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TiG Opinion Article on NASL Situation

Forum Index > SC2 General
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jjw
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)6 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 23:19:06
August 12 2011 07:04 GMT
#1
Mod Note: This is an opinion article on the NASL situation by Thisisgame. However, the writer of this article is a member on the advisory board of s2con.

Update: Added more complete translation to OP


NASL.tv's reply:

+ Show Spoiler +
Would like to respond to some of these points. While not this is not an official statement of SC2Con, it does bring up serious points of contention.

They told that they will pay back it but still players who join the tournament didn't get it. NASL also require more deposit($500) in the next season

1) Our contract states that all prizes//stipend//deposit will be paid and refunded within 60 days of the tournament finish. This contract was signed by every Korean team manager and player that played in Season 1. Further, we have already paid back all the security deposits of Korean teams for Season 1, in addition to the deposits of players who were slated not to return for Season 2.

If anyone doubts this claim -- feel free to contact Artosis, Grubby, Liquid (who paid for the oGs Season 1 deposit), HuK (who paid for Boxer's deposit), Rainbow (who paid his own deposit), and WeMadeFox.

As of yesterday, all these payments were completed, which is still 1 month within our target deadline to send all payments.

Second there were no care about Korean players who join the NASL. Korean top player like Boxer, moon, mc, Nada but they should overcome the parallax and they had terrible condiction to play game and schedule was changed and it made things worse.

2) The Korean players were made very well aware of our schedule before Season 1. Players were expected to wake up once per week to play a match at 4-8am. The schedule for Season 2 was even slightly adjusted to make it more bearable for Korean players, with games starting at 2am KST (which we gathered from talking to some Korean players, was a more reasonable time).

The Grand Finall was even worse. Players had to pay all of the bill for transportation, lodging, and meal. NASL gave $500 to each player who join the Grand Final but it just half of tickets and lodging. Some players can slove it to deduction in their prize. Then they can get the ticket and lodging

3) This is completely false. The Korean teams expressed difficulty in attending the Grand Finals, so we offered to buy their tickets for them, and reserve their hotels for them, and arrange shuttle service for them. We spent $1,192 for each of the tickets we bought for Korean players (MC, Zenio, Squirtle, PuMa). Each hotel room cost $350, and the shuttle service to and from LAX airport averaged out to approximately $80 per players. We wrote, and had the letter translated into Korean, that we would be happy to do this for them to solve the problem of attending, and then deduct this from their travel stipends and prize. The four players who we bought tickets for expressly agreed to this. Moon, Boxer, July, and aLive made separate travel arrangements.

Even they get huge benifits to their online bordcasting but they didn't treated well who play in the NASL.

4) Benefit is always two ways. Hosting a league such as this is a mutually beneficial relationship. The league benefits by having the players play, and the players benefit by the amount of exposure playing gives them. Leagues such as the NASL, GSL, and MLG are the avenues in which players can compete and make their names known to the world.

We absolutely love interacting with the Korean players and having them play in our league. We put serious strains on our budget, not only in Season 1, but moving forward in Season 2, to try to accommodate the Koreans so that they can play in our league. We hate to see them withdrawing and this is the last thing we want.

So Korean teams and player require to NASL to remove the deposit and solve the problem about airplane tickets and lodging but they didn't accecpted it

5) We have offered $2,000 per player to attend the finals. We've offered a deal already where we would pay for flights, hotel, and travel (with those fees deducted from earning).


On August 13 2011 01:48 BaekHo wrote:
This is NOT an OFFICIAL statement.

구체적인 내용을 통해 한국 선수들이 NASL에 불참하게 된 이유를 설명한다. 먼저 NASL은 대회 출전을 위한 보증금 지급을 요구했다. NASL은 지난 4월 중순부터 6월 중순까지 2개월 동안 온라인으로 조별 풀리그를 진행하면서 출전 선수들에게 1인당 250달러(한화 약 27만원)를 받았다.

They (GOM and SC2Con) explained why Koreans do NOT participate in NASL. First of all, NASL asked security Deposit. Starting mid April to mid May, (about 2 month) during online premid leagues, they gathered about 250$ per each players.

보증금은 대회가 진행된 이후 돌려줄 것이라고 했지만 대회에 출전한 선수들은 아직까지도 보증금을 돌려받지 못하고 있는 상태다. NASL은 여기에서 그치지 않고 시즌2부터는 보증금을 1인당 500달러(한화 약 54만)로 2배나 올렸다.

Although NASL.tv said that they will pay security deposit money back, players didn't get their money back. Also, NASL.tv raised security deposit money twice of last season to 500$, compare to last season (250$)


초창기 <스타크래프트>가 출시됐을 때 PC방에서 진행하던 이벤트 대회도 출전 선수들에게 돈을 받지는 않았다. 하물며 프로 선수가 출전하는 대회가 선수들에게 보증금을 요구한다는 것 자체가 상식적으로 이해가 되지 않는 행태다.

When Starcraft first came out (not sure if hes referring to SC1 or SCll), even small LAN events done in internet cafe, they didnt have entry fee (I believe its SCl), yet huge league where all progamers attending asking for security deposit is abusive.

두 번째 NASL 출전 선수에 대한 배려다. 한국 선수들은 NASL 시즌1에 임요환(슬레이어스), 장재호(폭스), 장민철, 이윤열(이상 oGs) 등 정상급 선수가 10명이나 출전했다. 하지만 이들이 온라인 방송을 진행하는 현지 시간에 맞춰 경기를 치르느라 새벽같이 일어나 경기에 임했다. 이로 인해 선수들은 최악의 컨디션에서 경기를 치러야 했고, 이마저도 정해진 일정이 변경되면서 제대로 치러지지 않는 경우까지 발생했다.

Secondly, players having hard time playing in NASL. In the first NASL Season, top Korean players like Boxer, moon, nada played in NASL. However, because of live cast, players had to wake about 4am every time there was tournament match - which caused players to be in low concentration and tiredness. Also, there were some case where schedule changed, and they did not play.


NASL에 출전했던 선수들은 비슷한 시기에 경기를 진행한 TSL3과 비교해 NASL의 경기 진행 방식에 대해 불만을 표하기도 했다. 게다가 온라인 대회 진행인 관계로 매 경기 렉(지연 현상)도 심했다.

Players who played in NASL thought that way that TSL3 scheduled matches were supportive than NASL did. Since it was Online tournament, every games had delays. (high latency)


미국 현지에서 진행된 그랜드파이널의 경우는 더욱 엉망이었다. 선수들은 미국으로 이동하는 비행기와 숙박, 식사 등 모든 비용을 본인이 직접 해결해야 했다. NASL 측은 그랜드파이널에 출전하는 선수들을 위해 1인당 500달러씩 제공하겠다고 이야기했지만 출전에 필요한 경비의 절반에도 미치지 못한다. 이에 일부 선수들은 자신의 대회 상금에서 공제하기로 약속하고 나서야 비행기표와 숙소를 해결할 수 있었다.

Grandfinal in US was even more disturbing. Players had to play from their own expenses in order to go States (Flight ticket, Hotel, Food). NASL.tv said that for each player, who is going to States, they will support with 500$ US, but it was not even half amount of travel expenses. So some players promised to pay their expenses from money that they will win after the tournament, get money from NASL; then, had barely enough money for flight ticket and hotel.


또한, NASL은 LA공항에 도착한 한국 선수들이 대회가 열리는 현장으로 이동하는 과정에서 80달러의 픽업 비용을 받은 것으로 확인됐다.

Also we checked NASL get $80 for pickup fees to drive LA airport through the convention center.


그 들은 NASL 온라인 방송을 유료(저화질은 무료)로 서비스하면서 막대한 이익을 얻었음에도 자신들의 수익을 위해 최고의 콘텐츠를 제공한 선수들은 홀대한 셈이다.

Even though NASL made a lot of profits throughout HQ (LQ was free), for their own profits, they were neglected about players.


이 에 한국의 게임단과 선수들은 NASL 측에 보증금을 없앨 것과 그랜드파이널 참가를 위한 항공, 숙박, 체제 비용의 제공을 요구했지만 거절당했다.

Thus, Korean pro gaming teams and players asked NASL to reduce or delete security deposit money and support travel expenses, but got refused.


NASL은 공지를 통해 1인당 그랜드파이널 출전 비용으로 이전의 2배인 1천 달러(한화 약 108만원)를 지급하겠다고 했으나 이는 미국행 비행기표를 구입하기도 부족한 금액이다. 또한, 여행 비용 1천 달러를 포함해 2천 달러(한화 약 216만원)를 분배하겠다고 최종적으로 제안했지만 확인 결과 이는 대회의 우승 상금을 삭감하고 지급하기로 한 것으로, 결국 선수들에게 지급해야 할 금액을 조정해서 위기를 면하기 위한 ‘조삼모사’에 불과했다.

NASL.tv said (throughout bulletin) for each players who will be playing in GrandFinal, they will going to support with 1000$ US, compare to Season 1 of 500$, but 1000$ is not even enough for flight ticket to United States. Also, they said, including 1000$ travel expenses, they will pay extra 2000$, but apparently NASL.tv decide to reduce price pool in order to give extra travel expenses. (Eventually providing players about same amount of money)


최근 한국 선수들이 잇따라 해외 팀으로 이적하고 있고 다수의 해외 대회에 출전하고 있다. 하지만 이에 대한 보다 신중한 접근이 필요하다. NASL의 경우와 마찬가지로 한국 선수들은 최상의 콘텐츠를 공급할 수 있는 좋은 돈벌이 수단이다. 그러나 그들은 한국 선수들을 자신들의 돈벌이에 이용하면서 정당한 대가를 지불하지도 않는다.

Nowadays, many Korean players decide to step outside of Korea and join foreign team, and play in foreign tournament. However, we need to be careful about this. Tournament like NASL show the case that Korean players can show high level of game play, attracting lots of people; However, they only use Korean players in order to make money for their own and not being supportive for players.

곰 TV는 한국 선수들의 해외 진출과 해외 우수 선수들의 한국 활동을 위해 다양한 연계 프로그램을 실시하고 있다. MLG 콜럼버스, MLG 애너하임에 이어 MLG 롤리를 진행하는 MLG가 대표적이며 8월 중순에는 IEM도 열릴 예정이다.

GomTV is proposing many new ideas in order to keep foreign team, players active in Korea and help Korean players to play outside of Korea. MLG columbus, MLG anaheim, MLG event is one of the example of GomTV stepping outside of Korea, and there will be IEM tournament at mid-august.

선 수들에게 해외 대회 출전은 보다 넓은 세상을 경험하고 해외의 우수한 선수들과 승부를 겨룰 수 있는 좋은 기회임에 틀림없다. 그렇지만 본인이 프로라는 사실을 잊지 말고 아마추어 같은 대회는 과감하게 출전을 포기하는 결단이 필요하다.

Of course, its very good opportunities for players to play in foreign tournament which will give them chances to play against good foreign players and experience foreign community, but it is important to not forget that they are 'pro' gamers and not participate in amateur tournament. (NOTE: Although this sound offensive, i believe he meant amateur tournament as NOT skill wise, he doesn't seem to think foreign players are scrubs, he thinks that amateur tournament are those who doesn't provide player's environment very well)

NASL 은 올 초 시즌1 10만 달러(한화 약 1억 800만원), 시즌2 10만 달러, 시즌3 20만 달러(한화 약 2억 1천 600만원) 등 총 상금 40만 달러(한화 약 4억 3천 200만원)를 걸고 세계 최상위 클래스의 <스타크래프트 2> 선수들을 초청해 대회를 만들겠다고 밝혔다. 하지만 지금까지 보여준 그들의 행태는 세계 최고의 선수들을 활용해 ‘재주는 선수들이 부리고 돈은 NASL이 벌겠다’는 잔꾀에 지나지 않다.

NASL said in beginning of the year that first season will 100,000$, second season 100,000$, and third season for 200,000$, total of 400,000$ and have all top class players to play in Tournament. However, from what they have shown, all their desire is 'players play game, and NASL make more money'.

마지막으로 NASL은 지금이라도 대회 운영을 포기하던지, 세계 최고의 선수들이 출전하는 위상에 걸맞은 모습과 대회 운영을 보여주길 바란다.

Finally I hope (reporter) NASL stop Tournaments, or supports players better, and be better in tournament operating.

한편, NASL 시즌1에 출전한 선수들의 보증금은 아직까지 지급되지 않았고, 상금 역시 지급되지 않았다. 또한, 한국 게임단은 최근 FXOpen과 병합한 FXOKorea를 제외하고 모든 팀과 선수들이 NASL 시즌2에 출전하지 않기로 결정했다.

On the other hand, players who played in NASL Season 1 didnt get their security deposit and pay check (from winning tournament). Also, SC2Con decide that except FXOKorea who emerged with FXOpen, all teams and players decide not to participate in Season ll of NASL . (This paragraph is Fact, not opinion, I believe.)




+ Show Spoiler [OP\'s translation] +
구체적인 내용을 통해 한국 선수들이 NASL에 불참하게 된 이유를 설명한다. 먼저 NASL은 대회 출전을 위한 보증금 지급을 요구했다. NASL은 지난 4월 중순부터 6월 중순까지 2개월 동안 온라인으로 조별 풀리그를 진행하면서 출전 선수들에게 1인당 250달러(한화 약 27만원)를 받았다.

Here is the reason why Korean players will not join the NASL. First NASL require deposit(250bucks) to join the tournament.


보증금은 대회가 진행된 이후 돌려줄 것이라고 했지만 대회에 출전한 선수들은 아직까지도 보증금을 돌려받지 못하고 있는 상태다. NASL은 여기에서 그치지 않고 시즌2부터는 보증금을 1인당 500달러(한화 약 54만)로 2배나 올렸다.

They told that they will pay back it but still players who join the tournament didn't get it. NASL also require more deposit($500) in the next season



초창기 <스타크래프트>가 출시됐을 때 PC방에서 진행하던 이벤트 대회도 출전 선수들에게 돈을 받지는 않았다. 하물며 프로 선수가 출전하는 대회가 선수들에게 보증금을 요구한다는 것 자체가 상식적으로 이해가 되지 않는 행태다.

There were some amateur tournament in Korea before the e-sport grew big. But they didn't require any deposit. However NASL is contest that pro players joining but they can't understand how they could do that


두 번째 NASL 출전 선수에 대한 배려다. 한국 선수들은 NASL 시즌1에 임요환(슬레이어스), 장재호(폭스), 장민철, 이윤열(이상 oGs) 등 정상급 선수가 10명이나 출전했다. 하지만 이들이 온라인 방송을 진행하는 현지 시간에 맞춰 경기를 치르느라 새벽같이 일어나 경기에 임했다. 이로 인해 선수들은 최악의 컨디션에서 경기를 치러야 했고, 이마저도 정해진 일정이 변경되면서 제대로 치러지지 않는 경우까지 발생했다.

Second there were no care about Korean players who join the NASL. Korean top player like Boxer, moon, mc, Nada but they should overcome the parallax and they had terrible condiction to play game and schedule was changed and it made things worse.


NASL에 출전했던 선수들은 비슷한 시기에 경기를 진행한 TSL3과 비교해 NASL의 경기 진행 방식에 대해 불만을 표하기도 했다. 게다가 온라인 대회 진행인 관계로 매 경기 렉(지연 현상)도 심했다.

Also player disapointed NASL compare the TSL3 and their some lacks that made hard to play on the online


미국 현지에서 진행된 그랜드파이널의 경우는 더욱 엉망이었다. 선수들은 미국으로 이동하는 비행기와 숙박, 식사 등 모든 비용을 본인이 직접 해결해야 했다. NASL 측은 그랜드파이널에 출전하는 선수들을 위해 1인당 500달러씩 제공하겠다고 이야기했지만 출전에 필요한 경비의 절반에도 미치지 못한다. 이에 일부 선수들은 자신의 대회 상금에서 공제하기로 약속하고 나서야 비행기표와 숙소를 해결할 수 있었다.

The Grand Finall was even worse. Players had to pay all of the bill for transportation, lodging, and meal. NASL gave $500 to each player who join the Grand Final but it just half of tickets and lodging. Some players can slove it to deduction in their prize. Then they can get the ticket and lodging


또한, NASL은 LA공항에 도착한 한국 선수들이 대회가 열리는 현장으로 이동하는 과정에서 80달러의 픽업 비용을 받은 것으로 확인됐다.

Also we checked NASL get $80 for pickup fees to drive LA airport through the convention center.


그들은 NASL 온라인 방송을 유료(저화질은 무료)로 서비스하면서 막대한 이익을 얻었음에도 자신들의 수익을 위해 최고의 콘텐츠를 제공한 선수들은 홀대한 셈이다.

Even they get huge benifits to their online bordcasting but they didn't treated well who play in the NASL.


이에 한국의 게임단과 선수들은 NASL 측에 보증금을 없앨 것과 그랜드파이널 참가를 위한 항공, 숙박, 체제 비용의 제공을 요구했지만 거절당했다.

So Korean teams and player require to NASL to remove the deposit and solve the problem about airplane tickets and lodging but they didn't accecpted it


NASL은 공지를 통해 1인당 그랜드파이널 출전 비용으로 이전의 2배인 1천 달러(한화 약 108만원)를 지급하겠다고 했으나 이는 미국행 비행기표를 구입하기도 부족한 금액이다. 또한, 여행 비용 1천 달러를 포함해 2천 달러(한화 약 216만원)를 분배하겠다고 최종적으로 제안했지만 확인 결과 이는 대회의 우승 상금을 삭감하고 지급하기로 한 것으로, 결국 선수들에게 지급해야 할 금액을 조정해서 위기를 면하기 위한 ‘조삼모사’에 불과했다.

They told us they will give $1000 who join the Grand Final but it's not enough to get ticket and they finally said they will give $2000 but they also they remove $1000 into the prize.



It's too~~~~ hard...... I'm sorry for my poor english but I think other article is not that important and it's about MLG and GSL's relationship so it's not bad things but if you still wonder then you can use google translater.
Here is opinion of Korean teams and Korean players about this situation. I'm not usually online in TL so I can't translate anymore.
I'm so said that you guys can't hear some news about Korean e sport (ex:Did you remember the complaint of Slayers Jessica I want to talk about it but I have no time to talk about and pls don't blieve everything that people said.)


최근 한국 선수들이 잇따라 해외 팀으로 이적하고 있고 다수의 해외 대회에 출전하고 있다. 하지만 이에 대한 보다 신중한 접근이 필요하다. NASL의 경우와 마찬가지로 한국 선수들은 최상의 콘텐츠를 공급할 수 있는 좋은 돈벌이 수단이다. 그러나 그들은 한국 선수들을 자신들의 돈벌이에 이용하면서 정당한 대가를 지불하지도 않는다.



곰TV는 한국 선수들의 해외 진출과 해외 우수 선수들의 한국 활동을 위해 다양한 연계 프로그램을 실시하고 있다. MLG 콜럼버스, MLG 애너하임에 이어 MLG 롤리를 진행하는 MLG가 대표적이며 8월 중순에는 IEM도 열릴 예정이다.



선수들에게 해외 대회 출전은 보다 넓은 세상을 경험하고 해외의 우수한 선수들과 승부를 겨룰 수 있는 좋은 기회임에 틀림없다. 그렇지만 본인이 프로라는 사실을 잊지 말고 아마추어 같은 대회는 과감하게 출전을 포기하는 결단이 필요하다.



NASL은 올 초 시즌1 10만 달러(한화 약 1억 800만원), 시즌2 10만 달러, 시즌3 20만 달러(한화 약 2억 1천 600만원) 등 총 상금 40만 달러(한화 약 4억 3천 200만원)를 걸고 세계 최상위 클래스의 <스타크래프트 2> 선수들을 초청해 대회를 만들겠다고 밝혔다. 하지만 지금까지 보여준 그들의 행태는 세계 최고의 선수들을 활용해 ‘재주는 선수들이 부리고 돈은 NASL이 벌겠다’는 잔꾀에 지나지 않다.



마지막으로 NASL은 지금이라도 대회 운영을 포기하던지, 세계 최고의 선수들이 출전하는 위상에 걸맞은 모습과 대회 운영을 보여주길 바란다.



한편, NASL 시즌1에 출전한 선수들의 보증금은 아직까지 지급되지 않았고, 상금 역시 지급되지 않았다. 또한, 한국 게임단은 최근 FXOpen과 병합한 FXOKorea를 제외하고 모든 팀과 선수들이 NASL 시즌2에 출전하지 않기로 결정했다.




I'm sorry about my title to SC2Korean team. It actually SC2Team organazation's opinion. So It may not contain all team's opinion(ex Slayers, FXO) but actually it's close to opinion of SC2Teams
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 07:07:23
August 12 2011 07:07 GMT
#2
Seems like the Korean side collaborates with what the NASL release said (abate with a different attitude). It's unfortunate that the scene has not become sufficiently big that travel cease to be an issue.

Shows how fragile StarCraft 2 remains and how much more it has to grow in order to become a proper competitive sport.
Thank God and gunrun.
SenorChang
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia4729 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 07:13:01
August 12 2011 07:08 GMT
#3
On August 12 2011 16:07 Primadog wrote:
Seems like the Korean side collaborates with what the NASL release said (abate with a different attitude). It's unfortunate that the scene has not become sufficiently big that travel cease to be an issue.

Shows how fragile StarCraft 2 remains and how much more it has to grow in order to become a proper competitive sport.

Need an airline to sponsor Sc2!
yee!

Thanks for translating

I can fully understand where the koreans come from withdrawing for NASL. The conditions for them are so poor, with having to get up at 4am to play their games, over the course of 3 months - then fly across the globe to lose 1 set and be out of it (felt bad for Ret too :< - first seed and out so fast with no chance at redemption) - and with the stipend deal they will essentially have earned nothing for it.

Really wish NASL would re-do their tournament structure.

ლ(╹◡╹ლ)
HeeroFX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2704 Posts
August 12 2011 07:08 GMT
#4
Seems like they justified pulling out very well in this statement. It makes sense imo.
JoeSchmoe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2058 Posts
August 12 2011 07:12 GMT
#5
On August 12 2011 16:07 Primadog wrote:
Seems like the Korean side collaborates with what the NASL release said (abate with a different attitude). It's unfortunate that the scene has not become sufficiently big that travel cease to be an issue.

Shows how fragile StarCraft 2 remains and how much more it has to grow in order to become a proper competitive sport.


there is some inconsistency. the koreans say that NASL hasn't paid the prize/security deposit. NASL said it's in their 60 day policy. if the koreans knew this, it seems unreasonable to bring this up in the argument. I wonder if there was some miscommunication? Were the koreans aware of the NASL policies from the beginning?
oniman999
Profile Joined May 2011
United States169 Posts
August 12 2011 07:13 GMT
#6
If they don't want to come steal 50 grand, it's their fault :/ I see their side of it though, sponsors in Korea are hard to come by, and that makes traveling hard. I think this really hurts NASL, it hurts Koreans, and it hurts the viewers. I think this goes to show how hard it is to start and maintain a league, and maybe we'll see the NA scene become more like Korea and have one major tournament rather than several smaller ones. If I had to take my guess, MLG would be that league! I don't mean to be a doomsayer though, and I do hope NASL does well and I will continue to watch because the games last season were awesome!
Carush
Profile Joined June 2011
United States356 Posts
August 12 2011 07:18 GMT
#7
meh i don't see why this is nasl's fault

international flights are absurdly expensive and it just kinda sucks that way :/
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 07:23:48
August 12 2011 07:18 GMT
#8
The damage it'll cause to the viewers and the world SC2 scene are my biggest concern of this whole mess, oniman999. It'll be costly for NASL to replace the Koreans - since NASL.TV revealed that season 2 has begun production, not only will they need to find new players, they'll have to replace art assets, graphics, promotionals, scheduling. It's simply a huge mess on their hands.

What is worse though, is if SC2Con maintain this stance for all international tournaments - that it's up to the tournaments, not the teams, to foot the entire traveling expense for all korean invitees - what it'll do to the entire SC2 scene.

That's simply not how the economy of StarCraft works, even back in BW. It's a strange and unfortunate stance to take. I hope I am just extrapolatiing, but that'll definitely re-fracture the korean and foreigner scene after the years the community spent meshing them together.
Thank God and gunrun.
HeeroFX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2704 Posts
August 12 2011 07:19 GMT
#9
On August 12 2011 16:13 oniman999 wrote:
If they don't want to come steal 50 grand, it's their fault :/ I see their side of it though, sponsors in Korea are hard to come by, and that makes traveling hard. I think this really hurts NASL, it hurts Koreans, and it hurts the viewers. I think this goes to show how hard it is to start and maintain a league, and maybe we'll see the NA scene become more like Korea and have one major tournament rather than several smaller ones. If I had to take my guess, MLG would be that league! I don't mean to be a doomsayer though, and I do hope NASL does well and I will continue to watch because the games last season were awesome!





Idk if it hurts the koreans, because right now GSL Code A and Code S are the exclusive place to be in SC 2. But with that being said, I don't think this hurts the NASL. I think if they have a good balance of European and NA, LA players it will be fine. I mean the NASL needs to gain respect and pestige for Koreans to really want to be playing in the NASL. And most of all the NASL needs good games. If there are good games in the NASL we will watch it.
.Aar
Profile Joined September 2010
2177 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 07:24:23
August 12 2011 07:21 GMT
#10
On August 12 2011 16:18 Carush wrote:
meh i don't see why this is nasl's fault

international flights are absurdly expensive and it just kinda sucks that way :/


For all the enmity I bear towards NASL, I simply don't see how it's their fault at all.

Want to go to a tournament and pick up some free money? Then go. Don't expect the tournament administrators to pay for your trip and give you a ride to the venue on their backs.
now run into the setting sun, and suffer, but don't mess up your hair.
1biza
Profile Joined May 2011
United States28 Posts
August 12 2011 07:23 GMT
#11
Did they seriously charge them $80 for the airport shuttle? It was completely free for my buddy and I, and we stayed at the same hotel.
vertical101
Profile Joined April 2011
Hong Kong311 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 07:56:35
August 12 2011 07:23 GMT
#12
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korean,korean. SC2con is so harsh, NASL is still new they expect too much. if travel stipend is the only issue they shouldnt bring other stuff like condition,schedule,Puma not getting his money yet (GSL champion have to wait for months before they get their prize money)
and i think the reason for some players not receiving the deposit is because they gonna use S1 players deposit to Season 2?

and if Mr.Chae is realy part of sc2con he should have stop this from happening. he know what its feels like that some organization KILL your tournaments (kespa vs GOM in BW)
Emporio
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3069 Posts
August 12 2011 07:25 GMT
#13
I'm just wondering, who is this statement by?
How does it feel knowing you wasted another 3 seconds of your life reading this again?
Diglett
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
600 Posts
August 12 2011 07:25 GMT
#14
so why did they play in the qualifiers in the first place? if you don't want to join, just don't join.
EchoZ
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Japan5041 Posts
August 12 2011 07:25 GMT
#15
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean


Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't?
Dear Sixsmith...
fraktoasters
Profile Joined January 2011
United States617 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 07:31:38
August 12 2011 07:27 GMT
#16
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korean,korean. SC2con is so harsh, NASL is still new they expect too much.


this is a pretty ridiculous statement when you remember all the things Gom provides to foreigners in the gom foreigner house.


On August 12 2011 16:13 oniman999 wrote:
If they don't want to come steal 50 grand, it's their fault :/ I see their side of it though, sponsors in Korea are hard to come by, and that makes traveling hard. I think this really hurts NASL, it hurts Koreans, and it hurts the viewers. I think this goes to show how hard it is to start and maintain a league, and maybe we'll see the NA scene become more like Korea and have one major tournament rather than several smaller ones. If I had to take my guess, MLG would be that league! I don't mean to be a doomsayer though, and I do hope NASL does well and I will continue to watch because the games last season were awesome!


The person that "stole" 50 grand was the one that didn't have to play in the middle of the night for 3 months. A lot of pain and effort over 3 months -> paying for your own trip to CA -> losing in the first round -> losing money for all the effort you had to put into nasl, all while someone from the open bracket gets 1st.
chaopow
Profile Joined March 2011
United States556 Posts
August 12 2011 07:29 GMT
#17
This really is not NASL's fault, and its sad to see a little dip in the level of play in the NASL now, being that there are barely going to be koreans now. I think the koreans are being a little too selfish in the fact that they must benefit from this tournament or atleast break even in terms of money. Players from all over the U.S./World travel to go to MLG, and hell I doubt they even come close to placing, as most of the prize money goes to korean anyways. They probably end up losing money in the end either for themselves or for their team, as they would come up empty handed and still have to pay for hotels/plane tickets.
Soowoo AD.
Nighthawks28
Profile Joined June 2011
United States232 Posts
August 12 2011 07:30 GMT
#18
On August 12 2011 16:25 EchoZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean


Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't?


It's also expensive for players from Europe to travel to the US. But koreans demand everything to be paid for them and have all the arrangements done for them (remember when the korean players were mad about the previous dreamhack arrangements?). I understand that it's expensive but they are still demanding too much. Plenty of foreigners from Europe have to pay lots of money or find sponsers to go to play in MLG, which is a very tiny prize pool.
MLG and GSL have an arrangement where they pay for eachother (MLG pays for koreans, GSL pays for foreigners).
Adebisi
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1637 Posts
August 12 2011 07:31 GMT
#19
On August 12 2011 16:25 EchoZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean


Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't?

GOM was expecting Foreigners to come over and play in a $1500 qualification tournament that spanned a month.

NASL is having Koreans come for a shot at $50,000 over 3 days. (after playing in 10 weeks of online play)

Do you see how these two things are different?

NASL is obviously also a start up, I think what NASL offered while probably not ideal for some of the smaller Korean teams, I don't think its right that SC2Con comes in and declares them all out :/. Feels like the equivalent of eSports protectionism lol.

Either way TYVM for the translations, very interesting.
hitpoint
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1511 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 07:31:27
August 12 2011 07:31 GMT
#20
On August 12 2011 16:25 EchoZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean


Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't?


MLG and GOM's situations can't be compared with NASL.

MLG only pays for 4 people.

Also the foreigners that go to GSL stand to win very little money, if any. The Koreans that would be coming over to NASL's top 16 can pretty easily make much more money than what they spent.
It's spelled LOSE not LOOSE.
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
August 12 2011 07:31 GMT
#21
Uh too much drama over this. Summary is. Some kr teams cant afford participating in NASL -> all teams threaten to withdraw from nasl if travel expenses arent paid -> NASL wont budge -> Kr teams withdraw then bitch online about the deposits and unfairness.

Just let the koreans stand by their decision and hopefully by season 3 when they realise puma has been paid and their deposits from season 1 returned, that they were silly to not paricipate in season 2 because now the prize is doubled and staying in the leaugue itself would of paid for itself.
LuciferSC
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada535 Posts
August 12 2011 07:31 GMT
#22
On August 12 2011 16:25 Diglett wrote:
so why did they play in the qualifiers in the first place? if you don't want to join, just don't join.


So many people are misinformed about the situation. NASL obviously made a play of words when they released their statement.

Check this out - from SC2Guy

No they did not bail out. They tried to discuss with NASL but NASL chose to ignore the problems and go ahead with filming. I shall quote an extract from my original post.


-------------------------------------------------------

In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties].

>> Okay, via Mr Chae, they made their conditions for continuing their participation in NASL season 2. Note how I avoided the use of the word 'demands'. I do not see anything wrong with making those requests.

In an effort to try to ease the difficulty of travel, we managed to double our travel budget to $1,000 per player in addition to the minimum prize of $500. Unfortunately, we were notified August 9th (our 2nd day of filming) that this offer was unacceptable, and that Koreans were withdrawing from the league.

We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation.

>> In the earlier paragraph you say "In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae" bla bla bla... this was well ahead of Season 2 starting. Then NASL proceeded to continue filming when the issue was not settled (notified August 9th - our 2nd day of filming). I really wonder who's fault this is?

We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season.

>> Not final hour. You chose to ignore the existing issues and started filming. They notified NASL during the prepartion for Season 2.

-------------------------------------------------------[/QUOTE]
Come get some
thee telescopes
Profile Joined August 2010
321 Posts
August 12 2011 07:32 GMT
#23
On August 12 2011 16:27 fraktoasters wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korean,korean. SC2con is so harsh, NASL is still new they expect too much.


this is a pretty ridiculous statement when you remember all the things Gom provides to foreigners in the gom foreigner house.
Gom really has to provide housing considering it would take two months before you could win any money, though.
Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
August 12 2011 07:35 GMT
#24
Yeah seems like a miscommunication. Do they know about the walk over problem (security deposit) and the fact that it's still within 60 days? Though honestly I do think security deposit is too high and it should be done a player basis rather than everyone (make the people who had issues with showing up pay double or something rather than everyone else).

NASL is starting out and more tournaments = better for eSports (yeah there are dozens of other tournaments but NASL is one of the bigger ones at least in terms of prizes).

I'm glad that there are still Koreans like Rain competing still.

Rain is the next bonjwa for SC2 >.>:

Hey you know how Flash cheesed a lot at first? Rain did the same thing too. Coincidence? I think not.

So I think it's a good deal. Future bonjwa Rain, the fOu team (thanks to deal with FXO), and Puma (thanks to EG) are still going to be in the tournament (all Koreans should be placed in separate groups though so they can all make it to the finals >.>).
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
namedplayer
Profile Joined June 2010
844 Posts
August 12 2011 07:36 GMT
#25
this is not the official opinion of korean sc2 teams.. this is reporter's opinion. you should change the title.
You know what I'm talking about
Scereye
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria154 Posts
August 12 2011 07:38 GMT
#26
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.
backtoback
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada1276 Posts
August 12 2011 07:38 GMT
#27
I can really see why korean sc2 players have left korean teams. SC2Con is so strict and I can not really blame NASL for having no koreans next season. The result of 1st place is just too great and the koreans are complaining about a few thousand dollars per person. They really need to loosen up or it will hurt e-sports in the future.
Nayl
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada413 Posts
August 12 2011 07:39 GMT
#28
Please do not take this article seriously until SC2con has made its official statement. This article reaks of bias and does all it can to make NASL look bad.

Even if what this article says is true, SC2con has absolutely no right to bar players from attending the event, if they want to. The $1000 stipend+ $1000 prize money for being in Ro16 more than makes up for travel expense for the player and they should be able to participate if they want to.
LuciferSC
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada535 Posts
August 12 2011 07:39 GMT
#29
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.
Come get some
LuciferSC
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada535 Posts
August 12 2011 07:41 GMT
#30
On August 12 2011 16:38 backtoback wrote:
I can really see why korean sc2 players have left korean teams. SC2Con is so strict and I can not really blame NASL for having no koreans next season. The result of 1st place is just too great and the koreans are complaining about a few thousand dollars per person. They really need to loosen up or it will hurt e-sports in the future.


and please be conscious of that fact that SC2Con did open up a negotiating line with NASL, they were NOT committed to participating in NASL according to what NASL's statement says.
(read my above post quoting SC2Guy above if you do not understand this)

SC2Con has every right to pull out of an event when their demanded negotiation condition was not met.
Come get some
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 07:50:27
August 12 2011 07:42 GMT
#31
I bring you a statement by Mr Chae, head of GOM, who is also part of the SC2Con:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225324
Chae Jung Won, the head of GomTV manage team "Can't understand foreigner's rejection"

GSL Super Tournament begins in coming May 23rd with top 64 GSL point rankers.
Super tournament has made issues by making competition of both code A and code S players, but unfortunately many foreigners, except Chris 'Huk' Loranger and Jonathan 'Jinro' Walsh, has rejected invitations.

Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."

PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."

The prize of participating World Championship was about 3,000,000 Won. (about 2700 USD) But in Super Tournament, if you qualify RO32 you will be guaranteed to have 1,000,000 Won. (about 900 USD) Of course you can't be sure until you hear from players, the prize pool , the chance of winning the tournament, and the travel cost are the most probable reason to reject invitation.

In fact, Dmytro 'Dimaga' Filipchuk spoke during the interview after World Championship that "It is very difficult to stay in Korea for long term since I have a girl friend and family. There are many online tournaments in Europe. That is why playing in Europe is much better choice for me."

Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S."

About question of making barrier for players in code A to promote in code S through Up and Down match, he said "The ability of player is what they can make win in Up and Down match. If you lose your Up and Down match, then you can't advance to code S. But we made change so winner of code A can advance without Up and Down match."

Written by: Lee Si Woo (siwoo@playxp.com)

(C) PlayXP

The money that a player earns for even making to the ro32 of the ST is LESS than what the teams would get from qualifying for the NASL finals and Mr Chae "Can't understand foreigner's rejection".

There are certainly valid reasons for non-NASL participation but to blame it on travel fees smacks of double standards.

On the flip-side, I didn't appreciate NASL's hostile stance on the matter and their slow handling of money.

Still, I believe NASL is going to struggle to survive without the koreans.
Scereye
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria154 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 07:45:34
August 12 2011 07:45 GMT
#32
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


"The Grand Finall was even worse. Players had to pay all of the bill for transportation, lodging, and meal. NASL gave $500 to each player who join the Grand Final but it just half of tickets and lodging. Some players can slove it to deduction in their prize. Then they can get the ticket and lodging"

$500*2= $1000?

Plus, i understand that the teams already calculate the Prize Pool as their own money, but people read this stuff like they want to.
When we read the "korean side" its the poor players which cant afford the costs (except the top players which win anyway). But when it comes to an Prizepool change from side of the NASL thats not acceptable either.
Dont get me wrong, i totally understand the reasoning of the Koreans teams behind that.
But i dislike how its written that NASL wouldnt have tried to get it to work. At the end of the day NASL cant just throw away hundreds and thousands of dollars. I would love to read a statement which is more like:
"We (Koreans) AND Nasl are sorry to announce we couldnt get it to work"
-End of Discussion-

But instead we get some e-drama kinda stuff blaming each other why it didnt work out.
Tleaf
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada181 Posts
August 12 2011 07:45 GMT
#33
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 12 2011 16:42 Azzur wrote:
I bring you at statement by Mr Chae, head of GOM, who is also part of the SC2Con:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225324
Show nested quote +
Chae Jung Won, the head of GomTV manage team "Can't understand foreigner's rejection"

GSL Super Tournament begins in coming May 23rd with top 64 GSL point rankers.
Super tournament has made issues by making competition of both code A and code S players, but unfortunately many foreigners, except Chris 'Huk' Loranger and Jonathan 'Jinro' Walsh, has rejected invitations.

Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."

PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."

The prize of participating World Championship was about 3,000,000 Won. (about 2700 USD) But in Super Tournament, if you qualify RO32 you will be guaranteed to have 1,000,000 Won. (about 900 USD) Of course you can't be sure until you hear from players, the prize pool , the chance of winning the tournament, and the travel cost are the most probable reason to reject invitation.

In fact, Dmytro 'Dimaga' Filipchuk spoke during the interview after World Championship that "It is very difficult to stay in Korea for long term since I have a girl friend and family. There are many online tournaments in Europe. That is why playing in Europe is much better choice for me."

Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S."

About question of making barrier for players in code A to promote in code S through Up and Down match, he said "The ability of player is what they can make win in Up and Down match. If you lose your Up and Down match, then you can't advance to code S. But we made change so winner of code A can advance without Up and Down match."

Written by: Lee Si Woo (siwoo@playxp.com)

(C) PlayXP

The money that a player earns for even making to the ro32 of the ST is LESS than what the teams would get from qualifying for the NASL finals and Mr Chae "Can't understand foreigner's rejection".

There are certainly valid reasons for non-NASL participation but to blame it on travel fees smacks of double standards.

On the flip-side, I didn't appreciate NASL's hostile stance on the matter and their slow handling of money.



I agree I think having the korean's play is amazing and without them its just not as interesting to me and I feel they really helped generated revenue for NASL but I hope the league does well regardless
fraktoasters
Profile Joined January 2011
United States617 Posts
August 12 2011 07:49 GMT
#34
On August 12 2011 16:45 Scereye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


"The Grand Finall was even worse. Players had to pay all of the bill for transportation, lodging, and meal. NASL gave $500 to each player who join the Grand Final but it just half of tickets and lodging. Some players can slove it to deduction in their prize. Then they can get the ticket and lodging"

$500*2= $1000?

Plus, i understand that the teams already calculate the Prize Pool as their own money, but people read this stuff like they want to.
When we read the "korean side" its the poor players which cant afford the costs (except the top players which win anyway). But when it comes to an Prizepool change from side of the NASL thats not acceptable either.
Dont get me wrong, i totally understand the reasoning of the Koreans teams behind that.
But i dislike how its written that NASL wouldnt have tried to get it to work. At the end of the day NASL cant just throw away hundreds and thousands of dollars. I would love to read a statement which is more like:
"We (Koreans) AND Nasl are sorry to announce we couldnt get it to work"
-End of Discussion-

But instead we get some e-drama kinda stuff blaming each other why it didnt work out.


The 1000$ was what NASL was willing negotiate for season 2.. 500$ was what they got for season 1.

And no, it's not right for people to speak for others so they can't just go "We (Koreans) and Nasl.."
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
August 12 2011 07:50 GMT
#35
so, by logic, GSL should pay every western pro-gamer all travel-expenses and lodging in korea when they want to play in GSL? seriously?

Also, the security-posit-argument is ridiculous - something like that is completely, like 100% common in every business contract "outside" esports. You can't ensure performance of your counterpart, therefore you demand money to have leverage.

I have never been against koreans joining the NASL, but if they feel mistreated and make strange demands I won't miss them and enjoy their play in GSL and to some extent MLG instead.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
Blackmamba851
Profile Joined February 2011
Ireland52 Posts
August 12 2011 07:51 GMT
#36
keep in mind this is not a official statement from sc2con. This is from a reporter and should be taken with a pinch of salt.
FryktSkyene
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1327 Posts
August 12 2011 07:52 GMT
#37
NASL requires a down payment?

The fuck ?
Snitches get stiches
LuciferSC
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada535 Posts
August 12 2011 07:52 GMT
#38
On August 12 2011 16:45 Scereye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


"The Grand Finall was even worse. Players had to pay all of the bill for transportation, lodging, and meal. NASL gave $500 to each player who join the Grand Final but it just half of tickets and lodging. Some players can slove it to deduction in their prize. Then they can get the ticket and lodging"

$500*2= $1000?

Plus, i understand that the teams already calculate the Prize Pool as their own money, but people read this stuff like they want to.
When we read the "korean side" its the poor players which cant afford the costs (except the top players which win anyway). But when it comes to an Prizepool change from side of the NASL thats not acceptable either.
Dont get me wrong, i totally understand the reasoning of the Koreans teams behind that.
But i dislike how its written that NASL wouldnt have tried to get it to work. At the end of the day NASL cant just throw away hundreds and thousands of dollars. I would love to read a statement which is more like:
"We (Koreans) AND Nasl are sorry to announce we couldnt get it to work"
-End of Discussion-

But instead we get some e-drama kinda stuff blaming each other why it didnt work out.


It is probably true that it's unfair to pin the blame of the failed negotiation on just one side.
So I do take that one back.

So I'd now say the blame is on both parties for failing to reach a consensus as the qualifier was under progress.
Come get some
azr
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway144 Posts
August 12 2011 07:53 GMT
#39
On August 12 2011 16:25 EchoZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean


Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't?


Because NASL isn't sponsored by companies like Blizzard, Coke and Pepsi.
jupidar
Profile Joined December 2010
United States229 Posts
August 12 2011 07:54 GMT
#40
I don't think it would be THAT hard for Korean teams to find Western teams to help cover expenses, but maybe I am wrong (something like MVP/coL).
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
August 12 2011 07:54 GMT
#41
jmbthirteen explained it best in the other thread:

On August 12 2011 16:49 jmbthirteen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:48 Bear4188 wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:45 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:43 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:41 dignitasNewmaN wrote:

From the information available they have been very forthcoming and tried to make things work for everyone. Obviously they cant pay for the travel of Koreans specifically without doing the exact same thing for everyone else flying in to the grand finals. Competition needs to be fair no matter where you are from and one group of players cant expect to get special treatment.


