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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 23 2012 04:58 Shiori wrote: Do you actually play? Pretty sure no Protoss players are macroing out of failed 7gate all-ins. I see that crap happen all day, every day. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:17 SupLilSon wrote: I see that crap happen all day, every day. Where? | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:17 SupLilSon wrote: I see that crap happen all day, every day. By definition, an all-in does not transition into anything. Your bias is showing. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:30 hzflank wrote: By definition, an all-in does not transition into anything. Your bias is showing. Lucky for Protoss that doesn't apply. Chronoboost/WG | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:48 SupLilSon wrote: Lucky for Protoss that doesn't apply. Chronoboost/WG Again, examples? | ||
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:48 SupLilSon wrote: Lucky for Protoss that doesn't apply. Chronoboost/WG Is this a balance discussion thread or a 'I can't win vs Protoss so imba me qq you pewpew stfu noob' - thread? | ||
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-TesteR-
Canada1165 Posts
Didnt you hear? All day every day. -_________- | ||
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:55 CyDe wrote: Guys, please stop. I really enjoy this thread, some great ideas here, but the flaming will get it closed. I hereby request you move it to PMs, and also fix your quotes :< No kidding, it started out people having ideas, and then other people coming in and saying they are stupid and don't know anything about the game, real productive | ||
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
On April 23 2012 06:00 teamhozac wrote: No kidding, it started out people having ideas, and then other people coming in and saying they are stupid and don't know anything about the game, real productive Are you still not done yet? It started with you having an idea - Fine It started with you NOT using the forgat given in the OP - Not Fine Afterwards, you were questioned - Fine You neglected all questions and proceeded to call about 33% of the population of Starcraft 'stupid/whiner' - Not Fine You still didn't answer any questions. - Not Fine And, by the way, making bold statements and funky idea's based off of nothing, and neglecting to answer any questions, is, in fact, stupid. So I guess that makes those other guys right. Do you seriously think that, when 10 people question you, the chances of those 10 people being wrong are higher than the chances of you being wrong? Silly internets | ||
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coriamon
244 Posts
On April 23 2012 03:01 avilo wrote: If people want warpgate to ever become balanced and add back in the dynamic of defender's advantage to Protoss in all three match-ups there is a very simple solution that blizzard can implement to Heart of the Swarm that will make it impossible to do random warp-gate all-ins across the entire map. And no, it's not really arguable that warp-in is balanced - it defies one of the principle concepts of wargames which is travel distance. To keep warp-in in the game to allow Protoss their unique race advantage but not make it overwhelming in lategame or too good with all-ins like it currently is Blizzard can do the following things. Blizzard can make it so Protoss is only allowed to warp-in units in proximity to their nexus's or the gateways themselves. They can add in a late-game research/upgrade that allows protoss players to build a pylon and pay a cost of minerals/small gas cost to turn that pylon into a "warp-in pylon." What this does, is it still allows protoss players to abuse warp-in defensively, but now in mid-game Protoss players cannot randomly 2 base warp-in all-in without walking reinforcements across the map like a GOOD RTS game. Of course, warpgate all-ins are still possible with use of the warp prism, which was the entire point of the warp prism in the first place, which is perfectly fine because then there is the investment of the robo + a warp prism, which inherently also makes protoss mass gate all-ins easier to scout. This also fixes PvP making it possible to play games that aren't mostly 1 base vs 1 base because now reinforcements have to cross the entire map to reach the opponent, giving that defender's advantage...back to the defender. Blizzard can fix warp-gate in a way like this and they know it is broken, but whether they "fix" it and add defender's advantage back into the game is up to them. Building a 100 mineral building allowing instant reinforcements is the key reason why PvP is such a trash match-up, PvT has problems lategame as well simply because of warping in chargelots, along with mid-game problems in terms of dice rolling gateway all-ins that have instant reinforcements and are very forgiving for the protoss player. PvZ warp-gate all-ins are also very easy to execute. So making it necessary to build a warp prism to do these all-ins, along with forcing protoss to walk reinforcements to battles...it just fixes the entire issue with warp-in. And then Blizzard can decide if they want to allow protoss to build a 100 mineral building to upgrade lategame to allow warp-ins across the map that defy every RTS principle. I completely disagree with your statement. Although Starcraft II was only my second RTS, I understand that games don't need to follow a "specific formula" and are otherwise not balanced. Also, I'd like to mention that I play random. The defenders advantage is an interesting thing that you bring up with Protoss. The ability to warp in units allows the Protoss player to circumvent the defenders advantage (as you stated before). Let us discuss what Protoss has to balance out this ability. First: Protoss units must