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On August 12 2011 17:21 havox_ wrote:
At least the press releases bascially say the same, so noone made up a story...
a) It's just a different view on things what a league should do for their stars (yes, the league is worthless without the players) etc. This is what happens when these different cultures and esport scenes start working together, nothing too dramatic imho.
b) The Koreans dont like the playing conditions, which is understandable - yet they knew about that before the start of the league.
I'm sure we will see less and less of such stupid problems in the future - especially when the Korean teams will finally manage to get some sponsors (or are bought by Western teams^^).
You misunderstand it. The biggest problem is that 3 months too long, not to mention that they have to get up early in the morning for each match.
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On August 12 2011 17:16 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im with the NASL on this one. It s a very nice opportunity that they let Koreans compete if they want to. They make it sound like it s NASLs duty to assure every Korean makes money on it. Why dont foreigners blame GOM for not giving them a couple 1000 dollars?
As for the deposit, i dont think there s anything wrong with that, i personally dont believe that NASL would hold that back, im not sure if this was said or i misunderstood the tarnslation isnt very clear.
1000 dollar is a lot, 2000 is more then what a player actually needs for the trip, AND there s a huge ass pricepool which they are favored to take. And beside, even if u dont win, u get a free fucking trip to the US, i realize it s not like going in Italy or Paris but still, an experience.
If they consider it s not worth it to compete in those conditions, that s ok, but this official withdrawal is really stupid.
Personally, if i m allowed to play in a Mongolian (just a random country, no specific reason) SC2 tournament, which i have good chances of winning and almost guaranteed to finish in a paid spot, but they ask that i play when they say i have to, and i will have to fly to Mongolia and they might not pay my full expences, only half or i have to negotiate in order for them to pay it full, well i d say thank you very much. If my team would come and say, hey we re not OK with you possibly winning several thousans of dollars and a free trip, so dont play, i d tell them to go fuck themselves.
Excuse my language There's no $2000, only $1000. The other $1000 is the money that will be deducted in the prize money that the player win, so it's like the player's money, not NASL. If you have the money to go by yourself, then yes, it sounds reasonable. But to the Korean players, they have to rely on the team/manager to pay for the expense, and the team doesn't pay for you alone, but for other players too. And you really underestimate the deposit money. Remember that ST team said they spend 2,000,000 won/month to feed the players? Well 2,000,000won ~ $1800. So for team such as OGS who has to put the money deposit for MC, Zenio, Nada, Top, Ensnare, I don't think they would be happy to let their rice money to tie up without knowing when they gonna get back.
from nasl statement
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend).
I might be misunderstanding it, but it makes it impossible this way for Koreans who go to the offline event to lose money on it.
As for the deposit, sorry, you did not convince me. I recognize it can be a problem, but a team has several options aside from saying fck off, nobody goes, like:
We re paying the deposits for one or two players, which can be decided based on the in house tournaments- rankings.
OR
We allow you to go if u want to, but you have to pay the deposit from your own pocket. If you dont think it s worth it to ˝risk˝ it, dont go.
And again, it s a deposit, if NASL doesnt pay it back, well ok, then people will be up in the arms against them, and for good reason.
I think it s a dick move from the teams to forbid their players to play if they want to, let s be realistic even if they dont get full coverage for their trip (which they kinda would) Koreans are 99% sure to take home the better part of the price pool. One or two players might end up in a negative with a couple of bucks, but for that they were allowed a foreign trip and a chance to promote themselves and their teams in an international event and gain fans, and again, most of them make several grands on it.
My opinion did not change, korean team managers are denying money from their players.
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EE for StarcraftⅡGallery! Maybe I can help you as you requested at gallery….
First NASL require deposit(250bucks) to join the tournament.
-> NASL demanded each participating players to pay 250$ for deposit during online tornament.
They told that they will pay back it but still players who join the tournament didn't get it. NASL also require more deposit($500) in the next season
->NASL told they will refund it after tornament, but players who participated in NASL didn't received their money yet. NASL also doubled the amount of deposit since Season 2.
Second there were no care about Korean players who join the NASL. Korean top player like Boxer, moon, mc, Nada but they should overcome the parallax and they had terrible condiction to play game and schedule was changed and it made things worse.
-> Lack of consideration for participants was also a problem. In NASL Season 1, many Top-class Korean players - SlayerS_BoxeR, foxmoon, oGsMC, oGsNada, etc. - participated. Due to the difference between time zone, they have to play under terrible condition, and frequntly changed schedule made the problem worse.