Then just pay for everyone's travel expenses then.

why don't Korean teams just pay for their travel?


The Korean teams, for the most part, can't afford anything beyond running their team house and transporting their players to the GSL. These teams are not the equivalent to BW teams, or western multi-game organizations. They're very new teams with almost not sponsors or business experience.

So they can't afford it. Well neither can NASL.


What an unfortunate turn of events. I hope the korean scene grows more, so they too can send their players world wide like the Americans and Europeans already had.
Thank God and gunrun.
Scereye
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria154 Posts
August 12 2011 07:55 GMT
#42
Uhm what?
I know. 500$ was for the first season which was stated to be only half of the ticket and loding.
Season 2 offering was 1000$ which is doubled and therefor atleast the ticket should be covered.
Additional 1000$ by Prizepool changes simply wasn accepted due to decrease of prizepool for the higher placed players.

Well, im not trying to defend NASL or something, im just confused. Did i get something wrong here?

Of course you wouldn't speak for someone else. I never said someone shouldve done that.
But why do those statements always have to be that harsh and blamefull towards the other side?
Thats what i was trying to say.
yoshi_yoshi
Profile Joined January 2010
United States440 Posts
August 12 2011 07:55 GMT
#43
I'm going to have to side with NASL on this one.

All the Korean complaints are reasonable, but it looks like they waited until NASL season 2 was all set up before they made their demands. They tried to get as much leverage as they can:
- grouping up as a unit under SC2CON
- qualifying their players for NASL season 2, meaning it would be a big burden to NASL to lose all these players

All their complaints are publicly known for a while now. If they had made the negotiations before season 2 qualifiers, they knew they would have a lot less leverage.
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
August 12 2011 07:55 GMT
#44
Sounds like they're saying the same thing as NASL.

Except NASL said it with a "they knew what they were getting into" attitude, while this said it with a "I'm just an innocent young girl and I didn't know what was going on" attitude.
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
Torpedo.Vegas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1890 Posts
August 12 2011 07:58 GMT
#45
I just tried google translating PLAYXP and either the translation sucks, or PLAYXP SC2 forum-goers like to talk about Chicken and some dude named Frank.
Bear4188
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1797 Posts
August 12 2011 07:59 GMT
#46
On August 12 2011 16:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I just tried google translating PLAYXP and either the translation sucks, or PLAYXP SC2 forum-goers like to talk about Chicken and some dude named Frank.


Frank is MarineKing.

And everybody loves chicken.
"I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something." - R. Feynman
unoriginalname
Profile Joined November 2010
England380 Posts
August 12 2011 07:59 GMT
#47
Are the Korean sponsors just for show? I see teams with a plethora of logos on their shirt, yet they cannot acquire the funds from any of those to travel to a tournament that will help promote their teams and sponsors?

Hmmm
vertical101
Profile Joined April 2011
Hong Kong311 Posts
August 12 2011 08:00 GMT
#48
On August 12 2011 16:25 EchoZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean


Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't?

MLG and GOM is old in this business and have more sponsors,ads while NASL i think is funded by private money im not sure. NASL is still new, SC2con should have wait more and not trying to pull a kespa 2.0
Torpedo.Vegas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1890 Posts
August 12 2011 08:01 GMT
#49
On August 12 2011 16:59 Bear4188 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I just tried google translating PLAYXP and either the translation sucks, or PLAYXP SC2 forum-goers like to talk about Chicken and some dude named Frank.


Frank is MarineKing.

And everybody loves chicken.


Why do Koreans call MarineKingPrime....Frank. Is it like some sexy foreigner sounding name? Gets him all the ladies? Frank gogo!
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
August 12 2011 08:01 GMT
#50
On August 12 2011 16:54 Primadog wrote:
jmbthirteen explained it best in the other thread:

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:49 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:48 Bear4188 wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:45 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:43 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:41 dignitasNewmaN wrote:

From the information available they have been very forthcoming and tried to make things work for everyone. Obviously they cant pay for the travel of Koreans specifically without doing the exact same thing for everyone else flying in to the grand finals. Competition needs to be fair no matter where you are from and one group of players cant expect to get special treatment.


Then just pay for everyone's travel expenses then.

why don't Korean teams just pay for their travel?


The Korean teams, for the most part, can't afford anything beyond running their team house and transporting their players to the GSL. These teams are not the equivalent to BW teams, or western multi-game organizations. They're very new teams with almost not sponsors or business experience.

So they can't afford it. Well neither can NASL.


What an unfortunate turn of events. I hope the korean scene grows more, so they too can send their players world wide like the Americans and Europeans already had.


This pretty much summarize it all up. Also I don't really trust/like this "Sc2con", It's going to be interesting to hear FXOBoSS opinions or facts later about them.
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
Govou
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1072 Posts
August 12 2011 08:02 GMT
#51
A lot of mistranslation and I think the main point was lost in translation.

basically it comes down to this

1) security deposit. It was fish to begin with and noone recieved the deposit back from season 1 yet.

2) scheduling, i think everyone understand it was hell for top korean pros. They had some of the games rescheduled but even those rescheduled games got canceled in some instance

3) lag

4) money issue. they had to deduct from prize money to pay for lodging and traveling. NASL also asked for $80 dollar transportation between LAX and convention centre.

5) therefore they decided to negotiate for no deposit and more traveling fee

6) none of the prize money has been paid out so far

now if this is true, I agree with decision to hold out till better conditions are met
fraktoasters
Profile Joined January 2011
United States617 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:04:13
August 12 2011 08:02 GMT
#52
On August 12 2011 16:55 Scereye wrote:
Uhm what?
I know. 500$ was for the first season which was stated to be only half of the ticket and loding.
Season 2 offering was 1000$ which is doubled and therefor atleast the ticket should be covered.
Additional 1000$ by Prizepool changes simply wasn accepted due to decrease of prizepool for the higher placed players.

Well, im not trying to defend NASL or something, im just confused. Did i get something wrong here?

Of course you wouldn't speak for someone else. I never said someone shouldve done that.
But why do those statements always have to be that harsh and blamefull towards the other side?
Thats what i was trying to say.


It's helpful to quote people you're referring to. Your previous post didn't even say anything about the 1000 bucks you just said:

$500*2= $1000?

......so I thought I'd explain that number. It's not.... you weren't even saying anything about the prize money except for a question mark so I just assumed you were confused what those numbers came from.....


On August 12 2011 16:45 Scereye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


"The Grand Finall was even worse. Players had to pay all of the bill for transportation, lodging, and meal. NASL gave $500 to each player who join the Grand Final but it just half of tickets and lodging. Some players can slove it to deduction in their prize. Then they can get the ticket and lodging"

$500*2= $1000?

Plus, i understand that the teams already calculate the Prize Pool as their own money, but people read this stuff like they want to.
When we read the "korean side" its the poor players which cant afford the costs (except the top players which win anyway). But when it comes to an Prizepool change from side of the NASL thats not acceptable either.
Dont get me wrong, i totally understand the reasoning of the Koreans teams behind that.
But i dislike how its written that NASL wouldnt have tried to get it to work. At the end of the day NASL cant just throw away hundreds and thousands of dollars. I would love to read a statement which is more like:
"We (Koreans) AND Nasl are sorry to announce we couldnt get it to work"
-End of Discussion-

But instead we get some e-drama kinda stuff blaming each other why it didnt work out.

Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:03:08
August 12 2011 08:02 GMT
#53
Im with the NASL on this one. It s a very nice opportunity that they let Koreans compete if they want to. They make it sound like it s NASLs duty to assure every Korean makes money on it. Why dont foreigners blame GOM for not giving them a couple 1000 dollars?

As for the deposit, i dont think there s anything wrong with that, i personally dont believe that NASL would hold that back, im not sure if this was said or i misunderstood the tarnslation isnt very clear.

1000 dollar is a lot, 2000 is more then what a player actually needs for the trip, AND there s a huge ass pricepool which they are favored to take. And beside, even if u dont win, u get a free fucking trip to the US, i realize it s not like going in Italy or Paris but still, an experience.

If they consider it s not worth it to compete in those conditions, that s ok, but this official withdrawal is really stupid.

Personally, if i m allowed to play in a Mongolian (just a random country, no specific reason) SC2 tournament, which i have good chances of winning and almost guaranteed to finish in a paid spot, but they ask that i play when they say i have to, and i will have to fly to Mongolia and they might not pay my full expences, only half or i have to negotiate in order for them to pay it full, well i d say thank you very much. If my team would come and say, hey we re not OK with you possibly winning several thousans of dollars and a free trip, so dont play, i d tell them to go fuck themselves.

Excuse my language
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
LuciferSC
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada535 Posts
August 12 2011 08:02 GMT
#54
Scereye - just trying to be fair & correctly state that NASL was offering to cover upto $1000 for the travel expense from their own pocket.

And yoshi_yoshi, my current position is that both sides are at fault, not trying to make NASL look bad for whatever reason, but NASL's statement does not make it clear whether Koreans raised their objections regarding accommodation prior to the starting of the qualifiers or after.

You sir, are making a big assumption there.
Come get some
snafoo
Profile Joined August 2010
New Zealand1615 Posts
August 12 2011 08:03 GMT
#55
On August 12 2011 16:42 Azzur wrote:
I bring you a statement by Mr Chae, head of GOM, who is also part of the SC2Con:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225324
Show nested quote +
Chae Jung Won, the head of GomTV manage team "Can't understand foreigner's rejection"

GSL Super Tournament begins in coming May 23rd with top 64 GSL point rankers.
Super tournament has made issues by making competition of both code A and code S players, but unfortunately many foreigners, except Chris 'Huk' Loranger and Jonathan 'Jinro' Walsh, has rejected invitations.

Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."

PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."

The prize of participating World Championship was about 3,000,000 Won. (about 2700 USD) But in Super Tournament, if you qualify RO32 you will be guaranteed to have 1,000,000 Won. (about 900 USD) Of course you can't be sure until you hear from players, the prize pool , the chance of winning the tournament, and the travel cost are the most probable reason to reject invitation.

In fact, Dmytro 'Dimaga' Filipchuk spoke during the interview after World Championship that "It is very difficult to stay in Korea for long term since I have a girl friend and family. There are many online tournaments in Europe. That is why playing in Europe is much better choice for me."

Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S."

About question of making barrier for players in code A to promote in code S through Up and Down match, he said "The ability of player is what they can make win in Up and Down match. If you lose your Up and Down match, then you can't advance to code S. But we made change so winner of code A can advance without Up and Down match."

Written by: Lee Si Woo (siwoo@playxp.com)

(C) PlayXP

The money that a player earns for even making to the ro32 of the ST is LESS than what the teams would get from qualifying for the NASL finals and Mr Chae "Can't understand foreigner's rejection".

There are certainly valid reasons for non-NASL participation but to blame it on travel fees smacks of double standards.

On the flip-side, I didn't appreciate NASL's hostile stance on the matter and their slow handling of money.

Still, I believe NASL is going to struggle to survive without the koreans.


SC2Con is a player/team related thing, I don't know why you're quoting something from a GOM employee who isn't actually part of SC2Con -_-
jjw
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)6 Posts
August 12 2011 08:03 GMT
#56
Actually Most of Korean team exept Slayers have not much sonsors. OGS is quite better but other team is not good as you guys thinking about.
dennistoo
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore155 Posts
August 12 2011 08:03 GMT
#57
Who cares, USD is so weak now.

Cheap.

User was temp banned for this post.
MC to Idra: 2-0? You Dream. I 4-0, you cry.
xBillehx
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States1289 Posts
August 12 2011 08:03 GMT
#58
A lot of people seem to be forgetting that Season 2 qualifiers happened June 28 to July 3rd, BEFORE the grand finals of the NASL on July 8-10.

NASL kind of rushed it, so the experience from the grand final changed their attitudes about the whole thing, but at that point qualifiers were already over.
Taengoo ♥
Bear4188
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1797 Posts
August 12 2011 08:03 GMT
#59
On August 12 2011 16:59 unoriginalname wrote:
Are the Korean sponsors just for show? I see teams with a plethora of logos on their shirt, yet they cannot acquire the funds from any of those to travel to a tournament that will help promote their teams and sponsors?



The bring in enough to operate their team house, buy food, pay their utilities, etc. Also many of the sponsors are Korean companies that would gain absolutely nothing by exposing their brand to a market they aren't even in.

SlayerS is fortunate enough to be run by two experienced celebrities who were able to secure a sponsorship from an international corporation like Razer who is interested in sending them to high profile international events. Prime is sponsored by a Korean chicken restaurant.
"I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something." - R. Feynman
Bear4188
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1797 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:05:08
August 12 2011 08:04 GMT
#60
On August 12 2011 17:01 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:59 Bear4188 wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I just tried google translating PLAYXP and either the translation sucks, or PLAYXP SC2 forum-goers like to talk about Chicken and some dude named Frank.


Frank is MarineKing.

And everybody loves chicken.


Why do Koreans call MarineKingPrime....Frank. Is it like some sexy foreigner sounding name? Gets him all the ladies? Frank gogo!


They don't actually call him Frank, that's just how Google translate mutilates his real name.

edit: aww crap I should have edited that in
"I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something." - R. Feynman
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
August 12 2011 08:05 GMT
#61
On August 12 2011 16:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I just tried google translating PLAYXP and either the translation sucks, or PLAYXP SC2 forum-goers like to talk about Chicken and some dude named Frank.


Sorry, but Frank is a rabbit
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Also I don't really get the drama, I mean, one side makes demands, the other side can't meet them...what's the bid deal? I mean, it happens every day multiple times in business?
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
Kavas
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia3421 Posts
August 12 2011 08:06 GMT
#62
On August 12 2011 16:50 sleepingdog wrote:
so, by logic, GSL should pay every western pro-gamer all travel-expenses and lodging in korea when they want to play in GSL? seriously?

GSL does pay for travel expenses of western pro-gamers who have earned their GSL spots (MLG-GSL exchange program) and they provide the lodging for every foreigner who wants to try the GSL. Koreans who are travelling to the NASL finals have earned their spots so it is reasonable for them to expect their travelling and lodgings accommodated for. It is understandable that NASL is not as financially secured as the GSL/MLG but if you claim to be a top league you have to do what a top league does.

Also, the security-posit-argument is ridiculous - something like that is completely, like 100% common in every business contract "outside" esports. You can't ensure performance of your counterpart, therefore you demand money to have leverage.

Doubling your required security deposit (and NASL still hasn't given a good reason why) in an instant is common in businesses? News to me.

I have never been against koreans joining the NASL, but if they feel mistreated and make strange demands I won't miss them and enjoy their play in GSL and to some extent MLG instead.

Govou
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1072 Posts
August 12 2011 08:07 GMT
#63
to OP:

I applaud your effort to bring in the news but I think you left out alot of critical info.
Torpedo.Vegas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1890 Posts
August 12 2011 08:09 GMT
#64
On August 12 2011 17:04 Bear4188 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:01 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:59 Bear4188 wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I just tried google translating PLAYXP and either the translation sucks, or PLAYXP SC2 forum-goers like to talk about Chicken and some dude named Frank.


Frank is MarineKing.

And everybody loves chicken.


Why do Koreans call MarineKingPrime....Frank. Is it like some sexy foreigner sounding name? Gets him all the ladies? Frank gogo!


They don't actually call him Frank, that's just how Google translate mutilates his real name.

edit: aww crap I should have edited that in


We should call him Frank from now on. MarineKing "Frank" Prime. Our way to cheer on MarineKing. Start a movement!
lim1017
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1278 Posts
August 12 2011 08:09 GMT
#65
Imo they should just strike a deal with all the korean players going.

How much did all the koreans at the last nasl win? Probably like 80k

Sc2con can take 10% of their winnings + allowance to pay for everything

They will be playing for 45k first instead of 50k no big deal
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:16:07
August 12 2011 08:14 GMT
#66
It's nobody's fault, there's not enough money in the scene yet. Hope things will get better, as it still keeps growing. There are still whole 2 expansions to come, and then the elephant in the room. GL to both NASL and the Korean teams which pulled out. Thanks for the translation and the quotes.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Scereye
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria154 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:17:07
August 12 2011 08:15 GMT
#67
@fraktoasters: I was quoting OP, but only in Apastrophes&Bolding but with no nickname
The Question mark was more kinda "Am i doing this calculation wrong!?"
Sorry about that, but i'm not used to this board yet.

All in all its probably a perspective thing. I can unerstand the Korean teams but i can also understand NASL.

Also, if Reasons Nr. 1&6 from Mr. Govou are true, its even more understandable they declined.
The other reasons where obvious from the begin... kinda...
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
August 12 2011 08:16 GMT
#68
On August 12 2011 17:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im with the NASL on this one. It s a very nice opportunity that they let Koreans compete if they want to. They make it sound like it s NASLs duty to assure every Korean makes money on it. Why dont foreigners blame GOM for not giving them a couple 1000 dollars?

As for the deposit, i dont think there s anything wrong with that, i personally dont believe that NASL would hold that back, im not sure if this was said or i misunderstood the tarnslation isnt very clear.

1000 dollar is a lot, 2000 is more then what a player actually needs for the trip, AND there s a huge ass pricepool which they are favored to take. And beside, even if u dont win, u get a free fucking trip to the US, i realize it s not like going in Italy or Paris but still, an experience.

If they consider it s not worth it to compete in those conditions, that s ok, but this official withdrawal is really stupid.

Personally, if i m allowed to play in a Mongolian (just a random country, no specific reason) SC2 tournament, which i have good chances of winning and almost guaranteed to finish in a paid spot, but they ask that i play when they say i have to, and i will have to fly to Mongolia and they might not pay my full expences, only half or i have to negotiate in order for them to pay it full, well i d say thank you very much. If my team would come and say, hey we re not OK with you possibly winning several thousans of dollars and a free trip, so dont play, i d tell them to go fuck themselves.

Excuse my language

There's no $2000, only $1000. The other $1000 is the money that will be deducted in the prize money that the player win, so it's like the player's money, not NASL.

If you have the money to go by yourself, then yes, it sounds reasonable. But to the Korean players, they have to rely on the team/manager to pay for the expense, and the team doesn't pay for you alone, but for other players too. And you really underestimate the deposit money. Remember that ST team said they spend 2,000,000 won/month to feed the players? Well 2,000,000won ~ $1800. So for team such as OGS who has to put the money deposit for MC, Zenio, Nada, Top, Ensnare, I don't think they would be happy to let their rice money to tie up without knowing when they gonna get back.
jnsjr
Profile Joined February 2011
United States461 Posts
August 12 2011 08:17 GMT
#69
On August 12 2011 16:59 Bear4188 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I just tried google translating PLAYXP and either the translation sucks, or PLAYXP SC2 forum-goers like to talk about Chicken and some dude named Frank.


Frank is MarineKing.

And everybody loves chicken.


loooool, that's great.

Anyway, what a terrible situation for the players.
Z: Idra #1 Stephano JD Scarlett Dimaga Life Violet DRG Sen; T: Demuslim Puma Illusion Bomber Polt TSpoon Strelok; P: Hasuobs Huk; Casters: Apollo #1 Axslav DJWheat Tasteless Bitter Artosis Incontrol RSimpson Psy Team: Let's GO EG!!
MethodSC
Profile Joined December 2010
United States928 Posts
August 12 2011 08:17 GMT
#70
Isn't the deposit to make sure the players attend correctly? but shouldn't their reputation being on the line be enough these days? I know first time around it was a new tournament, but the second time around it's established and more is at stake for everyone, especially with more eyes on it now. Dunno, the koreans don't seem to have too steep of demands imo. Not having koreans in the tournament will cost the NASL more than the travel costs, so their demands will probably be met anyhow.
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:21:54
August 12 2011 08:18 GMT
#71
On August 12 2011 16:31 Adebisi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:25 EchoZ wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean


Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't?

GOM was expecting Foreigners to come over and play in a $1500 qualification tournament that spanned a month.

NASL is having Koreans come for a shot at $50,000 over 3 days. (after playing in 10 weeks of online play)

Do you see how these two things are different?

NASL is obviously also a start up, I think what NASL offered while probably not ideal for some of the smaller Korean teams, I don't think its right that SC2Con comes in and declares them all out :/. Feels like the equivalent of eSports protectionism lol.

Either way TYVM for the translations, very interesting.


$50,000 over 3 days? No No No. NASL lasts for 3 months. For 3 months, you have to get up at 4am a few time a week, and may end up earning nothing (fail to qualify for the finals, and you get $0) after nearly 3 months. Even if you enter the finals, there are 16 players competing for the $40000 ( and only one can get that amount of money); 90% of chance you will get $`1000 or $1500.

3 months, 95% of chance of getting only $1000 - 1500. Think about it, dude.

In a word, the key here is 3 months.
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 08:18 GMT
#72
On August 12 2011 17:03 snafoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:42 Azzur wrote:
I bring you a statement by Mr Chae, head of GOM, who is also part of the SC2Con:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225324
Chae Jung Won, the head of GomTV manage team "Can't understand foreigner's rejection"

GSL Super Tournament begins in coming May 23rd with top 64 GSL point rankers.
Super tournament has made issues by making competition of both code A and code S players, but unfortunately many foreigners, except Chris 'Huk' Loranger and Jonathan 'Jinro' Walsh, has rejected invitations.

Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."

PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."

The prize of participating World Championship was about 3,000,000 Won. (about 2700 USD) But in Super Tournament, if you qualify RO32 you will be guaranteed to have 1,000,000 Won. (about 900 USD) Of course you can't be sure until you hear from players, the prize pool , the chance of winning the tournament, and the travel cost are the most probable reason to reject invitation.

In fact, Dmytro 'Dimaga' Filipchuk spoke during the interview after World Championship that "It is very difficult to stay in Korea for long term since I have a girl friend and family. There are many online tournaments in Europe. That is why playing in Europe is much better choice for me."

Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S."

About question of making barrier for players in code A to promote in code S through Up and Down match, he said "The ability of player is what they can make win in Up and Down match. If you lose your Up and Down match, then you can't advance to code S. But we made change so winner of code A can advance without Up and Down match."

Written by: Lee Si Woo (siwoo@playxp.com)

(C) PlayXP

The money that a player earns for even making to the ro32 of the ST is LESS than what the teams would get from qualifying for the NASL finals and Mr Chae "Can't understand foreigner's rejection".

There are certainly valid reasons for non-NASL participation but to blame it on travel fees smacks of double standards.

On the flip-side, I didn't appreciate NASL's hostile stance on the matter and their slow handling of money.

Still, I believe NASL is going to struggle to survive without the koreans.


SC2Con is a player/team related thing, I don't know why you're quoting something from a GOM employee who isn't actually part of SC2Con -_-

Mr Chae is part of SC2Con.

In NASL's official statement:
In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties].

Tommylew
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Wales2717 Posts
August 12 2011 08:19 GMT
#73
why should NASL pay out for ALL THE KOREANS THAT QUALIFY, MLG have to pay for only 4 in the partnership with GSL and Vice versa, NASL shouldnt be expected to pay for all the koreans to come over for offline finals..... If NASL said well we will pay for the top 4 to return or something similar then it will still annoy the other Koreans. They cant keep changing thigns to suit the large nubmer of Koreans, the top prize is a lot and well worth it, its a risk and a gamble that you have to take to try and win it.

For the people saying that hold the final in Korea, what happens if non koreans do wella nd maanage to win and get into top 8? Its the same difference they would ahve to pay big travel costs to get there to play as well as the casters.
Live and Let Die!
fraktoasters
Profile Joined January 2011
United States617 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:23:52
August 12 2011 08:20 GMT
#74
People are making it sound like this is just about a 3 day tournament that Koreans want to be paid 200$ to go to, and are conveniently forgetting the part about you having to play in the middle of the night for 3 months to get to the finals.

On August 12 2011 16:04 jjw wrote:
Second there were no care about Korean players who join the NASL. Korean top player like Boxer, moon, mc, Nada but they should overcome the parallax and they had terrible condiction to play game and schedule was changed and it made things worse.


You play in horrible conditions for 3 months only for the possibility of losing money trying to play in the finals? How could it get worse. No surprise they wouldn't want to play.

Edit: I don't care if it's fair or not for people to expect NASL to pay finalist more (..they do have a gigantic prize pool but whatever), but the set up for NASL is pretty much as bad as it could get for Koreans so this shouldn't be a surprise.
havox_
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany442 Posts
August 12 2011 08:21 GMT
#75
At least the press releases bascially say the same, so noone made up a story...

a) It's just a different view on things what a league should do for their stars (yes, the league is worthless without the players) etc. This is what happens when these different cultures and esport scenes start working together, nothing too dramatic imho.

b) The Koreans dont like the playing conditions, which is understandable - yet they knew about that before the start of the league.


I'm sure we will see less and less of such stupid problems in the future - especially when the Korean teams will finally manage to get some sponsors (or are bought by Western teams^^).
blAke139
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Switzerland199 Posts
August 12 2011 08:22 GMT
#76
On August 12 2011 16:08 SenorChang wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:07 Primadog wrote:
Seems like the Korean side collaborates with what the NASL release said (abate with a different attitude). It's unfortunate that the scene has not become sufficiently big that travel cease to be an issue.

Shows how fragile StarCraft 2 remains and how much more it has to grow in order to become a proper competitive sport.

Need an airline to sponsor Sc2!
yee!

Thanks for translating

I can fully understand where the koreans come from withdrawing for NASL. The conditions for them are so poor, with having to get up at 4am to play their games, over the course of 3 months - then fly across the globe to lose 1 set and be out of it (felt bad for Ret too :< - first seed and out so fast with no chance at redemption) - and with the stipend deal they will essentially have earned nothing for it.

Really wish NASL would re-do their tournament structure.




Like that one?
http://cdn.gamerant.com/wp-content/uploads/starcraft-2-airplane.jpg
Check out my original SC2 Songs: http://www.youtube.com/user/blAkeMusic4Life
Baby_Seal
Profile Joined August 2010
United States360 Posts
August 12 2011 08:23 GMT
#77
On August 12 2011 17:17 MethodSC wrote:
Isn't the deposit to make sure the players attend correctly? but shouldn't their reputation being on the line be enough these days? I know first time around it was a new tournament, but the second time around it's established and more is at stake for everyone, especially with more eyes on it now. Dunno, the koreans don't seem to have too steep of demands imo. Not having koreans in the tournament will cost the NASL more than the travel costs, so their demands will probably be met anyhow.


Unfortunately, even with the deposit, there were still quite a few walkovers last season, and I suspect that upping the deposit is to help prevent that. The NASL is a commitment over multiple months, and they want to make sure that the players that sign up are committed and won't just abandon it halfway.
vertical101
Profile Joined April 2011
Hong Kong311 Posts
August 12 2011 08:24 GMT
#78
Korean is really good taking foreign money(prize+this shit). this unfair for western-programer.
top 10 of prizemoney is korean, next thing we know they want to eat us aLive. they should have been happy from what they have. and think for foreigner player too. korean get special treatment in foreign tournaments.
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
August 12 2011 08:24 GMT
#79
On August 12 2011 17:20 fraktoasters wrote:
People are making it sound like this is just about a 3 day tournament that Koreans want to be paid 200$ to go to, and are conveniently forgetting the part about you having to play in the middle of the night for 3 months to get to the finals.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:04 jjw wrote:
Second there were no care about Korean players who join the NASL. Korean top player like Boxer, moon, mc, Nada but they should overcome the parallax and they had terrible condiction to play game and schedule was changed and it made things worse.


You play in horrible conditions for 3 months only for the possibility of losing money trying to play in the finals? How could it get worse. No surprise they wouldn't want to play.


well said.

btw, may want to replace ''middle of the night'' with '' very early in the morning''.
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
W2
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1177 Posts
August 12 2011 08:26 GMT
#80
This seems like an argument between team managers and NASL, the players just got caught in between, and suffer because of it.

From the looks of the negotiations, SC2 Conf does NOT support players rights. It represents more of the manager's interest. Which is natural because it consists of only one player, all the rest are coaches/managers.

If it were not for this council laying down the law, I am sure there would still be players willing to make the trip, and accept the $2000 stipend. However, instead of allowing each player to make their own decision, the team managers decided to band together and make the decision for everyone.

Normal person: Learns about a tournament, weighs costs and benefits, decides not to go.

Cunning person: Learns about a tournament, weights costs and benefits, decides not to go, then convinces everyone else not to go in the slight chance that it may come back to benefit him.
Hi
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
August 12 2011 08:27 GMT
#81
On August 12 2011 17:21 havox_ wrote:
At least the press releases bascially say the same, so noone made up a story...

a) It's just a different view on things what a league should do for their stars (yes, the league is worthless without the players) etc. This is what happens when these different cultures and esport scenes start working together, nothing too dramatic imho.

b) The Koreans dont like the playing conditions, which is understandable - yet they knew about that before the start of the league.


I'm sure we will see less and less of such stupid problems in the future - especially when the Korean teams will finally manage to get some sponsors (or are bought by Western teams^^).


You misunderstand it. The biggest problem is that 3 months too long, not to mention that they have to get up early in the morning for each match.
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
August 12 2011 08:29 GMT
#82
On August 12 2011 17:16 canikizu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im with the NASL on this one. It s a very nice opportunity that they let Koreans compete if they want to. They make it sound like it s NASLs duty to assure every Korean makes money on it. Why dont foreigners blame GOM for not giving them a couple 1000 dollars?

As for the deposit, i dont think there s anything wrong with that, i personally dont believe that NASL would hold that back, im not sure if this was said or i misunderstood the tarnslation isnt very clear.

1000 dollar is a lot, 2000 is more then what a player actually needs for the trip, AND there s a huge ass pricepool which they are favored to take. And beside, even if u dont win, u get a free fucking trip to the US, i realize it s not like going in Italy or Paris but still, an experience.

If they consider it s not worth it to compete in those conditions, that s ok, but this official withdrawal is really stupid.

Personally, if i m allowed to play in a Mongolian (just a random country, no specific reason) SC2 tournament, which i have good chances of winning and almost guaranteed to finish in a paid spot, but they ask that i play when they say i have to, and i will have to fly to Mongolia and they might not pay my full expences, only half or i have to negotiate in order for them to pay it full, well i d say thank you very much. If my team would come and say, hey we re not OK with you possibly winning several thousans of dollars and a free trip, so dont play, i d tell them to go fuck themselves.

Excuse my language

There's no $2000, only $1000. The other $1000 is the money that will be deducted in the prize money that the player win, so it's like the player's money, not NASL.

If you have the money to go by yourself, then yes, it sounds reasonable. But to the Korean players, they have to rely on the team/manager to pay for the expense, and the team doesn't pay for you alone, but for other players too. And you really underestimate the deposit money. Remember that ST team said they spend 2,000,000 won/month to feed the players? Well 2,000,000won ~ $1800. So for team such as OGS who has to put the money deposit for MC, Zenio, Nada, Top, Ensnare, I don't think they would be happy to let their rice money to tie up without knowing when they gonna get back.

from nasl statement
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend).

I might be misunderstanding it, but it makes it impossible this way for Koreans who go to the offline event to lose money on it.

As for the deposit, sorry, you did not convince me. I recognize it can be a problem, but a team has several options aside from saying fck off, nobody goes, like:
We re paying the deposits for one or two players, which can be decided based on the in house tournaments- rankings.
OR
We allow you to go if u want to, but you have to pay the deposit from your own pocket. If you dont think it s worth it to ˝risk˝ it, dont go.

And again, it s a deposit, if NASL doesnt pay it back, well ok, then people will be up in the arms against them, and for good reason.

I think it s a dick move from the teams to forbid their players to play if they want to, let s be realistic even if they dont get full coverage for their trip (which they kinda would) Koreans are 99% sure to take home the better part of the price pool. One or two players might end up in a negative with a couple of bucks, but for that they were allowed a foreign trip and a chance to promote themselves and their teams in an international event and gain fans, and again, most of them make several grands on it.

My opinion did not change, korean team managers are denying money from their players.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Blitzmarine
Profile Joined July 2009
39 Posts
August 12 2011 08:32 GMT
#83
EE for StarcraftⅡGallery! Maybe I can help you as you requested at gallery….

First NASL require deposit(250bucks) to join the tournament.

-> NASL demanded each participating players to pay 250$ for deposit during online tornament.

They told that they will pay back it but still players who join the tournament didn't get it. NASL also require more deposit($500) in the next season

->NASL told they will refund it after tornament, but players who participated in NASL didn't received their money yet. NASL also doubled the amount of deposit since Season 2.

Second there were no care about Korean players who join the NASL. Korean top player like Boxer, moon, mc, Nada but they should overcome the parallax and they had terrible condiction to play game and schedule was changed and it made things worse.

-> Lack of consideration for participants was also a problem. In NASL Season 1, many Top-class Korean players - SlayerS_BoxeR, foxmoon, oGsMC, oGsNada, etc. - participated. Due to the difference between time zone, they have to play under terrible condition, and frequntly changed schedule made the problem worse.

Also player disapointed NASL compare the TSL3 and their some lacks that made hard to play on the online

-> Some players didn't satisfied about NASL's tornament system - compared to TSL3 - and they suffered from lag since NASL is online tornament.

I'll back if I have some time later….
Govou
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1072 Posts
August 12 2011 08:33 GMT
#84
On August 12 2011 17:29 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:16 canikizu wrote:
On August 12 2011 17:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im with the NASL on this one. It s a very nice opportunity that they let Koreans compete if they want to. They make it sound like it s NASLs duty to assure every Korean makes money on it. Why dont foreigners blame GOM for not giving them a couple 1000 dollars?

As for the deposit, i dont think there s anything wrong with that, i personally dont believe that NASL would hold that back, im not sure if this was said or i misunderstood the tarnslation isnt very clear.

1000 dollar is a lot, 2000 is more then what a player actually needs for the trip, AND there s a huge ass pricepool which they are favored to take. And beside, even if u dont win, u get a free fucking trip to the US, i realize it s not like going in Italy or Paris but still, an experience.

If they consider it s not worth it to compete in those conditions, that s ok, but this official withdrawal is really stupid.

Personally, if i m allowed to play in a Mongolian (just a random country, no specific reason) SC2 tournament, which i have good chances of winning and almost guaranteed to finish in a paid spot, but they ask that i play when they say i have to, and i will have to fly to Mongolia and they might not pay my full expences, only half or i have to negotiate in order for them to pay it full, well i d say thank you very much. If my team would come and say, hey we re not OK with you possibly winning several thousans of dollars and a free trip, so dont play, i d tell them to go fuck themselves.

Excuse my language

There's no $2000, only $1000. The other $1000 is the money that will be deducted in the prize money that the player win, so it's like the player's money, not NASL.

If you have the money to go by yourself, then yes, it sounds reasonable. But to the Korean players, they have to rely on the team/manager to pay for the expense, and the team doesn't pay for you alone, but for other players too. And you really underestimate the deposit money. Remember that ST team said they spend 2,000,000 won/month to feed the players? Well 2,000,000won ~ $1800. So for team such as OGS who has to put the money deposit for MC, Zenio, Nada, Top, Ensnare, I don't think they would be happy to let their rice money to tie up without knowing when they gonna get back.

from nasl statement
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend).

I might be misunderstanding it, but it makes it impossible this way for Koreans who go to the offline event to lose money on it.

As for the deposit, sorry, you did not convince me. I recognize it can be a problem, but a team has several options aside from saying fck off, nobody goes, like:
We re paying the deposits for one or two players, which can be decided based on the in house tournaments- rankings.
OR
We allow you to go if u want to, but you have to pay the deposit from your own pocket. If you dont think it s worth it to ˝risk˝ it, dont go.

And again, it s a deposit, if NASL doesnt pay it back, well ok, then people will be up in the arms against them, and for good reason.

I think it s a dick move from the teams to forbid their players to play if they want to, let s be realistic even if they dont get full coverage for their trip (which they kinda would) Koreans are 99% sure to take home the better part of the price pool. One or two players might end up in a negative with a couple of bucks, but for that they were allowed a foreign trip and a chance to promote themselves and their teams in an international event and gain fans, and again, most of them make several grands on it.

My opinion did not change, korean team managers are denying money from their players.


I think the main point is that NASL made the money but none of that was distributed to players. After all the stuffs korean pros had to deal with.
BigLighthouse
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom424 Posts
August 12 2011 08:33 GMT
#85
The one thing I dont understand about all this is why the Korean team's made such an effort to qualify. I understand the difficulties with cross server play for them and the time issues but when you sign up to qualify you are basically saying "I accept this". The expenses is more easy to get my head around because they obviously had the opinion that they could persuade NASL to sweeten the deal for them but needed players to qualify first. But to bring up the time of games and the cross server play in response to this set of events doesnt seem quite appropriate to me.
Pwnographics
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand1097 Posts
August 12 2011 08:34 GMT
#86
Long story short; NASL treated Koreans badly in the first NASL season. Many Koreans had to stay up to the whee hours of the morning to play matches for 3 months straight whereas the matches could be easily better scheduled like the TSL3.

The Korean association spoke on behalf of all the Korean players that they wanted an improvement for all Koreans - they didn't just want the winner to benefit but the community as a whole.

NASL could not meet their demands.

Koreans will not be participating, which means the NASL is now similar to the IPL except with worse production value.
Phayze
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2029 Posts
August 12 2011 08:35 GMT
#87
I actually like that the Korean teams do not want to participate in the NASL. It's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. Fees like this encourage foreign players to do better. For foreign e-sports to grow, these players need to be able to support themselves just to be able to match the same practice regime the koreans have. Until that happens Foreigners will always be worse than koreans. Sure, you can say I dont want Koreans to play because they will win. And that is partially true, but I dont want Koreans to win right now, or there will always be a large skill gap.
Proud member of the LGA-1366 Core-i7 4Ghz Club
cheesemaster
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1975 Posts
August 12 2011 08:36 GMT
#88
On August 12 2011 17:35 Phayze wrote:
I actually like that the Korean teams do not want to participate in the NASL. It's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. Fees like this encourage foreign players to do better. For foreign e-sports to grow, these players need to be able to support themselves just to be able to match the same practice regime the koreans have. Until that happens Foreigners will always be worse than koreans. Sure, you can say I dont want Koreans to play because they will win. And that is partially true, but I dont want Koreans to win right now, or there will always be a large skill gap.

How does having less skilled players in a league encourage foreigners to do better?

The opposite is surely more true.
Slayers_MMA The terran who beats terrans
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
August 12 2011 08:39 GMT
#89
It's good to see that you can't buy tournament quality with money...
NASL should fix the conditions for the players first. How can they think it's ok for the players to play at 4AM over 3 months?
NASL Grand Finals' production was poor over all, they don't have that much prestige I think.
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 08:40 GMT
#90
On August 12 2011 17:34 Pwnographics wrote:
Long story short; NASL treated Koreans badly in the first NASL season. Many Koreans had to stay up to the whee hours of the morning to play matches for 3 months straight whereas the matches could be easily better scheduled like the TSL3.

The Korean association spoke on behalf of all the Korean players that they wanted an improvement for all Koreans - they didn't just want the winner to benefit but the community as a whole.

NASL could not meet their demands.

Koreans will not be participating, which means the NASL is now similar to the IPL except with worse production value.


And having to pay for HQ and VODs. Which is probably the main issue when comparing NASL to IPL, since NASL's production and quality of games probably wont be as good as MLG and GSL.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 08:41 GMT
#91
On August 12 2011 17:35 Phayze wrote:
I actually like that the Korean teams do not want to participate in the NASL. It's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. Fees like this encourage foreign players to do better. For foreign e-sports to grow, these players need to be able to support themselves just to be able to match the same practice regime the koreans have. Until that happens Foreigners will always be worse than koreans. Sure, you can say I dont want Koreans to play because they will win. And that is partially true, but I dont want Koreans to win right now, or there will always be a large skill gap.


If it's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE why does it have Europeans, South Americans, and SEA playing in it?
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
August 12 2011 08:41 GMT
#92
On August 12 2011 17:18 bearhug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:31 Adebisi wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:25 EchoZ wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean


Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't?

GOM was expecting Foreigners to come over and play in a $1500 qualification tournament that spanned a month.

NASL is having Koreans come for a shot at $50,000 over 3 days. (after playing in 10 weeks of online play)

Do you see how these two things are different?

NASL is obviously also a start up, I think what NASL offered while probably not ideal for some of the smaller Korean teams, I don't think its right that SC2Con comes in and declares them all out :/. Feels like the equivalent of eSports protectionism lol.

Either way TYVM for the translations, very interesting.


$50,000 over 3 days? No No No. NASL lasts for 3 months. For 3 months, you have to get up at 4am a few time a week, and may end up earning nothing (fail to qualify for the finals, and you get $0) after nearly 3 months. Even if you enter the finals, there are 16 players competing for the $40000 ( and only one can get that amount of money); 90% of chance you will get $`1000 or $1500.

3 months, 95% of chance of getting only $1000 - 1500. Think about it, dude.

In a word, the key here is 3 months.


Oh, be fair. It's one best of three a week, for 9 weeks before a three day, 16 man LAN tournament.

So a maximum of 27 to 33 games (including possibly the playoffs). Not ideal, but it's basically like going through the MLG bracket but spread over a longer period of time for much higher prize money.

It's not like theyre playing for three months solid.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
August 12 2011 08:43 GMT
#93
On August 12 2011 17:36 cheesemaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:35 Phayze wrote:
I actually like that the Korean teams do not want to participate in the NASL. It's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. Fees like this encourage foreign players to do better. For foreign e-sports to grow, these players need to be able to support themselves just to be able to match the same practice regime the koreans have. Until that happens Foreigners will always be worse than koreans. Sure, you can say I dont want Koreans to play because they will win. And that is partially true, but I dont want Koreans to win right now, or there will always be a large skill gap.

How does having less skilled players in a league encourage foreigners to do better?

The opposite is surely more true.

because there s bigger money up for grabs, with the top koreans there you could aim for a lower place at best. This way the really best foreigners compete for a lot more, and the mid tier foreign pros can aim for a smaller prize, which previously was taken by top foreigner or lower tier korean.
If i was a competitor i d be really happy
In fact, i am happy as a viewer
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
August 12 2011 08:44 GMT
#94
On August 12 2011 17:26 W2 wrote:
This seems like an argument between team managers and NASL, the players just got caught in between, and suffer because of it.

From the looks of the negotiations, SC2 Conf does NOT support players rights. It represents more of the manager's interest. Which is natural because it consists of only one player, all the rest are coaches/managers.

If it were not for this council laying down the law, I am sure there would still be players willing to make the trip, and accept the $2000 stipend. However, instead of allowing each player to make their own decision, the team managers decided to band together and make the decision for everyone.

Normal person: Learns about a tournament, weighs costs and benefits, decides not to go.

Cunning person: Learns about a tournament, weights costs and benefits, decides not to go, then convinces everyone else not to go in the slight chance that it may come back to benefit him.


This is how collective bargaining works. Think of the NFL and NBA disputes between the players union and the owners recently
BackSideAttack
Profile Joined December 2010
1103 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:47:07
August 12 2011 08:46 GMT
#95
On August 12 2011 17:35 Phayze wrote:
I actually like that the Korean teams do not want to participate in the NASL. It's the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. Fees like this encourage foreign players to do better. For foreign e-sports to grow, these players need to be able to support themselves just to be able to match the same practice regime the koreans have. Until that happens Foreigners will always be worse than koreans. Sure, you can say I dont want Koreans to play because they will win. And that is partially true, but I dont want Koreans to win right now, or there will always be a large skill gap.


NORTH AMERICAN =/= FOREIGNER

Foreigner = EVERYONE not Korean, includes Taiwan and Europe

North American = U.S. and Canada

Don't cite the tournament's name if your going to use it to justify European and Taiwanese participation.
dtz
Profile Joined September 2010
5834 Posts
August 12 2011 08:46 GMT
#96
On August 12 2011 17:18 Azzur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:03 snafoo wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:42 Azzur wrote:
I bring you a statement by Mr Chae, head of GOM, who is also part of the SC2Con:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225324
Chae Jung Won, the head of GomTV manage team "Can't understand foreigner's rejection"

GSL Super Tournament begins in coming May 23rd with top 64 GSL point rankers.
Super tournament has made issues by making competition of both code A and code S players, but unfortunately many foreigners, except Chris 'Huk' Loranger and Jonathan 'Jinro' Walsh, has rejected invitations.

Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."

PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."

The prize of participating World Championship was about 3,000,000 Won. (about 2700 USD) But in Super Tournament, if you qualify RO32 you will be guaranteed to have 1,000,000 Won. (about 900 USD) Of course you can't be sure until you hear from players, the prize pool , the chance of winning the tournament, and the travel cost are the most probable reason to reject invitation.

In fact, Dmytro 'Dimaga' Filipchuk spoke during the interview after World Championship that "It is very difficult to stay in Korea for long term since I have a girl friend and family. There are many online tournaments in Europe. That is why playing in Europe is much better choice for me."

Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S."

About question of making barrier for players in code A to promote in code S through Up and Down match, he said "The ability of player is what they can make win in Up and Down match. If you lose your Up and Down match, then you can't advance to code S. But we made change so winner of code A can advance without Up and Down match."

Written by: Lee Si Woo (siwoo@playxp.com)

(C) PlayXP

The money that a player earns for even making to the ro32 of the ST is LESS than what the teams would get from qualifying for the NASL finals and Mr Chae "Can't understand foreigner's rejection".

There are certainly valid reasons for non-NASL participation but to blame it on travel fees smacks of double standards.

On the flip-side, I didn't appreciate NASL's hostile stance on the matter and their slow handling of money.

Still, I believe NASL is going to struggle to survive without the koreans.


SC2Con is a player/team related thing, I don't know why you're quoting something from a GOM employee who isn't actually part of SC2Con -_-

Mr Chae is part of SC2Con.

In NASL's official statement:
Show nested quote +
In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties].




According to NASL , Mr Chae and GSL is only the middleman and has nothing to do with this decision . He is just there probably because of the language barrier or due to his good relationship with both sides ( foreigners and koreans).

stalife
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada1222 Posts
August 12 2011 08:50 GMT
#97
ouch, the non-translated parts are pretty harsh
www.memoryexpress.com
iCanada
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10660 Posts
August 12 2011 08:50 GMT
#98
The thing that I love about all of this, is Koreans were insulted about Foriegners not willing to go through unforvorable conditions (IE paying to fly to Korea, live in GOM house with no practice partners, spend a month sitting on their thumbs in a tournament with a prize pool not even worth their plane ticket...) using phrases like "Koreans have the pride to make sacrifices to come play at the biggest stage, to gain the most fame, to have the most success."

Yet now there is a tournament with the money and viewership greater than that of GOMs and they aren't willing to go despite being guaranteed to atleast make money on the venture should they qualify for the finals.

I thought the best Koreans would brave through it and take risks to be the best?

Hypocrisy at its best.
Govou
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1072 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:52:44
August 12 2011 08:50 GMT
#99
On August 12 2011 17:50 stalife wrote:
ouch, the non-translated parts are pretty harsh


indeed. I'm not touching that one until someone else does lol
aebriol
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway2066 Posts
August 12 2011 08:51 GMT
#100
Koreans just figured out the league is worthless if they can just end up in the final without playing through it.
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
August 12 2011 08:51 GMT
#101
On August 12 2011 17:44 Klogon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:26 W2 wrote:
This seems like an argument between team managers and NASL, the players just got caught in between, and suffer because of it.

From the looks of the negotiations, SC2 Conf does NOT support players rights. It represents more of the manager's interest. Which is natural because it consists of only one player, all the rest are coaches/managers.

If it were not for this council laying down the law, I am sure there would still be players willing to make the trip, and accept the $2000 stipend. However, instead of allowing each player to make their own decision, the team managers decided to band together and make the decision for everyone.

Normal person: Learns about a tournament, weighs costs and benefits, decides not to go.

Cunning person: Learns about a tournament, weights costs and benefits, decides not to go, then convinces everyone else not to go in the slight chance that it may come back to benefit him.


This is how collective bargaining works. Think of the NFL and NBA disputes between the players union and the owners recently

Players get to have input, that's why so many player reps go to meetings during lockouts.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
August 12 2011 08:51 GMT
#102
On August 12 2011 17:50 stalife wrote:
ouch, the non-translated parts are pretty harsh

then translate it please, if you are able, i d figure everybody would like to know it
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Govou
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1072 Posts
August 12 2011 08:52 GMT
#103
On August 12 2011 17:50 iCanada wrote:
The thing that I love about all of this, is Koreans were insulted about Foriegners not willing to go through unforvorable conditions (IE paying to fly to Korea, live in GOM house with no practice partners, spend a month sitting on their thumbs in a tournament with a prize pool not even worth their plane ticket...) using phrases like "Koreans have the pride to make sacrifices to come play at the biggest stage, to gain the most fame, to have the most success."

Yet now there is a tournament with the money and viewership greater than that of GOMs and they aren't willing to go despite being guaranteed to atleast make money on the venture should they qualify for the finals.

I thought the best Koreans would brave through it and take risks to be the best?

Hypocrisy at its best.


GOM and GSL were not involved in this. Was cleared up by NASL and everyone else about fifty times already.
UniversalMind
Profile Joined March 2011
United States326 Posts
August 12 2011 08:54 GMT
#104
you did a really good job

thanks for translating
iCanada
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10660 Posts
August 12 2011 08:55 GMT
#105
On August 12 2011 17:52 Govou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:50 iCanada wrote:
The thing that I love about all of this, is Koreans were insulted about Foriegners not willing to go through unforvorable conditions (IE paying to fly to Korea, live in GOM house with no practice partners, spend a month sitting on their thumbs in a tournament with a prize pool not even worth their plane ticket...) using phrases like "Koreans have the pride to make sacrifices to come play at the biggest stage, to gain the most fame, to have the most success."

Yet now there is a tournament with the money and viewership greater than that of GOMs and they aren't willing to go despite being guaranteed to atleast make money on the venture should they qualify for the finals.

I thought the best Koreans would brave through it and take risks to be the best?

Hypocrisy at its best.


GOM and GSL were not involved in this. Was cleared up by NASL and everyone else about fifty times already.

Is Mr Chae (the manager of GSL) not the head of SC2Con?
Fionn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States23455 Posts
August 12 2011 08:55 GMT
#106
On August 12 2011 17:24 vertical101 wrote:
Korean is really good taking foreign money(prize+this shit). this unfair for western-programer.
top 10 of prizemoney is korean, next thing we know they want to eat us aLive. they should have been happy from what they have. and think for foreigner player too. korean get special treatment in foreign tournaments.


What? Korean players make the most money because they're the best players. GSL has given many spots to foreigners. If they were good enough, they would win two matches in Code A and then get up into Code S. So far out of the countless people who were given spots, only Huk made it into Code S and is very stable in his position at the moment.

The finals of the NASL weren't crowded with Koreans because they got special treatment. They were just plain better. Sen is Taiwanese and he didn't get special treatment by getting 3rd place; he just played very, very well.

GSL wants foreigners to come play. They want them to succeed in Code A and join Huk in Code S. They're basically doing everything they can to try and make it easier for foreigners to have a chance to make it in. The only thing I can think of would be giving the top placing foreigner at MLG a direct Code S spot, but then you have the side where Koreans are mad because they have to fight tooth and nail just to get into Code A.

Writerhttps://twitter.com/FionnOnFire
xBillehx
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States1289 Posts
August 12 2011 08:58 GMT
#107
On August 12 2011 17:55 iCanada wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:52 Govou wrote:
On August 12 2011 17:50 iCanada wrote:
The thing that I love about all of this, is Koreans were insulted about Foriegners not willing to go through unforvorable conditions (IE paying to fly to Korea, live in GOM house with no practice partners, spend a month sitting on their thumbs in a tournament with a prize pool not even worth their plane ticket...) using phrases like "Koreans have the pride to make sacrifices to come play at the biggest stage, to gain the most fame, to have the most success."

Yet now there is a tournament with the money and viewership greater than that of GOMs and they aren't willing to go despite being guaranteed to atleast make money on the venture should they qualify for the finals.

I thought the best Koreans would brave through it and take risks to be the best?

Hypocrisy at its best.


GOM and GSL were not involved in this. Was cleared up by NASL and everyone else about fifty times already.

Is Mr Chae (the manager of GSL) not the head of SC2Con?

No he's not. It used to be the coach of StarTale before he stepped down, not sure who sits at the top right now.
Taengoo ♥
DystopiaX
Profile Joined October 2010
United States16236 Posts
August 12 2011 09:00 GMT
#108
On August 12 2011 17:51 Serpico wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:44 Klogon wrote:
On August 12 2011 17:26 W2 wrote:
This seems like an argument between team managers and NASL, the players just got caught in between, and suffer because of it.

From the looks of the negotiations, SC2 Conf does NOT support players rights. It represents more of the manager's interest. Which is natural because it consists of only one player, all the rest are coaches/managers.

If it were not for this council laying down the law, I am sure there would still be players willing to make the trip, and accept the $2000 stipend. However, instead of allowing each player to make their own decision, the team managers decided to band together and make the decision for everyone.

Normal person: Learns about a tournament, weighs costs and benefits, decides not to go.

Cunning person: Learns about a tournament, weights costs and benefits, decides not to go, then convinces everyone else not to go in the slight chance that it may come back to benefit him.


This is how collective bargaining works. Think of the NFL and NBA disputes between the players union and the owners recently

Players get to have input, that's why so many player reps go to meetings during lockouts.

At the same time it makes sense the managers are taking the lead since it seems that they're the ones who have to worry about the team's expenses, and in the end they're the ones who have to find the budget for the NASL travel expenses.
zeru
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
8156 Posts
August 12 2011 09:02 GMT
#109
--- Nuked ---
FarbrorAbavna
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden4856 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 09:06:45
August 12 2011 09:05 GMT
#110
If this is from a legit source then meh, doesnt change anything from NASL's statement. Koreans dont wanna come, fine. Expecting tournament organizers to pay for everything practically making it a free trip and all from a tournament that is just starting it's second season is silly. If anything I feel for NASL having to go through everything that comes with having to reschedule, new artwork and what not to get in the players that will be replacing the ones who have dropped out.
Do you really want chat rooms?
shell
Profile Joined October 2010
Portugal2722 Posts
August 12 2011 09:07 GMT
#111
If they don't want to play it's their problem.. many of them wouldn't even make it to playoffs and demanding more then 2000$ when they are always taken care by the foreign events way more then foreign teams.. Do they know that no foreigner get more then 500$ for nasl and don't get any special treatment for MLG, dreamhack etc.. ?

They might be the best but then don't have to be rude and lowclass..


This all situation is bad for the Koreans.. and for me if the league only gets like 10 koreans that are from foreign teams or FXO it will be a much better tournament then GSL2!

BENFICA || Besties: idra, Stephano, Nestea, Jaedong, Serral, Jinro, Scarlett || Zerg <3
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
August 12 2011 09:08 GMT
#112
On August 12 2011 18:00 DystopiaX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:51 Serpico wrote:
On August 12 2011 17:44 Klogon wrote:
On August 12 2011 17:26 W2 wrote:
This seems like an argument between team managers and NASL, the players just got caught in between, and suffer because of it.

From the looks of the negotiations, SC2 Conf does NOT support players rights. It represents more of the manager's interest. Which is natural because it consists of only one player, all the rest are coaches/managers.

If it were not for this council laying down the law, I am sure there would still be players willing to make the trip, and accept the $2000 stipend. However, instead of allowing each player to make their own decision, the team managers decided to band together and make the decision for everyone.

Normal person: Learns about a tournament, weighs costs and benefits, decides not to go.

Cunning person: Learns about a tournament, weights costs and benefits, decides not to go, then convinces everyone else not to go in the slight chance that it may come back to benefit him.


This is how collective bargaining works. Think of the NFL and NBA disputes between the players union and the owners recently

Players get to have input, that's why so many player reps go to meetings during lockouts.

At the same time it makes sense the managers are taking the lead since it seems that they're the ones who have to worry about the team's expenses, and in the end they're the ones who have to find the budget for the NASL travel expenses.

Nope, not necessarily, they could chose to allow the players to decide whether they want to invest in this or not from their own pocket. This way it s forbidden to everybody, even who are content to deal with the problems in the light of those couple 10k dollars

I d put my neck on it, that some Korean players are really unhappy whit this decisiong
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
havox_
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany442 Posts
August 12 2011 09:09 GMT
#113
On August 12 2011 17:27 bearhug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:21 havox_ wrote:
At least the press releases bascially say the same, so noone made up a story...

a) It's just a different view on things what a league should do for their stars (yes, the league is worthless without the players) etc. This is what happens when these different cultures and esport scenes start working together, nothing too dramatic imho.

b) The Koreans dont like the playing conditions, which is understandable - yet they knew about that before the start of the league.


I'm sure we will see less and less of such stupid problems in the future - especially when the Korean teams will finally manage to get some sponsors (or are bought by Western teams^^).


You misunderstand it. The biggest problem is that 3 months too long, not to mention that they have to get up early in the morning for each match.

Thats what I (and they) mean with playing conditions... (btw: its 3 months, but just 9 matches... so that should actually not be huge problem).

I still dont think that this is their biggest problem, they talk about the money much more than about this problem... but who knows, all these translations etc...
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
August 12 2011 09:11 GMT
#114
Makes sense... you'd think they'd give the players a little more allowance, but whatever -.-
Govou
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1072 Posts
August 12 2011 09:11 GMT
#115
On August 12 2011 18:02 zeru wrote:
Anyone willing to sum up or translate the 2nd part of OP please?


ill paraphrase it

there are alot of tournaments and opportunities around world but players need to approach them w/ bit of care.

NASL had a great idea but what they have shown so far was nothing but 'promise' from players perspective.

NASL should pay up first and sc2con decided against korean teams participating in NASL
vertical101
Profile Joined April 2011
Hong Kong311 Posts
August 12 2011 09:12 GMT
#116
On August 12 2011 17:55 Fionn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:24 vertical101 wrote:
Korean is really good taking foreign money(prize+this shit). this unfair for western-programer.
top 10 of prizemoney is korean, next thing we know they want to eat us aLive. they should have been happy from what they have. and think for foreigner player too. korean get special treatment in foreign tournaments.


What? Korean players make the most money because they're the best players. GSL has given many spots to foreigners. If they were good enough, they would win two matches in Code A and then get up into Code S. So far out of the countless people who were given spots, only Huk made it into Code S and is very stable in his position at the moment.

The finals of the NASL weren't crowded with Koreans because they got special treatment. They were just plain better. Sen is Taiwanese and he didn't get special treatment by getting 3rd place; he just played very, very well.

GSL wants foreigners to come play. They want them to succeed in Code A and join Huk in Code S. They're basically doing everything they can to try and make it easier for foreigners to have a chance to make it in. The only thing I can think of would be giving the top placing foreigner at MLG a direct Code S spot, but then you have the side where Koreans are mad because they have to fight tooth and nail just to get into Code A.


im talking about foreigner players playing in foreigner tournaments and not getting equal treatment same as with korean e.g MLG,etc..

HaRxTears
Profile Joined January 2011
141 Posts
August 12 2011 09:12 GMT
#117
Wy the fck should NASL pay their lodging fees and meals etc...wtf. The leagues outside Korea are giving the koreans to much fcking service. The people from europe also only get like 500 dollar travel stipend -_-. Leagues should STOP sugarcoating the koreans unless you have something like MLG where it goes both ways. Its getting retarded nowadays.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 09:14 GMT
#118
On August 12 2011 17:46 dtz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:18 Azzur wrote:
On August 12 2011 17:03 snafoo wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:42 Azzur wrote:
I bring you a statement by Mr Chae, head of GOM, who is also part of the SC2Con:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225324
Chae Jung Won, the head of GomTV manage team "Can't understand foreigner's rejection"

GSL Super Tournament begins in coming May 23rd with top 64 GSL point rankers.
Super tournament has made issues by making competition of both code A and code S players, but unfortunately many foreigners, except Chris 'Huk' Loranger and Jonathan 'Jinro' Walsh, has rejected invitations.

Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."

PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."

The prize of participating World Championship was about 3,000,000 Won. (about 2700 USD) But in Super Tournament, if you qualify RO32 you will be guaranteed to have 1,000,000 Won. (about 900 USD) Of course you can't be sure until you hear from players, the prize pool , the chance of winning the tournament, and the travel cost are the most probable reason to reject invitation.

In fact, Dmytro 'Dimaga' Filipchuk spoke during the interview after World Championship that "It is very difficult to stay in Korea for long term since I have a girl friend and family. There are many online tournaments in Europe. That is why playing in Europe is much better choice for me."

Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S."

About question of making barrier for players in code A to promote in code S through Up and Down match, he said "The ability of player is what they can make win in Up and Down match. If you lose your Up and Down match, then you can't advance to code S. But we made change so winner of code A can advance without Up and Down match."

Written by: Lee Si Woo (siwoo@playxp.com)

(C) PlayXP

The money that a player earns for even making to the ro32 of the ST is LESS than what the teams would get from qualifying for the NASL finals and Mr Chae "Can't understand foreigner's rejection".

There are certainly valid reasons for non-NASL participation but to blame it on travel fees smacks of double standards.

On the flip-side, I didn't appreciate NASL's hostile stance on the matter and their slow handling of money.

Still, I believe NASL is going to struggle to survive without the koreans.


SC2Con is a player/team related thing, I don't know why you're quoting something from a GOM employee who isn't actually part of SC2Con -_-

Mr Chae is part of SC2Con.

In NASL's official statement:
In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties].




According to NASL , Mr Chae and GSL is only the middleman and has nothing to do with this decision . He is just there probably because of the language barrier or due to his good relationship with both sides ( foreigners and koreans).


If this is the case - if Mr Chae has no part in SC2Con, I stand corrected then and I apologise for the misleading quote.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 09:15:54
August 12 2011 09:14 GMT
#119
I honestly dont think its reasonable from the Korean side. Yes, it sucks they dont have the sponsors to send them to this event but the rules are the same for everyone...

Agreeing to play and then pulling out is shitty, if it had been a disagreement from the first step it wouldnt have been an issue at all....

I *do* think NASL should pay full flight costs for everyone who qualifies for the final, but thats unrelated to this.

On August 12 2011 18:12 HaRxTears wrote:
Wy the fck should NASL pay their lodging fees and meals etc...wtf. The leagues outside Korea are giving the koreans to much fcking service. The people from europe also only get like 500 dollar travel stipend -_-. Leagues should STOP sugarcoating the koreans unless you have something like MLG where it goes both ways. Its getting retarded nowadays.

Its a bit of a difference in culture I would guess - Korean and Chinese events usually pay for the travel & accomodation I think.

Like, CPL paid for tickets and hotel and some meals etc (but they only paid for flights within asia).
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Neptuneajax
Profile Joined April 2009
Australia206 Posts
August 12 2011 09:14 GMT
#120
Wow. A game, barely a year old, already with all the drama of a game 13 years old.
Sneakyz
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden2361 Posts
August 12 2011 09:15 GMT
#121
I'm kind of curious how 1500 $(if you include the prizepool change) can't be enough to cover the expenses of a few days in the US. That's about the same as my brother spent at travel and food for a week at the canary islands.
I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds.
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 09:18:24
August 12 2011 09:17 GMT
#122
On August 12 2011 18:00 DystopiaX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:51 Serpico wrote:
On August 12 2011 17:44 Klogon wrote:
On August 12 2011 17:26 W2 wrote:
This seems like an argument between team managers and NASL, the players just got caught in between, and suffer because of it.

From the looks of the negotiations, SC2 Conf does NOT support players rights. It represents more of the manager's interest. Which is natural because it consists of only one player, all the rest are coaches/managers.

If it were not for this council laying down the law, I am sure there would still be players willing to make the trip, and accept the $2000 stipend. However, instead of allowing each player to make their own decision, the team managers decided to band together and make the decision for everyone.

Normal person: Learns about a tournament, weighs costs and benefits, decides not to go.

Cunning person: Learns about a tournament, weights costs and benefits, decides not to go, then convinces everyone else not to go in the slight chance that it may come back to benefit him.


This is how collective bargaining works. Think of the NFL and NBA disputes between the players union and the owners recently

Players get to have input, that's why so many player reps go to meetings during lockouts.

At the same time it makes sense the managers are taking the lead since it seems that they're the ones who have to worry about the team's expenses, and in the end they're the ones who have to find the budget for the NASL travel expenses.

But if a player wants to pay for themselves and theres no conflicts, why would a team stop them?
Govou
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1072 Posts
August 12 2011 09:18 GMT
#123
On August 12 2011 18:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I honestly dont think its reasonable from the Korean side. Yes, it sucks they dont have the sponsors to send them to this event but the rules are the same for everyone...

Agreeing to play and then pulling out is shitty, if it had been a disagreement from the first step it wouldnt have been an issue at all....

I *do* think NASL should pay full flight costs for everyone who qualifies for the final, but thats unrelated to this.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:12 HaRxTears wrote:
Wy the fck should NASL pay their lodging fees and meals etc...wtf. The leagues outside Korea are giving the koreans to much fcking service. The people from europe also only get like 500 dollar travel stipend -_-. Leagues should STOP sugarcoating the koreans unless you have something like MLG where it goes both ways. Its getting retarded nowadays.

Its a bit of a difference in culture I would guess - Korean and Chinese events usually pay for the travel & accomodation I think.

Like, CPL paid for tickets and hotel and some meals etc (but they only paid for flights within asia).


What I heard from Mr. Chae is that they never finished the negotiation but NASL went ahead with filming. Therefore they've never really reached an agreement to play at all.
Kerm
Profile Joined April 2010
France467 Posts
August 12 2011 09:19 GMT
#124
On August 12 2011 18:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I honestly dont think its reasonable from the Korean side. Yes, it sucks they dont have the sponsors to send them to this event but the rules are the same for everyone...

Agreeing to play and then pulling out is shitty, if it had been a disagreement from the first step it wouldnt have been an issue at all....

I *do* think NASL should pay full flight costs for everyone who qualifies for the final, but thats unrelated to this.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:12 HaRxTears wrote:
Wy the fck should NASL pay their lodging fees and meals etc...wtf. The leagues outside Korea are giving the koreans to much fcking service. The people from europe also only get like 500 dollar travel stipend -_-. Leagues should STOP sugarcoating the koreans unless you have something like MLG where it goes both ways. Its getting retarded nowadays.

Its a bit of a difference in culture I would guess - Korean and Chinese events usually pay for the travel & accomodation I think.

Like, CPL paid for tickets and hotel and some meals etc (but they only paid for flights within asia).


yeah but don't you think there's just constraint on both sides here ?
I mean Korean SC2 Teams are supposed to be low on sponsor-money, thus they probably can't really afford the travel.
And NASL is probably quite tight on budget, so can't really fly the Koreans in either.
There is just not ehough money on either side.

I agree however that waiting the last minute is not the best way to behave.
What i know is that I know nothing - [http://twitter.com/UncleKerm]
ProxyKnoxy
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2576 Posts
August 12 2011 09:21 GMT
#125
I've always thought NASL had a pretty horrible format... for the Koreans, 3 months of games and waking up at ridiculous times, just to have a small chance of going to the Grand Final, and in BoxeR's case, only winning $500 I believe.

It's simple to see why Koreans don't want to compete in it
"Zealot try give mariners high five. Mariners not like high five and try hide and shoot zealot"
BuddhaMonk
Profile Joined August 2010
781 Posts
August 12 2011 09:21 GMT
#126
On August 12 2011 16:50 sleepingdog wrote:
so, by logic, GSL should pay every western pro-gamer all travel-expenses and lodging in korea when they want to play in GSL? seriously?

Also, the security-posit-argument is ridiculous - something like that is completely, like 100% common in every business contract "outside" esports. You can't ensure performance of your counterpart, therefore you demand money to have leverage.

I have never been against koreans joining the NASL, but if they feel mistreated and make strange demands I won't miss them and enjoy their play in GSL and to some extent MLG instead.


They're talking about the players who qualify for the finals, not every player. The comparison to the GSL would be the MLG players who qualify for GSL, which GOMTV does actually pay for their travel and lodging.

The fact is, it's very common for tournaments to pay for travel and lodging for players who qualify for a tournament finals. This is different from a player who is going through an open bracket or qualifier. Generally there's not many players in the finals of a given tournament, and one could maybe fault NASL's model a bit here (use less players in the finals), so the travel expense is reasonable and worthwhile given that there's nothing worse than a player qualifying for the finals and not showing up.
stalife
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada1222 Posts
August 12 2011 09:22 GMT
#127
Perhaps my Korean is a little bit sloppy now, but the way I read it, it was something along these lines:

Korean progamers are professional gamers, so they should be playing in professional tournaments, not amateur tournaments.. (like NASL I assume? it wasn't said directly, but I think it was implied..)

The statement also suggested NASL's model so far has been use top players to bring in the viewers, while NASL makes all the money.

Then lastly, the statement said NASL should either quit, or step up their game with proper management that aligns with standards of top professional players

Again, my Korean's pretty sloppy, and maybe I read it wrong. But that was what I read.. :D
www.memoryexpress.com
Usagi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Spain1647 Posts
August 12 2011 09:30 GMT
#128
You either pull down your pants the way that MLG does to their invites, or the Koreans dont want to be with you.
To hell with those teams taht whine, seriously, they compare NASL with korean amateur tournaments, and still they withdraw on the last minute.
iCanada
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10660 Posts
August 12 2011 09:32 GMT
#129
On August 12 2011 18:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I honestly dont think its reasonable from the Korean side. Yes, it sucks they dont have the sponsors to send them to this event but the rules are the same for everyone...

Agreeing to play and then pulling out is shitty, if it had been a disagreement from the first step it wouldnt have been an issue at all....

I *do* think NASL should pay full flight costs for everyone who qualifies for the final, but thats unrelated to this.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:12 HaRxTears wrote:
Wy the fck should NASL pay their lodging fees and meals etc...wtf. The leagues outside Korea are giving the koreans to much fcking service. The people from europe also only get like 500 dollar travel stipend -_-. Leagues should STOP sugarcoating the koreans unless you have something like MLG where it goes both ways. Its getting retarded nowadays.

Its a bit of a difference in culture I would guess - Korean and Chinese events usually pay for the travel & accomodation I think.

Like, CPL paid for tickets and hotel and some meals etc (but they only paid for flights within asia).


How do the oGs players feel about SC2Con's decision?
TheSilverfox
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden1928 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 09:33:10
August 12 2011 09:32 GMT
#130
What people don't really get here is that $1000 or $2000 does not cover flight expenses and lodging at all for a player. It costs a lot more.

To get this straight - this is what a player from Korea invests in cost and time. This assuming that the final event will be held at a good place like for instance Ontario.

  • 9 matches played during the middle of the night
  • 4-5 days of no practice and flight time to participate in the tournament.
  • Appr. $1000-1500 in flight costs. (If the final are held in a place like Raleigh for instance the flight costs go up to $2500)
  • Lodging. $400-500
  • Extra costs for food and airport shuttle etc.


As you can see the costs are easily $2000 ($3000 if NASL choose a bad place for finals). Still with the NASL offer they would still pay $1000 for each player.

Travel and lodging costs. That's a reason why MLG is not flooded with talented Europeans because it's not worth it to go to MLG for a $5000 maximum prize money when it costs so much.

If I were the manager of a Korean team and had MC in my team, I would pay for this investment, but at the same time I can understand their point.
Also known as Joinsimon on Twitter/Reddit
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
August 12 2011 09:33 GMT
#131
this is what google translate says:

Recently Korea successively overseas players teams are England and has participated in numerous international competitions. However, a more cautious approach is needed for it. Korea, as in the case of NASL players that can deliver the best content is a good means of making money. Korea, the players, but they use their money and just pay for does not.



Bear TV players overseas in Korea and South Korea's outstanding overseas players for the variety of activities are conducted in conjunction with the program. MLG Columbus, MLG Anaheim, followed the course of Raleigh MLG MLG is a typical mid-August, the IEM is also scheduled to take place.



International tournament for players to experience a wider world with players from abroad an opportunity to win an absolute must compete for. But I do not forget the fact that a pro, amateur competitions such as the decision to give up boldly exhibit is required.



NASL second season of the year $ 1.1 million (KRW 108 million won), season, $ 2.1 million, $ 3.2 million season (KRW 216 million won), and total prize money, $ 400,000 (KRW 400 million 32 million won), and under the world's top class "Starcraft 2> invited players will create competition, he said. But until now, their behavior showed that the best players in the world utilize these 'tricks of the NASL players faking two beolgetda money "is nothing more than a hunch.



Finally, the NASL lose out to run for Congress even now, the best players in the world expected from the phase that exhibited shape and Congress want to show the operation.



On the other hand, NASL players lined up on Season 1 were not paid the deposit yet, has not paid cash, too. In addition, South Korea Teams FXOKorea recently merged with FXOpen except for the NASL Season 2 All teams and players decided not to exhibit at.
ineq
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden376 Posts
August 12 2011 09:35 GMT
#132
I'm almost willing to go as far as to say that it is slightly disgusting how Korean proteams expect everything to be handed to them on a silver plate. $1k is ALOT to invest, it's $16k for every finals event that they hand out to the players, in addition to their huge prizepool. Koreans are thinking to highly of themselves. Guess it's from their BroodWar background. *waving hands* SC2 is not Korean BW!

Teams should invest in sending their players to events, they get TONS of exposure, especially the Koreans, who most of the times plague the top positions with their presence.
HerO - iNcontroL - DeMusliM - TaeJa - JaeDong
alexhard
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden317 Posts
August 12 2011 09:38 GMT
#133
On August 12 2011 18:35 ineq wrote:
I'm almost willing to go as far as to say that it is slightly disgusting how Korean proteams expect everything to be handed to them on a silver plate. $1k is ALOT to invest, it's $16k for every finals event that they hand out to the players, in addition to their huge prizepool. Koreans are thinking to highly of themselves. Guess it's from their BroodWar background. *waving hands* SC2 is not Korean BW!

Teams should invest in sending their players to events, they get TONS of exposure, especially the Koreans, who most of the times plague the top positions with their presence.


They are the best and most popular players in the world. MLG went from nothing to superstars with the GOM agreement (just look at the "recordbraking viewers" after each MLG lately). Simply put, they have sufficient leverage for this sort of request. It's the same reason F1 teams get a larger cut of the broadcast money the higher they place in the manufacturer's championship.
Govou
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1072 Posts
August 12 2011 09:38 GMT
#134
On August 12 2011 18:35 ineq wrote:
I'm almost willing to go as far as to say that it is slightly disgusting how Korean proteams expect everything to be handed to them on a silver plate. $1k is ALOT to invest, it's $16k for every finals event that they hand out to the players, in addition to their huge prizepool. Koreans are thinking to highly of themselves. Guess it's from their BroodWar background. *waving hands* SC2 is not Korean BW!

Teams should invest in sending their players to events, they get TONS of exposure, especially the Koreans, who most of the times plague the top positions with their presence.


you are right. 1k is alot to invest.

to both side.

Why should korean team should be participating then? Especially knowing they haven't been happy with the conditions and the fact that they havent recieved the money from season 1 yet.
insaneMicro
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany761 Posts
August 12 2011 09:39 GMT
#135
Quite honestly, the Koreans seem to feel pretty entitled. If you're a professional team, you should be expected to pay for your players' travel expenses yourself, especially if you send them to sucha huge tournament.
I guess it's their loss, what with the 100k for third season etc.
"Damn I played some fine Zerg right there". -Fruitdealer
centinel4
Profile Joined April 2011
Austria50 Posts
August 12 2011 09:50 GMT
#136
To make a comparison to european football UEFA. There should be a central organizations with representatives of every major tournament (at this point ESL, NASL, MLG, GSL among others i might miss) like the UEFA in europe to organize all european leagues.
Coordinate schedules of major events. and play these locally (tournaments for only americans, only europeans and only koreans). then once a month or 2 months play a Champions League, where the top 4 of each league compete. Maybe in europe (more central for everyone unless u are in the West US coast).
I think something like WSCF (World Starcraft Federation) should exist in order to make SC global. otherwise that will not happen or at least not in a large scale.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
August 12 2011 09:50 GMT
#137
On August 12 2011 18:19 Kerm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I honestly dont think its reasonable from the Korean side. Yes, it sucks they dont have the sponsors to send them to this event but the rules are the same for everyone...

Agreeing to play and then pulling out is shitty, if it had been a disagreement from the first step it wouldnt have been an issue at all....

I *do* think NASL should pay full flight costs for everyone who qualifies for the final, but thats unrelated to this.

On August 12 2011 18:12 HaRxTears wrote:
Wy the fck should NASL pay their lodging fees and meals etc...wtf. The leagues outside Korea are giving the koreans to much fcking service. The people from europe also only get like 500 dollar travel stipend -_-. Leagues should STOP sugarcoating the koreans unless you have something like MLG where it goes both ways. Its getting retarded nowadays.

Its a bit of a difference in culture I would guess - Korean and Chinese events usually pay for the travel & accomodation I think.

Like, CPL paid for tickets and hotel and some meals etc (but they only paid for flights within asia).


yeah but don't you think there's just constraint on both sides here ?
I mean Korean SC2 Teams are supposed to be low on sponsor-money, thus they probably can't really afford the travel.
And NASL is probably quite tight on budget, so can't really fly the Koreans in either.
There is just not ehough money on either side.

I agree however that waiting the last minute is not the best way to behave.


NASL is not low on money, they have an incredibly prize pool. During the finals (mainly the first day, second day onwards got rid of plenty of the problems), half of the people were moaning why not reduce the prize pool and increase the production value.
Deleted User 47542
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1484 Posts
August 12 2011 09:51 GMT
#138
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T
shockaslim
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1104 Posts
August 12 2011 09:51 GMT
#139
On August 12 2011 18:33 JustPassingBy wrote:
this is what google translate says:

Recently Korea successively overseas players teams are England and has participated in numerous international competitions. However, a more cautious approach is needed for it. Korea, as in the case of NASL players that can deliver the best content is a good means of making money. Korea, the players, but they use their money and just pay for does not.



Bear TV players overseas in Korea and South Korea's outstanding overseas players for the variety of activities are conducted in conjunction with the program. MLG Columbus, MLG Anaheim, followed the course of Raleigh MLG MLG is a typical mid-August, the IEM is also scheduled to take place.



International tournament for players to experience a wider world with players from abroad an opportunity to win an absolute must compete for. But I do not forget the fact that a pro, amateur competitions such as the decision to give up boldly exhibit is required.



NASL second season of the year $ 1.1 million (KRW 108 million won), season, $ 2.1 million, $ 3.2 million season (KRW 216 million won), and total prize money, $ 400,000 (KRW 400 million 32 million won), and under the world's top class "Starcraft 2> invited players will create competition, he said. But until now, their behavior showed that the best players in the world utilize these 'tricks of the NASL players faking two beolgetda money "is nothing more than a hunch.



Finally, the NASL lose out to run for Congress even now, the best players in the world expected from the phase that exhibited shape and Congress want to show the operation.



On the other hand, NASL players lined up on Season 1 were not paid the deposit yet, has not paid cash, too. In addition, South Korea Teams FXOKorea recently merged with FXOpen except for the NASL Season 2 All teams and players decided not to exhibit at.


Never use Google translate for eastern languages....ever.
Dirty Deeds...DONE DIRT CHEAP!!!
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
August 12 2011 09:52 GMT
#140

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
Haze.884
Profile Joined July 2011
New Zealand192 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 09:57:12
August 12 2011 09:54 GMT
#141

I'm sorry about my title to SC2Korean team. It actually SC2Team organazation's opinion. So It may not contain all team's opinion(ex Slayers, FXO) but actually it's close to opinion of SC2Teams


Are you serious? This is NOT an official opinion from SC2team organisation.
THIS IS MERELY A COLUMN WRITTEN BY A REPORTER IN THISISGAME.COM.
This is very misleading. People will think this hugely biased (and somewhat potentially offending) opinion is the official opnion of SC2CON.

대체 무슨생각으로 쓰신지는 모르겠는데, 상황을 악화시킬만하게 (발)번역하셨네요.
디스이스게임의 칼럼써놓고 무슨 협의회 의견인양 써노시네 -.-
a
ineq
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden376 Posts
August 12 2011 09:54 GMT
#142
On August 12 2011 18:38 alexhard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:35 ineq wrote:
I'm almost willing to go as far as to say that it is slightly disgusting how Korean proteams expect everything to be handed to them on a silver plate. $1k is ALOT to invest, it's $16k for every finals event that they hand out to the players, in addition to their huge prizepool. Koreans are thinking to highly of themselves. Guess it's from their BroodWar background. *waving hands* SC2 is not Korean BW!

Teams should invest in sending their players to events, they get TONS of exposure, especially the Koreans, who most of the times plague the top positions with their presence.


They are the best and most popular players in the world. MLG went from nothing to superstars with the GOM agreement (just look at the "recordbraking viewers" after each MLG lately). Simply put, they have sufficient leverage for this sort of request. It's the same reason F1 teams get a larger cut of the broadcast money the higher they place in the manufacturer's championship.


The event NaNiwa won had no Koreans in it, and it was so packed people had to sit on the floor, or stand up watching the whole tournament. MLG is not blowing up because of the Koreans, it's blowing up because of SC2. Sure the exchange program is helping along the way. But i don't think the Koreans should be able to take the scene in their own hands and do whatever they want, just because they are popular.

Ignorance. One word.
HerO - iNcontroL - DeMusliM - TaeJa - JaeDong
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 09:56:38
August 12 2011 09:56 GMT
#143
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.


If that was the case, it's fine, but then they shouldn't have signed up in the first place and waited until NASL already started filming the season to let them know their backing out.
Moderator
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
August 12 2011 09:56 GMT
#144
On August 12 2011 18:15 Sneakyz wrote:
I'm kind of curious how 1500 $(if you include the prizepool change) can't be enough to cover the expenses of a few days in the US. That's about the same as my brother spent at travel and food for a week at the canary islands.


It might be enough, but people need to pay it out of their own pockets, which they do not like. They think it is unfair compared to the people who live close by. Additionally, Koreans are used to tournaments who pay flight/hotels for the participants, that's just how it goes there.
Deleted User 47542
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1484 Posts
August 12 2011 09:57 GMT
#145
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
August 12 2011 09:58 GMT
#146
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:01:15
August 12 2011 10:00 GMT
#147
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc? What's the difference between those and NASL?
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
Deleted User 47542
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:04:26
August 12 2011 10:00 GMT
#148
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.
farnham
Profile Joined January 2011
1378 Posts
August 12 2011 10:02 GMT
#149
i dont know about the pool play

but it was a shame how they handled the offline tournament (well its online but you know what i mean)

sure the games were great as they had a bunch of koreans playing.. but imagine someone like boxer comming to america just to play a bo3 and loose out against ogsmc

for 0 dollars and a lot of expense.. its just a bad deal for koreans overall
ineq
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden376 Posts
August 12 2011 10:03 GMT
#150
It's obviously a plot to slow down the foreign scene, it's getting to big and Korea is not benefiting enough. That's more or less how it comes out looking.
HerO - iNcontroL - DeMusliM - TaeJa - JaeDong
NHY
Profile Joined October 2010
1013 Posts
August 12 2011 10:04 GMT
#151
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.


That maybe true, but Korean teams' stated demands according to both NASL's post and TIG article were: 1) security deposit gone 2) travel expenses covered.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:06:54
August 12 2011 10:05 GMT
#152
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete evenly. You can't make assumptions and use personal anecdotes like that. If the Koreans say the conditions are too bad for them, you can't really tell them it's not. Follow your own advice and think before you post.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
dtz
Profile Joined September 2010
5834 Posts
August 12 2011 10:05 GMT
#153
Considering they are sending their players everywhere else, it does seem that one of the most important thing about Korean progamers is about the treatment at the live event. It is very important that they are able to maintain their condition and not get distracted by anything else other than the game. The article makes it sound that the thing that bothers a lot of people especially Boxer is how neglected they were during the live event. It makes sense now because Boxer said that he was able to enjoy MLG very much unlike his previous foreign event. Now we know that referred to NASL. Although it was said that boxer withdrew from similar reasons, It seems unlikely that the issue with Boxer is about the stipends to be honest especially since boxer withdrew long time ago.

I admire Milkis more and more after this "incident" We can see that his role is very crucial in ensuring that the Koreans are battle-ready in a foreign place. This is very similar to sport and music stars before a game or a concert. They need to be at their comfort zone. This is especially important to them more than anything else.

But the sad thing is, unlike Boxer, SC2CON withdrew extremely late. They already knew about the terms and conditions but tried to push for better conditions instead of withdrawing immediately once they were not satisfied ( like Boxer did). This created extremely unfortunate situation for NASL.
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
August 12 2011 10:06 GMT
#154
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?

We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
Deleted User 47542
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1484 Posts
August 12 2011 10:07 GMT
#155
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete. You can't make assumptions and personal anecdotes like that. Follow your own advice and think before you post.

So you are going to tell me that it is difficult to wake up at 4-5a.m once a week for 10 weeks? Sorry I live in the real world, and to most others that isn't very hard to do. And do you honestly believe that the coaches will force them to practice through the night so that they get little to no sleep? Yeah, I like to use logic before making personal assumptions, but thanks for the advice.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 10:07 GMT
#156
On August 12 2011 18:38 Govou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:35 ineq wrote:
I'm almost willing to go as far as to say that it is slightly disgusting how Korean proteams expect everything to be handed to them on a silver plate. $1k is ALOT to invest, it's $16k for every finals event that they hand out to the players, in addition to their huge prizepool. Koreans are thinking to highly of themselves. Guess it's from their BroodWar background. *waving hands* SC2 is not Korean BW!

Teams should invest in sending their players to events, they get TONS of exposure, especially the Koreans, who most of the times plague the top positions with their presence.


you are right. 1k is alot to invest.

to both side.

Why should korean team should be participating then? Especially knowing they haven't been happy with the conditions and the fact that they havent recieved the money from season 1 yet.

If they do not want to participate, that is fine. But bitching about rules that were known before the tournament is strange. And not reading the rules, not speaking English, not understanding what the rules mean for them are not valid excuses. The sense of entitlement is rather annoying. If they actually are so essential for the success of NASL then NASL will fail without them, if not then not, but it is ultimately the decision of NASL what the rules will be.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 10:07 GMT
#157
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?



Did those tournaments take 3 months of waking up at odd hours and a security deposit to compete in?
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Deleted User 47542
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:11:46
August 12 2011 10:09 GMT
#158
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?


... obviously not. $100,000 total prize pool.

A security deposit is basically just money that you'll never lose as long as you follow the rules, and they only have to play once a week for ten weeks which is to my knowledge 1x10 = 10 days of play. It's not like they are playing for 3 months straight holy shit people think before you post.

I don't even like NASL and I'm having to defend them from people that have no clue what they are talking about.
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:12:02
August 12 2011 10:11 GMT
#159
On August 12 2011 19:07 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?



Did those tournaments take 3 months of waking up at odd hours and a security deposit to compete in?

Sorry. I think we misunderstood each other. We both didn't read each other's posts carefully. Basically, we have similar opinions. Peace.
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:14:06
August 12 2011 10:13 GMT
#160
On August 12 2011 19:07 superbabosheki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete. You can't make assumptions and personal anecdotes like that. Follow your own advice and think before you post.

So you are going to tell me that it is difficult to wake up at 4-5a.m once a week for 10 weeks? Sorry I live in the real world, and to most others that isn't very hard to do.


You're not living in a world where you're competing for a living. Yes, waking up at 4-5AM for possibly no reward, not knowing whether my opponent is even going to show up, and competing in a latency-ridden environment does sound hard for me. Sounds more like you live in a world where you think you can just make big assumptions on other people's experience that you really have no idea about. Because, surprise, the real world doesn't work like that.