be together to do a lot of damage, and early on this is even more important. Simply stated; I'll elaborate. Protoss units have high synergy with eachother, but they suck on their own; the stalkers must be supported by the zealots, or they die to low amount of units (their dps is low, and their survivability is low). Zealots must be supported by sentries or they cannot catch the marine marauder troops (even with charge, stimmed bio can run from zealots with no troubles. Pure sentries vs any unit is a bad exchange for the player with the sentries. Second: The proxy pylon must be well defended. If the proxy pylon is not well defended, your faster units will have to trouble stopping the warp-gate allin; they will merely pick off the pylon before it causes a problem. This also includes the warp prism; the very fragile flying warp prism. Third: Warpgate units can't deal with mass numbers. A chargelot Archon composition is the best composition that comes out of solely warp gates, and it is not good when fighting maxed, even when supplimented with high templars. While the AOE can be high, it is harder to control an ONLY warpgate unit army than pretty much any other army. Fourth: This is only because you mentioned PvZ gateway allins. Before HT and Archons, Protoss only has single target units in their army. Zerg can get these things called hydras or zerglings which have incredibly high dps and swarm in masses. They pretty much destroy any gateway allin. Just to rebuddle the obvious counter-arguement, getting a precautionary hydra den will not put you behind, and anyways it is easy to scout for these allins. Warpins are something that makes SCII different from other RTS games. It is something that makes this game unique and it shouldn't be taken away before considering all of the factors of the game. EDIT: getting rid of quote about protoss flamers. | ||
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On April 23 2012 06:20 coriamon wrote: I completely disagree with your statement. Although Starcraft II was only my second RTS, I understand that games don't need to follow a "specific formula" and are otherwise not balanced. Also, I'd like to mention that I play random. The defenders advantage is an interesting thing that you bring up with Protoss. The ability to warp in units allows the Protoss player to circumvent the defenders advantage (as you stated before). Let us discuss what Protoss has to balance out this ability. First: Protoss units must be together to do a lot of damage, and early on this is even more important. Simply stated; I'll elaborate. Protoss units have high synergy with eachother, but they suck on their own; the stalkers must be supported by the zealots, or they die to low amount of units (their dps is low, and their survivability is low). Zealots must be supported by sentries or they cannot catch the marine marauder troops (even with charge, stimmed bio can run from zealots with no troubles. Pure sentries vs any unit is a bad exchange for the player with the sentries. Second: The proxy pylon must be well defended. If the proxy pylon is not well defended, your faster units will have to trouble stopping the warp-gate allin; they will merely pick off the pylon before it causes a problem. This also includes the warp prism; the very fragile flying warp prism. Third: Warpgate units can't deal with mass numbers. A chargelot Archon composition is the best composition that comes out of solely warp gates, and it is not good when fighting maxed, even when supplimented with high templars. While the AOE can be high, it is harder to control an ONLY warpgate unit army than pretty much any other army. Fourth: This is only because you mentioned PvZ gateway allins. Before HT and Archons, Protoss only has single target units in their army. Zerg can get these things called hydras or zerglings which have incredibly high dps and swarm in masses. They pretty much destroy any gateway allin. Just to rebuddle the obvious counter-arguement, getting a precautionary hydra den will not put you behind, and anyways it is easy to scout for these allins. Warpins are something that makes SCII different from other RTS games. It is something that makes this game unique and it shouldn't be taken away before considering all of the factors of the game. EDIT: getting rid of quote about protoss flamers. Zealots and Stalkers were nerfed, and sentries added, to try to make warpgate balanced. If warpgate were nerfed in the ways he suggested (or any other good way), gateway units can be changed so they stop sucking, and sentries can be removed again (or at least FF). | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 23 2012 06:34 Demonhunter04 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 06:20 coriamon wrote: I completely disagree with your statement. Although Starcraft II was only my second RTS, I understand that games don't need to follow a "specific formula" and are otherwise not balanced. Also, I'd like to mention that I play random. The defenders advantage is an interesting thing that you bring up with Protoss. The ability to warp in units allows the Protoss player to circumvent the defenders advantage (as you stated before). Let us discuss what Protoss has to balance out this ability. First: Protoss units must be together to do a lot of damage, and early on this is even more important. Simply stated; I'll elaborate. Protoss units have high synergy with eachother, but they suck on their own; the stalkers must be supported by the zealots, or they die to low amount of units (their dps is low, and their survivability is low). Zealots must be supported by sentries or they cannot catch the marine marauder troops (even with charge, stimmed bio can run from zealots with no troubles. Pure sentries vs any unit is a bad exchange for the player with the sentries. Second: The proxy pylon must be well defended. If the