Also player disapointed NASL compare the TSL3 and their some lacks that made hard to play on the online
-> Some players didn't satisfied about NASL's tornament system - compared to TSL3 - and they suffered from lag since NASL is online tornament.
I'll back if I have some time later….
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On August 12 2011 17:29 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:16 canikizu wrote:On August 12 2011 17:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im with the NASL on this one. It s a very nice opportunity that they let Koreans compete if they want to. They make it sound like it s NASLs duty to assure every Korean makes money on it. Why dont foreigners blame GOM for not giving them a couple 1000 dollars?
As for the deposit, i dont think there s anything wrong with that, i personally dont believe that NASL would hold that back, im not sure if this was said or i misunderstood the tarnslation isnt very clear.
1000 dollar is a lot, 2000 is more then what a player actually needs for the trip, AND there s a huge ass pricepool which they are favored to take. And beside, even if u dont win, u get a free fucking trip to the US, i realize it s not like going in Italy or Paris but still, an experience.
If they consider it s not worth it to compete in those conditions, that s ok, but this official withdrawal is really stupid.
Personally, if i m allowed to play in a Mongolian (just a random country, no specific reason) SC2 tournament, which i have good chances of winning and almost guaranteed to finish in a paid spot, but they ask that i play when they say i have to, and i will have to fly to Mongolia and they might not pay my full expences, only half or i have to negotiate in order for them to pay it full, well i d say thank you very much. If my team would come and say, hey we re not OK with you possibly winning several thousans of dollars and a free trip, so dont play, i d tell them to go fuck themselves.
Excuse my language There's no $2000, only $1000. The other $1000 is the money that will be deducted in the prize money that the player win, so it's like the player's money, not NASL. If you have the money to go by yourself, then yes, it sounds reasonable. But to the Korean players, they have to rely on the team/manager to pay for the expense, and the team doesn't pay for you alone, but for other players too. And you really underestimate the deposit money. Remember that ST team said they spend 2,000,000 won/month to feed the players? Well 2,000,000won ~ $1800. So for team such as OGS who has to put the money deposit for MC, Zenio, Nada, Top, Ensnare, I don't think they would be happy to let their rice money to tie up without knowing when they gonna get back. from nasl statement We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). I might be misunderstanding it, but it makes it impossible this way for Koreans who go to the offline event to lose money on it. As for the deposit, sorry, you did not convince me. I recognize it can be a problem, but a team has several options aside from saying fck off, nobody goes, like: We re paying the deposits for one or two players, which can be decided based on the in house tournaments- rankings. OR We allow you to go if u want to, but you have to pay the deposit from your own pocket. If you dont think it s worth it to ˝risk˝ it, dont go. And again, it s a deposit, if NASL doesnt pay it back, well ok, then people will be up in the arms against them, and for good reason. I think it s a dick move from the teams to forbid their players to play if they want to, let s be realistic even if they dont get full coverage for their trip (which they kinda would) Koreans are 99% sure to take home the better part of the price pool. One or two players might end up in a negative with a couple of bucks, but for that they were allowed a foreign trip and a chance to promote themselves and their teams in an international event and gain fans, and again, most of them make several grands on it. My opinion did not change, korean team managers are denying money from their players.
I think the main point is that NASL made the money but none of that was distributed to players. After all the stuffs korean pros had to deal with.
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The one thing I dont understand about all this is why the Korean team's made such an effort to qualify. I understand the difficulties with cross server play for them and the time issues but when you sign up to qualify you are basically saying "I accept this". The expenses is more easy to get my head around because they obviously had the opinion that they could persuade NASL to sweeten the deal for them but needed players to qualify first. But to bring up the time of games and the cross server play in response to this set of events doesnt seem quite appropriate to me.
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Long story short; NASL treated Koreans badly in the first NASL season. Many Koreans had to stay up to the whee hours of the morning to play matches for 3 months straight whereas the matches could be easily better scheduled like the TSL3.
The Korean association spoke on behalf of all the Korean players that they wanted an improvement for all Koreans - they didn't just want the winner to benefit but the community as a whole.
NASL could not meet their demands.
Koreans will not be participating, which means the NASL is now similar to the IPL except with worse production value.
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I actually like that the Korean teams do not want to participate in the NASL. It's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. Fees like this encourage foreign players to do better. For foreign e-sports to grow, these players need to be able to support themselves just to be able to match the same practice regime the koreans have. Until that happens Foreigners will always be worse than koreans. Sure, you can say I dont want Koreans to play because they will win. And that is partially true, but I dont want Koreans to win right now, or there will always be a large skill gap.