On August 12 2011 19:07 superbabosheki wrote:And do you honestly believe that the coaches will force them to practice through the night so that they get little to no sleep? Yeah, I like to use logic before making personal assumptions, but thanks for the advice.


Never said that the coaches would force them to practice. And if you like using logic so much, please start doing it more. But you're welcome, I'm always here to give out obvious advice to the uninformed.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
August 12 2011 10:14 GMT
#161
On August 12 2011 19:09 superbabosheki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?


... obviously not. $100,000 total prize pool.

A security deposit is basically just money that you'll never lose as long as you follow the rules, and they only have to play once a week for ten weeks which is to my knowledge 1x10 = 10 days of play. It's not like they are playing for 3 months straight holy shit people think before you post.

I don't even like NASL and I'm having to defend them from people that have no clue what they are talking about.


yeah. Fair enough.
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
iRRelevance
Profile Joined June 2009
Romania725 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:16:55
August 12 2011 10:15 GMT
#162
On August 12 2011 19:07 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?



Did those tournaments take 3 months of waking up at odd hours and a security deposit to compete in?


Jesus, stop saying that. They don't wake up for 3 months at odd hours. They wake up ONCE A WEEK at an odd hour, 9 or 10 times. How fkin hard is that? Even I get some bad sleep once a week, and I still wake up early to go to work, and I bet they love playing starcraft more than I love going to work.
The problem lies elsewhere. There is something we don't know. As always, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
"You can ... draw sounds ?"
Deleted User 47542
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1484 Posts
August 12 2011 10:16 GMT
#163
On August 12 2011 19:13 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:07 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete. You can't make assumptions and personal anecdotes like that. Follow your own advice and think before you post.

So you are going to tell me that it is difficult to wake up at 4-5a.m once a week for 10 weeks? Sorry I live in the real world, and to most others that isn't very hard to do.


You're not living in a world where you're competing for a living. Yes, waking up at 4-5AM for possibly no reward, not knowing whether my opponent is even going to show up, and competing in a latency-ridden environment does sound hard for me. Sounds more like you live in a world where you think you can just make big assumptions on other people's experience that you really have no idea about. Because, surprise, the real world doesn't work like that.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:07 superbabosheki wrote:And do you honestly believe that the coaches will force them to practice through the night so that they get little to no sleep? Yeah, I like to use logic before making personal assumptions, but thanks for the advice.


Never said that the coaches would force them to practice. And if you like using logic so much, please start doing it more. But you're welcome, I'm always here to give out obvious advice to the uninformed.

Sorry I didn't know that waking early up once a week to have a shot at qualifying for a $100,000 tournament had more cons than pros. Thanks for enlightening me.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 10:18 GMT
#164
On August 12 2011 19:16 superbabosheki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:07 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete. You can't make assumptions and personal anecdotes like that. Follow your own advice and think before you post.

So you are going to tell me that it is difficult to wake up at 4-5a.m once a week for 10 weeks? Sorry I live in the real world, and to most others that isn't very hard to do.


You're not living in a world where you're competing for a living. Yes, waking up at 4-5AM for possibly no reward, not knowing whether my opponent is even going to show up, and competing in a latency-ridden environment does sound hard for me. Sounds more like you live in a world where you think you can just make big assumptions on other people's experience that you really have no idea about. Because, surprise, the real world doesn't work like that.

On August 12 2011 19:07 superbabosheki wrote:And do you honestly believe that the coaches will force them to practice through the night so that they get little to no sleep? Yeah, I like to use logic before making personal assumptions, but thanks for the advice.


Never said that the coaches would force them to practice. And if you like using logic so much, please start doing it more. But you're welcome, I'm always here to give out obvious advice to the uninformed.

Sorry I didn't know that waking early up once a week to have a shot at qualifying for a $100,000 tournament had more cons than pros. Thanks for enlightening me.


You're welcome.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
August 12 2011 10:19 GMT
#165
On August 12 2011 19:16 superbabosheki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:07 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete. You can't make assumptions and personal anecdotes like that. Follow your own advice and think before you post.

So you are going to tell me that it is difficult to wake up at 4-5a.m once a week for 10 weeks? Sorry I live in the real world, and to most others that isn't very hard to do.


You're not living in a world where you're competing for a living. Yes, waking up at 4-5AM for possibly no reward, not knowing whether my opponent is even going to show up, and competing in a latency-ridden environment does sound hard for me. Sounds more like you live in a world where you think you can just make big assumptions on other people's experience that you really have no idea about. Because, surprise, the real world doesn't work like that.

On August 12 2011 19:07 superbabosheki wrote:And do you honestly believe that the coaches will force them to practice through the night so that they get little to no sleep? Yeah, I like to use logic before making personal assumptions, but thanks for the advice.


Never said that the coaches would force them to practice. And if you like using logic so much, please start doing it more. But you're welcome, I'm always here to give out obvious advice to the uninformed.

Sorry I didn't know that waking early up once a week to have a shot at qualifying for a $100,000 tournament had more cons than pros. Thanks for enlightening me.


Peace. I like the words: '' As always, the truth is somewhere in the middle. ''
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
August 12 2011 10:19 GMT
#166
On August 12 2011 19:18 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:16 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:07 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete. You can't make assumptions and personal anecdotes like that. Follow your own advice and think before you post.

So you are going to tell me that it is difficult to wake up at 4-5a.m once a week for 10 weeks? Sorry I live in the real world, and to most others that isn't very hard to do.


You're not living in a world where you're competing for a living. Yes, waking up at 4-5AM for possibly no reward, not knowing whether my opponent is even going to show up, and competing in a latency-ridden environment does sound hard for me. Sounds more like you live in a world where you think you can just make big assumptions on other people's experience that you really have no idea about. Because, surprise, the real world doesn't work like that.

On August 12 2011 19:07 superbabosheki wrote:And do you honestly believe that the coaches will force them to practice through the night so that they get little to no sleep? Yeah, I like to use logic before making personal assumptions, but thanks for the advice.


Never said that the coaches would force them to practice. And if you like using logic so much, please start doing it more. But you're welcome, I'm always here to give out obvious advice to the uninformed.

Sorry I didn't know that waking early up once a week to have a shot at qualifying for a $100,000 tournament had more cons than pros. Thanks for enlightening me.


You're welcome.

Beauty sleep is expensive these days.
Skilledblob
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany3392 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:25:58
August 12 2011 10:25 GMT
#167
so the koreans want to be treated like kings and dont use any money. I agree that how NASL runs their broadcast is a bad system but the attitude the koreans are showing just makes them look arrogant
Misanthrophic13
Profile Joined August 2011
Bahrain22 Posts
August 12 2011 10:28 GMT
#168
On August 12 2011 19:09 superbabosheki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?


... obviously not. $100,000 total prize pool.

A security deposit is basically just money that you'll never lose as long as you follow the rules, and they only have to play once a week for ten weeks which is to my knowledge 1x10 = 10 days of play. It's not like they are playing for 3 months straight holy shit people think before you post.

I don't even like NASL and I'm having to defend them from people that have no clue what they are talking about.


Talk about getting a clue, your post is riddled with irony.
This is not about the money, this is about the horrific conditions and the weak production of the NASL. Sc2con are fed up with the lack of business ethics on the part of the NASL, which is why they refused their players to join in the NASL.
The difference between satire and sarcasm is the difference between surgery and butchery. — Edward Nichols
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
August 12 2011 10:28 GMT
#169
On August 12 2011 19:09 superbabosheki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?


... obviously not. $100,000 total prize pool.

A security deposit is basically just money that you'll never lose as long as you follow the rules, and they only have to play once a week for ten weeks which is to my knowledge 1x10 = 10 days of play. It's not like they are playing for 3 months straight holy shit people think before you post.

I don't even like NASL and I'm having to defend them from people that have no clue what they are talking about.


You mean the security deposit which haven't been paid back to the players who stuck to the rules?
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
August 12 2011 10:30 GMT
#170
On August 12 2011 19:15 iRRelevance wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:07 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?



Did those tournaments take 3 months of waking up at odd hours and a security deposit to compete in?


Jesus, stop saying that. They don't wake up for 3 months at odd hours. They wake up ONCE A WEEK at an odd hour, 9 or 10 times. How fkin hard is that? Even I get some bad sleep once a week, and I still wake up early to go to work, and I bet they love playing starcraft more than I love going to work.
The problem lies elsewhere. There is something we don't know. As always, the truth is somewhere in the middle.


I agree, waking up at a different hour once a week is not too bad.

When i worked in munich and my GF lived in flensburg (1200km distance) i went to the train every friday after work, travel to her and get to sleep around 5am, then on sunday i went to the train at 10pm, traveled through the night (usually couldn't sleep in the trains) and went directly from the train to work at around 8am. It was a nuisance, but messing up the sleep schedule once a week is not too bad.

Some people here make it sound like the koreans have to stay up all night just to play and can't just go to bed 2 hours earlier or as if the korean participants have to basically live on the US timezones.

Anyways, i have the feeling that there is a lot going on behind the scenes of which we are not aware.

+ Show Spoiler +

Conspiracy theories:
1. GOM forcing sc2con to use it's power to stop koreans from participating in the NASL because they want to kill all other leagues to be the only starcraft 2 league.
2. NASL trying to prevent koreans from entering because they want to have a foreigner-only league but can't say so openly.
3. Kespa secretly took over sc2con and wants to kill SC2 in favour of BW.
4. NASL denied boxer a throne of solid gold to sit on while waiting for his games, so the emperor ordered sc2con to force NASL to give in with the added requirement that Jessica gets a second throne so they can sit on the main stage together while observing the games.
5. incontrol trolled Mr. Chae and he still holds a grudge and mistranslates all messages between NASL and sc2con. They are actually agreeing but think the other side is not because of Mr. Chaes sinister plans.
+ Show Spoiler +

Just kidding of course :p

Deleted User 47542
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:34:23
August 12 2011 10:31 GMT
#171
On August 12 2011 19:28 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:09 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?


... obviously not. $100,000 total prize pool.

A security deposit is basically just money that you'll never lose as long as you follow the rules, and they only have to play once a week for ten weeks which is to my knowledge 1x10 = 10 days of play. It's not like they are playing for 3 months straight holy shit people think before you post.

I don't even like NASL and I'm having to defend them from people that have no clue what they are talking about.


You mean the security deposit which haven't been paid back to the players who stuck to the rules?

I mean the security deposit that is going to definitely be paid back.

On August 12 2011 19:28 Misanthrophic13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:09 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?


... obviously not. $100,000 total prize pool.

A security deposit is basically just money that you'll never lose as long as you follow the rules, and they only have to play once a week for ten weeks which is to my knowledge 1x10 = 10 days of play. It's not like they are playing for 3 months straight holy shit people think before you post.

I don't even like NASL and I'm having to defend them from people that have no clue what they are talking about.


Talk about getting a clue, your post is riddled with irony.
This is not about the money, this is about the horrific conditions and the weak production of the NASL. Sc2con are fed up with the lack of business ethics on the part of the NASL, which is why they refused their players to join in the NASL.

1. waking up at a odd time once a week is not a horrific condtion
2. the production has vastly improved and the community generally approves of it, the NASL finals were probably the best SC2 finals we've ever seen
3. I bet you can't name a single well informed example of a questionable business ethic.

Hence me saying people have no clue what they are talking about.
Misanthrophic13
Profile Joined August 2011
Bahrain22 Posts
August 12 2011 10:32 GMT
#172
On August 12 2011 19:25 Skilledblob wrote:
so the koreans want to be treated like kings and dont use any money. I agree that how NASL runs their broadcast is a bad system but the attitude the koreans are showing just makes them look arrogant


Your ignorance of the subject is so overwhelming, stop the false dichotomy.
Please research both sides of the argument before making an informed decision.
NASL has failed miserably and SC2con doesn't even want contact with them.
It isn't about the money, it's more about the horrid conditions, the unfair latency advantage, the poor production of the NASL in general. It pales when compared to the GSL. The big loser here is the NASL for losing Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James. Have fun watching Mike Bibby.
The difference between satire and sarcasm is the difference between surgery and butchery. — Edward Nichols
dampv
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden83 Posts
August 12 2011 10:34 GMT
#173
On August 12 2011 19:15 iRRelevance wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:07 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?



Did those tournaments take 3 months of waking up at odd hours and a security deposit to compete in?


Jesus, stop saying that. They don't wake up for 3 months at odd hours. They wake up ONCE A WEEK at an odd hour, 9 or 10 times. How fkin hard is that? Even I get some bad sleep once a week, and I still wake up early to go to work, and I bet they love playing starcraft more than I love going to work.
The problem lies elsewhere. There is something we don't know. As always, the truth is somewhere in the middle.


I'd say it's down to the sum of all problems stated. That is, the playing conditions being far from ideal, the deposit, the cost of travel and so on. Personally, if I was a guy like for instance Tassadar I'd love the chance to participate in NASL. The top players from code A make basically no money, and qualifying for code S is very difficult, and succeedeing in no way guarantees you a significant amount of money. Sure these guys would have to make sacrificies to participate in NASL, but with the best koreans not there the worst that could happen is that they win a paid trip to the US, which is worth more than the winner of code A nets. And then they have a decent shot at 10-50k for placing in the top3. Sounds more promising than battling it out with 32 very good players for 1500 bucks and chance to qualify for code S.

With that being said I don't really understand the drama that's being made over this, it was a simple negotiation and the koreans thought that the current conditions were not worth it, and if they think so it's their loss in the end. As someone mentioned, the koreans won more than $80k at the last event, seems to me like it would have been worth taking the chance of spending a few bob to have a shot at a 100k prizepool, even with the lag issues and time difference. Hell, I recall back in the day when a Swedish CS-team got screwed over by their manager and had no sponsorship for their trip to a CPL Dallas event with something like 50k for first place. They paid around $15k out of their own pockets to participate and ended up winning in the end.
Fangzhou
Profile Joined April 2010
United States199 Posts
August 12 2011 10:41 GMT
#174
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


Why do so many people say it's only $1000 instead of $2000??

You realize if they don't participate in the tournament, they are not getting the $1000 in prize money anyways... If they withdraw from NASL, they get $0 dollars from NASL. It's a minimum of $2000 more than what they would have gotten from not entering the tournament no matter how you want to look at it.
AzurewinD
Profile Joined November 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:44:55
August 12 2011 10:42 GMT
#175
On August 12 2011 18:54 Haze.884 wrote:
Show nested quote +

I'm sorry about my title to SC2Korean team. It actually SC2Team organazation's opinion. So It may not contain all team's opinion(ex Slayers, FXO) but actually it's close to opinion of SC2Teams


Are you serious? This is NOT an official opinion from SC2team organisation.
THIS IS MERELY A COLUMN WRITTEN BY A REPORTER IN THISISGAME.COM.
This is very misleading. People will think this hugely biased (and somewhat potentially offending) opinion is the official opnion of SC2CON.

대체 무슨생각으로 쓰신지는 모르겠는데, 상황을 악화시킬만하게 (발)번역하셨네요.
디스이스게임의 칼럼써놓고 무슨 협의회 의견인양 써노시네 -.-


Did anyone read this?

Did anyone bother to check the source of the OP's translation?

Can anyone post a link to the source in question and verify that the OP's translation comes directly from SC2con? The OP has no link to the original Korean article. Otherwise we've been discussing a bunch of text someone random (with 3 posts) posted.
"...I want more people to be in that state more often, to see things not through the limited and rigid mind or the fearful ego, but through a heart that loves to express and create" - Xiaonan "Glider" Sun
Skilledblob
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany3392 Posts
August 12 2011 10:45 GMT
#176
On August 12 2011 19:32 Misanthrophic13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:25 Skilledblob wrote:
so the koreans want to be treated like kings and dont use any money. I agree that how NASL runs their broadcast is a bad system but the attitude the koreans are showing just makes them look arrogant


Your ignorance of the subject is so overwhelming, stop the false dichotomy.
Please research both sides of the argument before making an informed decision.
NASL has failed miserably and SC2con doesn't even want contact with them.
It isn't about the money, it's more about the horrid conditions, the unfair latency advantage, the poor production of the NASL in general. It pales when compared to the GSL. The big loser here is the NASL for losing Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James. Have fun watching Mike Bibby.


of course it is about money. Horrible conditions my ass you cant tell me that taking a nap around mid day so you can play 1 bo3 later in the night is a horrible condition. Unfair latency is bullshit too, if that were really an issue then tell me why the koreans still managed to win most of their games. But I can allready guess that you will tell me that they are demigods who cant lose.
And like I said I dont like how NASL is run either but dont try to make up stupid reasons when the only real reason is money.

And the only ones losing here are the players that wanted to participate.
chokke
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway228 Posts
August 12 2011 10:47 GMT
#177
Why can't they make it so some of the matches are played dirt early for NA sometimes? If it's so damn simple as you say, it shouldn't be a problem. And to make it fair, everyone should pay into some pot that goes to pay for all the players. I mean, it should be fair?

No. It causes more stress in every way for the Koreans, and I fully understand if they don't want to bother with it. Not that it's a big issue for me, got enough SC2 through GSL and the MLG/IEM now and then. Better production-value and casters.

dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 10:47 GMT
#178
On August 12 2011 19:41 Fangzhou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


Why do so many people say it's only $1000 instead of $2000??

You realize if they don't participate in the tournament, they are not getting the $1000 in prize money anyways... If they withdraw from NASL, they get $0 dollars from NASL. It's a minimum of $2000 more than what they would have gotten from not entering the tournament no matter how you want to look at it.


Because it IS only a 1000 dollar stipend that they're offering. You don't get a "minimum 2000". You have to pay your own way to the tournament, which they're expecting the Koreans to pay out of their own pocket after the 1000. They're expecting them to use the prize money to cover their expenses.

And competing in the NASL DOES have the cost of making them get up at odd hours for 3 months. And competing at a latency disadvantage on top of that. It's a combination of all these factors and more that makes it not worth it.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Namu
Profile Joined February 2011
United States826 Posts
August 12 2011 10:49 GMT
#179
On August 12 2011 19:42 AzurewinD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:54 Haze.884 wrote:

I'm sorry about my title to SC2Korean team. It actually SC2Team organazation's opinion. So It may not contain all team's opinion(ex Slayers, FXO) but actually it's close to opinion of SC2Teams


Are you serious? This is NOT an official opinion from SC2team organisation.
THIS IS MERELY A COLUMN WRITTEN BY A REPORTER IN THISISGAME.COM.
This is very misleading. People will think this hugely biased (and somewhat potentially offending) opinion is the official opnion of SC2CON.

대체 무슨생각으로 쓰신지는 모르겠는데, 상황을 악화시킬만하게 (발)번역하셨네요.
디스이스게임의 칼럼써놓고 무슨 협의회 의견인양 써노시네 -.-


Did anyone read this?

Did anyone bother to check the source of the OP's translation?

Can anyone post a link to the source in question and verify that the OP's translation comes directly from SC2con? The OP has no link to the original Korean article. Otherwise we've been discussing a bunch of text someone random (with 3 posts) posted.


it does NOT come from sc2con, it's a column written by a reporter as haze said.
http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13439&id=736266
mustache
Profile Joined April 2010
Switzerland309 Posts
August 12 2011 10:53 GMT
#180
MLG, Dreamhack etc are all much better organized and require much less of a time investment to play in than NASL.

With so many events going on and the koreans being invited to all of them it makes sense that you have to prioritize, you cant have your players flying around the world all the time.

MLG has a partnership with GOM to ensure no schedule conflicts, they only do LAN play, and playing in a tournament ensures you a better chance at the next MLG (if you do well)

I don't see how NASL can compete.

aka_star
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United Kingdom1546 Posts
August 12 2011 10:54 GMT
#181
Poor Koreans I hope they manage to figure something out as it'd be a shame for the NASL unless they become an American only tournament then that'd make some more sense.
FlashDave.999 aka Star
Zandar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands1541 Posts
August 12 2011 10:55 GMT
#182
I might be missing something, but why is it so tough to schedule games with Koreans on normal times anyway?

KO vs EU, let them play in EU morning, which is KO evening.
US vs KO, let them play in KO morning, which is US evening
US vs EU, let them play in US morning, which is EU evening.

That way nobody has to play during night hours, for every 2 spots in the world there's always a time of the day people at both spots are awake, even if the time difference is 12 hours, since you only sleep 8 on average?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 10:55 GMT
#183
On August 12 2011 19:54 aka_star wrote:
Poor Koreans I hope they manage to figure something out as it'd be a shame for the NASL unless they become an American only tournament then that'd make some more sense.


Does the fact that EU and South American players are in the NASL have to be brought up again?
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:57:16
August 12 2011 10:56 GMT
#184
On August 12 2011 19:55 Zandar wrote:
I might be missing something, but why is it so tough to schedule games with Koreans on normal times anyway?

KO vs EU, let them play in EU morning, which is KO evening.
US vs KO, let them play in KO morning, which is US evening
US vs EU, let them play in US morning, which is EU evening.

That way nobody has to play during night hours, for every 2 spots in the world there's always a time of the day people at both spots are awake, even if the time difference is 12 hours, since you only sleep 8 on average?


For some stupid reason, NASL wants to cast the games live (and record them casting it for broadcast later), and arrange schedules based on when the Casters are in their studios in California or something.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Raysalis
Profile Joined July 2010
Malaysia1034 Posts
August 12 2011 11:02 GMT
#185
On August 12 2011 19:49 Namu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:42 AzurewinD wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:54 Haze.884 wrote:

I'm sorry about my title to SC2Korean team. It actually SC2Team organazation's opinion. So It may not contain all team's opinion(ex Slayers, FXO) but actually it's close to opinion of SC2Teams


Are you serious? This is NOT an official opinion from SC2team organisation.
THIS IS MERELY A COLUMN WRITTEN BY A REPORTER IN THISISGAME.COM.
This is very misleading. People will think this hugely biased (and somewhat potentially offending) opinion is the official opnion of SC2CON.

대체 무슨생각으로 쓰신지는 모르겠는데, 상황을 악화시킬만하게 (발)번역하셨네요.
디스이스게임의 칼럼써놓고 무슨 협의회 의견인양 써노시네 -.-


Did anyone read this?

Did anyone bother to check the source of the OP's translation?

Can anyone post a link to the source in question and verify that the OP's translation comes directly from SC2con? The OP has no link to the original Korean article. Otherwise we've been discussing a bunch of text someone random (with 3 posts) posted.


it does NOT come from sc2con, it's a column written by a reporter as haze said.
http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13439&id=736266


Yup, the title of this thread needs to be change to avoid confusion.

Also, from reading the Korean Netizens reaction in that article, it looks like they mostly disagree with the decision to pull out of NASL. :p
:)
Zandar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands1541 Posts
August 12 2011 11:02 GMT
#186
On August 12 2011 19:56 dabom88 wrote:
For some stupid reason, NASL wants to cast the games live (and record them casting it for broadcast later), and arrange schedules based on when the Casters are in their studios in California or something.


Well they have to change that then.
Have a local referee watch the game and send the replay, then cast that.

Or the casters have to change their schedules to suit the players.
The schedules of the casters, who are just a few people, should be less important than the schedules of the players since there are way more players.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
Flash_one
Profile Joined February 2011
Korea (South)27 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:10:14
August 12 2011 11:03 GMT
#187
Not gonna stand for any one but from what i gathered this is what i think of their reasons

1. SlayerS is not associated w/ SC2CON BoxeR is not attending NASL because he literally said that the league format SUCKS (hes the only one that is supportted by intel for travel amoung korean players)
2. ST July had to stay up all night waiting for he's opponent to show up but never did so he went straight to GSL w/o a sleep
3. SC2CON is organization built up by coaches. They do the bestfor their players. Never will try to do smth that harms their playerz
4. There was video of thewind where he said that he had to stay all nite up waiting for NASL's reply http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/gomcam/
Wassssabe~
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 11:05 GMT
#188
On August 12 2011 20:02 Zandar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:56 dabom88 wrote:
For some stupid reason, NASL wants to cast the games live (and record them casting it for broadcast later), and arrange schedules based on when the Casters are in their studios in California or something.


Well they have to change that then.
Have a local referee watch the game and send the replay, then cast that.

Or the casters have to change their schedules to suit the players.
The schedules of the casters, who are just a few people, should be less important than the schedules of the players since there are way more players.


That would be the logical thing to do. However, that involves assuming NASL always does the logical thing, which it doesn't.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Haze.884
Profile Joined July 2011
New Zealand192 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:08:41
August 12 2011 11:06 GMT
#189
On August 12 2011 19:42 AzurewinD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:54 Haze.884 wrote:

I'm sorry about my title to SC2Korean team. It actually SC2Team organazation's opinion. So It may not contain all team's opinion(ex Slayers, FXO) but actually it's close to opinion of SC2Teams


Are you serious? This is NOT an official opinion from SC2team organisation.
THIS IS MERELY A COLUMN WRITTEN BY A REPORTER IN THISISGAME.COM.
This is very misleading. People will think this hugely biased (and somewhat potentially offending) opinion is the official opnion of SC2CON.

대체 무슨생각으로 쓰신지는 모르겠는데, 상황을 악화시킬만하게 (발)번역하셨네요.
디스이스게임의 칼럼써놓고 무슨 협의회 의견인양 써노시네 -.-


Did anyone read this?

Did anyone bother to check the source of the OP's translation?

Can anyone post a link to the source in question and verify that the OP's translation comes directly from SC2con? The OP has no link to the original Korean article. Otherwise we've been discussing a bunch of text someone random (with 3 posts) posted.


I will make it easy for you. Link below.
http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13439&id=736266
written by 카르토르 who is a reporter in ThisIsGame.

The OP DID NOT COPY THE ENTIRE ARTICLE nor ACKNOWLEDGE THE ORGINAL SOURCE.. Making me very very dubious of his intent of posting this poor translation. (Yes its very poor)
a
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:10:38
August 12 2011 11:08 GMT
#190
On August 12 2011 19:31 superbabosheki wrote:
1. waking up at a odd time once a week is not a horrific condtion
When you're playing a game like SC2, it is. The players can't simply wake up and perform at their best. They have a rhythm and warm up, and switching your sleep schedule around to meet that isn't feasible. It's like if in the NBA, ONLY Western Conference teams have to play back-to-back games, while EC teams always have a day or two of rest.

Their success in the tournament is contingent on them playing as well as they can, which is hindered by the scheduling. Yes, waking up is easy but their job is not to wake up. Their job is to play SC2 at the highest level, against other professionals.

If it's difficult, and it begins to affect their performance in other tournaments, then dropping out seems like a wise option.

And quite frankly, the NASL's live-cast, delayed-broadcast system is just stupid. Everyone's told them that from the beginning, and they've run into basically every possible problem that can occur, yet they're still using it. The benefits are marginal, at best. This is the kind of stuff NASL should be re-evaluating, when they say they're going to improve production.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
ineq
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden376 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:08:51
August 12 2011 11:08 GMT
#191
I wonder if teams like SK or coL are liking this, i'm sure NASL was a big part of their intended market. Maybe they'll start getting their own players when things like this happen.
HerO - iNcontroL - DeMusliM - TaeJa - JaeDong
bRuTaL!!
Profile Joined August 2010
Finland588 Posts
August 12 2011 11:11 GMT
#192
On August 12 2011 19:32 Misanthrophic13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:25 Skilledblob wrote:
so the koreans want to be treated like kings and dont use any money. I agree that how NASL runs their broadcast is a bad system but the attitude the koreans are showing just makes them look arrogant


Your ignorance of the subject is so overwhelming, stop the false dichotomy.
Please research both sides of the argument before making an informed decision.
NASL has failed miserably and SC2con doesn't even want contact with them.
It isn't about the money, it's more about the horrid conditions, the unfair latency advantage, the poor production of the NASL in general. It pales when compared to the GSL. The big loser here is the NASL for losing Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James. Have fun watching Mike Bibby.


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?

Waking up early once a week. Boohoo. Many of the fans wake up for the chance of seeing them play. Not much money in that.

NASL has made mistakes but its the North American league. Critisizing the format etc. things that NASL can actually influence is fine but the lag or timezones are never going to change, even bringing them up is retarded.

Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James would be nobodys if there werent people that appreciated theyre talent. Top Korean players can thank us foreigner fans for the possibility of taking part in NASL, IEM, DH, Assembly, MLG, HSC etc. Koreans might be the best players but it goes both ways. We are the best fans, we bring the dough that the Korean fans refuse to.

This whole thing is so weird that I think that something must have been lost in translation. If Koreans cant afford to come then that sucks but its not NASLs fault. NASL maybe can change and give more money up front but that has to be given to ALL 16 players so any change is expensive.
Tasteless: "What was it Hans Solo was frozen in? Kryptonite?" Artosis: "Lol, no. Thats the stuff that hurts Batman."
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:13:59
August 12 2011 11:13 GMT
#193
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:32 Misanthrophic13 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:25 Skilledblob wrote:
so the koreans want to be treated like kings and dont use any money. I agree that how NASL runs their broadcast is a bad system but the attitude the koreans are showing just makes them look arrogant


Your ignorance of the subject is so overwhelming, stop the false dichotomy.
Please research both sides of the argument before making an informed decision.
NASL has failed miserably and SC2con doesn't even want contact with them.
It isn't about the money, it's more about the horrid conditions, the unfair latency advantage, the poor production of the NASL in general. It pales when compared to the GSL. The big loser here is the NASL for losing Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James. Have fun watching Mike Bibby.


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Hardigan
Profile Joined June 2011
Switzerland1297 Posts
August 12 2011 11:15 GMT
#194
On August 12 2011 19:55 Zandar wrote:
I might be missing something, but why is it so tough to schedule games with Koreans on normal times anyway?

KO vs EU, let them play in EU morning, which is KO evening.
US vs KO, let them play in KO morning, which is US evening
US vs EU, let them play in US morning, which is EU evening.

That way nobody has to play during night hours, for every 2 spots in the world there's always a time of the day people at both spots are awake, even if the time difference is 12 hours, since you only sleep 8 on average?

-If they want to commentate the games while they are happening then the commentators and staff would have to stay up 24 h a day
-If they want to make it all live: The players could be cheating
-If they want to cast it from replays: lower viewership because it just feels not as exciting.

The solution in my opinion: 3*2 casters world wide:
2 commentators in NA
2 commentators in EU
2 commentators in Korea (or that timezone)

They will cast it live and send the file to NASL HQ where they can edit it.
That way the NA-NASL stuff doesn't have to be up 24h/day and the Koreans can play the games on good times
StUfF
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia1437 Posts
August 12 2011 11:15 GMT
#195
On August 12 2011 20:13 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:32 Misanthrophic13 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:25 Skilledblob wrote:
so the koreans want to be treated like kings and dont use any money. I agree that how NASL runs their broadcast is a bad system but the attitude the koreans are showing just makes them look arrogant


Your ignorance of the subject is so overwhelming, stop the false dichotomy.
Please research both sides of the argument before making an informed decision.
NASL has failed miserably and SC2con doesn't even want contact with them.
It isn't about the money, it's more about the horrid conditions, the unfair latency advantage, the poor production of the NASL in general. It pales when compared to the GSL. The big loser here is the NASL for losing Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James. Have fun watching Mike Bibby.


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.


And not ask Korean players to wait... and wait... and wait... when their opponents don't show up.
Kemy
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
August 12 2011 11:15 GMT
#196
On August 12 2011 19:47 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:41 Fangzhou wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


Why do so many people say it's only $1000 instead of $2000??

You realize if they don't participate in the tournament, they are not getting the $1000 in prize money anyways... If they withdraw from NASL, they get $0 dollars from NASL. It's a minimum of $2000 more than what they would have gotten from not entering the tournament no matter how you want to look at it.


Because it IS only a 1000 dollar stipend that they're offering. You don't get a "minimum 2000". You have to pay your own way to the tournament, which they're expecting the Koreans to pay out of their own pocket after the 1000. They're expecting them to use the prize money to cover their expenses.

And competing in the NASL DOES have the cost of making them get up at odd hours for 3 months. And competing at a latency disadvantage on top of that. It's a combination of all these factors and more that makes it not worth it.


It may be only a 1000 dollar stipend but if you're a player that decides whether to participate in a tournament or not from a cost/income point of view you have to consider prize money as well.

If prize money + stipend > travel cost = worth it

Honestly, I'd prefer players getting paid through prize money only which is equal for every player participating in the tournament than paying different sums to cover travel costs depending on where players come from. I don't see why Koreans should be treated better than anyone else. Europeans and even North Americans may have high travel costs too depending on where they live and (as far as I understand) they don't get as much money.

Waking up a little bit early isn't that much of a deal and how is NASL supposed to fix latency disadvantages -.-
bRuTaL!!
Profile Joined August 2010
Finland588 Posts
August 12 2011 11:16 GMT
#197
On August 12 2011 20:13 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.


If it fits the other player then yes. But *gasp* tolerable times for Koreans are intolerable for others. Since its NA league, I think its fair for Koreans to be the ones that have to adjust.
Tasteless: "What was it Hans Solo was frozen in? Kryptonite?" Artosis: "Lol, no. Thats the stuff that hurts Batman."
bRuTaL!!
Profile Joined August 2010
Finland588 Posts
August 12 2011 11:19 GMT
#198
On August 12 2011 20:15 StUfF wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:32 Misanthrophic13 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:25 Skilledblob wrote:
so the koreans want to be treated like kings and dont use any money. I agree that how NASL runs their broadcast is a bad system but the attitude the koreans are showing just makes them look arrogant


Your ignorance of the subject is so overwhelming, stop the false dichotomy.
Please research both sides of the argument before making an informed decision.
NASL has failed miserably and SC2con doesn't even want contact with them.
It isn't about the money, it's more about the horrid conditions, the unfair latency advantage, the poor production of the NASL in general. It pales when compared to the GSL. The big loser here is the NASL for losing Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James. Have fun watching Mike Bibby.


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.


And not ask Korean players to wait... and wait... and wait... when their opponents don't show up.


I think this is just bad from NASL. They should wait for 30 mins max. If youre late 15min your forfeit first map and then another by 30mins late and giving the win for bo3 matches.
Tasteless: "What was it Hans Solo was frozen in? Kryptonite?" Artosis: "Lol, no. Thats the stuff that hurts Batman."
ineq
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden376 Posts
August 12 2011 11:24 GMT
#199
On August 12 2011 20:15 Kemy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:47 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:41 Fangzhou wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


Why do so many people say it's only $1000 instead of $2000??

You realize if they don't participate in the tournament, they are not getting the $1000 in prize money anyways... If they withdraw from NASL, they get $0 dollars from NASL. It's a minimum of $2000 more than what they would have gotten from not entering the tournament no matter how you want to look at it.


Because it IS only a 1000 dollar stipend that they're offering. You don't get a "minimum 2000". You have to pay your own way to the tournament, which they're expecting the Koreans to pay out of their own pocket after the 1000. They're expecting them to use the prize money to cover their expenses.

And competing in the NASL DOES have the cost of making them get up at odd hours for 3 months. And competing at a latency disadvantage on top of that. It's a combination of all these factors and more that makes it not worth it.


It may be only a 1000 dollar stipend but if you're a player that decides whether to participate in a tournament or not from a cost/income point of view you have to consider prize money as well.

If prize money + stipend > travel cost = worth it

Honestly, I'd prefer players getting paid through prize money only which is equal for every player participating in the tournament than paying different sums to cover travel costs depending on where players come from. I don't see why Koreans should be treated better than anyone else. Europeans and even North Americans may have high travel costs too depending on where they live and (as far as I understand) they don't get as much money.

Waking up a little bit early isn't that much of a deal and how is NASL supposed to fix latency disadvantages -.-


You are, in my opinion, right. For the most part.

I don't agree with "If prize money + stipend > travel cost = worth it". Teams are in place to make sure players show up at events and promote their sponsors, why else would someone sponsor a team? They are given money by companies to make sure that their players promote these companies, use that money for this purpose.

I've said this earlier aswell but; If the Korean teams don't have enough money to send their players, well then that sucks. But no blame should be put on the organizers, in this case the NASL.

As for schedule; how is waking up at 3-4am ONCE a week when you're OCCUPATION is playing sc2 hard or inconvinient? Adjust your sleeping schedule to that of someone who is working a fulltime job and it's not even noticable. How is it not worth it? I have a really hard time understanding the logic, feels more like excuses because they want the NASL to pay their trips.

Or, they just do not understand how the rest of the world works over there in their little bubble. Which i've felt many times before.
HerO - iNcontroL - DeMusliM - TaeJa - JaeDong
Elefanto
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland3584 Posts
August 12 2011 11:25 GMT
#200
On August 12 2011 20:08 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:31 superbabosheki wrote:
1. waking up at a odd time once a week is not a horrific condtion


If it's difficult, and it begins to affect their performance in other tournaments, then dropping out seems like a wise option.



I think no one can argue against that, but how the drop out happened, was, to put it frankly, without any form of respect and in a hostile manner.
wat
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:26:35
August 12 2011 11:25 GMT
#201
On August 12 2011 20:16 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.


If it fits the other player then yes. But *gasp* tolerable times for Koreans are intolerable for others. Since its NA league, I think its fair for Koreans to be the ones that have to adjust.


You may not realize this, but *gasp* it IS possible to schedule games at times that are tolerable for BOTH players involved. AMAZING!
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
StUfF
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia1437 Posts
August 12 2011 11:26 GMT
#202
On August 12 2011 20:24 ineq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:15 Kemy wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:47 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:41 Fangzhou wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


Why do so many people say it's only $1000 instead of $2000??

You realize if they don't participate in the tournament, they are not getting the $1000 in prize money anyways... If they withdraw from NASL, they get $0 dollars from NASL. It's a minimum of $2000 more than what they would have gotten from not entering the tournament no matter how you want to look at it.


Because it IS only a 1000 dollar stipend that they're offering. You don't get a "minimum 2000". You have to pay your own way to the tournament, which they're expecting the Koreans to pay out of their own pocket after the 1000. They're expecting them to use the prize money to cover their expenses.

And competing in the NASL DOES have the cost of making them get up at odd hours for 3 months. And competing at a latency disadvantage on top of that. It's a combination of all these factors and more that makes it not worth it.


It may be only a 1000 dollar stipend but if you're a player that decides whether to participate in a tournament or not from a cost/income point of view you have to consider prize money as well.

If prize money + stipend > travel cost = worth it

Honestly, I'd prefer players getting paid through prize money only which is equal for every player participating in the tournament than paying different sums to cover travel costs depending on where players come from. I don't see why Koreans should be treated better than anyone else. Europeans and even North Americans may have high travel costs too depending on where they live and (as far as I understand) they don't get as much money.

Waking up a little bit early isn't that much of a deal and how is NASL supposed to fix latency disadvantages -.-


You are, in my opinion, right. For the most part.

I don't agree with "If prize money + stipend > travel cost = worth it". Teams are in place to make sure players show up at events and promote their sponsors, why else would someone sponsor a team? They are given money by companies to make sure that their players promote these companies, use that money for this purpose.

I've said this earlier aswell but; If the Korean teams don't have enough money to send their players, well then that sucks. But no blame should be put on the organizers, in this case the NASL.

As for schedule; how is waking up at 3-4am ONCE a week when you're OCCUPATION is playing sc2 hard or inconvinient? Adjust your sleeping schedule to that of someone who is working a fulltime job and it's not even noticable. How is it not worth it? I have a really hard time understanding the logic, feels more like excuses because they want the NASL to pay their trips.

Or, they just do not understand how the rest of the world works over there in their little bubble. Which i've felt many times before.


Prize Money doesn't work that way.

AFAIK. The current model of teams/players, players always keep ALL prize money. The only income teams get are from sponsorships and other deals. Basically even if players got first prize in NASL, the team is still losing out, they just can't provide that kind of cash when all their sponsors are local Korean sponsors who really don't care about getting their name to the international community.
StUfF
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia1437 Posts
August 12 2011 11:27 GMT
#203
On August 12 2011 20:25 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:16 bRuTaL!! wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.


If it fits the other player then yes. But *gasp* tolerable times for Koreans are intolerable for others. Since its NA league, I think its fair for Koreans to be the ones that have to adjust.


You may not realize this, but *gasp* it IS possible to schedule games at times that are tolerable for BOTH players involved. AMAZING!


But guess what? NASL don't. They don't even try. They have a set scheduled time and thats it, they don't vary depending on what locations/regions/countries/timezones players are currently residing in.
SKC
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil18828 Posts
August 12 2011 11:28 GMT
#204
On August 12 2011 20:16 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.


If it fits the other player then yes. But *gasp* tolerable times for Koreans are intolerable for others. Since its NA league, I think its fair for Koreans to be the ones that have to adjust.


No, decent korean times are not intolerable for the others, that's just silly. If playing in the evening in the US makes koreans play at 4am, pushing the time back 4 hours would mean americans would still play at a good time and koreans at midnight. It's not like you have to play at 4am KST or 4am US time. 4am is probally the worst time possible, making it a few hours later would be a huge improvement, making it a few hours earlier would be a huge improvement. Unless you believe anything but that exact time is intolerable for americans, I don't see how you could say that.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:36:17
August 12 2011 11:30 GMT
#205
On August 12 2011 20:15 Hardigan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:55 Zandar wrote:
I might be missing something, but why is it so tough to schedule games with Koreans on normal times anyway?

KO vs EU, let them play in EU morning, which is KO evening.
US vs KO, let them play in KO morning, which is US evening
US vs EU, let them play in US morning, which is EU evening.

That way nobody has to play during night hours, for every 2 spots in the world there's always a time of the day people at both spots are awake, even if the time difference is 12 hours, since you only sleep 8 on average?

-If they want to commentate the games while they are happening then the commentators and staff would have to stay up 24 h a day
-If they want to make it all live: The players could be cheating
-If they want to cast it from replays: lower viewership because it just feels not as exciting.

The solution in my opinion: 3*2 casters world wide:
2 commentators in NA
2 commentators in EU
2 commentators in Korea (or that timezone)

They will cast it live and send the file to NASL HQ where they can edit it.
That way the NA-NASL stuff doesn't have to be up 24h/day and the Koreans can play the games on good times


Ultimately, the player's schedules should take priority. If you're holding a tournament involving international players, you have to accommodate them in some way. And the excuse of the games not being live is crap. The broadcast already isn't even live, so it doesn't really matter. And replay-casted tournaments like TSL and IPL (? not sure about this) do just fine.

On August 12 2011 20:27 StUfF wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:25 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:16 bRuTaL!! wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.


If it fits the other player then yes. But *gasp* tolerable times for Koreans are intolerable for others. Since its NA league, I think its fair for Koreans to be the ones that have to adjust.


You may not realize this, but *gasp* it IS possible to schedule games at times that are tolerable for BOTH players involved. AMAZING!


But guess what? NASL don't. They don't even try. They have a set scheduled time and thats it, they don't vary depending on what locations/regions/countries/timezones players are currently residing in.


Yeah, and it's something that NASL should have definitely changed to accommodate the Koreans players, having the games played at reasonable times for them.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
August 12 2011 11:33 GMT
#206
On August 12 2011 20:25 Elefanto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:08 Jibba wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:31 superbabosheki wrote:
1. waking up at a odd time once a week is not a horrific condtion


If it's difficult, and it begins to affect their performance in other tournaments, then dropping out seems like a wise option.



I think no one can argue against that, but how the drop out happened, was, to put it frankly, without any form of respect and in a hostile manner.

Agreed completely.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:37:14
August 12 2011 11:35 GMT
#207
On August 12 2011 20:28 SKC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:16 bRuTaL!! wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.


If it fits the other player then yes. But *gasp* tolerable times for Koreans are intolerable for others. Since its NA league, I think its fair for Koreans to be the ones that have to adjust.


No, decent korean times are not intolerable for the others, that's just silly. If playing in the evening in the US makes koreans play at 4am, pushing the time back 4 hours would mean americans would still play at a good time and koreans at midnight. It's not like you have to play at 4am KST or 4am US time. 4am is probally the worst time possible, making it a few hours later would be a huge improvement, making it a few hours earlier would be a huge improvement. Unless you believe anything but that exact time is intolerable for americans, I don't see how you could say that.