proxy pylon is not well defended, your faster units will have to trouble stopping the warp-gate allin; they will merely pick off the pylon before it causes a problem. This also includes the warp prism; the very fragile flying warp prism. Third: Warpgate units can't deal with mass numbers. A chargelot Archon composition is the best composition that comes out of solely warp gates, and it is not good when fighting maxed, even when supplimented with high templars. While the AOE can be high, it is harder to control an ONLY warpgate unit army than pretty much any other army. Fourth: This is only because you mentioned PvZ gateway allins. Before HT and Archons, Protoss only has single target units in their army. Zerg can get these things called hydras or zerglings which have incredibly high dps and swarm in masses. They pretty much destroy any gateway allin. Just to rebuddle the obvious counter-arguement, getting a precautionary hydra den will not put you behind, and anyways it is easy to scout for these allins. Warpins are something that makes SCII different from other RTS games. It is something that makes this game unique and it shouldn't be taken away before considering all of the factors of the game. EDIT: getting rid of quote about protoss flamers. Zealots and Stalkers were nerfed, and sentries added, to try to make warpgate balanced. If warpgate were nerfed in the ways he suggested (or any other good way), gateway units can be changed so they stop sucking, and sentries can be removed again (or at least FF). Nobody has a problem with this. People are upset because hozac suggested that, in fact, Protoss would be fine with just a straight nerf to FF/the Sentry, and no corresponding buff to the other Gateway units. | ||
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PersonDudeGuy
Canada47 Posts
"'Glass Cannon' unit without the cannon. Supposedly useful as a harassment unit, however 100/100 seems expensive considering this unit will not even go 1v1 vs a stalker or 1v2 marines. Every unit that can attack a Mutalisk counters it. " Your words not mine. If saying that the mutalisk is countered by every unit that can hit it does not not constitute hyperbole and a closed-mind then I dont know what does. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On April 23 2012 06:51 PersonDudeGuy wrote: Hello BmFBrando it's Omnipotent. Have you actually read this post? Judging on a few of your posts on the Bnet general forums you seem to express a lot of hyperbole in commenting on how zerg's arsenal. A few choice excerpts seem to highlight this nicely: "'Glass Cannon' unit without the cannon. Supposedly useful as a harassment unit, however 100/100 seems expensive considering this unit will not even go 1v1 vs a stalker or 1v2 marines. Every unit that can attack a Mutalisk counters it. " Your words not mine. If saying that the mutalisk is countered by every unit that can hit it does not not constitute hyperbole and a closed-mind then I dont know what does. I wouldn't really say that's hyperbole. The Mutalisk is a flyer and it's also incredibly fast. You can't expect it to be more mobile than every other unit and be super effective at fighting as well. I mean the game really isn't about "counters" anyway. Starcraft is more interesting than that. Especially when you're dealing with units that are designed to exploit mobility. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 23 2012 07:40 DoubleReed wrote: Are people really just outright saying that stalkers and zealots are bad? Really? Yeah I never quite understood that thought process either | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On April 23 2012 07:40 DoubleReed wrote: Are people really just outright saying that stalkers and zealots are bad? Really? Well stalkers are pretty fucking terrible yes, zealots are good though (only with charge). On April 23 2012 05:48 SupLilSon wrote: Lucky for Protoss that doesn't apply. Chronoboost/WG sorry you must be thinking of mules my friend. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On April 23 2012 07:42 da_head wrote: Well stalkers are pretty fucking terrible yes, zealots are good though (only with charge). What? It's more mobile than other ranged units in the early game. Blink shenanigans in the midgame. It's highly microable in all instances really. What's wrong with stalkers? | ||
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Dauntless
Norway548 Posts
Saying Stalkers are great would also be quite silly, not because they are/aren't, but because it has to be put into context. Stalkers are terrible when you a-move them into a group of MM. Stalkers are terrible when they are up against Ling/Roach and you don't blink micro. While Stalkers are great when you are up against pure Roach and you have blink. And Stalkers are great when you blink into someones base because their units are out of positions. Stalkers are great vs Marines without stim. And even my examples have a lot of exceptions. Why do some people try to make everything so black or white? In my personal opinion, the Stalker is one of the units in the game which usefulness is determined by the skill of the player, which is the kind of unit I like. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 23 2012 07:52 DoubleReed wrote: What? It's more mobile than other ranged units in the early game. Blink shenanigans in the midgame. It's highly microable in all instances really. What's wrong with stalkers? Being mobile doesn't help you defend your base or engage in the early game. Stalkers actually never become strong fighters in TvP. Zealots pre-charge basically require Sentries to ever get in combat with anything, hence why people don't want FF removed. Compared to MM and Zergling/Roach, though, yeah, Zealots and Stalkers are inferior pre-Twilight, the saving grace being Warp. | ||
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