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A whole lot of he said she said.
To me it still boils down to "this is too difficult for us, so we don't wanna do it no more", which is a fair concern. Online tournaments are very difficult, and we're just not in a place right now where the challenges here can be alleviated. The root of the problem is the same as the EG team thing & Liquid. Rock and a hard place.
Also i don't trust either party enough to take a side on the payment issue or any other issue for that matter. SC2Con definitely comes across as whiny here but i don't really care what they think at this point.
bleh
GL everyone -_-
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On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:
1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.
Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?
That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.
According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.
If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment.
There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format.
NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive.
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On August 13 2011 20:53 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 20:40 two.watup wrote:On August 13 2011 20:30 Chenz wrote:
I really don't understand why they can't let the Koreans play at reasonable times. A Korean player facing a US player? Play at 12:00 PM KST, which means the time is somewhere between 6:00 and 9:00 in the US. A Korean player facing a European player? Play at 9:00 PM KST, which means the time in Europe is about 12:00 PM.
Since the NASL isn't aired live, there really shouldn't be a problem accommodating things like this. Korean time is 13 hours ahead of Eastern US, and 16 hours ahead of pacific. NASL is casted and recorded Live, in studio. You're asking them to change their entire system, or stay until 8PM to start matches at a studio during the week. Imagine if your boss told you that you now start work at 8PM. Korean vs Euro doesn't look like as much of a problem unless they go to sleep incredibly early. That's NASL's problem. It's their terrible format that causes the scheduling problems. After watching s1, I really don't see the point in casting the matches 'live' anymore, when you're not broadcasting live anyhow. Just do it from replays and everyone wins. Players get to play at decent times, casters get to cast at decent times, and production will benefit from it (cast in sequence instead of spoiling match 2-3-4-5 in the first match of the night that for some reason was recorded last.). NASL being casted 'live' doesn't add anything, it's just stupid at this point.
I like it casted live. Replays are screwed up, get out of sync, and sometimes both players can't recover their replays.
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On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:
1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.
Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust? That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role. According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work..
In fairness, the problem wasn't the schedule, it was that Painuser didn't bother to TELL them he couldn't attend, leaving his opponents waiting, often at silly hours of the day, to play with someone who never intended to turn up.
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It's a real shame Korean players basically get caged by SC2Con and put in this traveling circus where SC2Con decides where and when they get to play.
I don't think PuMa is complaining about NASL's grand final costs.
When did we get into the mindset of entitlement to travel expenses, hotel expenses and food. Isn't this exactly the purpose of the TEAM, to fund the teams travel so they can get out and spread the name of their sponsors?
Does Dreamhack pay for everyone to fly in? Gamescon? IEM? WCG? It's not the tournament promoters job to fly all the talent in. Their teams should say, hey MVP can win IEM, lets send him, win the thing and get our team name out there. If a team doesn't want to participate in NASL that's fine, the schedule is insane and so is the lag. But let the teams an players decide. If some darkhorse on OGS wants to play, let him.
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On August 13 2011 23:52 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:
1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.
Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust? That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role. According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.. In fairness, the problem wasn't the schedule, it was that Painuser didn't bother to TELL them he couldn't attend, leaving his opponents waiting, often at silly hours of the day, to play with someone who never intended to turn up.
50 players, 1 bad seed. That sounds like an outlier, to me. I don't think they should base their policy on one guy with lack of communication. That's a bit silly.
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On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:
1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.
Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust? That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role. According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work. If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment. There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format. NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive.
Yeah NASL could rework things, in effect, start casting replays, but that has it's pros and cons aswell. It would be better for the players but the production team would have to deal with sync issues in addition to a raging community.
A reduction in prize money would not really work the way the prize distibution is set up. Someone like PU in S1 was never close to seeing any money, there would be nothing stopping a player who started out 0-4 or 0-5 to just stop "wasting" his time. These 0-5 players would have no reason(other than moral ones) to play the season through.
In the end though it's all up to the players. If they dislike the format, they are free to decline the invitation, but once they've accepted the spot and signed the contract they should make damn sure they turn up for their games. Or accept a fine if they prioritize other things over the league. But counting on players good-hearted nature and outstanding morality is naive, which season 1 proved.
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In the end, this is probably the best thing for the NASL. Every tournament doesn't have to have the very best players to be interesting. Several Euro tournaments have been fantastic without having a single Korean. As long as NASL learns from last season and continues to improve, it can be a great tournament.