The problem is that they cast games in succession (which is what led to them spoiling their own games during casts), so directly after an AM-KR match, there might be an AM-EU or EU-KR match. There is not time that will be suitable for every group.

Again, this is the result of NASL's casting system. It's strange because they actually made exceptions to this in situations where there were different caster teams, but apparently adjust the times is too much.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 11:37 GMT
#208
On August 12 2011 20:35 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:28 SKC wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:16 bRuTaL!! wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.


If it fits the other player then yes. But *gasp* tolerable times for Koreans are intolerable for others. Since its NA league, I think its fair for Koreans to be the ones that have to adjust.


No, decent korean times are not intolerable for the others, that's just silly. If playing in the evening in the US makes koreans play at 4am, pushing the time back 4 hours would mean americans would still play at a good time and koreans at midnight. It's not like you have to play at 4am KST or 4am US time. 4am is probally the worst time possible, making it a few hours later would be a huge improvement, making it a few hours earlier would be a huge improvement. Unless you believe anything but that exact time is intolerable for americans, I don't see how you could say that.

The problem is that they cast games in succession (which is what led to them spoiling their own games during casts), so directly after an AM-KR match, there might be an AM-EU or EU-KR match. There is not time that will be suitable for every group.

Again, this is the result of NASL's casting system.


Sounds like a bad system that should be changed. Unfortunately, NASL doesn't seem to be willing to make such obvious changes.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
nam nam
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden4672 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:43:00
August 12 2011 11:41 GMT
#209
Why can't they just cast the group matches from replays then? At worst we'd have sync issues. It's not like the current system provides any real benefits other than the casters being oblivious about who won.
SKC
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil18828 Posts
August 12 2011 11:43 GMT
#210
On August 12 2011 20:35 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:28 SKC wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:16 bRuTaL!! wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:13 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:11 bRuTaL!! wrote:


What the can hell NASL do about those conditions? Bend laws of physics so that there are no timezones. Eliminate lag somehow?


They could *gasp* Schedule games to be played at a tolerable time for the Koreans and not 4AM.


If it fits the other player then yes. But *gasp* tolerable times for Koreans are intolerable for others. Since its NA league, I think its fair for Koreans to be the ones that have to adjust.


No, decent korean times are not intolerable for the others, that's just silly. If playing in the evening in the US makes koreans play at 4am, pushing the time back 4 hours would mean americans would still play at a good time and koreans at midnight. It's not like you have to play at 4am KST or 4am US time. 4am is probally the worst time possible, making it a few hours later would be a huge improvement, making it a few hours earlier would be a huge improvement. Unless you believe anything but that exact time is intolerable for americans, I don't see how you could say that.

The problem is that they cast games in succession (which is what led to them spoiling their own games during casts), so directly after an AM-KR match, there might be an AM-EU or EU-KR match. There is not time that will be suitable for every group.

Again, this is the result of NASL's casting system. It's strange because they actually made exceptions to this in situations where there were different caster teams, but apparently adjust the times is too much.


Yes, I know that they would have to change the system, but that should be a good thing. I don't understand what's that great about the current system. I was responding more to the fact that stating that making it better for the koreans would make the time intorelable for everyone else is just plain silly. It's a matter of organization, but not because of the timezones. Koreans themselfs said they liked the way other tournaments ran it much better, and I don't think we as spectators even noticed that many benefits on the system NASL uses.
tripper688
Profile Joined January 2011
United States569 Posts
August 12 2011 11:46 GMT
#211
On August 12 2011 16:55 yoshi_yoshi wrote:
I'm going to have to side with NASL on this one.

All the Korean complaints are reasonable, but it looks like they waited until NASL season 2 was all set up before they made their demands. They tried to get as much leverage as they can:
- grouping up as a unit under SC2CON
- qualifying their players for NASL season 2, meaning it would be a big burden to NASL to lose all these players

All their complaints are publicly known for a while now. If they had made the negotiations before season 2 qualifiers, they knew they would have a lot less leverage.


Gonna have to side with the Koreans on this one...They complained during preparation for season 2. It's not like they were playing and stopped mid season. If NASL had actually bothered to get a contract hammered out when it needed to get done, the Koreans would have no leverage at all. Signing up for qualifiers only means you committed $5 or $10 for the entrance fee. Whether or not you wish to play is still your call. It's up to the organizers to get you a contract and/or have contingencies should players be unable to play for whatever reason.
"Excuse me I gotta do some vacuuming really fast *vrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm*" Day[9]
Shinobi1982
Profile Joined January 2011
1605 Posts
August 12 2011 11:46 GMT
#212
On August 12 2011 20:03 Flash_one wrote:
4. There was video of thewind where he said that he had to stay all nite up waiting for NASL's reply http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/gomcam/

Thx for the link, I ended up watching the whole video (2 parts).
Train like an animal, eat like a horse, sleep like a baby, grow like a weed.
deerpark87
Profile Joined January 2011
760 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:48:14
August 12 2011 11:47 GMT
#213
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253970

read this before any more post. the OP started out with a bias and horrible translation.
awu25
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2003 Posts
August 12 2011 11:51 GMT
#214
On August 12 2011 20:24 ineq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:15 Kemy wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:47 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:41 Fangzhou wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


Why do so many people say it's only $1000 instead of $2000??

You realize if they don't participate in the tournament, they are not getting the $1000 in prize money anyways... If they withdraw from NASL, they get $0 dollars from NASL. It's a minimum of $2000 more than what they would have gotten from not entering the tournament no matter how you want to look at it.


Because it IS only a 1000 dollar stipend that they're offering. You don't get a "minimum 2000". You have to pay your own way to the tournament, which they're expecting the Koreans to pay out of their own pocket after the 1000. They're expecting them to use the prize money to cover their expenses.

And competing in the NASL DOES have the cost of making them get up at odd hours for 3 months. And competing at a latency disadvantage on top of that. It's a combination of all these factors and more that makes it not worth it.


It may be only a 1000 dollar stipend but if you're a player that decides whether to participate in a tournament or not from a cost/income point of view you have to consider prize money as well.

If prize money + stipend > travel cost = worth it

Honestly, I'd prefer players getting paid through prize money only which is equal for every player participating in the tournament than paying different sums to cover travel costs depending on where players come from. I don't see why Koreans should be treated better than anyone else. Europeans and even North Americans may have high travel costs too depending on where they live and (as far as I understand) they don't get as much money.

Waking up a little bit early isn't that much of a deal and how is NASL supposed to fix latency disadvantages -.-


You are, in my opinion, right. For the most part.

I don't agree with "If prize money + stipend > travel cost = worth it". Teams are in place to make sure players show up at events and promote their sponsors, why else would someone sponsor a team? They are given money by companies to make sure that their players promote these companies, use that money for this purpose.

I've said this earlier aswell but; If the Korean teams don't have enough money to send their players, well then that sucks. But no blame should be put on the organizers, in this case the NASL.

As for schedule; how is waking up at 3-4am ONCE a week when you're OCCUPATION is playing sc2 hard or inconvinient? Adjust your sleeping schedule to that of someone who is working a fulltime job and it's not even noticable. How is it not worth it? I have a really hard time understanding the logic, feels more like excuses because they want the NASL to pay their trips.

Or, they just do not understand how the rest of the world works over there in their little bubble. Which i've felt many times before.

If I gave you the opportunity to wake up at 3 AM once a week so you could do work, and I would pay you at a standard rate. Based on your performance, you would have the opportunity to get more money. However, there is a small chance that your work server may be down during these times and you would have to sit there for several hours waiting for it to come back up. Would you take this opportunity?

I definitely would not. The koreans are already practicing 10+ hours a day. Waking up at 3 AM just to play a game is tiring and to them it's not worth it. So they have decided to not participate. I don't see how this is a "they just do not understand how the rest of the world works". I'm pretty sure they practice the most in the world.
tripper688
Profile Joined January 2011
United States569 Posts
August 12 2011 11:51 GMT
#215
On August 12 2011 20:25 Elefanto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:08 Jibba wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:31 superbabosheki wrote:
1. waking up at a odd time once a week is not a horrific condtion


If it's difficult, and it begins to affect their performance in other tournaments, then dropping out seems like a wise option.



I think no one can argue against that, but how the drop out happened, was, to put it frankly, without any form of respect and in a hostile manner.


Apparently the Koreans have been complaining since preparation for season 2 began but things never got finished until they finally said enough is a enough and pulled out. Not sure who to blame more for that but it's not like the Koreans just one day woke up and said, hey, let's be total scumbags and screw NASL out of 30% of their players.
"Excuse me I gotta do some vacuuming really fast *vrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm*" Day[9]
WArped
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom4845 Posts
August 12 2011 11:58 GMT
#216
All of this reminds me of something I read on the TL NASL recap.

I’m sure some players in North America (and Europe, and Latin America) will be inspired to train hard and develop more institutional infrastructure to support Starcraft 2 because of the opportunity to play against Koreans presented by the NASL. (And don’t forget their sponsors, whose players will now be competing in a premiere league broadcast all over the world -- don’t fail to note that as more top Koreans enter the league, the critique that the NASL has a less talented player base loses its relevance.) It’s not that the NASL is becoming a “Korean” league -- it’s becoming a league with great players. For many years, that was synonymous with “Korean,” and due to the structure of the system, it involved physically being in Korea, but not anymore. Rather than work on integrating foreigners into the Korean pro-scene, the NASL addresses the issue from the opposite direction, creating an international league in which Korean pros may play. (Of course, it must be noted that the two approaches are in no way exclusive.) As the NASL develops, it’s going to provide an opportunity for the potential development of great players from all around the world. Which will lead to a larger and better developed Starcraft community; isn’t that what we all want?


Shame that was all for nothing.
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
August 12 2011 12:01 GMT
#217
On August 12 2011 20:47 deerpark87 wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253970

read this before any more post. the OP started out with a bias and horrible translation.


I think this post needs to be highlighted for everyone to see.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 12:07 GMT
#218
On August 12 2011 19:28 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:09 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:06 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:00 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:58 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:51 superbabosheki wrote:
Are they really serious? In Korea they get to play in a tournament once a month, where the majority of players will end up getting little to no money(ro32 code s, all of code a). NASL is offering a chance at $50,0000 over a 3 day weekend while guaranteeing $2000(already higher than winning code A), for participating in a league where you play early in the day once a week.

The Koreans that make it to the finals are given a realistic shot of making really good money, gaining exposure, being given the opportunity to travel and meet a huge fanbase, and SC2con is throwing out the most ridiculous demands.

And yet they send Koreans to MLG where first place gives 10% as much as the NASL, and the scheduling is much more grueling/prone to change. There is no investment in flying over to play in the NASL finals, they will pretty much break even no matter what, and getting a percentage deducted from a HUGE prizepool isn't a big deal.

I had no plans to watch the NASL season regardless of this, but this will really discourage me from attending the finals T_T


Not ''$50,000 in 3 days'', it is ''the possibility of getting to the finals in 3 months ''.

Hey yo, I said "chance at $50K." Hey yo, it's not 3 months, it's 10 days of play. Hey yo, try fact checking yo.

On August 12 2011 19:00 bearhug wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


But can you explain why Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc?

Because they wanted to travel, compete, have a good chance at winning money, and meet fans? Oh wait they can do that at NASL too, with even more money.

The only thing NASL really needs to change is their piece of shit tournament system. At the very least they need to implement double elimination, but they SHOULD put players into groups.



Did Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, provide them more money than NASL?


... obviously not. $100,000 total prize pool.

A security deposit is basically just money that you'll never lose as long as you follow the rules, and they only have to play once a week for ten weeks which is to my knowledge 1x10 = 10 days of play. It's not like they are playing for 3 months straight holy shit people think before you post.

I don't even like NASL and I'm having to defend them from people that have no clue what they are talking about.


You mean the security deposit which haven't been paid back to the players who stuck to the rules?

And the rules say it will be paid within 60 days after the end of season if I recall NASL statement. Was it 60 days ?
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 12:12 GMT
#219
On August 12 2011 19:47 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:41 Fangzhou wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


Why do so many people say it's only $1000 instead of $2000??

You realize if they don't participate in the tournament, they are not getting the $1000 in prize money anyways... If they withdraw from NASL, they get $0 dollars from NASL. It's a minimum of $2000 more than what they would have gotten from not entering the tournament no matter how you want to look at it.


Because it IS only a 1000 dollar stipend that they're offering. You don't get a "minimum 2000". You have to pay your own way to the tournament, which they're expecting the Koreans to pay out of their own pocket after the 1000. They're expecting them to use the prize money to cover their expenses.

And competing in the NASL DOES have the cost of making them get up at odd hours for 3 months. And competing at a latency disadvantage on top of that. It's a combination of all these factors and more that makes it not worth it.

And what is wrong about using prize money ? That prize money is guaranteed. Your semantic nitpicking is irrelevant.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 12:16:28
August 12 2011 12:14 GMT
#220
On August 12 2011 21:12 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:47 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:41 Fangzhou wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


Why do so many people say it's only $1000 instead of $2000??

You realize if they don't participate in the tournament, they are not getting the $1000 in prize money anyways... If they withdraw from NASL, they get $0 dollars from NASL. It's a minimum of $2000 more than what they would have gotten from not entering the tournament no matter how you want to look at it.


Because it IS only a 1000 dollar stipend that they're offering. You don't get a "minimum 2000". You have to pay your own way to the tournament, which they're expecting the Koreans to pay out of their own pocket after the 1000. They're expecting them to use the prize money to cover their expenses.

And competing in the NASL DOES have the cost of making them get up at odd hours for 3 months. And competing at a latency disadvantage on top of that. It's a combination of all these factors and more that makes it not worth it.

And what is wrong about using prize money ? That prize money is guaranteed. Your semantic nitpicking is irrelevant.


Because that's using the player's own prize money for expenses. Prize money can't and shouldn't be considered a stipend.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 12:20 GMT
#221
On August 12 2011 21:14 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 21:12 mcc wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:47 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:41 Fangzhou wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:39 LuciferSC wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:38 Scereye wrote:
So, the main reason is the cost of tickets/lodging...

First they state $500 = Half the cost of the ticket
When they get offered $1000 Bucks per player (Ticket solved) and an edited prizepool (so every player at grand final gets an additional min. $1000 (solves the lodging i guess...?). And they are still not satisfied?

Sorry but dont come up with arguments, i understand the schedule for the games is horrible for Koreans. But its not like NASL wouldnt pay shit...

Other then that i totally understand the Desicion of the Korean teams.


No NASL offered $1000 bucks per player and that's it.

They did not offer $2000, as $1000 of that is a part of the prize money that players are supposed to get. Therefore, the other $1000 of that $2000 is money coming out of the player's pocket.

And no $1000 does not cover the air flight ticket.


Why do so many people say it's only $1000 instead of $2000??

You realize if they don't participate in the tournament, they are not getting the $1000 in prize money anyways... If they withdraw from NASL, they get $0 dollars from NASL. It's a minimum of $2000 more than what they would have gotten from not entering the tournament no matter how you want to look at it.


Because it IS only a 1000 dollar stipend that they're offering. You don't get a "minimum 2000". You have to pay your own way to the tournament, which they're expecting the Koreans to pay out of their own pocket after the 1000. They're expecting them to use the prize money to cover their expenses.

And competing in the NASL DOES have the cost of making them get up at odd hours for 3 months. And competing at a latency disadvantage on top of that. It's a combination of all these factors and more that makes it not worth it.

And what is wrong about using prize money ? That prize money is guaranteed. Your semantic nitpicking is irrelevant.


Because that's using the player's own prize money for expenses. Prize money can't and shouldn't be considered a stipend.

It is not a stipend it is a prize. It is still money that guarantees that if player will decide to participate he(as part of his team) will not be in negative balance after the finals. Yes it can cause some problems in team-player splitting of the costs, but that is problem of the agreement between players and teams, it has no bearing on the fact that the player will have positive balance after the finals.
jimbob615
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Uruguay455 Posts
August 12 2011 12:35 GMT
#222
i would be happy to see all koreans banned permanently from every future NASL event
SKC
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil18828 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 12:38:10
August 12 2011 12:37 GMT
#223
On August 12 2011 21:35 jimbob615 wrote:
i would be happy to see all koreans banned permanently from every future NASL event


Yes, that would be such a mature and reasonable resolution to this situation. How come can someone even consider something like this? Not even mentioning the fact that some koreans are still playing on it.
CScythe
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada810 Posts
August 12 2011 12:46 GMT
#224
Seems fair. NASL isn't as big as MLG or Blizzcon in terms of overall notoriety. And with having to sacrifice so much practice time to travel to USA I'm not surprised Korean teams are withdrawing.

Also just because Korean teams are withdrawing doesn't mean Korean players don't want to participate. There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion...

It's just, the choice was made. NASL is more like IPL now and is that really a bad thing?
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
August 12 2011 12:48 GMT
#225
Why the rush to translate? This translation isn't even complete (some points are left out). There are plenty of translators here who take care of SC2 issues and we don't need someone with poor language skills and emotion-induced bias to raise more drama here. I'd suggest people hold their opinion until a better translation is done.
[TLMS] REBOOT
thehitman
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1105 Posts
August 12 2011 12:58 GMT
#226
Why are the Koreans special? Why don't Europeans or Canadians get free travel, free accommodations and free meals?

Heck why don't everyone, even ones in the US get $2000.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 13:00 GMT
#227
On August 12 2011 21:46 CScythe wrote:
Seems fair. NASL isn't as big as MLG or Blizzcon in terms of overall notoriety. And with having to sacrifice so much practice time to travel to USA I'm not surprised Korean teams are withdrawing.

Also just because Korean teams are withdrawing doesn't mean Korean players don't want to participate. There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion...

It's just, the choice was made. NASL is more like IPL now and is that really a bad thing?


An IPL in which you have to pay for HQ and VODs. And still has Gretorp casting despite so much negative feedback. Yeah, IPL is better at this point.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25974 Posts
August 12 2011 13:01 GMT
#228
I'd side with NASL on this one so far. The Koreans come off whiny. Just say frankly it's not worth it and then be done with it, don't blame NASL.
Moderator
bucckevin
Profile Joined April 2011
858 Posts
August 12 2011 13:01 GMT
#229
Where do they find $1000 flight tickets to America/Canada from Asia? I don't know how much you guys travel but from my experience, it's at least $1500-2000. Then you have to add lodging expenses. Unless the Koreans make some money(2k+) out of it, I can see why they wouldn't want to participate... having to get up in the morning to play games for 10 weeks and then have to pay money out of your pocket at a chance to win.
justinpal
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3810 Posts
August 12 2011 13:29 GMT
#230
I wouldn't care if this came immediately after they received the contracts, which I'm assuming was around the qualifiers (before or after). I have no problem with players denying an invite to the tournament, but going through the qualifiers and waiting to the last second to say "This is sooo unfair!" is a move a 10 year old makes the day before Little League or something.
Never make a hydralisk.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38797 Posts
August 12 2011 13:41 GMT
#231
The price pool is around 85 000 dollar. Fact is that the biggest chunk of that money will go to Koreans, if this committee would make a "pact" that the 3 best placed Korean would pay the extra cost for the other Koreans who used more than the 2000$ on this trip, then they would end up with a shitload of money for playing SCII. Even compared to GSL.

I hope that a couple Koreans in Korea still want to participate.
I had a good night of sleep.
leakingpear
Profile Joined March 2006
United Kingdom302 Posts
August 12 2011 13:42 GMT
#232
On August 12 2011 22:01 Chill wrote:
I'd side with NASL on this one so far. The Koreans come off whiny. Just say frankly it's not worth it and then be done with it, don't blame NASL.


WHAT?! Koreans unnecessarily xenophobic towards foreign enterprises? WELL I NEVER.
howLiN
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Portugal1676 Posts
August 12 2011 13:43 GMT
#233
On August 12 2011 18:50 centinel4 wrote:
To make a comparison to european football UEFA. There should be a central organizations with representatives of every major tournament (at this point ESL, NASL, MLG, GSL among others i might miss) like the UEFA in europe to organize all european leagues.
Coordinate schedules of major events. and play these locally (tournaments for only americans, only europeans and only koreans). then once a month or 2 months play a Champions League, where the top 4 of each league compete. Maybe in europe (more central for everyone unless u are in the West US coast).
I think something like WSCF (World Starcraft Federation) should exist in order to make SC global. otherwise that will not happen or at least not in a large scale.

I would LOVE to see this. With that organization we could have a championship of country teams competing for a "World Cup".
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
August 12 2011 13:44 GMT
#234
On August 12 2011 22:42 leakingpear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:01 Chill wrote:
I'd side with NASL on this one so far. The Koreans come off whiny. Just say frankly it's not worth it and then be done with it, don't blame NASL.


WHAT?! Koreans unnecessarily xenophobic towards foreign enterprises? WELL I NEVER.

Outside of NASL have any Koreans said a single negative thing about their reception or experience in foreign tournaments that they have attended? Were they not all incredibly thankful and said they would love to come back whenever they are invited?
shell
Profile Joined October 2010
Portugal2722 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 13:48:57
August 12 2011 13:48 GMT
#235
On August 12 2011 22:01 Chill wrote:
I'd side with NASL on this one so far. The Koreans come off whiny. Just say frankly it's not worth it and then be done with it, don't blame NASL.


My point also.. If they don't want then don't do it.

NASL should have up to ten koreans! There is allready a GSL ffs!

Foreigners versus Koreans is not meant to be 30 Koreans vs 10 foreigners!


Hope they do a new qualifier for all the foreigners plus koreans there are willing to participate!
BENFICA || Besties: idra, Stephano, Nestea, Jaedong, Serral, Jinro, Scarlett || Zerg <3
Technique
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands1542 Posts
August 12 2011 13:48 GMT
#236
What they haven't given back the security deposit?
If you think you're good, you suck. If you think you suck, you're getting better.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 13:53:16
August 12 2011 13:52 GMT
#237
On August 12 2011 22:48 Technique wrote:
What they haven't given back the security deposit?


They seem to prefer taking their sweet time in doing so or something.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
AdamBanks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada996 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:00:26
August 12 2011 13:57 GMT
#238
On August 12 2011 21:35 jimbob615 wrote:
i would be happy to see all koreans banned permanently from every future NASL event


Go for it and this will most likely be the last NASL event.

well prolly not as i still dont understand where they get their funding for this. w/e last event for me and people who enjoy watching the most skilled players.
I wrote a song once.
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
August 12 2011 13:58 GMT
#239
On August 12 2011 22:01 Chill wrote:
I'd side with NASL on this one so far. The Koreans come off whiny. Just say frankly it's not worth it and then be done with it, don't blame NASL.



I agree with Chill. And Id also like all the people who are like "Im not gonna watch the NASL since the koreans arent in it. NASL is stupid now" to please knock it off.
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
AdamBanks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada996 Posts
August 12 2011 14:02 GMT
#240
On August 12 2011 22:58 DyEnasTy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:01 Chill wrote:
I'd side with NASL on this one so far. The Koreans come off whiny. Just say frankly it's not worth it and then be done with it, don't blame NASL.



I agree with Chill. And Id also like all the people who are like "Im not gonna watch the NASL since the koreans arent in it. NASL is stupid now" to please knock it off.



NASL has made questionable decisions since it started. I'll gladly stop posting about it for now but it doesnt change the fact that they are losing MONEY from the many people such as myself who, in the past, were thinking about supporting season 2.
I wrote a song once.
Tortious_Tortoise
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States944 Posts
August 12 2011 14:05 GMT
#241
I think Korea thinks they deserve more than the foreign community insofar as special treatment. They have 4 token Swedes in the GSL, sure, but it's wrong for them to demand a full-expenses paid trip to LA for the grand finals. They should be happy they have the opportunity to compete for this kind of money. NASL grand finals winner gets about the same amount of money as Code S champion, so it's a little ridiculous that KR is throwing a hissy fit over $250 deposits and ~$1k travel expenses. Even East-Coast American and European players will pay the travel expenses to the Grand finals. The best part is that NASL tried to accommodate the demands of the Koreans, but, again, they decided they were too good for NASL.

I guess all I can say is EGPuMa hwaighting!
Treating eSports as a social science since 2011; Credo: "The system is never wrong"-- Day9 Daily #400 Part 3
thehitman
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1105 Posts
August 12 2011 14:15 GMT
#242
On August 12 2011 23:02 AdamBanks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:58 DyEnasTy wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:01 Chill wrote:
I'd side with NASL on this one so far. The Koreans come off whiny. Just say frankly it's not worth it and then be done with it, don't blame NASL.



I agree with Chill. And Id also like all the people who are like "Im not gonna watch the NASL since the koreans arent in it. NASL is stupid now" to please knock it off.



NASL has made questionable decisions since it started. I'll gladly stop posting about it for now but it doesnt change the fact that they are losing MONEY from the many people such as myself who, in the past, were thinking about supporting season 2.

Hey man I don't like NASL as well. I thought season one was very amateurish, they made the later series very complicated and way too long, but it doesn't mean the Koreans are right on this.

If anything I would pull the contracts and sue the Koreans for breaching the terms of the contract. Why did they sign the contracts in the first place? If it was too much for them, then why quality and now ruin a tournament?

Plus NASL still has the NA, Canadians, Europeans and people from other countries.

But yeah, if I was NASL I would totally sue the Koreans for breaching their contracts and causing financial and production damages!
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:22:19
August 12 2011 14:19 GMT
#243
On August 12 2011 23:05 mbr2321 wrote:
I think Korea thinks they deserve more than the foreign community insofar as special treatment. They have 4 token Swedes in the GSL, sure, but it's wrong for them to demand a full-expenses paid trip to LA for the grand finals. They should be happy they have the opportunity to compete for this kind of money. NASL grand finals winner gets about the same amount of money as Code S champion, so it's a little ridiculous that KR is throwing a hissy fit over $250 deposits and ~$1k travel expenses. Even East-Coast American and European players will pay the travel expenses to the Grand finals. The best part is that NASL tried to accommodate the demands of the Koreans, but, again, they decided they were too good for NASL.

I guess all I can say is EGPuMa hwaighting!


If you don't have the money to send players abroad as a team, you don't have the money. It's that simple.

Foreign team seem to be much more stable, financially speaking, then the korean teams, and they have sponsors that care about exposure at events like these, unlike the korean teams. This is also why the SK/Complexity deals are taking place. Korean teams (and Gom) are betting on a real korean scene, and it's just not there yet.

Keep in mind we've only heard one side of the story so far. If the sc2con comes with a press statement saying that they decided to pull their players out, because they wouldn't be able to send them to the eventual finals if they qualified, I'd be perfectly capable of understanding that. The NASL might simply not be economically viable for koreans to participate comfortably in.

All of that doesn't change that this sc2con organisation seems dodgy as hell, and that it's just stupid of them to issue blanket statements like this for all their players and all their teams. If, for example, MC wanted to play after all and his team (or he himself) were willing to cover the costs, he should be able to. The same goes for any korean pro that's part of a sc2con team and is capable of financing it somehow.
.Mystic
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada486 Posts
August 12 2011 14:21 GMT
#244
hmm hard to say... people should realize this is a 10 week online ongoing tournament, and games are played early morning in korea. For 10 weeks of games, and considering the final ro32 is a 3 day lan event, can't blame em for demanding travel expenses and no deposits, like how mlg and gomtv operates for their invitees.

I still don't understand why a deposit is needed in sc2 tournament... Remember NASL is 10 weeks, i quit watching after the first week. Ask yourself, after playing 10 weeks in an online tournament would you want to pay travel expenses if you made the ro16/32 whichever one they use, unless sponsors pay for it.
Maghetti
Profile Joined May 2008
United States2429 Posts
August 12 2011 14:25 GMT
#245
Honestly they could just chip in to send like, Bomber, MMA, and Losira or something like that and just take home all the prize money and split it among the teams lol.
Equity213
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada873 Posts
August 12 2011 14:29 GMT
#246
I really hope SC2 grows as large as the poker scene. Can you imagine something like this happening with WSOP?
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 14:30 GMT
#247
On August 12 2011 23:15 thehitman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:02 AdamBanks wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:58 DyEnasTy wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:01 Chill wrote:
I'd side with NASL on this one so far. The Koreans come off whiny. Just say frankly it's not worth it and then be done with it, don't blame NASL.



I agree with Chill. And Id also like all the people who are like "Im not gonna watch the NASL since the koreans arent in it. NASL is stupid now" to please knock it off.



NASL has made questionable decisions since it started. I'll gladly stop posting about it for now but it doesnt change the fact that they are losing MONEY from the many people such as myself who, in the past, were thinking about supporting season 2.

Hey man I don't like NASL as well. I thought season one was very amateurish, they made the later series very complicated and way too long, but it doesn't mean the Koreans are right on this.

If anything I would pull the contracts and sue the Koreans for breaching the terms of the contract. Why did they sign the contracts in the first place? If it was too much for them, then why quality and now ruin a tournament?

Plus NASL still has the NA, Canadians, Europeans and people from other countries.

But yeah, if I was NASL I would totally sue the Koreans for breaching their contracts and causing financial and production damages!


Read the topic. They didn't sign any contracts for Season 2.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Novalisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Israel1818 Posts
August 12 2011 14:34 GMT
#248
$500 deposit is ridiculous.
/commercial
epik640x
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1134 Posts
August 12 2011 14:50 GMT
#249
lol NASL is asking too much. If their budget can't afford this they better be ready to suffer the consequences.
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:54:36
August 12 2011 14:53 GMT
#250
I don't think this person actually has any more or less idea of what is the reason behind this mess than the posters on here do. It doesn't sound like he knows some inside information, it sounds more like that he is making assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

1) Regarding security deposits...NASL is still within the time frame to deliver them, and is paying them back. They listed people who could vouch that. 60 days is a fairly short time period for a lot of tournaments, including non-SC2 ones. I'm sure the Koreans, having vast experience in tourneys, are aware of this.

2) Regarding the $80...was that 80 charged to their costs that NASL was covering or did they actually force Korean players to open their pocket books and pay the $80? I doubt the latter. I believe all players were flown in, which means EU and NA players were too, and none of them said anything like that. They all seem really happy about the NASL and happy to return.

The Koreans got additional special treatment in comparison to EU players, so I don't think their opinion strays *too* far from the EU players' opinion.

3) As for the hours and server, I remember Xeris saying somewhere that, that would be changed for season 2. It doesn't seem to have been a negotiating point at all. And if it was, it doesn't make sense to bring those up and then ask for more money...it makes more sense to ask for better times and to play on Korean servers.

I think this reporter is making an assumption that, that wasn't changed for season 2, and instead is using the complaints about season 1 as a way to pretend he is aware of the situation.


---------------

Basically I would take this article with a bigger grain of salt. I don't think NASL would outright lie about anything they've said, they invited the SC2Con to respond. I think this article, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be in a position where they have insider info and doesn't seem to understand the situation at all.
Klaent
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden374 Posts
August 12 2011 14:55 GMT
#251
Theres no drama here. It's just lack of money from both sides. NASL could cut the price money in half and pay for the koreans, but that would just be stupid.
Maybe in a couple of seasons NASL has picked up some huge sponsors so they can for everybody comming to the finals.
"On a scale from 1 to Idra, how mad are you right now?" -ROOTDestiny
NASL.tv
Profile Joined April 2011
699 Posts
August 12 2011 15:06 GMT
#252
Would like to respond to some of these points. While not this is not an official statement of SC2Con, it does bring up serious points of contention.

They told that they will pay back it but still players who join the tournament didn't get it. NASL also require more deposit($500) in the next season

1) Our contract states that all prizes//stipend//deposit will be paid and refunded within 60 days of the tournament finish. This contract was signed by every Korean team manager and player that played in Season 1. Further, we have already paid back all the security deposits of Korean teams for Season 1, in addition to the deposits of players who were slated not to return for Season 2.

If anyone doubts this claim -- feel free to contact Artosis, Grubby, Liquid (who paid for the oGs Season 1 deposit), HuK (who paid for Boxer's deposit), Rainbow (who paid his own deposit), and WeMadeFox.

As of yesterday, all these payments were completed, which is still 1 month within our target deadline to send all payments.

Second there were no care about Korean players who join the NASL. Korean top player like Boxer, moon, mc, Nada but they should overcome the parallax and they had terrible condiction to play game and schedule was changed and it made things worse.

2) The Korean players were made very well aware of our schedule before Season 1. Players were expected to wake up once per week to play a match at 4-8am. The schedule for Season 2 was even slightly adjusted to make it more bearable for Korean players, with games starting at 2am KST (which we gathered from talking to some Korean players, was a more reasonable time).

The Grand Finall was even worse. Players had to pay all of the bill for transportation, lodging, and meal. NASL gave $500 to each player who join the Grand Final but it just half of tickets and lodging. Some players can slove it to deduction in their prize. Then they can get the ticket and lodging

3) This is completely false. The Korean teams expressed difficulty in attending the Grand Finals, so we offered to buy their tickets for them, and reserve their hotels for them, and arrange shuttle service for them. We spent $1,192 for each of the tickets we bought for Korean players (MC, Zenio, Squirtle, PuMa). Each hotel room cost $350, and the shuttle service to and from LAX airport averaged out to approximately $80 per players. We wrote, and had the letter translated into Korean, that we would be happy to do this for them to solve the problem of attending, and then deduct this from their travel stipends and prize. The four players who we bought tickets for expressly agreed to this. Moon, Boxer, July, and aLive made separate travel arrangements.

Even they get huge benifits to their online bordcasting but they didn't treated well who play in the NASL.

4) Benefit is always two ways. Hosting a league such as this is a mutually beneficial relationship. The league benefits by having the players play, and the players benefit by the amount of exposure playing gives them. Leagues such as the NASL, GSL, and MLG are the avenues in which players can compete and make their names known to the world.

We absolutely love interacting with the Korean players and having them play in our league. We put serious strains on our budget, not only in Season 1, but moving forward in Season 2, to try to accommodate the Koreans so that they can play in our league. We hate to see them withdrawing and this is the last thing we want.

So Korean teams and player require to NASL to remove the deposit and solve the problem about airplane tickets and lodging but they didn't accecpted it

5) We have offered $2,000 per player to attend the finals. We've offered a deal already where we would pay for flights, hotel, and travel (with those fees deducted from earning).
Deshkar
Profile Joined June 2011
Singapore1244 Posts
August 12 2011 15:07 GMT
#253
The Koreans have joined numerous foreign tournaments including recent ones and have shown great interest/enjoyment while attending them. I realized the Koreans only have wide spread issues with the NASL,
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
August 12 2011 15:07 GMT
#254
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.



How do you know this hasn't been resolved in season 2, as it might have been since NASL reps said they would work to resolve the issue?

I think if this was the issue, the sc2con would have asked to have the times changed, not ask for more money. The issue of players not being able to play well because of bad hours isn't resolved by throwing money at the situation.

Also, it seems like Boxer and Nada withdrew because of the hours, yet the rest of the players didn't make the resignations and continued to express a desire to join NASL.

Some players are better than others at working at all hours of the night. I'm sure they would all love to play at convenient hours, but I think many also understand that with such a big difference between California and Korea it's not always possible.

One thing the NASL did do is offer to reschedule games, so if a player could not stay awake because of something they had to do the next day, all they had to do was make a request before their match.


Because of that, I don't think this was a CENTRAL issue to the debate. It might have been in the back of people's minds, but I doubt it was a big reason for this situation.

whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:12:17
August 12 2011 15:11 GMT
#255
On August 13 2011 00:06 NASL.tv wrote:




Thank you for clarifying. I had a feeling that the article was feigning having inside information, and didn't have the facts.

This makes a lot more sense, and I feel like the Koreans are not siding with the points brought up in the article at all.
Sleight
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
2471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:13:35
August 12 2011 15:13 GMT
#256
Why do people take every chance to bash NASL when, if this had happened to TSL, IPL, etc, they would be wildly supporting the tournament?

Are people really so blinded by their dislike of iNc (who doesn't run and is not involved with NASL anymore beyond as a player) that they can't consider NASL for what it has done? You mean one of the best Finals events anyone anywhere has had? Wayyyy better quality games than GSL finals and at least equal to TSL (I thought the Grand Finals was even better).

NASL made very generous offers, as far as I am concerned as a former professional gamer who never had deals half so nice, and the Koreans found them unacceptable. Nuff said. NASL didn't deserve it, Koreans aren't destroying Esports. This stuff happens.
One Love
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
August 12 2011 15:13 GMT
#257
The "manner deposit" was a stupid cash grab to begin with.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
August 12 2011 15:17 GMT
#258
Honestly it's there loss, If you don't want to chance to make 50,000 dollars than I guess you wouldn't be willing to make the trip to the North American Star League. I think top Koreans have no problem making their money back and more so if they decide to show up and play.
I am Godzilla You are Japan
Ponyo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1231 Posts
August 12 2011 15:18 GMT
#259
Thats cool bro, lets see some Foreign scene ownage !
ponyo.848
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
August 12 2011 15:19 GMT
#260
Euh, I don't think anything is anyone's fault- its just a disagreement on what is fair, and what should just be a civil parting.
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
Arcanne
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1519 Posts
August 12 2011 15:20 GMT
#261
a korean is still gonna win the nasl
Professional tech investor, part time DotA scrub | Follow @AllMeasures on Twitter
ArchDC
Profile Joined May 2011
Malaysia1996 Posts
August 12 2011 15:23 GMT
#262
I think the person who translated should heed this person's advice:
"http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253970" as the mod in his wise judgment has edited in.

Always make the context clear, the source, etc. and whether the facts are true, or is this just somebody's opinion?

End of the day, let's stop with the freaking blame games and just work on the solutions. They are plenty of other Koreans who can participate and bring on the Blizzard invitational top performers.

NASL should try and partner w MLG and GSL too. Top 4 in NASL get seeded into MLG pool play, and top 2 get seeded into Code A, etc. NASL finals can be right after one of the MLGs, then overseas competitors (EU/KR/CN, wherever) can take part in both.
seaofsaturn
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States489 Posts
August 12 2011 15:25 GMT
#263
The North American Star League makes this much effort and pays expenses to get Koreans to play in their tournament while the Global Star League makes you come at your own expense, does not let you participate online, and puts you through incredibly difficult qualifiers before you even have a game casted.

Sure they have had technical difficulties before, but how in the hell can anyone in their right mind complain about NASL not being accomidating?
Photoshop is over-powered.
Deshkar
Profile Joined June 2011
Singapore1244 Posts
August 12 2011 15:25 GMT
#264
NASL became IPL 2 ):
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
August 12 2011 15:28 GMT
#265
On August 13 2011 00:25 seaofsaturn wrote:
The North American Star League makes this much effort and pays expenses to get Koreans to play in their tournament while the Global Star League makes you come at your own expense, does not let you participate online, and puts you through incredibly difficult qualifiers before you even have a game casted.

Sure they have had technical difficulties before, but how in the hell can anyone in their right mind complain about NASL not being accomidating?



Thats how I see it as well.
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
denzelz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States604 Posts
August 12 2011 15:28 GMT
#266
On August 13 2011 00:25 seaofsaturn wrote:
The North American Star League makes this much effort and pays expenses to get Koreans to play in their tournament while the Global Star League makes you come at your own expense, does not let you participate online, and puts you through incredibly difficult qualifiers before you even have a game casted.

Sure they have had technical difficulties before, but how in the hell can anyone in their right mind complain about NASL not being accomidating?


Why do people keep making this point? How do you think Naniwa or Thorzain got to play in the GSL recently? They were seeded directly into the Code A tournament without having to go through a brutal Code B qualifier. They are housed and fed at the GOM house for free up to a month.

Do you really believe that NA players have more dedication than Korean players? Tell Idra that he should wake up at 4-8am every few days so that he can play an online game with lag for a chance to buy a $1300 ticket to another country just to have the chance to lose n the round of 16. Do you think he will do it?
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25974 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:37:38
August 12 2011 15:34 GMT
#267
On August 13 2011 00:28 denzelz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:25 seaofsaturn wrote:
The North American Star League makes this much effort and pays expenses to get Koreans to play in their tournament while the Global Star League makes you come at your own expense, does not let you participate online, and puts you through incredibly difficult qualifiers before you even have a game casted.

Sure they have had technical difficulties before, but how in the hell can anyone in their right mind complain about NASL not being accomidating?


Why do people keep making this point? How do you think Naniwa or Thorzain got to play in the GSL recently? They were seeded directly into the Code A tournament without having to go through a brutal Code B qualifier. They are housed and fed at the GOM house for free up to a month.

Do you really believe that NA players have more dedication than Korean players? Tell Idra that he should wake up at 4-8am every few days so that he can play an online game with lag for a chance to buy a $1300 ticket to another country just to have the chance to lose n the round of 16. Do you think he will do it?

Edit: Oh it's by TiG... Oops!
Moderator
zev318
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada4306 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:00:40
August 12 2011 15:55 GMT
#268
On August 13 2011 00:28 denzelz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:25 seaofsaturn wrote:
The North American Star League makes this much effort and pays expenses to get Koreans to play in their tournament while the Global Star League makes you come at your own expense, does not let you participate online, and puts you through incredibly difficult qualifiers before you even have a game casted.

Sure they have had technical difficulties before, but how in the hell can anyone in their right mind complain about NASL not being accomidating?


Why do people keep making this point? How do you think Naniwa or Thorzain got to play in the GSL recently? They were seeded directly into the Code A tournament without having to go through a brutal Code B qualifier. They are housed and fed at the GOM house for free up to a month.

Do you really believe that NA players have more dedication than Korean players? Tell Idra that he should wake up at 4-8am every few days so that he can play an online game with lag for a chance to buy a $1300 ticket to another country just to have the chance to lose n the round of 16. Do you think he will do it?


a month vs 3 days, i wonder what's longer.

he did not say anything about NA players having more dedication, so dont put words in his mouth. check your facts as well, NASL for season 2 would have started at 2am KST, and not 4am anymore, which according to NASL is what Koreans thought was more appropriate.

players would have to wake up early once a week (or sleep late, however u wanna look at it). And no they dont have buy their own tickets, it is paid for.

you have a chance to lose in the 1st round in any tournament, what does that have to do with anything. you could lose 1st round in MLG open bracket, koreans still go. you could lose 1st around in the dreamhack groups, koreans still go. even if the korean did lose in ro16, he breaks even and STILL gets a chance to meet foreign fans for the rest of the weekend and get his name out there, and who knows maybe a foreign company will want to sponsor their team after meeting all these korean players.

i do agree however that nasl has to change their finals event to a double elimination of some sort, single elimination is just dumb.

and the deposit, i dont really have a problem with, it'll make the team and the player more accountable for their actions in the league. it'll make them think twice about "man im tired ill just blow off my NASL match this week cause fuck it i dont care", and they'll actually lose money.
Hdizz
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada93 Posts
August 12 2011 16:04 GMT
#269
We'll just see more koreans joining foreign teams as a result of this. All the easy money is outside of korea and the korean teams aren't willing/don't have the money to send their players out to win it. They're really shooting themselves in the foot here.
xza
Profile Joined November 2010
Singapore1600 Posts
August 12 2011 16:08 GMT
#270
On August 13 2011 01:04 Hdizz wrote:
We'll just see more koreans joining foreign teams as a result of this. All the easy money is outside of korea and the korean teams aren't willing/don't have the money to send their players out to win it. They're really shooting themselves in the foot here.


Foreigners: Just as planned. :D
"What a terrible final. This is why BO3s are horrible. Seriously MKP vs Moon in a final and having it BO3 is like having Mila Kunis naked in your bed and all she'll give you is a HJ with her PJs on. Pffffffffffffffftt." -greatZERG
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1597 Posts
August 12 2011 16:08 GMT
#271
I think it is kind of funny. You play a few bullshit online games. Get to travel to a final where first is 50k(i think that is right), but if you lose you get a free weekend in the USA with friends and other gamers, and lose what $500? Risking $500 for the chance to win 50k is a poker man's dream. Perhaps those numbers aren't perfect, but for a 16man final I'd take those odds myself if I were accepted to the nasl finals even though I'm only masters.

BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 16:14 GMT
#272
I say stop being Ridiculous for most of people. Here is point.

1/ Whether there was miscommunication or not, SC2Con didn't not decide to participate in NASL. As all of You know SC2Con rised in order to protect Player's Right. So why did SC2Con decide not to participate NASL? Simple. Because all of players (or majority) who played in NASL thought its too tough to play in NASL despite Price pool.

So why? Think about it for you some retards who dont know how to think. You can make a lot of 'easy' money (according to some), then why would you not play? Simple. Because its not 'easy' money. A lot of ppl explained why its not 'easy' money, so I wont go on further, but regardless of this article and NASL.tv's official statement, players who participate in NASL last season thought it was just too difficult, and there was not much for players.

Would you not participate Tournament that can guarantee you a lot of money?

Now some of you compared it for GSL, but then I ask you why, WHY did players decide to not play in NASL if its way easier than GSL, and have larger price pool? Are they being arrogant? I think not. They played in TSL where obviously you could tell that they were lagging like ridiculously (Think about MVP vs Adelsoctt, in Xelnaga, I believe. MVP couldnt control his bio at all).

Being Korean, and reading SCll community website (such as Playxp) I can obviously tell that Koreans do not underestimate Foreign Tournament, what they care, however, is that player's environment.

SC2Con made decision, guess what, SC2Con is representation of Players, unlike KesPA, so majority of Players thought they dont 'fit' in NASL. So why did Hero, Puma, and Rain participating? Hero is Liquid team member, Puma is EG, and Rain is Fnatic (also he lives in States I believe).

Even team like MVP, who have partnership with coL, and oGs, who have partnership with Liquid, decide not to participate in NASL, telling us that this wasnt decision made by Gomtv, but from all Korean Teams.
CidO
Profile Joined June 2010
United States695 Posts
August 12 2011 16:14 GMT
#273
Lets break it down into the simple ideas:

1. Teams/Sponsors should be paying for team's travels. Players shouldn't be expected to pay for it. The players themselves are responsible for making sure they have the correct contract measures in place to make sure they can travel or do what they need to do to succeed. It's a job, if you perform at your JOB you get rewarded.

2. The $$$ itself. It's $1300 if i want to travel to Seoul. I'd have to win GSL Code A (which is pretty much impossible for me) to make it worth it. Meanwhile assuming $1300 to travel over to the USA from Korea... NASL gave out $1500 to the top 8.

9 Koreans went to the finals - 3 didn't place in the top 8. So $500 with the $500 stippen means the 3 players (Moon, Boxer and Zenio) in theory wouldn't have made enough if they paid for it themselves. Now I don't know Zenio's team's stance on this, but I can assure you Boxer and Moons sponsors should have no problem paying for that trip. The rest banked.

so the tl;dr is this is just silly, but hey with all of the korean withdraw from the tourney means we'll see a all rest of the world playoffs and main event (huzzah seeing someone like white-ra win it all plz)

:P
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 16:15 GMT
#274
and for Translation , Your translation is extremely offensive and inaccurate, I am going to work on Translation right now.
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
August 12 2011 16:19 GMT
#275
I don't think any Korean has ever came over on their own dime. Not 100% sure on that, don't quote me. :o

Other events usually make a few invites and fly them over... even if a guy like MC can easily just pay the flight out of pocket.

I said it in the other thread... it might be better to put the Koreans in their own division for the online portion (no more waking up early and no more lag). Bring the top 3 of that division to the grand finals. CSN(?) only pays for 4 Korean invitees to MLG. Do anyone really think a start up like NASL can pay for potentially 16? They actually even tried to when under the time pressure and ultimatum. I think refusing will give them more time to come up with a more reasonable solution that won't break their bank.

But I think, with Koreans on foreign teams and even some Koreans moving over to the west, like TanDongHo and Artist, they won't have too much trouble having a few Koreans sprinkled in to their league.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1597 Posts
August 12 2011 16:19 GMT
#276
On August 13 2011 01:14 CidO wrote:
Lets break it down into the simple ideas:

1. Teams/Sponsors should be paying for team's travels. Players shouldn't be expected to pay for it. The players themselves are responsible for making sure they have the correct contract measures in place to make sure they can travel or do what they need to do to succeed. It's a job, if you perform at your JOB you get rewarded.

2. The $$$ itself. It's $1300 if i want to travel to Seoul. I'd have to win GSL Code A (which is pretty much impossible for me) to make it worth it. Meanwhile assuming $1300 to travel over to the USA from Korea... NASL gave out $1500 to the top 8.

9 Koreans went to the finals - 3 didn't place in the top 8. So $500 with the $500 stippen means the 3 players (Moon, Boxer and Zenio) in theory wouldn't have made enough if they paid for it themselves. Now I don't know Zenio's team's stance on this, but I can assure you Boxer and Moons sponsors should have no problem paying for that trip. The rest banked.

so the tl;dr is this is just silly, but hey with all of the korean withdraw from the tourney means we'll see a all rest of the world playoffs and main event (huzzah seeing someone like white-ra win it all plz)



So, with what you posted it is a $300 dollar risk to have the possibility of taking first place?
I laugh at anyone who doesn't show up or participate for NASL.
Also even if NASL covered nothing for 9-16 risking 1300 for a first place is worth it as well.

Think about the tournament as a whole as well.
Play bullshit online games
Risk a bit of cash to participate in a 2 day finals
???
Profit
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33211 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:25:56
August 12 2011 16:24 GMT
#277
Considering that the writer of the article is on the advisory board of s2con.... I'm not inclined to believe that he is very unbiased -_-

Honestly, since I have heard that s2con has no desire to write an official statement themselves, it just looks like they're using the media to do their dirty slander work while they stay clear of taking on any official position themselves.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
highsis
Profile Joined August 2011
259 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:27:40
August 12 2011 16:26 GMT
#278
I never posted on TL.net but this ill will posed by OP forces me to write my first post.


I'M VERY ANGRY. Your poor language skills doesn't forbid you from posting a thread, but anyone who can speak Korean can see that your translation is extremely biased because you didn't even bother translating parts where it explains NASL's misdoings.

Folks, LISTEN. THIS TRANSLATION IS NOT ONLY POOR(it doesn't matter as long as it's comprehensible) but IT IS EXTREMELY INACCURATE.

OP decided to post his own version of the article.

I request some measure from TL staffs.


Mastermind
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada7096 Posts
August 12 2011 16:26 GMT
#279
It is really unfortunate that the Korean sc2 teams are struggling this badly with finances. I hope the scene over there starts to pick up soon. Either that or more foreign teams need to steal more Korean players.
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
August 12 2011 16:37 GMT
#280
It's kind of sad to hear that most of the Korean teams/players had to have their deposits paid for by foreign teams and players during season 1. Is the economy of SC2 really that bad in Korea?

And it sucks that sc2con is going to keep players like MC, who could probably afford to play, from playing.
DjSpectre
Profile Joined February 2011
United States62 Posts
August 12 2011 16:39 GMT
#281
I have a few thoughts on the aforementioned article (thanks for the rough translation though :D )

First off: this isn't Korea.

They shouldn't be expecting the same thing they got over there. They should know that this league was new and that they have a chance to help eSports with their attendance, instead of screwing it over.

Second, if they felt they were treated badly, they should also recognize that this league is NEW. There will be issues at first. I doubt the Korean leagues were perfect in their first season, yet people are holding NASL to an impossible standard. The U.S. is also in a recession some of those employees that are doing the mistreating of players might be temporary workers that are only working because they are desperate for a paycheck, not because they care about video games, the 'celebrities' or whatever.

Also, to the people who say that NASL should have a backup plan because we do not know if they were in 'locked' agreement to show up, how the hell do you have a backup plan for a sport when a team doesn't want to play? If the Red Sox just decide it's not worth their time to play the Yankees, you can't just import some random team to play the best players in baseball. The MLB would sue/fine every single player/staff person for failing to honor their contract (to play). How is it you expect NASL to achieve something that not even billion dollar professional sports can do? You can't have a string of alternate players in place just in case a team bows out. That's why contracts were signed by the Korean teams before NASL, which they decided they didn't like suddenly.

If they want to complain about costs, ask them how much it costs for them to travel to their tournaments in Korea, then compare the costs it takes for a single person to attend all 6-7 rounds of MLG. The total cost of, as well as time, travelling to 6-7 cities spread all over the country, in aggregate, far exceeds the cost of a single Korean coming over to the U.S.

Speaking of paying bills and costs......how is it that StarCraft is the national past time in Korea and yet sponsors aren't leaping out of their chairs to get their name on advertising at these events and to fund teams or sponsor players?

If you are a professional athlete in this country, advertisers are dying, literally, for you wear their logo, use their products or promote their services. Liquid'Tyler just recently got sponsored by a chewing gum company!!!! What the hell does chewing gum have to do with anything even tangentially related to ProGaming?

Also their complaint about having to get up at 4am for the online qualifiers and such....if you don't like the schedule, THEN DON'T PARTICIPATE! No one is forcing them to participate. They signed a contract stating that they would do it and now they have to do it. It's that simple. You obey your obligations and do it without complaining. If you don't like it, don't sign up for it next time around.

If there is some fact that I'm missing that undermines my above logic, I'm open to hearing about it. I just feel that Korean's are acting somewhat childishly and are trying to dodge their contractual obligations simply because they don't want to.




Consider that before you were alive, you were dead. After your life you will be dead. We spend more time being dead than alive. So don't waste your life.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:27:19
August 12 2011 16:48 GMT
#282
This is NOT an OFFICIAL statement.

<스타크래프트 2> 해외 커뮤니티가 한국 선수들의 North American Star League(이하 NASL) 시즌2 불참 소식으로 시끄럽다.

NASL은 팀리퀴드에 올린 글을 통해 많은 시간을 노력했지만 유감스럽게도 한국 팀들이 NASL에 참가하지 못하게 됐다는 사실을 알렸고, 불참을 선택한 한국의 협의회(스 타크래프트 2 협의회)에게 실망이라는 내용을 게재했다.

이 로 인해 해외 팬들과 일부 국내 팬들은 불참을 결정한 한국 게임단과 선수들을 비난하고 있다. 하 지만 이는 본질이 왜곡된 내용이며 NASL의 일방적인 주장에 불과하다.

결 론부터 말하면 NASL은 한국 선수들을 자신들의 돈벌이에 이용했고, 한국 선수들이 출전을 거부하자 이에 앙심을 품고 있는 것에 불과하다.

구 체적인 내용을 통해 한국 선수들이 NASL에 불참하게 된 이유를 설명한다. 먼저 NASL은 대회 출전을 위한 보증금 지급을 요구했다. NASL은 지난 4월 중순부터 6월 중순까지 2개월 동안 온라인으로 조별 풀리그를 진행하면서 출전 선수들에게 1인당 250달러(한화 약 27만원)를 받았다.

보 증금은 대회가 진행된 이후 돌려줄 것이라고 했지만 대회에 출전한 선수들은 아직까지도 보증금을 돌려받지 못하고 있는 상태다. NASL은 여기에서 그치지 않고 시즌2부터 는 보증금을 1인당 500달러(한화 약 54만)로 2배나 올렸다.

초 창기 <스타크래프트>가 출시됐을 때 PC방에서 진행하던 이벤트 대회도 출전 선수들에게 돈을 받지는 않았다. 하물며 프로 선수가 출전하는 대회가 선수들에게 보증금을 요구한다는 것 자체가 상식적으로 이해가 되지 않는 행태다.

두 번째 NASL 출전 선수에 대한 배려다. 한 국 선수들은 NASL 시즌1에 임요환(슬레이어스), 장재호(폭스), 장민철, 이윤열(이상 oGs) 등 정상급 선수가 10명이나 출전했다. 하지만 이들이 온라인 방송을 진행하는 현지 시간에 맞춰 경기를 치르느라 새벽같이 일어나 경기에 임했다. 이로 인해 선수들은 최악의 컨디션에서 경기를 치러야 했고, 이마저도 정해진 일정이 변경되면서 제대로 치러지지 않는 경우까지 발생했다.

NASL에 출전했던 선수들은 비슷한 시기에 경기를 진행한 TSL3과 비교해 NASL의 경기 진행 방식에 대해 불만을 표하기도 했다. 게다가 온라인 대회 진행인 관계로 매 경기 렉(지연 현상)도 심했다.

미 국 현지에서 진행된 그랜드파이널의 경우는 더욱 엉망이었다. 선수들은 미국으로 이동하는 비행기와 숙박, 식사 등 모든 비용을 본인이 직접 해결해야 했다. NASL 측은 그랜드파이널에 출전하는 선수들을 위해 1인 당 500달러씩 제공하겠다고 이야기했지만 출전에 필요한 경비의 절반에도 미치지 못한다. 이에 일부 선수들은 자신의 대회 상금에서 공제하기로 약속하고 나서야 비행기표와 숙소를 해결할 수 있었다.

또한, NASL은 LA공항에 도착한 한국 선수들이 대회가 열리는 현장으로 이동하는 과정에서 80달러의 픽업 비용을 받은 것으로 확인됐다.

그들은 NASL 온라인 방송을 유료(저화질은 무료)로 서비스하면서 막대한 이익을 얻었음에도 자신들의 수익을 위해 최고의 콘텐츠를 제공한 선수들은 홀대한 셈이다.

이에 한국의 게임단과 선수들은 NASL 측 에 보증금을 없앨 것과 그랜드파이널 참가를 위한 항공, 숙박, 체제 비용의 제공을 요구했지만 거절당했다.

NASL은 공지를 통해 1인당 그랜드파이널 출전 비용으로 이전의 2배 인 1천 달러(한화 약 108만원)를 지급하겠다고 했으나 이는 미국행 비행기표를 구입하기도 부족한 금액이다. 또한, 체 류 비용 1천 달러를 포함해 2천 달러(한화 약 216만원)를 분배하겠다고 최종적으로 제안했지만 확인 결과 이는 대회의 우승 상금을 삭감하고 지급하기로 한 것으로, 결국 선수들에게 지급해야 할 금액을 조정해서 위기를 면하기 위한 ‘조삼모사’에 불과했다.

최근 한국 선수들이 잇따라 해외 팀으로 이적하고 있고 다수의 해외 대회에 출전하고 있다. 하지만 이에 대한 보다 신중한 접근이 필요하다. NASL의 경우와 마찬가지로 한국 선수들은 최상의 콘텐츠를 공급할 수 있는 좋은 돈벌이 수단이다. 그러나 그들은 한국 선수들을 자신들의 돈벌이에 이용하면서 정당한 대가를 지불하지도 않는다.

곰TV는 한국 선수들의 해외 진출과 해외 우수 선수들의 한국 활동을 위해 다양한 연계 프로그램을 실시하고 있다. MLG 콜럼버스, MLG 애너하임에 이어 MLG 롤리를 진행하는 MLG가 대표적이며 8월 중순에는 IEM도 열릴 예정이다.

선수들에게 해외 대회 출전은 보다 넓은 세상을 경험하고 해외의 우수한 선수들과 승부를 겨룰 수 있는 좋은 기회임에 틀림없다. 그렇지만 본인이 프로라는 사실을 잊지 말고 아마추어 같은 대회는 과감하게 출전을 포기하는 결단이 필요하다.

NASL은 올 초 시즌1 10만 달러(한화 약 1억 800만원), 시즌2 10만 달러, 시 즌3 20만 달러(한화 약 2억 1천 600만원) 등 총 상금 40만 달러(한화 약 4억 3천 200만원)를 걸고 세계 최상위 클래스의 <스타크래 프트 2> 선수들을 초청해 대회를 만들겠다고 밝혔다. 하지만 지금까지 보여준 그들의 행태는 세계 최고의 선수들을 활용해 ‘재주는 선수들이 부리고 돈은 NASL이 벌겠다’는 잔꾀에 지나지 않다.

마 지막으로 NASL은 지금이라도 대회 운영을 포기하던지, 세계 최고의 선수들이 출전하는 위상에 걸맞은 모습과 대회 운영을 보여주길 바란다.

한 편, NASL 시즌1에 출전한 선수들의 보증금은 아직까지 지급되지 않았고, 상금 역시 지급되지 않았다. 또한, 한국 게임단은 최근 FXOpen과 병합한 FXOKorea를 제외하고 모든 팀과 선수들이 NASL 시즌2에 출전하지 않기로 결정했다.



Its been recognized, that foreign community talks about Korean players not playing in North American Star League (Known as NASL) Season 2.

The post, written by NASL.tv, said that they spend lots of time to meet an agreement, but they failed to do so, and Korean Teams decide not to play in NASL, and in post written by NASL.tv, NASL said that they were very disappointed to SC2Con.

Because of this, a lot of foreign fans, and Korean fans start blaming on Korean progaming team and Players, but in reality this is very falsified and NASL trying to hide the reality.

In Truth, NASL used Korean players as tool to make more money, and being vindictive about players not participating in Tournament

They (GOM and SC2Con) explained why Koreans do NOT participate in NASL.

First of all, NASL asked security Deposit. Starting mid April to mid May, (about 2 month) during online premid leagues, they gathered about 250$ per each players.

Although NASL.tv said that they will pay security deposit money back, players didn't get their money back. Also, NASL.tv raised security deposit money twice of last season to 500$, compare to last season (250$)

When Starcraft:Brood War first came out, even small LAN events done in internet cafe, they didn't have entry fee, yet huge league where all progamers attending asking for security deposit is abusive.

Secondly, players had hard time playing in NASL. In the first NASL Season, top Korean players like Boxer, moon, nada played in NASL. However, because of live cast, players had to wake about 4am every time there was tournament match - which caused players to be in low concentration and tiredness. Also, there were some case where schedule changed, and they did not play.

Players who played in NASL thought that way that TSL3 scheduled matches were supportive for Players than the way NASL did. Not only schedule time was very difficult for players to play, but also since it was Online tournament, every games had delays. (high latency)

Grandfinal in US was even more disturbing. Players had to play from their own expenses in order to go States (Flight ticket, Hotel, Food). NASL.tv said that for each player, who is going to States, they will support with 500$ US, but it was not even half amount of travel expenses. So some players promised to pay their expenses from money that they will win after the tournament, borrowed money from NASL; then, had barely enough money for flight ticket and hotel.

Also we checked NASL get $80 for pickup fees to drive LA airport through the convention center.

Even though NASL made a lot of profits throughout HQ (LQ was free), for their own profits, they were neglected about players.

Thus, Korean pro gaming teams and players asked NASL to reduce or delete security deposit money and support travel expenses, but got refused.

NASL.tv said (throughout bulletin) for each players who will be playing in GrandFinal, they will going to support with 1000$ US, compare to Season 1 of 500$, but 1000$ is not even enough for flight ticket to United States. Also, they said, including 1000$ travel expenses, they will pay extra 2000$, but apparently NASL.tv decide to reduce price pool in order to give extra travel expenses. (Eventually providing players about same amount of money)

Nowadays, many Korean players decide to step outside of Korea and join foreign team, and play in foreign tournament. However, we need to be careful about this. Tournament like NASL show the case that Korean players can show high level of game play, attracting lots of people; However, they only use Korean players as tool to make more money and attract viewers.

GomTV is proposing many new ideas in order to keep foreign team, players active in Korea and help Korean players to play outside of Korea. MLG columbus, MLG anaheim, MLG event is one of the example of GomTV stepping outside of Korea, and there will be IEM tournament at mid-august.

Of course, its very good opportunities for players to play in foreign tournament which will give them chances to play against good foreign players and experience foreign community, but it is important to not forget that they are 'pro' gamers and not participate in amateur tournament. (NOTE: It is very important to not take this word in offensive behaviour. He used Amateur term, but it refers to Tournaments which is not very supportive and doesnt care about players, focusing a lot more in making money. Koreans are not being arrogant, rather they believe NASL is being amateur league that doesnt think or care about players but just hope to make profits out of it.)

NASL said in beginning of the year that first season will 100,000$, second season 100,000$, and third season for 200,000$, total of 400,000$ and have all top class players to play in Tournament. However, from what they have shown, all their desire is use players as tool to attract more people and eventually making more money for NASL.tv.

Finally I hope (reporter) NASL stop Tournaments, or supports players better, and be better in tournament operating.

On the other hand, players who played in NASL Season 1 didn't get their security deposit and pay check (from winning tournament). Also, SC2Con decide that except FXOKorea who emerged with FXOpen, all teams and players decide not to participate in Season ll of NASL .
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13816 Posts
August 12 2011 16:53 GMT
#283
This is exactly what I was expecting. Koreans are lieing now about things. Ill will from the Puma deal affecting their decisions on the american scene as a whole.

If they don't want our money they don't have to take it.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Nerski
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1095 Posts
August 12 2011 16:54 GMT
#284
To be totally honest, the korean teams/players sound like spoiled little brats with the attitude they have taken with NASL. Expecting a tournament to pay for plane tickets, loodging, travel stateside, meals....like your some kind of prince, is pretty arrogant.
Twitter: @GoForNerski /// Youtube: Youtube.com/nerskisc
NASL.tv
Profile Joined April 2011
699 Posts
August 12 2011 16:55 GMT
#285
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 16:55 GMT
#286
I dont know which side is telling the truth, I hope some foreign players decide to step up and speak out loud. To be Honest, I dont see why SC2Con and Korean teams will not play in NASL if they can make money out of it. They arent retards who doesnt know how to count.

I really wish I can know the truth behind this, one side is definitely lying.
Nerski
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1095 Posts
August 12 2011 16:56 GMT
#287
Although NASL.tv said that they will pay security deposit money back, players didn't get their money back. Also, NASL.tv raised security deposit money twice of last season to 500$, compare to last season (250$


Probably didn't get it back because of what NASL mentioned about taking the money they spent to buy tickets for the koreans etc. Which wasn't part of the original agreement.
Twitter: @GoForNerski /// Youtube: Youtube.com/nerskisc
CursedFeanor
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada539 Posts
August 12 2011 16:57 GMT
#288
If this statement corresponds to sc2con's official stance, I've just lost a lot of respect for their korean teams (or at least their management). This all seems incredibly retarded, so I want to believe it's only the view of a single guy...

I also wonder how much of this situation is actually due to korean's limited english understanding. I'm almost certain that they don't get a lot of the nuances both in the contracts they sign and in the communications with NASL. A proper professional translator could maybe help both parties?
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 16:59 GMT
#289
On August 13 2011 01:56 Nerski wrote:
Show nested quote +
Although NASL.tv said that they will pay security deposit money back, players didn't get their money back. Also, NASL.tv raised security deposit money twice of last season to 500$, compare to last season (250$


Probably didn't get it back because of what NASL mentioned about taking the money they spent to buy tickets for the koreans etc. Which wasn't part of the original agreement.



I cant speak up since I dont know situation behind this. (im pretty sure there is a lot more than what we know) but having not paid until now? Hmmm I dont know about that. Its been while since there was Tournament right?

Unless there was 'agreement' its something to be blame. Of course if players did agree and NASL said they will pay money in certain date (sometime near future), there is no problem with that, but as of now, with my very limited info, its not right.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 17:01 GMT
#290
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?
DjSpectre
Profile Joined February 2011
United States62 Posts
August 12 2011 17:05 GMT
#291
On August 13 2011 02:01 BaekHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?


I think he was referring to the article in the very first post in this thread.

You're re-translated article does, in fact, sound much more harsh (and much clearer, too, thank you!) than the originally translated article which, as the original poster stated, was a rough translation.
Consider that before you were alive, you were dead. After your life you will be dead. We spend more time being dead than alive. So don't waste your life.
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33211 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:06:54
August 12 2011 17:06 GMT
#292
better translation being moved to OP
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 17:09 GMT
#293
On August 13 2011 02:05 DjSpectre wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:01 BaekHo wrote:
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?


I think he was referring to the article in the very first post in this thread.

You're re-translated article does, in fact, sound much more harsh (and much clearer, too, thank you!) than the originally translated article which, as the original poster stated, was a rough translation.


I will just summarize it.

1/ SC2Con feel like players were struggling to play in NASL, and travel expenses for grand final is too expensive for them, so they decide to quit.

2/ NASL did not pay travel expenses and security deposit yet, showing that they are very disorganized.

3/ Teams agreed to not play in NASL, so SC2Con came up with idea.



archangel2
Profile Joined March 2011
76 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:12:37
August 12 2011 17:12 GMT
#294
On August 13 2011 02:01 BaekHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?


I don't think he means your translation is wrong but the facts in the original article

Edit: Oops, too late.
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33211 Posts
August 12 2011 17:12 GMT
#295
On August 13 2011 02:01 BaekHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?


he means that the original writer of the article has even more incorrect statements about NASL in the more complete translation
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Gurblechev
Profile Joined May 2011
188 Posts
August 12 2011 17:13 GMT
#296
On August 13 2011 01:48 BaekHo wrote:

Of course, its very good opportunities for players to play in foreign tournament which will give them chances to play against good foreign players and experience foreign community, but it is important to not forget that they are 'pro' gamers and not participate in amateur tournament. (NOTE: Although this sound offensive, i believe he meant amateur tournament as NOT skill wise, he doesn't seem to think foreign players are scrubs, he thinks that amateur tournament are those who doesn't provide player's environment very well)

This is why they should have hired competent employees instead of hiring their friends for jobs they are not qualified to do.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:16:22
August 12 2011 17:14 GMT
#297
On August 13 2011 02:09 BaekHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:05 DjSpectre wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:01 BaekHo wrote:
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?


I think he was referring to the article in the very first post in this thread.

You're re-translated article does, in fact, sound much more harsh (and much clearer, too, thank you!) than the originally translated article which, as the original poster stated, was a rough translation.


I will just summarize it.

1/ SC2Con feel like players were struggling to play in NASL, and travel expenses for grand final is too expensive for them, so they decide to quit.

2/ NASL did not pay travel expenses and security deposit yet, showing that they are very disorganized.

3/ Teams agreed to not play in NASL, so SC2Con came up with idea.




The statement I highlighted in bold makes me LOL. Both the SC2Con teams and NASL are contradicting each other on this. However, this is something VERY easily proved one way or another (bank receipts). Looks like someone is going to get embarrassed... So, who's lying or extremely disorganised???
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 17:15 GMT
#298
On August 13 2011 02:12 Waxangel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:01 BaekHo wrote:
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?


he means that the original writer of the article has even more incorrect statements about NASL in the more complete translation



Im editing my post few times hope my 'fixed' post also apply to OP
LanTAs
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1091 Posts
August 12 2011 17:16 GMT
#299
I do not understand all the " Oh yeah come to america and steal 50k" stuff. Only one player gets that. Try this from the korean perspective, wake up at 2 in the morning once a week for three months while playing with a good amount of lag while still practicing with your teamates on a regular basis is a really hard thing to do. I know the next reply to this post will be how they are not trying hard enough and shit, but the truth is that NASL is really not financially supportable even in round of 8, right now a plane ticket from incheon in'tl lowest is around 2.3k (airfare fluxuates between holidays and normal days), and then you add in hotel fees for three days, which can be anything from around 150-280 bucks per night, so 450-840 bucks, not including transportation fees depending how far you are away from the airport to hotel and hotel to convention center( I doubt koreans have to pay), then if you bomb out on ro16 you wil end up in the negatives when coming back, korean sponsorships do not pay so much I hear, if you noticed the only times that koreans did come to a foreigner lan event is when they were sponsored (with the exception on NASL s1 and the previous dreamhack).

You might say "WELL RETARD WHY DO FOREIGNER TEAMS SEND PLAYERS THERE, FXO SENT THEIR WHOLE TEAM AND BOUGHT ANOTHER TEAM TOO, LOOK AT TEAMLIQUID..." Okay. First, FXO is a big time investment company with somebody deep inside the esports scene who is willing to throw money around, teamliquid is supported by a smalltime mac software producer (which the owner graciously pulls out several thousand bucks to help TL) and recently razer, which we all know, and lastly they have a partnership with oGs who graciously lends them their teamhouse for food and a space to live in.. EG, only supported three (or two) players max at one time which was in the GSL3 qualifiers, and several seasons after, IdrA pulled out of korea due to the fact that he,thought it was too stressful. Korean sponsorships are much smaller, even with large companies like zowie, coca cola, googims (i saw a lot of people wearing their shirts in korea), EXR (the quality of their shirts are a bit short of amazing), they are only really willing to sponsor gear, really nice jerseys and drinks. The most they would do is sponsor hotels and transportation, and they would leave the airfare to you, and even a small salary to select players (g.skill), but still It doesnt make sense to go to a place where you will pretty much loose more money than you ended up with. Keep in mind, only oneplayer gets 50k, another gets 25k, and another gets 10k. The others end up with codea prize money without the code s advancement.
kwhipped
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada4 Posts
August 12 2011 17:17 GMT
#300
Players that require the travel stipend will have EARNED the right to attend the Grand Finals of NASL. Some of them (Koreans and Europeans) will have to travel very far to get there. Also, this is where NASL gets most of their viewership and money from. There are only SIXTEEN players in the Grand Finals. With the ability to pay out $100000, how hard is it to have a travel stipend at maximum of $2000, and keep the prize pool the same? With S3, apparently they will be going for $250000 prize pool or something like that, so the ability is clearly there. The players who attend the NASL Grand Finals already have played through tough hours depending on their location, for 3 months. They are the players that will be getting NASL the most exposure. Treat them as such. I agree with the decision to not attend. For being a "major eSports" event, they are being stingy to their BEST players (not Korean, but the players who make up the Grand Finals), when they clearly have the resources to help all 16 players. ($32000 maximum...)
NASL.tv
Profile Joined April 2011
699 Posts
August 12 2011 17:19 GMT
#301
On August 13 2011 02:01 BaekHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?


I don't mean your translation is incorrect, sorry. I mean to say that what they're saying is not only wrong, but is slanderous.

To claim that we earned a lot of profit and don't give back to the players is totally wrong. We increased our support of players. Raising the travel stipend is not just for Koreans, it's for every player in the league. This is an additional $8,000 we procured for players.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:24:39
August 12 2011 17:23 GMT
#302
I know the translated article is not an official statement - but it contains some hilariousness.
Secondly, players having hard time playing in NASL. In the first NASL Season, top Korean players like Boxer, moon, nada played in NASL. However, because of live cast, players had to wake about 4am every time there was tournament match - which caused players to be in low concentration and tiredness. Also, there were some case where schedule changed, and they did not play.

Boohoo... they knew what they were getting into when they signed up for the tournament... these are valid reasons for not wanting to participate in season 2, I do agree. HOWEVER, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE CONDITIONS, DON'T SIGN UP IN THE FIRST PLACE. How hard was it to say, we believe that this is not conducive to good play and don't participate (e.g. Nestea)???

Players who played in NASL thought that way that TSL3 scheduled matches were supportive than NASL did. Since it was Online tournament, every games had delays. (high latency)

TSL is TSL and NASL is NASL. If you don't like the format, don't sign up.

Grandfinal in US was even more disturbing. Players had to play from their own expenses in order to go States (Flight ticket, Hotel, Food). NASL.tv said that for each player, who is going to States, they will support with 500$ US, but it was not even half amount of travel expenses. So some players promised to pay their expenses from money that they will win after the tournament, get money from NASL; then, had barely enough money for flight ticket and hotel.

Then don't come to the tournament if you can't afford it??? However, don't sign up and then pull out at the last minute? I find it absurd that they even use the word "disturbing".

The situation is very simple... if the korean teams had signed up for season 2 and then pulled out, then they have acted very unethically. If no contract was signed, then NASL is in the wrong. It's actually quite black-and-white.
ToInfinity
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands61 Posts
August 12 2011 17:24 GMT
#303
On August 13 2011 01:48 BaekHo wrote:
This is NOT an OFFICIAL statement.

<스타크래프트 2> 해외 커뮤니티가 한국 선수들의 North American Star League(이하 NASL) 시즌2 불참 소식으로 시끄럽다.

Its been recognized, that foreign community talks about Korean players not playing in North American Star League (Known as NASL) Season 2.

NASL은 팀리퀴드에 올린 글을 통해 많은 시간을 노력했지만 유감스럽게도 한국 팀들이 NASL에 참가하지 못하게 됐다는 사실을 알렸고, 불참을 선택한 한국의 협의회(스 타크래프트 2 협의회)에게 실망이라는 내용을 게재했다.

The post, written by NASL.tv, said that they spend lots of time to meet an agreement, but they failed to do so, and Korean Teams decide not to play in NASL, and in post, NASL was very disappointed to SC2Con.

이 로 인해 해외 팬들과 일부 국내 팬들은 불참을 결정한 한국 게임단과 선수들을 비난하고 있다. 하 지만 이는 본질이 왜곡된 내용이며 NASL의 일방적인 주장에 불과하다.

Because of this, a lot of foreign fans, and Korean fans start blaming on Korean progaming team and Players, but in reality this is very falsified and NASL trying to hide the reality.

결 론부터 말하면 NASL은 한국 선수들을 자신들의 돈벌이에 이용했고, 한국 선수들이 출전을 거부하자 이에 앙심을 품고 있는 것에 불과하다.

In Truth, NASL used Korean players as tool to make more money, and being vindictive about players not participating in Tournament

구체적인 내용을 통해 한국 선수들이 NASL에 불참하게 된 이유를 설명한다. 먼저 NASL은 대회 출전을 위한 보증금 지급을 요구했다. NASL은 지난 4월 중순부터 6월 중순까지 2개월 동안 온라인으로 조별 풀리그를 진행하면서 출전 선수들에게 1인당 250달러(한화 약 27만원)를 받았다.

They (GOM and SC2Con) explained why Koreans do NOT participate in NASL. First of all, NASL asked security Deposit. Starting mid April to mid May, (about 2 month) during online premid leagues, they gathered about 250$ per each players.

보증금은 대회가 진행된 이후 돌려줄 것이라고 했지만 대회에 출전한 선수들은 아직까지도 보증금을 돌려받지 못하고 있는 상태다. NASL은 여기에서 그치지 않고 시즌2부터는 보증금을 1인당 500달러(한화 약 54만)로 2배나 올렸다.

Although NASL.tv said that they will pay security deposit money back, players didn't get their money back. Also, NASL.tv raised security deposit money twice of last season to 500$, compare to last season (250$)


초창기 <스타크래프트>가 출시됐을 때 PC방에서 진행하던 이벤트 대회도 출전 선수들에게 돈을 받지는 않았다. 하물며 프로 선수가 출전하는 대회가 선수들에게 보증금을 요구한다는 것 자체가 상식적으로 이해가 되지 않는 행태다.

When Starcraft first came out (not sure if hes referring to SC1 or SCll), even small LAN events done in internet cafe, they didnt have entry fee (I believe its SCl), yet huge league where all progamers attending asking for security deposit is abusive.

두 번째 NASL 출전 선수에 대한 배려다. 한국 선수들은 NASL 시즌1에 임요환(슬레이어스), 장재호(폭스), 장민철, 이윤열(이상 oGs) 등 정상급 선수가 10명이나 출전했다. 하지만 이들이 온라인 방송을 진행하는 현지 시간에 맞춰 경기를 치르느라 새벽같이 일어나 경기에 임했다. 이로 인해 선수들은 최악의 컨디션에서 경기를 치러야 했고, 이마저도 정해진 일정이 변경되면서 제대로 치러지지 않는 경우까지 발생했다.

Secondly, players having hard time playing in NASL. In the first NASL Season, top Korean players like Boxer, moon, nada played in NASL. However, because of live cast, players had to wake about 4am every time there was tournament match - which caused players to be in low concentration and tiredness. Also, there were some case where schedule changed, and they did not play.


NASL에 출전했던 선수들은 비슷한 시기에 경기를 진행한 TSL3과 비교해 NASL의 경기 진행 방식에 대해 불만을 표하기도 했다. 게다가 온라인 대회 진행인 관계로 매 경기 렉(지연 현상)도 심했다.

Players who played in NASL thought that way that TSL3 scheduled matches were supportive than NASL did. Since it was Online tournament, every games had delays. (high latency)


미국 현지에서 진행된 그랜드파이널의 경우는 더욱 엉망이었다. 선수들은 미국으로 이동하는 비행기와 숙박, 식사 등 모든 비용을 본인이 직접 해결해야 했다. NASL 측은 그랜드파이널에 출전하는 선수들을 위해 1인당 500달러씩 제공하겠다고 이야기했지만 출전에 필요한 경비의 절반에도 미치지 못한다. 이에 일부 선수들은 자신의 대회 상금에서 공제하기로 약속하고 나서야 비행기표와 숙소를 해결할 수 있었다.

Grandfinal in US was even more disturbing. Players had to play from their own expenses in order to go States (Flight ticket, Hotel, Food). NASL.tv said that for each player, who is going to States, they will support with 500$ US, but it was not even half amount of travel expenses. So some players promised to pay their expenses from money that they will win after the tournament, get money from NASL; then, had barely enough money for flight ticket and hotel.


또한, NASL은 LA공항에 도착한 한국 선수들이 대회가 열리는 현장으로 이동하는 과정에서 80달러의 픽업 비용을 받은 것으로 확인됐다.

Also we checked NASL get $80 for pickup fees to drive LA airport through the convention center.


그 들은 NASL 온라인 방송을 유료(저화질은 무료)로 서비스하면서 막대한 이익을 얻었음에도 자신들의 수익을 위해 최고의 콘텐츠를 제공한 선수들은 홀대한 셈이다.

Even though NASL made a lot of profits throughout HQ (LQ was free), for their own profits, they were neglected about players.


이 에 한국의 게임단과 선수들은 NASL 측에 보증금을 없앨 것과 그랜드파이널 참가를 위한 항공, 숙박, 체제 비용의 제공을 요구했지만 거절당했다.

Thus, Korean pro gaming teams and players asked NASL to reduce or delete security deposit money and support travel expenses, but got refused.


NASL은 공지를 통해 1인당 그랜드파이널 출전 비용으로 이전의 2배인 1천 달러(한화 약 108만원)를 지급하겠다고 했으나 이는 미국행 비행기표를 구입하기도 부족한 금액이다. 또한, 여행 비용 1천 달러를 포함해 2천 달러(한화 약 216만원)를 분배하겠다고 최종적으로 제안했지만 확인 결과 이는 대회의 우승 상금을 삭감하고 지급하기로 한 것으로, 결국 선수들에게 지급해야 할 금액을 조정해서 위기를 면하기 위한 ‘조삼모사’에 불과했다.

NASL.tv said (throughout bulletin) for each players who will be playing in GrandFinal, they will going to support with 1000$ US, compare to Season 1 of 500$, but 1000$ is not even enough for flight ticket to United States. Also, they said, including 1000$ travel expenses, they will pay extra 2000$, but apparently NASL.tv decide to reduce price pool in order to give extra travel expenses. (Eventually providing players about same amount of money)


최근 한국 선수들이 잇따라 해외 팀으로 이적하고 있고 다수의 해외 대회에 출전하고 있다. 하지만 이에 대한 보다 신중한 접근이 필요하다. NASL의 경우와 마찬가지로 한국 선수들은 최상의 콘텐츠를 공급할 수 있는 좋은 돈벌이 수단이다. 그러나 그들은 한국 선수들을 자신들의 돈벌이에 이용하면서 정당한 대가를 지불하지도 않는다.

Nowadays, many Korean players decide to step outside of Korea and join foreign team, and play in foreign tournament. However, we need to be careful about this. Tournament like NASL show the case that Korean players can show high level of game play, attracting lots of people; However, they only use Korean players in order to make money for their own and not being supportive for players.

곰 TV는 한국 선수들의 해외 진출과 해외 우수 선수들의 한국 활동을 위해 다양한 연계 프로그램을 실시하고 있다. MLG 콜럼버스, MLG 애너하임에 이어 MLG 롤리를 진행하는 MLG가 대표적이며 8월 중순에는 IEM도 열릴 예정이다.

GomTV is proposing many new ideas in order to keep foreign team, players active in Korea and help Korean players to play outside of Korea. MLG columbus, MLG anaheim, MLG event is one of the example of GomTV stepping outside of Korea, and there will be IEM tournament at mid-august.

선 수들에게 해외 대회 출전은 보다 넓은 세상을 경험하고 해외의 우수한 선수들과 승부를 겨룰 수 있는 좋은 기회임에 틀림없다. 그렇지만 본인이 프로라는 사실을 잊지 말고 아마추어 같은 대회는 과감하게 출전을 포기하는 결단이 필요하다.

Of course, its very good opportunities for players to play in foreign tournament which will give them chances to play against good foreign players and experience foreign community, but it is important to not forget that they are 'pro' gamers and not participate in amateur tournament. (NOTE: Although this sound offensive, i believe he meant amateur tournament as NOT skill wise, he doesn't seem to think foreign players are scrubs, he thinks that amateur tournament are those who doesn't provide player's environment very well)

NASL 은 올 초 시즌1 10만 달러(한화 약 1억 800만원), 시즌2 10만 달러, 시즌3 20만 달러(한화 약 2억 1천 600만원) 등 총 상금 40만 달러(한화 약 4억 3천 200만원)를 걸고 세계 최상위 클래스의 <스타크래프트 2> 선수들을 초청해 대회를 만들겠다고 밝혔다. 하지만 지금까지 보여준 그들의 행태는 세계 최고의 선수들을 활용해 ‘재주는 선수들이 부리고 돈은 NASL이 벌겠다’는 잔꾀에 지나지 않다.

NASL said in beginning of the year that first season will 100,000$, second season 100,000$, and third season for 200,000$, total of 400,000$ and have all top class players to play in Tournament. However, from what they have shown, all their desire is 'players play game, and NASL make more money'.

마지막으로 NASL은 지금이라도 대회 운영을 포기하던지, 세계 최고의 선수들이 출전하는 위상에 걸맞은 모습과 대회 운영을 보여주길 바란다.

Finally I hope (reporter) NASL stop Tournaments, or supports players better, and be better in tournament operating.

한편, NASL 시즌1에 출전한 선수들의 보증금은 아직까지 지급되지 않았고, 상금 역시 지급되지 않았다. 또한, 한국 게임단은 최근 FXOpen과 병합한 FXOKorea를 제외하고 모든 팀과 선수들이 NASL 시즌2에 출전하지 않기로 결정했다.

On the other hand, players who played in NASL Season 1 didnt get their security deposit and pay check (from winning tournament). Also, SC2Con decide that except FXOKorea who emerged with FXOpen, all teams and players decide not to participate in Season ll of NASL . (This paragraph is Fact, not opinion, I believe.)


still doesnt make alot of sense
all these points were known prior to the tournament
and they agreed too them

also dotn really see how they say NASL only used them to make money

NASL.tv
Profile Joined April 2011
699 Posts
August 12 2011 17:24 GMT
#304
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 17:25 GMT
#305
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this

So, I don't even understand how the SC2Con teams can claim they haven't been paid??? Did someone embezzle their money lol
kwhipped
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada4 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:26:28
August 12 2011 17:26 GMT
#306
edit
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:30:15
August 12 2011 17:27 GMT
#307
On August 13 2011 02:19 NASL.tv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:01 BaekHo wrote:
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?


I don't mean your translation is incorrect, sorry. I mean to say that what they're saying is not only wrong, but is slanderous.

To claim that we earned a lot of profit and don't give back to the players is totally wrong. We increased our support of players. Raising the travel stipend is not just for Koreans, it's for every player in the league. This is an additional $8,000 we procured for players.

NASL isn't obliged to raise support as the conditions were stated before the contract was signed. There are people even arguing whether NASL is doing enough / not doing enough. All these are moot points (a moot point is something that can be argued one way or another but the outcome of it is not relevant to the discussion).

The crux of the matter, and it's quite simple to establish who's wrong or right. Did the SC2Con teams sign the season 2 contract?
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 17:27 GMT
#308
Fixed hope to change the post.
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
August 12 2011 17:27 GMT
#309
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.

So
Is it true that you guys haven't given the security deposit, and prize money back?
That's all I want to know.
Benjef
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United Kingdom6921 Posts
August 12 2011 17:28 GMT
#310
To be fair it seems like the Koreans signed up for stuff that they new was going to happen then tried to get it changed afterwards. Couldnt and dropped out. There completely in the wrong =/. Shame ><.
<3 | Dota 2 | DayZ | <3
taLbuk
Profile Joined April 2010
Madagascar1879 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:31:13
August 12 2011 17:29 GMT
#311
On August 13 2011 02:27 canikizu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.