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On August 12 2011 17:35 Phayze wrote:
I actually like that the Korean teams do not want to participate in the NASL. It's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. Fees like this encourage foreign players to do better. For foreign e-sports to grow, these players need to be able to support themselves just to be able to match the same practice regime the koreans have. Until that happens Foreigners will always be worse than koreans. Sure, you can say I dont want Koreans to play because they will win. And that is partially true, but I dont want Koreans to win right now, or there will always be a large skill gap.
How does having less skilled players in a league encourage foreigners to do better?
The opposite is surely more true.
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It's good to see that you can't buy tournament quality with money...
NASL should fix the conditions for the players first. How can they think it's ok for the players to play at 4AM over 3 months?
NASL Grand Finals' production was poor over all, they don't have that much prestige I think.
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On August 12 2011 17:34 Pwnographics wrote:
Long story short; NASL treated Koreans badly in the first NASL season. Many Koreans had to stay up to the whee hours of the morning to play matches for 3 months straight whereas the matches could be easily better scheduled like the TSL3.
The Korean association spoke on behalf of all the Korean players that they wanted an improvement for all Koreans - they didn't just want the winner to benefit but the community as a whole.
NASL could not meet their demands.
Koreans will not be participating, which means the NASL is now similar to the IPL except with worse production value.
And having to pay for HQ and VODs. Which is probably the main issue when comparing NASL to IPL, since NASL's production and quality of games probably wont be as good as MLG and GSL.
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On August 12 2011 17:35 Phayze wrote:
I actually like that the Korean teams do not want to participate in the NASL. It's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. Fees like this encourage foreign players to do better. For foreign e-sports to grow, these players need to be able to support themselves just to be able to match the same practice regime the koreans have. Until that happens Foreigners will always be worse than koreans. Sure, you can say I dont want Koreans to play because they will win. And that is partially true, but I dont want Koreans to win right now, or there will always be a large skill gap.
If it's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE why does it have Europeans, South Americans, and SEA playing in it?
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On August 12 2011 17:18 bearhug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:31 Adebisi wrote:On August 12 2011 16:25 EchoZ wrote:On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't? GOM was expecting Foreigners to come over and play in a $1500 qualification tournament that spanned a month. NASL is having Koreans come for a shot at $50,000 over 3 days. (after playing in 10 weeks of online play) Do you see how these two things are different? NASL is obviously also a start up, I think what NASL offered while probably not ideal for some of the smaller Korean teams, I don't think its right that SC2Con comes in and declares them all out :/. Feels like the equivalent of eSports protectionism lol. Either way TYVM for the translations, very interesting. $50,000 over 3 days? No No No. NASL lasts for 3 months. For 3 months, you have to get up at 4am a few time a week, and may end up earning nothing (fail to qualify for the finals, and you get $0) after nearly 3 months. Even if you enter the finals, there are 16 players competing for the $40000 ( and only one can get that amount of money); 90% of chance you will get $`1000 or $1500. 3 months, 95% of chance of getting only $1000 - 1500. Think about it, dude. In a word, the key here is 3 months.
Oh, be fair. It's one best of three a week, for 9 weeks before a three day, 16 man LAN tournament.
So a maximum of 27 to 33 games (including possibly the playoffs). Not ideal, but it's basically like going through the MLG bracket but spread over a longer period of time for much higher prize money.
It's not like theyre playing for three months solid.
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On August 12 2011 17:36 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:35 Phayze wrote:
I actually like that the Korean teams do not want to participate in the NASL. It's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. Fees like this encourage foreign players to do better. For foreign e-sports to grow, these players need to be able to support themselves just to be able to match the same practice regime the koreans have. Until that happens Foreigners will always be worse than koreans. Sure, you can say I dont want Koreans to play because they will win. And that is partially true, but I dont want Koreans to win right now, or there will always be a large skill gap. How does having less skilled players in a league encourage foreigners to do better? The opposite is surely more true.
because there s bigger money up for grabs, with the top koreans there you could aim for a lower place at best. This way the really best foreigners compete for a lot more, and the mid tier foreign pros can aim for a smaller prize, which previously was taken by top foreigner or lower tier korean.
If i was a competitor i d be really happy
In fact, i am happy as a viewer
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MURICA15980 Posts
On August 12 2011 17:26 W2 wrote:
This seems like an argument between team managers and NASL, the players just got caught in between, and suffer because of it.