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honestly, i think nasl needs to rework it's tournament format, and almost everything about it. (no saying what the koreans did was right). if boxer doesn't want to come back, then there's probably something that has to be fixed.
why such a big first prize? you're giving it to 1 person, who probably isn't putting it back into the sc2 scene. let's say first prize is 50k (i'm not sure, but probably somewhere around mid-high 5 figures). I'm pretty sure that everyone would still play in NASL if first prize was 30 grand. Rework the prize distribution too, so that people further down the placing gets more money. See that's around 10-20 thousand dollars they can spend on advertisement, good PRODUCTION, and subsidizing travel costs. The perfect definition of NASL season 1 was amateur. Everything about it seemed like it was done by some noob. They should spend more money (or make use of it) to make their production up to par with the likes of GSL, MLG...etc
Also grand finals tournament structure needs to be fixed SO badly. boxer comes to california, getting knocked out by MC in a best of 3. Well, now what? Such a waste of time for a lot of these players. Ret comes from the netherlands, only to play one best of 3 and then gets to sit idly for the next few days.
For the security deposit, 500 dollars per person is a lot for a team. If team PRIME wants 5 of their players to participate in the tournament, then they have to fork up 2500 dollars up front. Thats not chump change, and they dont get it back for 5 months. Why would their sponsors (a korean chicken restaurant) want to pay for it? It's not like it'll help sales in Korea, when they can spend money sponsoring them for the GSL.
In addition, let the koreans play at much better time. it's even uncessary for them to play at 2 am. Is the reason REALLY so that the casters can cast them live? Who the fuck cares? Just cast them off replays and make everyone happy. I honestly doubt that viewers will care, let alone notice. To us, it's not even live anyways.
Americans can play at 8 am, koreans play at 12 am.
Even better, Americans can play at 8 PM, and koreans play at 12 PM.
10 PM for Americans (sounds perfect) and 2 pm for koreans
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To me the deposit issue is a simple solution.
What I would do is instead of requiring a deposit, instead just make a "reward" system and go the other direction. For every BO3 a player attends on time, doesn't skip or miss, they get $20.
If a player attends every BO3, he'll get $180 at the end of the season. This means all players would walk away with something to show for their time. If a player misses his BO3, he forfeits his $20 and that $20 goes to the player he was suppose to play to compensate for getting up early/adjusting their schedule and having the person not show up.
It would cause a reduction in the prize pool to do that because you'd have to use that money, but then every player would win money for being a part of the league, you wouldn't need a deposit up front, and there would be the incentive to play your matches because you get something for your time. Play all your matches get a walk over or two and all the sudden you have $240 which can go toward hotel/travel costs.
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On August 13 2011 15:26 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 14:20 DystopiaX wrote:On August 13 2011 13:53 tdt wrote:
The koreans or those who represent them sound like a bunch of Prima donnas. I never heard any foreigners whining about this and they made way less money usually dropping out by RO16.
Sad. Have to support foreigner tournaments more from now on. Foreigners don't have to pay over a thousand dollars for plane tickets to California alone; their expenses are way lower and they have way more money in sponsorships, etc. to pay for those plane tickets. Many Korean teams are in a tough spot financially and have to pay susbstantially more to make the playoffs; the reason they're complaining and the foreign players aren't is cause their situations are completely different. White-Ra's ticket cost 1,500 round trip, and because of the duckload.com mess, he paid it out of pocket.
And there was not a peep from White-Ra and he still seems to be more than willing to return.
And honestly, like I said in the other thread, if Koreans are in that bad of a shape money wise, they should be participating in every major tournament they can get hands on, especially foreign ones. Foreign tournaments = foreign sponsors, so if Korea is lacking sponsors, get foreign ones!
It makes ZERO sense not to participate. Yes, they *may* still have some costs to cover, but with NASL stipends, the cost is so minor and the payback so great (prize money, exposure, potential sponsorship opportunities), that if you are a good manager and thinking long-term, you would see the benefits and jump right on it.
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On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:
That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.
According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.
Actually, bringing up PainUser just proves progamers can't be trusted. NASL repeatedly said if PainUSer had just told them a day in advance that he cant make it they would be more than willing to reschedule his match. He repeatedly failed showed up with zero warning, and even promised he would show up on time and was still late and only made it cause NASL caught him on Team Liquid and asked him why he's not at his scheduled match.
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If you don't like the format of a tournament, don't sign up for it. By accepting their invitations, every player agreed to the rules and format of the league. I assume Koreans can compute a time zone difference and know beforehand what times their matches end up at just like everyone else. If you don't like the prospect of waking up at 4am once a week to play a match, then don't do it. Tbh, it's not a big deal to do so, especially considering what you're playing for, but I understand if you don't want to do it.
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A lot of korean arguments are pretty stupid =\ I was never a fan of waking up at 4am to watch Brood War, but i adjusted my schedule so I could. I know playing the game is a little different than spectating but that's a pretty bad reason to withdraw from a league.
Looking at it from a whole, all these arguments can be replicated from the foreigner->Kor scene, but we don't complain because Korea has the luxury of people the place to go for E-Sports
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On August 14 2011 01:26 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:
That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.