So
Is it true that you guys haven't given the security deposit, and prize money back?
That's all I want to know.


"1) Our contract states that all prizes//stipend//deposit will be paid and refunded within 60 days of the tournament finish. This contract was signed by every Korean team manager and player that played in Season 1. Further, we have already paid back all the security deposits of Korean teams for Season 1, in addition to the deposits of players who were slated not to return for Season 2."
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:31:35
August 12 2011 17:30 GMT
#312
Btw dont ask me why Korean proposed such idea, im not working for Gom nor SC2Con,

im just Korean sc2 progamer who lives in Canada. ~.~ I dont know if there was miscommunication

or sth, but do not trust this article, at least not until the actual direct statement come from SC2Con.


I personally dont think SC2Con will make up some facts (unless they wanna get bashed so much)

so hope there was misunderstanding.
taLbuk
Profile Joined April 2010
Madagascar1879 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:30:50
August 12 2011 17:30 GMT
#313
edit : double post
thee telescopes
Profile Joined August 2010
321 Posts
August 12 2011 17:31 GMT
#314
On August 13 2011 02:27 canikizu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.

So
Is it true that you guys haven't given the security deposit, and prize money back?
That's all I want to know.
They're still within the agreed time to repay the deposits and there's proof in this thread they've already begun to repay them.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 17:32 GMT
#315
and for moderator, hope you guys recognized i edited my original post, so please change it with OP!

thx.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 17:35 GMT
#316
On August 13 2011 02:30 BaekHo wrote:
Btw dont ask me why Korean proposed such idea, im not working for Gom nor SC2Con,

im just Korean sc2 progamer who lives in Canada. ~.~ I dont know if there was miscommunication

or sth, but do not trust this article, at least not until the actual direct statement come from SC2Con.


I personally dont think SC2Con will make up some facts (unless they wanna get bashed so much)

so hope there was misunderstanding.

Thanks for your translation. I'm not too surprised by the hostile tone of the korean translations since the NASL press release was quite aggressive as well.

One thing that I do want to know, was any season 2 contracts signed?
bucckevin
Profile Joined April 2011
858 Posts
August 12 2011 17:35 GMT
#317
OK. From NASL.tv's response. They said they paid in full for flight, hotel, etc cost but then at the end, they say the cost will be deducted from the stipends and prize won money. Why do you even bother to say you paid for it? It's more like an advancement. I can understand why the Koreans don't want to bother with this tournament. Pay to play for 3 months for a chance to play in the finals. Once you get to the finals, if you don't make it far, you will break even or maybe lose a little money. The Koreans just don't think the time spent and reward is enough for them to participate. That's their decision and I think that's fine. The only problem should be when they decided to pull out.
NASL.tv
Profile Joined April 2011
699 Posts
August 12 2011 17:37 GMT
#318
That is the issue -- we don't mind if they think that NASL is not a good option for them or they don't want to play. But when you sign up for qualifiers, you know the rules, procedures, and commitment required, and the day the season starts you quit the league, that is the issue.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 17:37 GMT
#319
On August 13 2011 02:35 Azzur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:30 BaekHo wrote:
Btw dont ask me why Korean proposed such idea, im not working for Gom nor SC2Con,

im just Korean sc2 progamer who lives in Canada. ~.~ I dont know if there was miscommunication

or sth, but do not trust this article, at least not until the actual direct statement come from SC2Con.


I personally dont think SC2Con will make up some facts (unless they wanna get bashed so much)

so hope there was misunderstanding.

Thanks for your translation. I'm not too surprised by the hostile tone of the korean translations since the NASL press release was quite aggressive as well.

One thing that I do want to know, was any season 2 contracts signed?



FXOKorea and Liquid'Hero, FnaticMSIRain will be playing in Season 2.

Other than that I believe No.
mmdmmd
Profile Joined June 2007
722 Posts
August 12 2011 17:37 GMT
#320
On August 12 2011 16:13 oniman999 wrote:
If they don't want to come steal 50 grand, it's their fault :/


If they don't come. There won't be a 50 grand.
thee telescopes
Profile Joined August 2010
321 Posts
August 12 2011 17:38 GMT
#321
On August 13 2011 02:35 bucckevin wrote:
OK. From NASL.tv's response. They said they paid in full for flight, hotel, etc cost but then at the end, they say the cost will be deducted from the stipends and prize won money. Why do you even bother to say you paid for it? It's more like an advancement. I can understand why the Koreans don't want to bother with this tournament. Pay to play for 3 months for a chance to play in the finals. Once you get to the finals, if you don't make it far, you will break even or maybe lose a little money. The Koreans just don't think the time spent and reward is enough for them to participate. That's their decision and I think that's fine. The only problem should be when they decided to pull out.


That's pretty much what the NASL said.

While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season.


I kinda don't get why there's so much controversy surrounding the actual decision rather than the timing, too.
Eternalmisfit
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States643 Posts
August 12 2011 17:40 GMT
#322
On August 13 2011 02:27 Azzur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:19 NASL.tv wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:01 BaekHo wrote:
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?


I don't mean your translation is incorrect, sorry. I mean to say that what they're saying is not only wrong, but is slanderous.

To claim that we earned a lot of profit and don't give back to the players is totally wrong. We increased our support of players. Raising the travel stipend is not just for Koreans, it's for every player in the league. This is an additional $8,000 we procured for players.

NASL isn't obliged to raise support as the conditions were stated before the contract was signed. There are people even arguing whether NASL is doing enough / not doing enough. All these are moot points (a moot point is something that can be argued one way or another but the outcome of it is not relevant to the discussion).

The crux of the matter, and it's quite simple to establish who's wrong or right. Did the SC2Con teams sign the season 2 contract?



I also think that the bolded question is the important part.
If Koreans did sign the contract, it is really a bad decision for them to withdraw at this point of time.
If they didn't sign the contract yet, it suggests that they were still negotiating and the decision to withdraw does make some sense.

thebig1
Profile Joined March 2011
248 Posts
August 12 2011 17:42 GMT
#323
Ugh. Guys, look at the timestamp on the payment record before running your mouth. Yes it was paid, but on August 8th. Meaning due to timezones it probably was the 9th when they noticed in Korea. This is also AFTER they had already started filming season 2.

So, timing of this article aside, it's an opinion piece after all. They HAD NOT been paid while they were discussing if they were to continue with season 2 or not. If it was your money and you haven't had your security deposit returned by the time you need to pay your next one, how comfortable would you feel about it?

Not that I'm trying to point fingers at NASL and say it's all their fault. There is already way way too much banwagoning going on in the thread. However, dealing with money there is a certain level of professionalism people like to try and expect. Just because you are legally required to have it done in 2 months, doesn't mean it should be procrastinated until that point. Again, how fun would it be if your banks did that?


BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:43:50
August 12 2011 17:42 GMT
#324
Did you Pay ALL the money to All players not just winner of NASL?


I fix after reading big1 's post. I c so it was misunderstanding after all.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 17:43 GMT
#325
I really hope that moderator can Fix my old post for new one.. I fixed some of it.
Fubi
Profile Joined March 2011
2228 Posts
August 12 2011 17:44 GMT
#326
Not all the money was returned as of the time the Koreans made their decision. This is a fact is it not?
mango_destroyer
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3914 Posts
August 12 2011 17:45 GMT
#327
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.
Ladnil
Profile Joined July 2011
United States93 Posts
August 12 2011 17:45 GMT
#328
So... how much money exactly do the Koreans think NASL is making? I have a VERY hard time believing they're rolling in the cash with the prize pool they're offering. I mean, I know MLG's prizes are embarrassingly low, but NASL still paid out ten times what MLG did to the winner, and that's pretty huge for a brand new league/event. It seems to me like their budget must be very tight, and the Koreans asking for many thousands of dollars extra to get their travel expenses covered is just ridiculous.

Is the position they're going to take that if foreign tournaments want their attendance, they must fund everything themselves? That seems remarkably short sighted. Some of the team managers over there must know the value of international exposure for sponsorships, especially for a player like DRG who knows some English. Guys like White-Ra get fans by embracing the community and attending everything, and the Koreans seem like they believe they're doing foreigners a charity by attending.
Have a nice day.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:48:14
August 12 2011 17:45 GMT
#329
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.


This is my personal Thought as well.

By the Way I just read post in Korean community website, procedure in NASL said they will pay security deposite back in 60 days (and its been about a month since NASL finished), and GSL pay players money after one month, so it was misunderstanding.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 17:47 GMT
#330
On August 13 2011 02:42 thebig1 wrote:
Ugh. Guys, look at the timestamp on the payment record before running your mouth. Yes it was paid, but on August 8th. Meaning due to timezones it probably was the 9th when they noticed in Korea. This is also AFTER they had already started filming season 2.

So, timing of this article aside, it's an opinion piece after all. They HAD NOT been paid while they were discussing if they were to continue with season 2 or not. If it was your money and you haven't had your security deposit returned by the time you need to pay your next one, how comfortable would you feel about it?

Not that I'm trying to point fingers at NASL and say it's all their fault. There is already way way too much banwagoning going on in the thread. However, dealing with money there is a certain level of professionalism people like to try and expect. Just because you are legally required to have it done in 2 months, doesn't mean it should be procrastinated until that point. Again, how fun would it be if your banks did that?



If teams had an issue with the 2 month payment, they should've raised it before they signed. And don't use it as an excuse or say that NASL is disorganised.

i.e. Don't agree to something and then say that someone's performance is poor because they didn't do better than what was agreed.
taLbuk
Profile Joined April 2010
Madagascar1879 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:48:51
August 12 2011 17:47 GMT
#331
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.


protect their players sure, but according to NASL's response claims this article from TIG has points that are 100% false.

Nobody can be sure until we get an OFFICIAL response from sc2con
taLbuk
Profile Joined April 2010
Madagascar1879 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:48:27
August 12 2011 17:47 GMT
#332
jeez 2nd time today i double post trying to edit i accidently hit reply :X
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 17:48 GMT
#333
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.

Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it.
jenzebubble
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States183 Posts
August 12 2011 17:49 GMT
#334
On August 13 2011 02:19 NASL.tv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:01 BaekHo wrote:
On August 13 2011 01:55 NASL.tv wrote:
The properly translated article is actually more wrong and slanderous than the mis-translated article in the OP.



I dont know what part is actually wrong... I checked it few times already, mind to speak out if you know how to read Korean?


I don't mean your translation is incorrect, sorry. I mean to say that what they're saying is not only wrong, but is slanderous.

To claim that we earned a lot of profit and don't give back to the players is totally wrong. We increased our support of players. Raising the travel stipend is not just for Koreans, it's for every player in the league. This is an additional $8,000 we procured for players.


Do you seriously not know the difference between slander and libel? Jesus.
"It's like waxing your balls, it hurts like a biiiitch but after they are silky smooth...." -Kennigit
Ravencruiser
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada519 Posts
August 12 2011 17:49 GMT
#335
On the other hand, players who played in NASL Season 1 didnt get their security deposit and pay check (from winning tournament). Also, SC2Con decide that except FXOKorea who emerged with FXOpen, all teams and players decide not to participate in Season ll of NASL . (This paragraph is Fact, not opinion, I believe.)


If this was true then there is absolutely zero confusion as to why the Koreans withdrew.

Also, if this was true then the NASL organizers are complete greedy ****s.
"Yah, free will is a bitch" - Drone
NASL.tv
Profile Joined April 2011
699 Posts
August 12 2011 17:50 GMT
#336
Again -- we have said, that all prizes will be paid within 60 days. As of yesterday, it had been 31 days.

If Koreans waited until they got paid back fully all prizes, we would have to delay the season for another month. We can't do that. The fact that they were in 100% understanding of the deadlines we had for paying out prizes (they all signed the contracts) is key here.
mango_destroyer
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3914 Posts
August 12 2011 17:50 GMT
#337
On August 13 2011 02:47 taLbuk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.


protect their players sure, but according to NASL's response claims this article from TIG has points that are 100% false.

Nobody can be sure until we get an OFFICIAL response from sc2con


Official response or not, the sc2con EXISTS to protect its players as it is made up of coaches from each team. You don`t need an official response to know that their decision is solely to protect its players.
DjSpectre
Profile Joined February 2011
United States62 Posts
August 12 2011 17:50 GMT
#338
On August 13 2011 01:48 BaekHo wrote:"................Koreans are not being arrogant, rather they believe NASL is being amateur league that doesnt think or care about players but just hope to make profits out of it...............


This statement alone shows (I know it was the translators interjection, but it summed up the theme of the article in a lot of ways), that Korean players and teams are really not used to the American way of sports.

American sport enterprises exist to make money and make it in a big way. We have multiple multi-billion dollar professional sports all going at the same time, and all are ridiculously profitable.If there is a country to make a sport into an obscenely profitable enterprise, its the United States.

Koreans as well as players everywhere else are only here to make the sponsor's money by way of people using their products. If this statement wasn't true, then advertisers, sponsors and financial backers wouldn't participate. The players are there for the love of the game but in the end it becomes about the paycheck to the big companies behind the whole thing.

It's easier to get sponsor's here, there are more of them, even from companies not directly or indirectly affiliated with eSports. Koreans, I'd assert, aren't used to this because of the infamous lack of this.

If the Korean's can't handle or don't like the American sports machine model, then perhaps it's a good idea that they withdrew.
Consider that before you were alive, you were dead. After your life you will be dead. We spend more time being dead than alive. So don't waste your life.
Fubi
Profile Joined March 2011
2228 Posts
August 12 2011 17:50 GMT
#339
On August 13 2011 02:48 Azzur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.

Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it.


Yes, that is the main problem. Is there an actual signed contract for Season 2? We have still yet to hear an official response from NASL
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
August 12 2011 17:51 GMT
#340
Man, there's so much NASL drama that it makes me glad I can just sit down and watch IGN instead -_-'
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
zerglingsfolife
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1694 Posts
August 12 2011 17:52 GMT
#341
On August 13 2011 02:49 Ravencruiser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On the other hand, players who played in NASL Season 1 didnt get their security deposit and pay check (from winning tournament). Also, SC2Con decide that except FXOKorea who emerged with FXOpen, all teams and players decide not to participate in Season ll of NASL . (This paragraph is Fact, not opinion, I believe.)


If this was true then there is absolutely zero confusion as to why the Koreans withdrew.

Also, if this was true then the NASL organizers are complete greedy ****s.


There is a 60 day payback period after season 1 ended. It hasn't been 60 days yet... Some people have gotten their deposits back, and some are still waiting. But the 60 days isn't up.
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crown and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 17:54 GMT
#342
On August 13 2011 02:50 Fubi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:48 Azzur wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.

Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it.


Yes, that is the main problem. Is there an actual signed contract for Season 2? We have still yet to hear an official response from NASL

NASL responded with this a page ago:
On August 13 2011 02:37 NASL.tv wrote:
That is the issue -- we don't mind if they think that NASL is not a good option for them or they don't want to play. But when you sign up for qualifiers, you know the rules, procedures, and commitment required, and the day the season starts you quit the league, that is the issue.

Now, I'm not sure how airtight the contract is, but I'm guessing that signing up for the qualifiers for s2 meant you agreed with the s2 terms.
thebig1
Profile Joined March 2011
248 Posts
August 12 2011 17:54 GMT
#343
On August 13 2011 02:47 Azzur wrote:
If teams had an issue with the 2 month payment, they should've raised it before they signed. And don't use it as an excuse or say that NASL is disorganised.

i.e. Don't agree to something and then say that someone's performance is poor because they didn't do better than what was agreed.


It has nothing to do with them being disorganised. You must not dealt with any amount shipping or receiving in the real world. Again, just because legally they have a certain amount of time to pay it, doesn't mean that in the real world you normally use that time. People tend to get it out of the way early.

For example, if you buy something on ebay (or some such site) do you wait until your payment method starts getting on your back about it for you to pay, or do you just pay it as soon as it's practical?


And if you're talking about them not liking the contract from season 1, then sure maybe they should have. However, this isn't about season 1's contract, it's about season 2's. The contract that they seem to have rejected because they couldn't agree on it.
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
August 12 2011 17:55 GMT
#344
Unfortunately, it seems like the problem is that they're Korean. There's no way to make airplane rides and time zones disappear.

On the other hand, I think there's this sense that the Koreans don't need NASL and so don't care.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
NASL.tv
Profile Joined April 2011
699 Posts
August 12 2011 17:57 GMT
#345
On August 13 2011 02:50 Fubi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:48 Azzur wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.

Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it.


Yes, that is the main problem. Is there an actual signed contract for Season 2? We have still yet to hear an official response from NASL


WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.

Condor Hero
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2931 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:00:24
August 12 2011 17:59 GMT
#346
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:50 Fubi wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:48 Azzur wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.

Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it.


Yes, that is the main problem. Is there an actual signed contract for Season 2? We have still yet to hear an official response from NASL


WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.


Is your contract not enforceable?
thebig1
Profile Joined March 2011
248 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:06:35
August 12 2011 17:59 GMT
#347
I guess it should be asked of people and NASL is then. If they are on edge about money, and hadn't yet received it. From their point of view do you think it would have been a better idea to risk it and spend a month working for money, and then dropped out a month in screwing you over even harder? Or did what they did and cut out as the season was starting?

Please keep in mind that what they know isn't what you know, and "The check is in the mail" is a common excuse.


Edit: Either way, there is A LOT of things being said around SC2 that has no place being said. There are a reasons why companies release press releases and don't release information in blog posts, forum posts or on twitter.

This is NOT DIRECTED AT NASL AT ALL IN THE LEAST. Everyone does it, it's really really dumb.
Moonwrath
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States9568 Posts
August 12 2011 18:01 GMT
#348
From everything I've read, it sounds like NASL has bent over backwards to accommodate the Korean players for season 2. They lay everything out up front and they agreed to it. To pull out after that is pretty ridiculous.
화이탱!! @moonsoshi9
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:03:08
August 12 2011 18:01 GMT
#349
On August 13 2011 02:54 thebig1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:47 Azzur wrote:
If teams had an issue with the 2 month payment, they should've raised it before they signed. And don't use it as an excuse or say that NASL is disorganised.

i.e. Don't agree to something and then say that someone's performance is poor because they didn't do better than what was agreed.


It has nothing to do with them being disorganised. You must not dealt with any amount shipping or receiving in the real world. Again, just because legally they have a certain amount of time to pay it, doesn't mean that in the real world you normally use that time. People tend to get it out of the way early.

For example, if you buy something on ebay (or some such site) do you wait until your payment method starts getting on your back about it for you to pay, or do you just pay it as soon as it's practical?


And if you're talking about them not liking the contract from season 1, then sure maybe they should have. However, this isn't about season 1's contract, it's about season 2's. The contract that they seem to have rejected because they couldn't agree on it.

When I make a purchase of a product online, I read the terms on when the product will be shipped to me. If it says 14 days, then I expect that long. If the terms state 2 months, then I have no right to expect 1 month. If I don't like the terms of 2 months, I can always not purchase it. However, I have no right if I were to purchase it and then claim that "good businesses" normally do things in 14 days.

If I make goals with my boss and meet them, then my performance is "satisfactory". I would be angered if my boss comes back and says that my performance is poor because what we agreed on is not "how the real world functions".

The issue is that the koreans (appeared to) have signed the s2 qualifiers contract (which may or may not be airtight). I'm guessing that the contract stipulates the conditions of s2 and the expectations. Now, they are baulking at the contract - which is unethical.
Gojira621
Profile Joined October 2010
United States374 Posts
August 12 2011 18:03 GMT
#350
It's funny that you don't see any of the European players complaining this much when they travel around the world to go to major LANs like MLG and NASL and stuff.
www.twitch.tv/Gojira621
LetoAtreides82
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1188 Posts
August 12 2011 18:10 GMT
#351
"Secondly, players having hard time playing in NASL. In the first NASL Season, top Korean players like Boxer, moon, nada played in NASL. However, because of live cast, players had to wake about 4am every time there was tournament match - which caused players to be in low concentration and tiredness. Also, there were some case where schedule changed, and they did not play."

Wait I thought the regular season games weren't livecasted?
The spice must flow
jenzebubble
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States183 Posts
August 12 2011 18:10 GMT
#352
On August 13 2011 03:03 Gojira621 wrote:
It's funny that you don't see any of the European players complaining this much when they travel around the world to go to major LANs like MLG and NASL and stuff.


European players have their travel paid for by their sponsors.
"It's like waxing your balls, it hurts like a biiiitch but after they are silky smooth...." -Kennigit
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 18:12 GMT
#353
On August 13 2011 03:10 LetoAtreides82 wrote:
"Secondly, players having hard time playing in NASL. In the first NASL Season, top Korean players like Boxer, moon, nada played in NASL. However, because of live cast, players had to wake about 4am every time there was tournament match - which caused players to be in low concentration and tiredness. Also, there were some case where schedule changed, and they did not play."

These are valid reasons to not participate. But they are not valid reasons to sign a contract and then pull out.
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
August 12 2011 18:13 GMT
#354
On August 13 2011 02:17 kwhipped wrote:
Players that require the travel stipend will have EARNED the right to attend the Grand Finals of NASL. Some of them (Koreans and Europeans) will have to travel very far to get there. Also, this is where NASL gets most of their viewership and money from. There are only SIXTEEN players in the Grand Finals. With the ability to pay out $100000, how hard is it to have a travel stipend at maximum of $2000, and keep the prize pool the same? With S3, apparently they will be going for $250000 prize pool or something like that, so the ability is clearly there. The players who attend the NASL Grand Finals already have played through tough hours depending on their location, for 3 months. They are the players that will be getting NASL the most exposure. Treat them as such. I agree with the decision to not attend. For being a "major eSports" event, they are being stingy to their BEST players (not Korean, but the players who make up the Grand Finals), when they clearly have the resources to help all 16 players. ($32000 maximum...)


More reason to believe that Koreans are overestimating NASL's budget. This is why they tried to make that power play to squeeze what they can and failed. Look at the (better) translated article. They keep citing the big prize numbers as reason why they can get more. I hope they know NASL is ran by a rag tag team of community members, not some big corporation with deep pockets. They got one thing right, NASL is very disorganized haha. But they had plenty of chairs at the finals so they're not completely lost.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 18:14 GMT
#355
You guys should know that, many Koreans team are sponsorless (is this even word?)

Prime.WE doesnt have sponsor, as well as ZeNEX, fOu didnt have one, so contracted with FXO.

Only SlayerS IM has proper sponsor. all other teams are very low in income, i mean extremely low or

even 0. oGs, and MVP, I dont believe they have Korean sponsors, as well.
Redmark
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada2129 Posts
August 12 2011 18:14 GMT
#356
On August 13 2011 03:03 Gojira621 wrote:
It's funny that you don't see any of the European players complaining this much when they travel around the world to go to major LANs like MLG and NASL and stuff.

Except Europeans have complained about MLG and NASL? Thorzain and Naniwa off the top of my head.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:16:34
August 12 2011 18:15 GMT
#357
The last few days have shown me one thing - the SC2Con is a weak and poorly run organisation. First, it was the slander of Coach Lee's name based on false testimony from FD and Tester. Now, it is the NASL debacle. Instead of reminding the teams of their legal and ethical obligations (to something they have signed on), they threaten a withdrawal to secure better conditions.

I'm speculating, but it is no wonder that some teams are struggling to get sponsors. Sponsors dislike dealing with unprofessional people.

I think the players all deserve better - I'm hoping that teams or players will see the light and jump ship.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 18:18 GMT
#358
That might be why many Koreans hope to see sc1 and scll emerges. Korean progaming SCll Gaming is dying honestly. Having hard time in getting sponsors, I think TSL have sponsors though.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:19:34
August 12 2011 18:19 GMT
#359
On August 13 2011 03:14 BaekHo wrote:
You guys should know that, many Koreans team are sponsorless (is this even word?)

Prime.WE doesnt have sponsor, as well as ZeNEX, fOu didnt have one, so contracted with FXO.

Only SlayerS IM has proper sponsor. all other teams are very low in income, i mean extremely low or

even 0. oGs, and MVP, I dont believe they have Korean sponsors, as well.

From what has happened in the last few days (including the treatment of Coach Lee), they have been shown to be extremely unprofessional. And unprofessional teams don't attract sponsors.

Yes, I agree money is an issue, and I'm not blaming them for trying to secure better conditions. I also don't blame them if money prevents participation.

However, what I don't accept is their unethical way they went about it.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 18:20 GMT
#360
On August 13 2011 03:14 Redmark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:03 Gojira621 wrote:
It's funny that you don't see any of the European players complaining this much when they travel around the world to go to major LANs like MLG and NASL and stuff.

Except Europeans have complained about MLG and NASL? Thorzain and Naniwa off the top of my head.

Yeah, complaining and not participating is totally fine. What is not fine is saying that you will participate (and signing a contract) and then not showing up. Its not fine because the organisers have already planned things in advance.
Fubi
Profile Joined March 2011
2228 Posts
August 12 2011 18:21 GMT
#361
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:50 Fubi wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:48 Azzur wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.

Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it.


Yes, that is the main problem. Is there an actual signed contract for Season 2? We have still yet to hear an official response from NASL


WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



So if contracts already exist, are you not able to enforce them or take legal actions for breach of contracts?

I know you probably can't give out specific details regarding the actual terms of the contracts due to privacy reasons, but would be nice to get a general idea as to why all these problems are still currently exist when there are clear contracts in place
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 18:23 GMT
#362
On August 13 2011 03:21 Fubi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:50 Fubi wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:48 Azzur wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.

Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it.


Yes, that is the main problem. Is there an actual signed contract for Season 2? We have still yet to hear an official response from NASL


WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



So if contracts already exist, are you not able to enforce them or take legal actions for breach of contracts?

I know you probably can't give out specific details regarding the actual terms of the contracts due to privacy reasons, but would be nice to get a general idea as to why all these problems are still currently exist when there are clear contracts in place

Even if NASL did pursue the matter legally, it would be difficult to sue them for they have no money. The signed contracts did prove something - that SC2Con is not an organisation to be trusted. I hope the players realise this.
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
August 12 2011 18:24 GMT
#363
On August 13 2011 03:21 Fubi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:50 Fubi wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:48 Azzur wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:45 mango_destroyer wrote:
I can`t believe people give sc2con shit for making a decision to protect its players. People really need to start thinking clearly.

Yeah, but if protecting their players meant going against a SIGNED contract - then it is unethical. If it's in the negotiation phase, then I have no problems with it.


Yes, that is the main problem. Is there an actual signed contract for Season 2? We have still yet to hear an official response from NASL


WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



So if contracts already exist, are you not able to enforce them or take legal actions for breach of contracts?

I know you probably can't give out specific details regarding the actual terms of the contracts due to privacy reasons, but would be nice to get a general idea as to why all these problems are still currently exist when there are clear contracts in place


Sure they probably could sue for breach of contract...

1) But litigation is expensive. If NASL cannot afford to pay Koreans more how can they afford to litigate?
2) Even if they litigate, will they be successful?
3) Even if they are successful, they will earn damages. Unless damages are stated in the contract, how is the value going to be determined? My guess is a court would give NASL a very small amount
4) If they are not successful how can they now afford to cover legal fees for the defendant?
5) Regardless of outcome, this would affect NASL's perception - what kind of person would want to sign contracts with NASL knowing the potential consequences? (NFL teams don't enforce long-term season ticket contracts - bad PR)

I think 3 and 5 are the big points here. There's very little to be gained with a lot to be lost, even with successful litigation.
hesho89
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada106 Posts
August 12 2011 18:25 GMT
#364
hmmm.. so to me, this seems like not all the money has been passed around. Even NASL has said they have 60 days to pay them (which is in their contract) but some of the teams had to pay the cost of travel upfront and hasn't been paid back hence y they backed out. I have to admit though, seems kinda weird how the prizes of the first season hasn't all been paid out yet but season 2 is starting...
eh?
NASL.tv
Profile Joined April 2011
699 Posts
August 12 2011 18:25 GMT
#365
We are not planning of doing anything of the sort -- we're going to move on with our lives, and make sure NASL Season 2 is awesome !
jenzebubble
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States183 Posts
August 12 2011 18:26 GMT
#366
On August 13 2011 03:25 NASL.tv wrote:
We are not planning of doing anything of the sort -- we're going to move on with our lives, and make sure NASL Season 2 is awesome !


Sorry to hear about S3.
"It's like waxing your balls, it hurts like a biiiitch but after they are silky smooth...." -Kennigit
bucckevin
Profile Joined April 2011
858 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:28:05
August 12 2011 18:27 GMT
#367
On August 13 2011 03:19 Azzur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:14 BaekHo wrote:
You guys should know that, many Koreans team are sponsorless (is this even word?)

Prime.WE doesnt have sponsor, as well as ZeNEX, fOu didnt have one, so contracted with FXO.

Only SlayerS IM has proper sponsor. all other teams are very low in income, i mean extremely low or

even 0. oGs, and MVP, I dont believe they have Korean sponsors, as well.

From what has happened in the last few days (including the treatment of Coach Lee), they have been shown to be extremely unprofessional. And unprofessional teams don't attract sponsors.

Yes, I agree money is an issue, and I'm not blaming them for trying to secure better conditions. I also don't blame them if money prevents participation.

However, what I don't accept is their unethical way they went about it.


So I guess the only professional SC2 team in Korea is SlayerS right? They got all those sponsors because of Jessica's hard work and her connections. oGs, MVP, fOu, and the rest of the korean teams barely have any sponsors or even none at all. TSL has some sponsors but coach Lee still had to take out loans to support the team. IM were sponsor-less until recently. Even then, they had to be sponsored by a local chicken restaurant lol.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:38:50
August 12 2011 18:28 GMT
#368
Regarding the contracts and suing:

Specific Performance is not a remedy used in law for enforcement of contracts (generally speaking). Damages is the preferred remedy for breach of contract. The question is if the damages are worth the pursuit of legal remedies (i'm guessing it's not great expense to delay production and find new players; the claim that worse players produces worse revenue may be possible, but i just don't think they'd have the proof they need for this), if there is a lawyers fees clause in the contract (without one it's not worth suing), and what the choice of laws clause says (and the law of that jurisdiction).


Honestly, the damages aren't going to be that high, the hassle will be great, and i'm not sure if NASL hired an actual lawyer to draft a contract with these types of protections in them. I'm guessing legal remedies are off the table. It's a war of public confidence and credibitlity.
waitwhat
Profile Joined February 2011
United States152 Posts
August 12 2011 18:28 GMT
#369
I like how he made a statement about how NASL is out to make money. Does he not realize it's a fucking business? Of course they're out to make money. I don't understand this Korean's logic one bit. I am definitely not an NASL fan, but I do side with them when it comes to this matter. It's quite absurd that they kept offering more and more to help the Koreans come over and basically got shit on through this guy's opinion.

Also, why does it matter if some teams have sponsors and some don't? SlayerS and IM have proper sponsorships and aren't participating either.
TeeTS
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany2762 Posts
August 12 2011 18:28 GMT
#370
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.
gregnog
Profile Joined December 2010
United States289 Posts
August 12 2011 18:29 GMT
#371
That entire post seems like a load of shit. I don't believe more then a few words in this entire post. Even the stuff that seems truthful, its like... why even bring it up? Your making yourself look bad. The Korean elitism shows through again right here.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
August 12 2011 18:30 GMT
#372
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best.
NASL.tv
Profile Joined April 2011
699 Posts
August 12 2011 18:31 GMT
#373
On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best.


Correct
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:36:12
August 12 2011 18:32 GMT
#374
On August 13 2011 03:27 bucckevin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:19 Azzur wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:14 BaekHo wrote:
You guys should know that, many Koreans team are sponsorless (is this even word?)

Prime.WE doesnt have sponsor, as well as ZeNEX, fOu didnt have one, so contracted with FXO.

Only SlayerS IM has proper sponsor. all other teams are very low in income, i mean extremely low or

even 0. oGs, and MVP, I dont believe they have Korean sponsors, as well.

From what has happened in the last few days (including the treatment of Coach Lee), they have been shown to be extremely unprofessional. And unprofessional teams don't attract sponsors.

Yes, I agree money is an issue, and I'm not blaming them for trying to secure better conditions. I also don't blame them if money prevents participation.

However, what I don't accept is their unethical way they went about it.


So I guess the only professional SC2 team in Korea is SlayerS right? They got all those sponsors because of Jessica's hard work and her connections. oGs, MVP, fOu, and the rest of the korean teams barely have any sponsors or even none at all. TSL has some sponsors but coach Lee still had to take out loans to support the team. IM were sponsor-less until recently. Even then, they had to be sponsored by a local chicken restaurant lol.

Don't forget FXOKorea (lol deL :p) is also a professional team. Also look at Boxer's professionalism - he toughed out the NASL season because he agreed to it upfront, but withdrew from S2. Obviously, we all hold him in high esteem and this is just further evidence of it. I wonder what he must be thinking about SC2Con???

Also, I'm not 100% sure if IM is part of the SC2Con (anyone can enlighten me on this?). Anyways, if I'm not wrong, they have no players in NASL and thus they didn't sign anything (correct me if I'm wrong). I also like Nestea's attitude - if he doesn't like the conditions, he just doesn't participate - no qq about bad conditions, etc

Also, nothing wrong with a chicken sponsorship (although i think the chicken sponsors were for oGs and Prime). IM's sponsor is Coke I think.
Jojo131
Profile Joined January 2011
Brazil1631 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:35:13
August 12 2011 18:33 GMT
#375
On August 13 2011 02:52 zerglingsfolife wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:49 Ravencruiser wrote:
On the other hand, players who played in NASL Season 1 didnt get their security deposit and pay check (from winning tournament). Also, SC2Con decide that except FXOKorea who emerged with FXOpen, all teams and players decide not to participate in Season ll of NASL . (This paragraph is Fact, not opinion, I believe.)


If this was true then there is absolutely zero confusion as to why the Koreans withdrew.

Also, if this was true then the NASL organizers are complete greedy ****s.


There is a 60 day payback period after season 1 ended. It hasn't been 60 days yet... Some people have gotten their deposits back, and some are still waiting. But the 60 days isn't up.


Participants paid the security deposit so that NASL can have a leash tied on them in case any disciplinary issues happened in the league. Those who weren't charged of anything deserve their money sent back. I can't imagine why the money would just be sitting there waiting to get claimed rather then being sent back, is NASL trying to make a quick buck out of people who forget/misunderstand the policy?



User was warned for this post
udgnim
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8024 Posts
August 12 2011 18:34 GMT
#376
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


litigation costs lots of money. NASL suing Korean teams would only create bad publicity for NASL even if NASL is in the right. it's not worth the time and effort.

it sucks that contracts can't really be enforced by NASL (other than security deposit garnishes), but that is basically all the power NASL has in this situation
E-Sports is competitive video gaming with a spectator fan base. Do not take the word "Sports" literally.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 18:35 GMT
#377
On August 13 2011 03:33 Jojo131 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:52 zerglingsfolife wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:49 Ravencruiser wrote:
On the other hand, players who played in NASL Season 1 didnt get their security deposit and pay check (from winning tournament). Also, SC2Con decide that except FXOKorea who emerged with FXOpen, all teams and players decide not to participate in Season ll of NASL . (This paragraph is Fact, not opinion, I believe.)


If this was true then there is absolutely zero confusion as to why the Koreans withdrew.

Also, if this was true then the NASL organizers are complete greedy ****s.


There is a 60 day payback period after season 1 ended. It hasn't been 60 days yet... Some people have gotten their deposits back, and some are still waiting. But the 60 days isn't up.


Participants paid the security deposit so that NASL can have a leash tied on them in case any disciplinary actions happened in the league. Those who weren't charged of anything deserve their money sent back.


I personally don't agree with the security deposit. However, I would've raised it up before I signed anything. And definitely not agree to it and then qq later.
purecarnagge
Profile Joined August 2010
719 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:38:51
August 12 2011 18:38 GMT
#378
On August 13 2011 03:15 Azzur wrote:
The last few days have shown me one thing - the SC2Con is a weak and poorly run organisation. First, it was the slander of Coach Lee's name based on false testimony from FD and Tester. Now, it is the NASL debacle. Instead of reminding the teams of their legal and ethical obligations (to something they have signed on), they threaten a withdrawal to secure better conditions.

I'm speculating, but it is no wonder that some teams are struggling to get sponsors. Sponsors dislike dealing with unprofessional people.

I think the players all deserve better - I'm hoping that teams or players will see the light and jump ship.


Why the Koreans are getting everything they want by being unified. They are also creating demand for themselves.

So far the Koreans seem unwilling to honor their committments. Its all very political and sometimes shady.
muddymuddy
Profile Joined May 2011
United States22 Posts
August 12 2011 18:38 GMT
#379
On August 13 2011 03:33 Jojo131 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:52 zerglingsfolife wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:49 Ravencruiser wrote:
On the other hand, players who played in NASL Season 1 didnt get their security deposit and pay check (from winning tournament). Also, SC2Con decide that except FXOKorea who emerged with FXOpen, all teams and players decide not to participate in Season ll of NASL . (This paragraph is Fact, not opinion, I believe.)


If this was true then there is absolutely zero confusion as to why the Koreans withdrew.

Also, if this was true then the NASL organizers are complete greedy ****s.


There is a 60 day payback period after season 1 ended. It hasn't been 60 days yet... Some people have gotten their deposits back, and some are still waiting. But the 60 days isn't up.


Participants paid the security deposit so that NASL can have a leash tied on them in case any disciplinary issues happened in the league. Those who weren't charged of anything deserve their money sent back. I can't imagine why the money would just be sitting there waiting to get claimed rather then being sent back, is NASL trying to make a quick buck out of people who forget/misunderstand the policy?




The security deposits have been and are being paid back in a timely manner as decided between NASL and the Korean teams before the season even started. This has been proven by posts in this thread by NASL.

Please read the thread before throwing around such accusations.
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:39:36
August 12 2011 18:39 GMT
#380
Seems like the translation might've just been understood by SC2Con IMO. It'd be a shame if this was all due to misunderstanding.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 18:40 GMT
#381
On August 13 2011 03:28 waitwhat wrote:
I like how he made a statement about how NASL is out to make money. Does he not realize it's a fucking business? Of course they're out to make money. I don't understand this Korean's logic one bit. I am definitely not an NASL fan, but I do side with them when it comes to this matter. It's quite absurd that they kept offering more and more to help the Koreans come over and basically got shit on through this guy's opinion.

Also, why does it matter if some teams have sponsors and some don't? SlayerS and IM have proper sponsorships and aren't participating either.

Same, I'm not a NASL fan. I don't quite like the format and how it's run. However, I support them 100% on this matter.

What I've learned from this is that SC2Con is a hopeless organisation. Hopefully, more people will realise this and things in korea will change for the better.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:44:48
August 12 2011 18:43 GMT
#382
On August 13 2011 03:38 purecarnagge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:15 Azzur wrote:
The last few days have shown me one thing - the SC2Con is a weak and poorly run organisation. First, it was the slander of Coach Lee's name based on false testimony from FD and Tester. Now, it is the NASL debacle. Instead of reminding the teams of their legal and ethical obligations (to something they have signed on), they threaten a withdrawal to secure better conditions.

I'm speculating, but it is no wonder that some teams are struggling to get sponsors. Sponsors dislike dealing with unprofessional people.

I think the players all deserve better - I'm hoping that teams or players will see the light and jump ship.


Why the Koreans are getting everything they want by being unified. They are also creating demand for themselves.

So far the Koreans seem unwilling to honor their committments. Its all very political and sometimes shady.

But there are upstanding koreans (e.g. boxer ) who will continue to be a beacon. Don't under-estimate his influence on the sphere of e-sports. Also don't forget the power of the fans. The korean fans are clever, they will see through the unprofessional nature of SC2Con. Just like what has happened with the Coach Lee fiasco. The sponsors have money, and they will in no way want to be associated with unprofessionalism and unethical behaviour.

I'm predicting that there will be repercussions in the future for SC2Con.
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
August 12 2011 18:45 GMT
#383
On August 13 2011 03:34 udgnim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


litigation costs lots of money. NASL suing Korean teams would only create bad publicity for NASL even if NASL is in the right. it's not worth the time and effort.

it sucks that contracts can't really be enforced by NASL (other than security deposit garnishes), but that is basically all the power NASL has in this situation


I recently had to manage a contract employee overseas and it is an absolute nightmare. Even with a lucrative contract in placed they missed every deadline they agreed to up front.

A deposit might seem a little unorthodox, but I understand why NASL requires one, considering they are dealing with international competition. A contract is extremely difficult and costly to enforce in a long distance arrangement. You have to be either willing to turn a blind eye or make sure both parties have skin in the game.
skipgamer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia701 Posts
August 12 2011 18:46 GMT
#384
Due to all that's been said, I can't see a way out of this unless both sides just accept that they have said what they need to and move on. Otherwise there's going to be more threads exactly like this which have no effect other than people arguing, and creating a divide about who is right, NASL or the Koreans.

All in all, this situation is not good for anyone, the Korean's look bad for backing out at the last minute, and NASL look bad for not catering to Korean's, the fans get divided not knowing who is truly at fault, and everyone makes less money... Would it not serve everyone better to accept each other's points of view, and not look at the situation hostilely, but rather as an unfortunate missed opportunity?
RedJustice
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1004 Posts
August 12 2011 18:47 GMT
#385
With all the drama that's been happening the past few months, I tend to agree with the sentiment: Korea may have the best sc2 players, but they still haven't gotten their shit together when it comes to running things professionally over there (for SC2-- BW different story). I would guess it's cause they have the internal infrastructure, but have never had to deal with the international scene in any big way... and now they are having a bit of a rude awakening over all of this.

They signed contracts... they backed out at the last minute over incredibly unreasonable monetary demands ($2k for the final offer seems quite fair compared to the original $500, lol). NASL seemed quite willing to compromise and work with them. IMO very shitty move by SC2Con.
soulist
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States932 Posts
August 12 2011 18:47 GMT
#386
In the last part of the Korean response, it is said that the nasl did not pay back the security deposit and the pay check for winning the tournament. So Puma and everyone else have not gotten their prize money?
Evil Geniuses<3
reddog1999
Profile Joined June 2009
United States143 Posts
August 12 2011 18:47 GMT
#387
Korean players are great I dont think anyone has ever had a problem with the players. The korean organizations though on another hand..
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
August 12 2011 18:50 GMT
#388
On August 13 2011 03:47 soulist wrote:
In the last part of the Korean response, it is said that the nasl did not pay back the security deposit and the pay check for winning the tournament. So Puma and everyone else have not gotten their prize money?


To reiterate, NASL has 60 days to pay back, it's been about a month and they've just started paying back now, so they're still kosher.
TeeTS
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany2762 Posts
August 12 2011 18:50 GMT
#389
On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best.


Correct


Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
August 12 2011 18:55 GMT
#390
The Korean organizations are CLEARLY in the wrong here.

If you don't want to join our league, fine. I'm ok with that. But don't commit and then de-commit.

Personally, I'd rather watch NA server players duke it out, even if it's not the same level. I get bored watching my favorites get steamrolled by foreigners (yes, here, they are the foreigners).

Unlike in SC1, SC2 in America does not need the Koreans to survive. The sooner Koreans realize this, the better off they will be. We are more than capable of maintaining a pro-gaming scene with local players, and if they are unwilling to work with westerners, they are the ones who will be losing out.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 18:57 GMT
#391
On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best.


Correct


Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.

Well, that's how some of these contracts work. In many other situations (not just this), there are contracts where damages are not worth pursuing. However, what the contracts do is proof of credibility - and the backing out of the contracts points to an unethical SC2Con.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 18:57 GMT
#392
On August 13 2011 03:55 BluePanther wrote:
The Korean organizations are CLEARLY in the wrong here.

If you don't want to join our league, fine. I'm ok with that. But don't commit and then de-commit.