From the looks of the negotiations, SC2 Conf does NOT support players rights. It represents more of the manager's interest. Which is natural because it consists of only one player, all the rest are coaches/managers.
If it were not for this council laying down the law, I am sure there would still be players willing to make the trip, and accept the $2000 stipend. However, instead of allowing each player to make their own decision, the team managers decided to band together and make the decision for everyone.
Normal person: Learns about a tournament, weighs costs and benefits, decides not to go.
Cunning person: Learns about a tournament, weights costs and benefits, decides not to go, then convinces everyone else not to go in the slight chance that it may come back to benefit him.
This is how collective bargaining works. Think of the NFL and NBA disputes between the players union and the owners recently
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On August 12 2011 17:35 Phayze wrote:
I actually like that the Korean teams do not want to participate in the NASL. It's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. Fees like this encourage foreign players to do better. For foreign e-sports to grow, these players need to be able to support themselves just to be able to match the same practice regime the koreans have. Until that happens Foreigners will always be worse than koreans. Sure, you can say I dont want Koreans to play because they will win. And that is partially true, but I dont want Koreans to win right now, or there will always be a large skill gap.
NORTH AMERICAN =/= FOREIGNER
Foreigner = EVERYONE not Korean, includes Taiwan and Europe
North American = U.S. and Canada
Don't cite the tournament's name if your going to use it to justify European and Taiwanese participation.
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On August 12 2011 17:18 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:03 snafoo wrote:On August 12 2011 16:42 Azzur wrote:I bring you a statement by Mr Chae, head of GOM, who is also part of the SC2Con: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225324Chae Jung Won, the head of GomTV manage team "Can't understand foreigner's rejection"
GSL Super Tournament begins in coming May 23rd with top 64 GSL point rankers.
Super tournament has made issues by making competition of both code A and code S players, but unfortunately many foreigners, except Chris 'Huk' Loranger and Jonathan 'Jinro' Walsh, has rejected invitations.
Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."
PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."
The prize of participating World Championship was about 3,000,000 Won. (about 2700 USD) But in Super Tournament, if you qualify RO32 you will be guaranteed to have 1,000,000 Won. (about 900 USD) Of course you can't be sure until you hear from players, the prize pool , the chance of winning the tournament, and the travel cost are the most probable reason to reject invitation.
In fact, Dmytro 'Dimaga' Filipchuk spoke during the interview after World Championship that "It is very difficult to stay in Korea for long term since I have a girl friend and family. There are many online tournaments in Europe. That is why playing in Europe is much better choice for me."
Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S."
About question of making barrier for players in code A to promote in code S through Up and Down match, he said "The ability of player is what they can make win in Up and Down match. If you lose your Up and Down match, then you can't advance to code S. But we made change so winner of code A can advance without Up and Down match."
Written by: Lee Si Woo (siwoo@playxp.com)
(C) PlayXP
The money that a player earns for even making to the ro32 of the ST is LESS than what the teams would get from qualifying for the NASL finals and Mr Chae "Can't understand foreigner's rejection". There are certainly valid reasons for non-NASL participation but to blame it on travel fees smacks of double standards. On the flip-side, I didn't appreciate NASL's hostile stance on the matter and their slow handling of money. Still, I believe NASL is going to struggle to survive without the koreans. SC2Con is a player/team related thing, I don't know why you're quoting something from a GOM employee who isn't actually part of SC2Con -_- Mr Chae is part of SC2Con. In NASL's official statement: Show nested quote +In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties].
According to NASL , Mr Chae and GSL is only the middleman and has nothing to do with this decision . He is just there probably because of the language barrier or due to his good relationship with both sides ( foreigners and koreans).
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ouch, the non-translated parts are pretty harsh
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The thing that I love about all of this, is Koreans were insulted about Foriegners not willing to go through unforvorable conditions (IE paying to fly to Korea, live in GOM house with no practice partners, spend a month sitting on their thumbs in a tournament with a prize pool not even worth their plane ticket...) using phrases like "Koreans have the pride to make sacrifices to come play at the biggest stage, to gain the most fame, to have the most success."
Yet now there is a tournament with the money and viewership greater than that of GOMs and they aren't willing to go despite being guaranteed to atleast make money on the venture should they qualify for the finals.
I thought the best Koreans would brave through it and take risks to be the best?
Hypocrisy at its best.
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On August 12 2011 17:50 stalife wrote:
ouch, the non-translated parts are pretty harsh
indeed. I'm not touching that one until someone else does lol
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Koreans just figured out the league is worthless if they can just end up in the final without playing through it.
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EPT