According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.
Actually, bringing up PainUser just proves progamers can't be trusted. NASL repeatedly said if PainUSer had just told them a day in advance that he cant make it they would be more than willing to reschedule his match. He repeatedly failed showed up with zero warning, and even promised he would show up on time and was still late and only made it cause NASL caught him on Team Liquid and asked him why he's not at his scheduled match.
The NASL schedule is such that games are played in a 4 hour window. The start time of each match is decided beforehand and players are emailed exactly what it is before the match starts. I.E. players will know that their match will start at 12:15 pm EST, so they can know when to take their lunch break, etc.
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On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:
1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.
Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust? That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role. According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work. If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment. There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format. NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive.
the whole problem appears to stem from their need to cast live. i dont think anyone with their head on straight minds replays and using the same logic of its ok to cast live then stream the recording, its completely ok to cast from the replays too.
nasl dug their own ditch on the schedule problems but thats not really relevent. everyone knew what they were getting into when they signed up, it wasnt a secret.
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On August 14 2011 01:48 turdburgler wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:
1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.
Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust? That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role. According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work. If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment. There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format. NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive. the whole problem appears to stem from their need to cast live. i dont think anyone with their head on straight minds replays and using the same logic of its ok to cast live then stream the recording, its completely ok to cast from the replays too. nasl dug their own ditch on the schedule problems but thats not really relevent. everyone knew what they were getting into when they signed up, it wasnt a secret.
Casting from replays opens up to the casters getting out of synch, like we saw with the EG Master's Cup this week with Painuser getting out of synch with DJ Wheat and ultimately having to switch computers to continue the cast.
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Koreans asking for too much this time around. They already have the sweet end of the deal.
Code A winnings versus NASL? Yeah thats a no brainer.
Everyone should know ESPORTS dollars take most of a year to process.
I am glad NASL put its foot down, good on you.
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I'm quite curious as to why this needed action from SC2Con. I mean, Dreamhack doesn't pay a penny, neither does Assembly, but you don't see SC2Con keeping their players from entering those tournaments. In what way is NASL different? Sure the format differs but if a team can afford it then great, if they can't, too bad. I don't see why SC2Con had to step in and prohibit all their teams and players from participating. Moon for an example would have no issues with 'just' a $2000 travel stipend.
So why NASL and not Dreamhack?
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Plus casting off replays really puts it on the players to contact each other and organize their own match times too, if you are casting off replays to help avoid the walk-over/time issues. So that is a pain for players as well to work through language issues etc. to figure out times for 2 months worth of BO3.
I'd think for the players it would be much easier to know, "for the next 2 months every Tuesday I have to be in this channel at this time and will take up 2 hours." That is to me consistent. These are pro-gamers, i don't see how it is unreasonable to manage your schedule based around that idea of doing your job basically.
I have a job, and my schedule requires me to wake up at 4 and 5AM at times too. Do I like it? No. But it isn't like I have a choice. I have a friend who has to close the store he works at every other Saturday and is there till like 3 or 4AM on a Saturday night. Does he like that? No. But it is his job.
To me, regardless of NASL production, or the time you have to wake up, or the deposit issues, there are like 4-5 opportunities to win this kind of money in SC2 at the moment. To pass up on that chance because of issues that you could suck up and work around to me seems crazy.
I guess I just see it as basically(assuming I was a top pro gamer that could realistically win this thing) :
Scrounge up $500 bucks that will be returned.
Wake up once a week at a weird time to play 1 BO3 for 9 weeks.
Take a trip to California where most of my expenses will be covered, with some slight out of pocket money needed.
To get a shot at a slice of 100k. I mean when you put that down on paper, does it really seem that crazy? I mean... I'd like that better than trying to jump through the hoops that are Code B/A/S GSL tournaments where you could get knocked down from Code S with one bad draw and maybe never get back in again.
I know these issues exist w/ NASL, I acknowledge the Korean point of view no doubt, it is certainly valid. But the players have to be kicking themselves knowing that this is one of the most attainable paydays out there for those that were going to be involved with it. I just don't see how a Korean who feels he is a top gamer in the world passes at a shot at this money....
And as one last side note, seeing how all these Korean teams are hurting for cash, why not make an agreement going into the NASL that perhaps all the winnings the Koreans make that are in this SC2Con get pooled and divided up amongst the teams? Maybe 50% divided up amongst all the Koreans, and 50% divided up amongst the teams. You'd assume they are going to walk away with a nice chunk of that 100k, that could be used to get some cash flow into each team if they are hurting as bad as they seem to be. Just a thought there...They already united and decided not to attend, don't see why they couldn't unite and just split the winnings.
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EPT
