan wrote:On April 23 2012 02:56 teamhozac wrote:
Apparently every protoss player on the site had their cornflakes pissed in this morning... You jokers need to calm down, I am offering suggestions to make sentry less abusable/annoying, not try and take it completely out of the game. I understand it has its purposes in the game, but it is a stupid, micro killing, and a hugely forgiving aspect of the game that needs to be looked at. Actually I play Terran. Regardless, please continue making a fool of yourself. It's entertaining! Haha youre so funny, so clever! Guess who doesnt care what race you play? <this guy, keep trolling though bro, youre making yourself look very mature
you know reading through some of your responses and after your incompetent "Protoss is being babied" post its really hard to take anything you say as something serious or objective, and in general not to take you as the one who is trolling
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Personally I think the forge should have a separate upgrade section robo bay units. The tech switch that Protoss can do in the late game TvP to whatever it needs would be a lot less effective the upgrades had to be planned out from the beginning, kind of like how mech vs bio is for T. I see no reason why Terran has to do this but Protoss doesn't, especially because the Colossus is so strong as is.
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On April 23 2012 11:07 Warillions wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:11 Shiori wrote:On April 23 2012 09:53 teamhozac wrote:On April 23 2012 09:47 da_head wrote:On April 23 2012 07:52 DoubleReed wrote:On April 23 2012 07:42 da_head wrote:On April 23 2012 07:40 DoubleReed wrote:
Are people really just outright saying that stalkers and zealots are bad? Really? Well stalkers are pretty fucking terrible yes, zealots are good though (only with charge). What? It's more mobile than other ranged units in the early game. Blink shenanigans in the midgame. It's highly microable in all instances really. What's wrong with stalkers? it's expensive as shit, slower than roaches and marauders (creep and stim), and is weaker than both of em. Vikings on the fucking ground do more dmg AND shoot faster (and vikings are regarded as being weak as shit on ground). s So dont give me this highly mobile bullshit. Wow you must be blind or something, you do realize that stalkers attack ground AND air right? Something neither marauder or roaches can do. Early game stalkers can kite roaches all day, mid game they can blink away from both these units. They also have shield regen which is a huge plus and neithe roaches nor marauders have, there a reason they cost more. Oh, they also have 15 more HP than a roach and 35 more than a marauder... anything else? Oh yea and vikings get raped on the ground by stalkers, and just about every other unit in the game... troll elsewhere plz None of these things make them particularly good as a defensive unit in the early game. They're fine as a harassment unit, sure, and they can pick away at armies moving forward, but we're talking about the early game here. If you mess with FF or WG, the unit becomes too weak for what it does, and the Zealot becomes even more useless without FFs to ensure it actually gets near MM. so the truth comes out, u missed a ff and a 3 rax all in rush up your ramp and killed you. HAHA
What? I rarely lose to 3rax pushes, because I usually scout very well. If I do, however, and miss a FF, I see nothing particularly hilarious about that (nor do I see what it has to do with my post). Missing FFs against 3rax is basically a loss, because you don't have the unit composition to deal with the early stim and high numbers of MM.
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EPT