Personally, I'd rather watch NA server players duke it out, even if it's not the same level. I get bored watching my favorites get steamrolled by foreigners (yes, here, they are the foreigners).

Unlike in SC1, SC2 in America does not need the Koreans to survive. The sooner Koreans realize this, the better off they will be. We are more than capable of maintaining a pro-gaming scene with local players, and if they are unwilling to work with westerners, they are the ones who will be losing out.

Exactly!

Arguing about whether the conditions is good/bad is all irrelevant.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 18:59 GMT
#393
I'm interested to know who forms the SC2Con? Which teams/coaches are involved?

Also interesting would be Liquid's partnership with oGs. I have a feeling Nazgul will not tolerate these unethical shenanigans.
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
August 12 2011 19:00 GMT
#394
On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best.


Correct


Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.

And this is where the $500 deposit comes in. When the contract gets broken they deduct money from the deposit. But in this situation it seemed like the koreans never paid the deposit so nasl can't really do anything.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
August 12 2011 19:01 GMT
#395
On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best.


Correct


Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.


You have to prove that financial damage though. If you have a problem with how the law works, you'll have to contact your state government and ask them to change it. punitive damages in contracts are taboo in the united states and no court is going to award them.

It's:

a.) not worth the effort for the amount they'd collect, even if they did get their lawyers fees paid for (and for those non-americans, the default in our system is each side pays their own lawyer regardless of who wins)

b.) only creating negative publicity, which an organization like NASL doesn't want. This is the same reason big corporations will just pay people off to make lawsuits go away. Even if they collect 2k in damages, the negative publicity will likely cost them more than that in revenue over time.
fer
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada375 Posts
August 12 2011 19:02 GMT
#396
On August 12 2011 16:04 jjw wrote:

Of course, its very good opportunities for players to play in foreign tournament which will give them chances to play against good foreign players and experience foreign community, but it is important to not forget that they are 'pro' gamers and not participate in amateur tournament. (NOTE: Although this sound offensive, i believe he meant amateur tournament as NOT skill wise, he doesn't seem to think foreign players are scrubs, he thinks that amateur tournament are those who doesn't provide player's environment very well)

...


Finally I hope (reporter) NASL stop Tournaments, or supports players better, and be better in tournament operating.




Couldn't agree more with both these statements.
If I had to pick one word to describe the NASL Season 1, it'd be amateur for sure. I also agree these type of tournaments need to be weeded out, as the bar has already been set so far higher than what NASL provided.

Let's hope for a breakthrough Season 2 I guess.
WellPlayed.org <3
BlueFlames
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1756 Posts
August 12 2011 19:03 GMT
#397
On August 13 2011 03:47 soulist wrote:
In the last part of the Korean response, it is said that the nasl did not pay back the security deposit and the pay check for winning the tournament. So Puma and everyone else have not gotten their prize money?


+ Show Spoiler +
FFS read the effing thread you are writing in. How about that. Maybe your question has been answered 20 times already, even with proof. Guess what it was answered and you are just wasting everyones time by asking the same stupid question again. Maybe you should learn how to use the search-function of your browser to find answers. Or maybe you should stop posting if you dont intent to read the thread anyways. But i have a better idea. How about, ever OP edits his post so many times that you dont have to look for anything anymore... This thread and the other one are starting to make me really angry. If you dont want to read the whole thread, just read the fucking bolded persons that have a special icon ...


All in all i really hope the SC2Con will have to pay for their behavior. Guess SlayersJessica should lead this bunch. Maybe we would get an organisation that could be trusted. In the end the fans and the players lose and thats really sad. I dont understand their attitude at all. The international SC2 scene is bigger and has way more financial capabilites and is still supposed to bow down to korean rules and wishes? That does not make any sense at all to me.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
August 12 2011 19:03 GMT
#398
On the bright side, at least NASL can pick up some new talent!
BigLighthouse
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom424 Posts
August 12 2011 19:04 GMT
#399
In my personal oppinion the only reason this is an issue is because the Korean teams brought it up late. If they'd never bothered to try and qualify for the season this would be fine, no one would care and we'd all understand that their budget simply couldnt stretch. As it is, theyv buggered up everyone by claiming they'd play (entered qualifiers, signed contracts) and then not actually playing. Yeah they may have good reasons for not competing in NASL but they fucked up when they didnt consider those reasons earlier. They should never have entered.
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
August 12 2011 19:05 GMT
#400
On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best.


Correct


Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.


Welcome to the real world.

Ever see someone sue but they signed a waiver? Ever hear of athletes holding out in sports even though they have contracts?

Right now, Chris Johnson a running back for the Tennessee Titans(NFL) has a contract to play football this year. He refuses to show up and play unless he gets a new contract. He SIGNED a contract to play, but refuses to. He is breaking his contract, but you know what in the long run he'll end up getting paid.

Contracts do have some legal recourse for sure, but sometimes the process to go through(legal means) isn't even worth it. Again, welcome to the real world of business.
BlueFlames
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1756 Posts
August 12 2011 19:10 GMT
#401
On August 13 2011 04:05 FLuE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best.


Correct


Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.


Welcome to the real world.

Ever see someone sue but they signed a waiver? Ever hear of athletes holding out in sports even though they have contracts?

Right now, Chris Johnson a running back for the Tennessee Titans(NFL) has a contract to play football this year. He refuses to show up and play unless he gets a new contract. He SIGNED a contract to play, but refuses to. He is breaking his contract, but you know what in the long run he'll end up getting paid.

Contracts do have some legal recourse for sure, but sometimes the process to go through(legal means) isn't even worth it. Again, welcome to the real world of business.


From a business viewpoint you are right. From a fans viewpoint i am deeply dissapointed by the actions of the SC2Con.
Kurr
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2338 Posts
August 12 2011 19:15 GMT
#402
On August 13 2011 03:40 Azzur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:28 waitwhat wrote:
I like how he made a statement about how NASL is out to make money. Does he not realize it's a fucking business? Of course they're out to make money. I don't understand this Korean's logic one bit. I am definitely not an NASL fan, but I do side with them when it comes to this matter. It's quite absurd that they kept offering more and more to help the Koreans come over and basically got shit on through this guy's opinion.

Also, why does it matter if some teams have sponsors and some don't? SlayerS and IM have proper sponsorships and aren't participating either.

Same, I'm not a NASL fan. I don't quite like the format and how it's run. However, I support them 100% on this matter.

What I've learned from this is that SC2Con is a hopeless organisation. Hopefully, more people will realise this and things in korea will change for the better.


Agreed 100%. This situation is so pathetic overall. It's making me want to stop following SC2. It's disheartening to see organizations (SC2Con) that are supposed to be holding the scene together and helping it grow are apparently doing their best to harm it.

I am not impressed at all. I don't want to support them in any way, even if they couldn't care less about my view. Just going to stop watching Korean SC2. As a viewer on the sideline, this is just insulting to watch unfold. I feel like I'm supporting deceptive people and it bothers. I hope others will follow suit so they understand : trying to sabotage tournaments (or at least, forcing them in this situation) is not something the fans are going to take without responding. To me, they have damaged their reputation beyond repair already.

I can understand the Koreans not wanting to play at ungodly hours with lag to lose a BO3 single elimination tournament 3 months later, but they simply didn't need to sign up for it. With all these complaints and underhanded ways of doing things being brought to the surface, it's ridiculous to side with them or support them in the future.

Overall, I urge people to think about if they really want to support the Korean scene after this crap (because let's face it, SC2Con is the face of the Korean scene). GomTV is not to blame if we take NASL's statements, but they are the only outlet for the Korean scene so too bad. GSL is the best SC2 to follow, but I'd rather stand by my point than support these people.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
August 12 2011 19:18 GMT
#403
On August 13 2011 04:10 BlueFlames wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:05 FLuE wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:31 NASL.tv wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:30 BluePanther wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:28 TeeTS wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote:

WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.



If that is actual true, then why the hell don't you take proceedings against those teams. If you have a legit contract, you can force them to participate or compensate for it. That's what contracts are made for. So the fact, that you don't pull this into consideration, makes me think that you might have had an pre-contractual agreement, but nothing that could stand before a court.
If I'm wrong and you got it, then I have no idea, why you don't make use of it.


see my post above. they can't force participation, and the compensation would be minimal at best.


Correct


Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.


Welcome to the real world.

Ever see someone sue but they signed a waiver? Ever hear of athletes holding out in sports even though they have contracts?

Right now, Chris Johnson a running back for the Tennessee Titans(NFL) has a contract to play football this year. He refuses to show up and play unless he gets a new contract. He SIGNED a contract to play, but refuses to. He is breaking his contract, but you know what in the long run he'll end up getting paid.

Contracts do have some legal recourse for sure, but sometimes the process to go through(legal means) isn't even worth it. Again, welcome to the real world of business.


From a business viewpoint you are right. From a fans viewpoint i am deeply dissapointed by the actions of the SC2Con.


I agree 100%. It is a sad situation and disappointing. I just wanted to make the point that calling NASL's contracts "faulty" or something like that isn't the case. When you have professional players finding ways out of contracts, and you know those are written by some of the best lawyers around, it isn't surprising to hear it happen on a lesser level.

Contracts are a funny thing because if you know that it would cost more for the legal action in both money, time and energy than to just let you break the contract you can get away with doing just that.
Solinos
Profile Joined January 2011
United States105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 19:21:33
August 12 2011 19:20 GMT
#404
This really sucks - I liked watching NASL games a couple of times a week before going to sleep (at a reasonable hour *cough*). It seems like SC2Con is being a little bratty, and accusing NASL of being greedy and not looking after players is pretty low. Things like this and the mix-up with TSL make SC2Con seem like such a hindrance.
kineSiS-
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Korea (South)1068 Posts
August 12 2011 19:24 GMT
#405
So many uninformed opinions here. =\ And just FYI, tickets are approximately 1500 dollars.
Kurr
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2338 Posts
August 12 2011 19:25 GMT
#406
On August 13 2011 04:24 kineSiS- wrote:
So many uninformed opinions here. =\ And just FYI, tickets are approximately 1500 dollars.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750&currentpage=14#277

Yes, many uninformed opinions indeed. Maybe read the long threads on the subject first?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Solinos
Profile Joined January 2011
United States105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 19:38:38
August 12 2011 19:28 GMT
#407
On August 13 2011 04:24 kineSiS- wrote:
So many uninformed opinions here. =\ And just FYI, tickets are approximately 1500 dollars.



Yes, for instance, the constant arguing that $2000 isn't enough money.

Edit: Above link is something I'd trust. But even supposing that the costs of traveling went over $2000, it doesn't seem like it's advantageous to the players to forfeit the chance to win a substantial amount of money over a matter of $100-200, and the whole SC2Con chest beating isn't necessary, either.
Hammurabio
Profile Joined August 2010
152 Posts
August 12 2011 19:35 GMT
#408
On August 13 2011 02:50 NASL.tv wrote:
Again -- we have said, that all prizes will be paid within 60 days. As of yesterday, it had been 31 days.

If Koreans waited until they got paid back fully all prizes, we would have to delay the season for another month. We can't do that. The fact that they were in 100% understanding of the deadlines we had for paying out prizes (they all signed the contracts) is key here.


Just a question. I understand NASL is under no obligation to pay out the prize money until day 60. But with the Koreans teams struggling with finances, have you considered paying the prize money out now? NASL has said repeatedly that the $400K prize money for the first three seasons has already been secured. NASL already has the stream subscription money, and the Finals ticket money. If the money is already available, why not just send it to them right away?

Two main reasons to delay sending the money ASAP are (which I don't think apply to the current situation):
A. There isn't enough money yet, waiting for S2 stream sales to come it.
B. They want to make money on 'the float'. But $50,000K for 60 days is only about $83 in interest.

Again, I do understand that the contract allows NASL to wait the full 60 days, but nothing prevents NASL from paying early.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 19:37 GMT
#409
On August 13 2011 04:25 Kurr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:24 kineSiS- wrote:
So many uninformed opinions here. =\ And just FYI, tickets are approximately 1500 dollars.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750&currentpage=14#277

Yes, many uninformed opinions indeed. Maybe read the long threads on the subject first?

Actually, I'm not sure who the uninformed opinions kineSiS was referring to. I'll give kineSiS the benefit of the doubt until clarification.
PrimeTimey
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada369 Posts
August 12 2011 19:39 GMT
#410
Why don't the teams pay for their players like it has been in eSports since the 90s. Also, thinking NASL is making money is hilarious.
Nerski
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1095 Posts
August 12 2011 19:40 GMT
#411
What are you talking about? I'm managing Team Liquid and I can tell you that the planetickets cost around 1200 $ for a return ticket. Hotel during the event wouldn't be more than 400$ and then you can eat and drink for less than 50$ a day. What's the problem here? 2000 $ is more than sufficient to cover all costs


This statement by the manager of TL pretty much sums it all up from the previous NASL statement.

2k covers expenses....if the teams can't afford it up front it can be deducted from their winnings. So if a korean makes the finals and finishes 16th the basically end up breaking even and haven't spent a dime.

Also the Deposit makes sense for an American run league....why? US tournaments don't have a Kespa / sc2con or whatever at their disposal to punish players / teams that don't follow the rules. So having a deposit that you can deduct money from for failure to do what you agreed to is more the reasonable considering the exposure and amount possible to win of the league.
Twitter: @GoForNerski /// Youtube: Youtube.com/nerskisc
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 19:40 GMT
#412
On August 13 2011 04:35 Hammurabio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:50 NASL.tv wrote:
Again -- we have said, that all prizes will be paid within 60 days. As of yesterday, it had been 31 days.

If Koreans waited until they got paid back fully all prizes, we would have to delay the season for another month. We can't do that. The fact that they were in 100% understanding of the deadlines we had for paying out prizes (they all signed the contracts) is key here.


Just a question. I understand NASL is under no obligation to pay out the prize money until day 60. But with the Koreans teams struggling with finances, have you considered paying the prize money out now? NASL has said repeatedly that the $400K prize money for the first three seasons has already been secured. NASL already has the stream subscription money, and the Finals ticket money. If the money is already available, why not just send it to them right away?

Two main reasons to delay sending the money ASAP are (which I don't think apply to the current situation):
A. There isn't enough money yet, waiting for S2 stream sales to come it.
B. They want to make money on 'the float'. But $50,000K for 60 days is only about $83 in interest.

Again, I do understand that the contract allows NASL to wait the full 60 days, but nothing prevents NASL from paying early.

Yep, NASL can in good faith pay out early. And I think if the SC2Con asked for this consideration - maybe NASL would've been helpful.

Instead, non-payment by NASL was deemed as disorganised, which according to the terms that was agreed, was not. In other words, SC2Con shouldn't have used non-payment as a PR weapon.
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
August 12 2011 19:43 GMT
#413
On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:
Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.

By far most value from a signed contract comes from the loyalty both signees attach to their autographs. It solves 90% of the situations without a court case. Saying their contracts are not worth the paper they're printed on is offensive and dumb.
Administrator
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 19:46:54
August 12 2011 19:44 GMT
#414
On August 13 2011 04:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:50 TeeTS wrote:
Then I'm very sorry for you, but then your contracts are not even worth the paper they're printed on. I really don't get the point of making a contract that does not punish breaking it, if breaking it would cause a lot of trouble and financial damage (and that will happen!) to the other party. That's just unreasonable and stupid.

By far most value from a signed contract comes from the loyalty both signees attach to their autographs. It solves 90% of the situations without a court case. Saying their contracts are not worth the paper they're printed on is offensive and dumb.

Glad to see an authority in this thread! Hope you can answer a few questions if possible.

Who makes up the SC2Con? Which teams / coaches?

What is Liquid's stance on this matter? Will it affect the partnership with oGs?
Chodes
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada212 Posts
August 12 2011 19:46 GMT
#415
I believe the Koreans NASL has always been a shoddy corporation
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | "Sup Son"- SeleCT"~~MMA Fighting!!
Fluffdaddy
Profile Joined August 2010
United States19 Posts
August 12 2011 19:47 GMT
#416
How many times does it have to be posted that NASL offered $1000 and upped the prize pool so they could use there own prize pool money to pay their own way?

This is not the same thing as NASL giving a $2000 stipend.

The Koreans brought the viewers, NASL made money off their participation. Now the Koreans are making a power move to show the NASL they aren't shit without them.

And they are right. The NASL finals was an High School AV club production and was saved by an amazing display of skill by Korean players.

The deposit thing might seem like small change, but its also insulting. NASL took $250, haven't returned it yet, and are now wanting $500 dollars.

Lets say a Korean makes it to the offline finals. They get bounced in the first round. They get their $1000 stipend, The $1000 prize pool (which won't get paid for 60 days). Of that, the player gets like $250 - $300 bucks for themselves, which is less than the $500 they have already given NASL. This is after 9 weeks of getting up at the ass crack of dawn every week to play a BO3.

Oh, and the icing on the cake, after arriving at the airport, NASL is their to pick you up. Well, that's kind of them. Except they have their hands out asking for another 80 dollars.

Why would anyone want to participate in this?
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 19:50 GMT
#417
I dont think you guys should be like "im so dissapointed in Korean Progaming team and players."

No, I mean NO. First, it was decision made by coaches and players. Of course, above the sea, from what we see, result is players and team not playing in NASL anymore, but I want you guys to know that there is a lot more than what we know.

Think about it, you are progamer, and you have opporturnities in playing tournament that will last for months, but if you go to grandfinal, you will be able to make some profit out of it. Would you not play in tournament? Korean progamers and pro team are well aware of foreign fans yet they made this decision?

Why? I dont know dont ask me. They knew that such decision will cause havoc in foreign community but for what sake did they gave up spot? They believe that foreign tournaments like Dreamhack MLG IEM are nothing but shitty foreign tournaments that you can just ignore? I mean No.

You have to understand, majority of Korean gamers are extremely poor and dont make income at all. Of course I cannot talk about all things in here, but dont just be like "Ok these guys gave up NASL, they are dumb XXXX now gtfo from foreign I wont watch you anymore" but act mature, think carefully.

A lot of Korean pro gaming teams are not sponsored, did you heard SlayerSGanzi story in MLG? he came to States with his own travel expenses. Ironically, Korean teams who is known as better skill than foreign team dont have sponsors, so nobody pay them travel expenses. Guess what you wanna go to NASL grandfinal? then pay your own.

As Far as im concerned Prime.We dont have sponsor (after sabasaba chicken contract is finished while ago) ZeNEX, and fOu didnt have one. fOu emerging with FXO is reality of Korean Starcraft ll pro gaming team right now. They dont have money, so they win tournament share money and somehow keep going with practicing rooms, food, and etc.

Most of Gamers dont even make much money in team, so how are you going to pay travel expenses.

Of course, I m not here to defend the actions of SC2Con, they made one grave mistake - not waiting 60 days until NASL putting amount of money to winner, but think about it. How are you going to afford money to come to States when you are not making any?

One of you gave example of oGs and SlayerS, guess what they have sponsors. oGsMC makes hella of money, but who do you think makes lot of money other than MC? Can anyone become oGsMC? answer is No. Unlike team like SlayerS who have sponsorship of Razer and Intel OR oGs MC which player that makes ton of money, most players are not in such situation.

I can say, that to some extent foreign team is better than Korean team, because they have better sponsorship (which team do you think is better Prime or Fnatic, obviously Prime, but fnatic holds decent sponsors and prime holds none. I m not offending Fnatic team, I love that team, but that's reality of Starcraft ll community in Korea right now) And that is why many korean gamers are looking outside of Korea.

I want you guys to know that for almost 95% gamers, it is almost impossible to pay travel expenses. They have to lend money to come to NASL, are you going to risk it then? Probably not. I say this event is the reality of Korean SCll scene that everyone wanted to see.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 19:51 GMT
#418
On August 13 2011 04:47 Fluffdaddy wrote:
How many times does it have to be posted that NASL offered $1000 and upped the prize pool so they could use there own prize pool money to pay their own way?

This is not the same thing as NASL giving a $2000 stipend.

The Koreans brought the viewers, NASL made money off their participation. Now the Koreans are making a power move to show the NASL they aren't shit without them.

And they are right. The NASL finals was an High School AV club production and was saved by an amazing display of skill by Korean players.

The deposit thing might seem like small change, but its also insulting. NASL took $250, haven't returned it yet, and are now wanting $500 dollars.

Lets say a Korean makes it to the offline finals. They get bounced in the first round. They get their $1000 stipend, The $1000 prize pool (which won't get paid for 60 days). Of that, the player gets like $250 - $300 bucks for themselves, which is less than the $500 they have already given NASL. This is after 9 weeks of getting up at the ass crack of dawn every week to play a BO3.

Oh, and the icing on the cake, after arriving at the airport, NASL is their to pick you up. Well, that's kind of them. Except they have their hands out asking for another 80 dollars.

Why would anyone want to participate in this?

As mentioned many times it the thread - the issue is not that the koreans pulled out because they do not agree with the conditions. It is they pulled out after signing a written contract. If they do not like the conditions, then don't participate, no one is forcing them to. However, not honouring a contract is unethical.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 19:54:58
August 12 2011 19:53 GMT
#419
On August 13 2011 04:50 BaekHo wrote:
I dont think you guys should be like "im so dissapointed in Korean Progaming team and players."

No, I mean NO. First, it was decision made by coaches and players. Of course, above the sea, from what we see, result is players and team not playing in NASL anymore, but I want you guys to know that there is a lot more than what we know.

Think about it, you are progamer, and you have opporturnities in playing tournament that will last for months, but if you go to grandfinal, you will be able to make some profit out of it. Would you not play in tournament? Korean progamers and pro team are well aware of foreign fans yet they made this decision?

Why? I dont know dont ask me. They knew that such decision will cause havoc in foreign community but for what sake did they gave up spot? They believe that foreign tournaments like Dreamhack MLG IEM are nothing but shitty foreign tournaments that you can just ignore? I mean No.

You have to understand, majority of Korean gamers are extremely poor and dont make income at all. Of course I cannot talk about all things in here, but dont just be like "Ok these guys gave up NASL, they are dumb XXXX now gtfo from foreign I wont watch you anymore" but act mature, think carefully.

A lot of Korean pro gaming teams are not sponsored, did you heard SlayerSGanzi story in MLG? he came to States with his own travel expenses. Ironically, Korean teams who is known as better skill than foreign team dont have sponsors, so nobody pay them travel expenses. Guess what you wanna go to NASL grandfinal? then pay your own.

As Far as im concerned Prime.We dont have sponsor (after sabasaba chicken contract is finished while ago) ZeNEX, and fOu didnt have one. fOu emerging with FXO is reality of Korean Starcraft ll pro gaming team right now. They dont have money, so they win tournament share money and somehow keep going with practicing rooms, food, and etc.

Most of Gamers dont even make much money in team, so how are you going to pay travel expenses.

Of course, I m not here to defend the actions of SC2Con, they made one grave mistake - not waiting 60 days until NASL putting amount of money to winner, but think about it. How are you going to afford money to come to States when you are not making any?

One of you gave example of oGs and SlayerS, guess what they have sponsors. oGsMC makes hella of money, but who do you think makes lot of money other than MC? Can anyone become oGsMC? answer is No. Unlike team like SlayerS who have sponsorship of Razer and Intel OR oGs MC which player that makes ton of money, most players are not in such situation.

I can say, that to some extent foreign team is better than Korean team, because they have better sponsorship (which team do you think is better Prime or Fnatic, obviously Prime, but fnatic holds decent sponsors and prime holds none. I m not offending Fnatic team, I love that team, but that's reality of Starcraft ll community in Korea right now) And that is why many korean gamers are looking outside of Korea.

I want you guys to know that for almost 95% gamers, it is almost impossible to pay travel expenses. They have to lend money to come to NASL, are you going to risk it then? Probably not. I say this event is the reality of Korean SCll scene that everyone wanted to see.

Then why did they sign an agreement saying that they agreed with the terms and conditions? NASL even accommodated some of their demands. I don't care how poor you are - that doesn't excuse unethical behaviour.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 19:55 GMT
#420
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?

It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.

Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 19:57 GMT
#421
On August 13 2011 04:53 Azzur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:50 BaekHo wrote:
I dont think you guys should be like "im so dissapointed in Korean Progaming team and players."

No, I mean NO. First, it was decision made by coaches and players. Of course, above the sea, from what we see, result is players and team not playing in NASL anymore, but I want you guys to know that there is a lot more than what we know.

Think about it, you are progamer, and you have opporturnities in playing tournament that will last for months, but if you go to grandfinal, you will be able to make some profit out of it. Would you not play in tournament? Korean progamers and pro team are well aware of foreign fans yet they made this decision?

Why? I dont know dont ask me. They knew that such decision will cause havoc in foreign community but for what sake did they gave up spot? They believe that foreign tournaments like Dreamhack MLG IEM are nothing but shitty foreign tournaments that you can just ignore? I mean No.

You have to understand, majority of Korean gamers are extremely poor and dont make income at all. Of course I cannot talk about all things in here, but dont just be like "Ok these guys gave up NASL, they are dumb XXXX now gtfo from foreign I wont watch you anymore" but act mature, think carefully.

A lot of Korean pro gaming teams are not sponsored, did you heard SlayerSGanzi story in MLG? he came to States with his own travel expenses. Ironically, Korean teams who is known as better skill than foreign team dont have sponsors, so nobody pay them travel expenses. Guess what you wanna go to NASL grandfinal? then pay your own.

As Far as im concerned Prime.We dont have sponsor (after sabasaba chicken contract is finished while ago) ZeNEX, and fOu didnt have one. fOu emerging with FXO is reality of Korean Starcraft ll pro gaming team right now. They dont have money, so they win tournament share money and somehow keep going with practicing rooms, food, and etc.

Most of Gamers dont even make much money in team, so how are you going to pay travel expenses.

Of course, I m not here to defend the actions of SC2Con, they made one grave mistake - not waiting 60 days until NASL putting amount of money to winner, but think about it. How are you going to afford money to come to States when you are not making any?

One of you gave example of oGs and SlayerS, guess what they have sponsors. oGsMC makes hella of money, but who do you think makes lot of money other than MC? Can anyone become oGsMC? answer is No. Unlike team like SlayerS who have sponsorship of Razer and Intel OR oGs MC which player that makes ton of money, most players are not in such situation.

I can say, that to some extent foreign team is better than Korean team, because they have better sponsorship (which team do you think is better Prime or Fnatic, obviously Prime, but fnatic holds decent sponsors and prime holds none. I m not offending Fnatic team, I love that team, but that's reality of Starcraft ll community in Korea right now) And that is why many korean gamers are looking outside of Korea.

I want you guys to know that for almost 95% gamers, it is almost impossible to pay travel expenses. They have to lend money to come to NASL, are you going to risk it then? Probably not. I say this event is the reality of Korean SCll scene that everyone wanted to see.

Then why did they sign an agreement saying that they agreed with the terms and conditions? NASL even accommodated some of their demands. I don't care how poor you are - that doesn't excuse unethical behaviour.


How the heck Do I know? Am I coach of Team? No. I m just oridary guy who love Starcraft ll and love watching it. Do you think you are only one whos angry about what happened? there are like thousands more.

What I am saying is just dont look at one side. Do you think all players are aware such contract is happening, reading sorts of things, thinking and carefully consider? Think not. Most will let their coaches and managers decide. Of course SCllCons reflect what players want, but that doesn't necessarily mean that players are doing = SCllcons is doing.
Hammurabio
Profile Joined August 2010
152 Posts
August 12 2011 19:58 GMT
#422
On August 12 2011 16:23 1biza wrote:
Did they seriously charge them $80 for the airport shuttle? It was completely free for my buddy and I, and we stayed at the same hotel.


NASL should set up a volunteer program.

Recently, we had a tennis tournament in town, with professional athletes flying in from all around the world. There were volunteers waiting at baggage claim with a sign with the player's name. This volunteer would assist with baggage claim, and lead the pros to a waiting car. Other volunteers drove the pros from the airport to the hotel. More volunteers were waiting at the hotel to assist with check-in and general orientation. There were many more volunteers at the venue covering lots of other functions.... Real professional athletes expect this level of service.

People volunteer because they love the sport and want to help. They get to meet the players. They get a free ticket to one night of tennis. If eSports is to explode, providing this level of service to the eAthletes should be standard. And it shouldn't cost NASL one extra penny because it is run by volunteers.

I find it sad that NASL charged the players $80 for a shuttle when many fans would have done it for free. Who wouldn't want to drive Boxer, MC, July from the airport to the hotel?
Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
August 12 2011 19:59 GMT
#423
On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?

It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.

Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us.


The point is -- why sign a contract and wait 10 days before ever mentioning that you have a problem, then waiting another 5 days to say that you won't participate. This is the real issue.

Their other concerns are totally valid. They just waited so long to tell us that it really hurt the progress of our league.
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
vnlegend
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1389 Posts
August 12 2011 20:00 GMT
#424
SC2Con didn't do this on their own. They could care less what the players and teams want to pay for.

More likely it's the players themselves who wanted these changes. Both Boxer and Nada have declined to join season 2. For them it's 3 months of waking up at 4am to play matches which aren't even broadcasted live. It's Boxer's experience of going to the US ($1200, $80 NASL charges for airport transportation, $xxx for lodging, $xx for food, $250 upfront deposit) and getting paid $500 stipend and $500 prize money.

Therefore, to not appear selfish, the Korean players point SC2con into the directions for negotiations. Either way, the $1000 travel stipend is not enough to cover the costs of the traveling to the US (probably at least $1500). Players don't want to spend their own prize money on travel. Korean teams and most players are poor.

The other thing is the Koreans will have to pay a bunch of money UPFRONT while they listen to NASL's future promises.

$500 deposit now.
$1500 travel, now.
Potential for players to be poached by foreign teams, now.
Deposit to be returned, later.
Prize money, later.

I don't think Korean teams are rich and liquid enough to do this season after season.
Marines > everything
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
August 12 2011 20:00 GMT
#425
On August 13 2011 04:57 BaekHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:53 Azzur wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:50 BaekHo wrote:
I dont think you guys should be like "im so dissapointed in Korean Progaming team and players."

No, I mean NO. First, it was decision made by coaches and players. Of course, above the sea, from what we see, result is players and team not playing in NASL anymore, but I want you guys to know that there is a lot more than what we know.

Think about it, you are progamer, and you have opporturnities in playing tournament that will last for months, but if you go to grandfinal, you will be able to make some profit out of it. Would you not play in tournament? Korean progamers and pro team are well aware of foreign fans yet they made this decision?

Why? I dont know dont ask me. They knew that such decision will cause havoc in foreign community but for what sake did they gave up spot? They believe that foreign tournaments like Dreamhack MLG IEM are nothing but shitty foreign tournaments that you can just ignore? I mean No.

You have to understand, majority of Korean gamers are extremely poor and dont make income at all. Of course I cannot talk about all things in here, but dont just be like "Ok these guys gave up NASL, they are dumb XXXX now gtfo from foreign I wont watch you anymore" but act mature, think carefully.

A lot of Korean pro gaming teams are not sponsored, did you heard SlayerSGanzi story in MLG? he came to States with his own travel expenses. Ironically, Korean teams who is known as better skill than foreign team dont have sponsors, so nobody pay them travel expenses. Guess what you wanna go to NASL grandfinal? then pay your own.

As Far as im concerned Prime.We dont have sponsor (after sabasaba chicken contract is finished while ago) ZeNEX, and fOu didnt have one. fOu emerging with FXO is reality of Korean Starcraft ll pro gaming team right now. They dont have money, so they win tournament share money and somehow keep going with practicing rooms, food, and etc.

Most of Gamers dont even make much money in team, so how are you going to pay travel expenses.

Of course, I m not here to defend the actions of SC2Con, they made one grave mistake - not waiting 60 days until NASL putting amount of money to winner, but think about it. How are you going to afford money to come to States when you are not making any?

One of you gave example of oGs and SlayerS, guess what they have sponsors. oGsMC makes hella of money, but who do you think makes lot of money other than MC? Can anyone become oGsMC? answer is No. Unlike team like SlayerS who have sponsorship of Razer and Intel OR oGs MC which player that makes ton of money, most players are not in such situation.

I can say, that to some extent foreign team is better than Korean team, because they have better sponsorship (which team do you think is better Prime or Fnatic, obviously Prime, but fnatic holds decent sponsors and prime holds none. I m not offending Fnatic team, I love that team, but that's reality of Starcraft ll community in Korea right now) And that is why many korean gamers are looking outside of Korea.

I want you guys to know that for almost 95% gamers, it is almost impossible to pay travel expenses. They have to lend money to come to NASL, are you going to risk it then? Probably not. I say this event is the reality of Korean SCll scene that everyone wanted to see.

Then why did they sign an agreement saying that they agreed with the terms and conditions? NASL even accommodated some of their demands. I don't care how poor you are - that doesn't excuse unethical behaviour.


How the heck Do I know? Am I coach of Team? No. I m just oridary guy who love Starcraft ll and love watching it. Do you think you are only one whos angry about what happened? there are like thousands more.

What I am saying is just dont look at one side. Do you think all players are aware such contract is happening, reading sorts of things, thinking and carefully consider? Think not. Most will let their coaches and managers decide. Of course SCllCons reflect what players want, but that doesn't necessarily mean that players are doing = SCllcons is doing.

I was asking a rhetorical question.

However, I do see and understand what you're saying. Alot of people are blaming parties that are innocent (e.g. players).

In my opinion, I attach the blame only to SC2Con. I'm hoping that some players will realise what a poor organisation it is and stand up for themselves.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 20:01 GMT
#426
NASL's demand was not enough for Players to play in Tournament. Most of players were still struggling and they thought that waking up 4am once every week and for grand final paying more than 3000+ to go United States will not be affordable, so they decide to not participate on NASL.

Why are you acting so madly? You been talking about why You are angry at Korean gaming teams or players but havent you ever thought about Player's side? I am not saying Every action that SCllCons took can be justify, if they did something wrong, then they will get blame.

However, players were struggling, and they thought its too tough to afford NASL. What do you want more than that? you want to blame them for contracts and stuff? Why would you blame that all on players?
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
August 12 2011 20:01 GMT
#427
On August 13 2011 05:00 vnlegend wrote:
SC2Con didn't do this on their own. They could care less what the players and teams want to pay for.

More likely it's the players themselves who wanted these changes. Both Boxer and Nada have declined to join season 2. For them it's 3 months of waking up at 4am to play matches which aren't even broadcasted live. It's Boxer's experience of going to the US ($1200, $80 NASL charges for airport transportation, $xxx for lodging, $xx for food, $250 upfront deposit) and getting paid $500 stipend and $500 prize money.

Therefore, to not appear selfish, the Korean players point SC2con into the directions for negotiations. Either way, the $1000 travel stipend is not enough to cover the costs of the traveling to the US (probably at least $1500). Players don't want to spend their own prize money on travel. Korean teams and most players are poor.

The other thing is the Koreans will have to pay a bunch of money UPFRONT while they listen to NASL's future promises.

$500 deposit now.
$1500 travel, now.
Potential for players to be poached by foreign teams, now.
Deposit to be returned, later.
Prize money, later.

I don't think Korean teams are rich and liquid enough to do this season after season.

I dont understand how this is even a serious concern if teams use contracts like all legit organizations.
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:03:07
August 12 2011 20:02 GMT
#428
just commenting on the NASL reply. everything they said seems completely reasonable. the opinion of the korean article seems to think korean players deserve to be treated like kings. the nasl offered more than fair levels of help for the korean players and yet the reply from the sc2con writer/worker/advisor (whatever he is) seems to be that anything short of 100% of the work being done by NASL isnt enough.

their point about NASL benefiting from korean players seemed especially odd.


in a time where almost every story out of korea involves their monetary issues they dont seem to value team and sponsor exposure at all.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
August 12 2011 20:05 GMT
#429
On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?

It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.

Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us.


you make it sound like american pro-gamers are just rolling around in piles of cash... it's the same over here. Most "gamers" are kids or very young adults, have zero substantial income outside of gaming, and are attending school in some form. hell, most "gaming teams" in america are not sponsored, but are literally just coalitions of gamers who practice together. "sponsorship", outside of the top couple of teams, consists of some free equipment in exchange for throwing their logo on stuff, maybe a domestic plane ticket.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 20:05 GMT
#430
On August 13 2011 05:00 vnlegend wrote:
SC2Con didn't do this on their own. They could care less what the players and teams want to pay for.

More likely it's the players themselves who wanted these changes. Both Boxer and Nada have declined to join season 2. For them it's 3 months of waking up at 4am to play matches which aren't even broadcasted live. It's Boxer's experience of going to the US ($1200, $80 NASL charges for airport transportation, $xxx for lodging, $xx for food, $250 upfront deposit) and getting paid $500 stipend and $500 prize money.

Therefore, to not appear selfish, the Korean players point SC2con into the directions for negotiations. Either way, the $1000 travel stipend is not enough to cover the costs of the traveling to the US (probably at least $1500). Players don't want to spend their own prize money on travel. Korean teams and most players are poor.

The other thing is the Koreans will have to pay a bunch of money UPFRONT while they listen to NASL's future promises.

$500 deposit now.
$1500 travel, now.
Potential for players to be poached by foreign teams, now.
Deposit to be returned, later.
Prize money, later.

I don't think Korean teams are rich and liquid enough to do this season after season.



This is what im saying. Korean teams really lack sponsorship. They cant afford much, except

few teams. I mean even if you have sponsors, its very hard to go across the sea (thinking of expenses) unless you have partnership with foreign team, like oGs-TL, coL-MVP. That's one reason why I believe SCl and SCll should stick together.
MrSexington
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1768 Posts
August 12 2011 20:05 GMT
#431
It's a shame to not have Boxer back, but it's the following Koreans are still going to participate:

FXO
Rain
HerO
Puma

I think I can live it that. It's not like there aren't other tournaments out there to watch.
NHY
Profile Joined October 2010
1013 Posts
August 12 2011 20:06 GMT
#432
On August 13 2011 05:02 turdburgler wrote:
just commenting on the NASL reply. everything they said seems completely reasonable. the opinion of the korean article seems to think korean players deserve to be treated like kings. the nasl offered more than fair levels of help for the korean players and yet the reply from the sc2con writer/worker/advisor (whatever he is) seems to be that anything short of 100% of the work being done by NASL isnt enough.

their point about NASL benefiting from korean players seemed especially odd.


in a time where almost every story out of korea involves their monetary issues they dont seem to value team and sponsor exposure at all.


No one from Korean teams/sc2con/GOM has spoken on this matter.
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
August 12 2011 20:06 GMT
#433
It's obvious that every korean team are hurting for money, and quite a bit more so due to the pressure they felt (real or imaginary) from foreign teams upon their players. I just wish this is not the way sc2con decides to improve their bottom line though.
Thank God and gunrun.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
August 12 2011 20:06 GMT
#434
On August 13 2011 05:01 BaekHo wrote:
NASL's demand was not enough for Players to play in Tournament. Most of players were still struggling and they thought that waking up 4am once every week and for grand final paying more than 3000+ to go United States will not be affordable, so they decide to not participate on NASL.

Why are you acting so madly? You been talking about why You are angry at Korean gaming teams or players but havent you ever thought about Player's side? I am not saying Every action that SCllCons took can be justify, if they did something wrong, then they will get blame.

However, players were struggling, and they thought its too tough to afford NASL. What do you want more than that? you want to blame them for contracts and stuff? Why would you blame that all on players?



that's fine. but why do you agree to play in the first place then?

people aren't upset because they left. people are upset they left AFTER THEY GAVE THEIR WORD TO PLAY.
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33211 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:09:10
August 12 2011 20:07 GMT
#435
On August 13 2011 05:00 vnlegend wrote:
SC2Con didn't do this on their own. They could care less what the players and teams want to pay for.

More likely it's the players themselves who wanted these changes. Both Boxer and Nada have declined to join season 2. For them it's 3 months of waking up at 4am to play matches which aren't even broadcasted live. It's Boxer's experience of going to the US ($1200, $80 NASL charges for airport transportation, $xxx for lodging, $xx for food, $250 upfront deposit) and getting paid $500 stipend and $500 prize money.

Therefore, to not appear selfish, the Korean players point SC2con into the directions for negotiations. Either way, the $1000 travel stipend is not enough to cover the costs of the traveling to the US (probably at least $1500). Players don't want to spend their own prize money on travel. Korean teams and most players are poor.

The other thing is the Koreans will have to pay a bunch of money UPFRONT while they listen to NASL's future promises.

$500 deposit now.
$1500 travel, now.
Potential for players to be poached by foreign teams, now.
Deposit to be returned, later.
Prize money, later.

I don't think Korean teams are rich and liquid enough to do this season after season.


You realize that SC2con is essentially a united team front -_-

I had such an urge to ban for sheer stupidity, but I fought it off -_-
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
King[Neikos]
Profile Joined September 2010
Costa Rica506 Posts
August 12 2011 20:07 GMT
#436
IMO a bunch of PR bs, they cant seriously expect the tournament to pay for all the expenses of all the koreans attending it, if you want to enter a tournament, its YOUR responsibility to make sure you can afford to attend it, you want to take an all paid trip/expenses to the tournament in addition to the prize money, thats absurd.

And even using the MLG/GSL as a base of comparison when even that is ridiculously one sided in favor of the koreans coming to play directly seeded when anyone that wants to go to korea only gets to play in the secondary tournament.

NASL in fact offered too much in my opinion, and if they dont want to come and play with that on the table then its their own fault.
Vaelone
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Finland4400 Posts
August 12 2011 20:08 GMT
#437
So essentially Koreans do no want the free prize money and NASL doesn't want the thousands of viewers brought in by the Koreans. Sounds like a super good deal for everyone.

On a more serious note to me it seems like it's the Koreans at fault for once rather than NASL. Anyway theres no winners in situations like this and I hope they can come up with somekind of deal thats reasonable for both sides as NASL without the Koreans isn't worth watching *for me*.
Engore
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1916 Posts
August 12 2011 20:09 GMT
#438
Seems like the NASL did all they could to get the Koreans to stay. They are paying back the deposits within the time frame of their contracts. Really seems like the Koreans need to pick up some lawyers or advisors so they can get some help with the contracts.

From all thats come out so far i'll agree with NASL that it was a bit unprofessional to wait so long to voice concerns they had and then withdraw during the season.

Also it says in the NASL response that they talked to players about what time is best or better for them. Sounds like they were trying to make it better for the Korean players but SC2con wanted even more.
EG | Liquid | Dignitas | FXO | SlayerS | TSL | iS | Fan of pretty much all players ^_^ | SeleCT <3 forever! Axslav <3
Voltaire
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1485 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:10:01
August 12 2011 20:09 GMT
#439
I predict this to be the beginning of the end for NASL. It can't compete with GSL, IPL, and MLG.
As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
August 12 2011 20:10 GMT
#440
Btw, Europeans have nearly the same amount to pay for travel expenses. Didnt see the same whining coming from them.

I mean its perfectly ok if they dont want to play in NASL. It has its disadvantages of course playing at these times, with lag etc. But to withdraw after having already signed, and on top of that the shoddy language and false accusations of this reporter /sc2con guy does make it look very bad.
Off-season = best season
Cyrak
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada536 Posts
August 12 2011 20:10 GMT
#441
On August 13 2011 05:00 vnlegend wrote:
SC2Con didn't do this on their own. They could care less what the players and teams want to pay for.

More likely it's the players themselves who wanted these changes. Both Boxer and Nada have declined to join season 2. For them it's 3 months of waking up at 4am to play matches which aren't even broadcasted live. It's Boxer's experience of going to the US ($1200, $80 NASL charges for airport transportation, $xxx for lodging, $xx for food, $250 upfront deposit) and getting paid $500 stipend and $500 prize money.

Therefore, to not appear selfish, the Korean players point SC2con into the directions for negotiations. Either way, the $1000 travel stipend is not enough to cover the costs of the traveling to the US (probably at least $1500). Players don't want to spend their own prize money on travel. Korean teams and most players are poor.

The other thing is the Koreans will have to pay a bunch of money UPFRONT while they listen to NASL's future promises.

$500 deposit now.
$1500 travel, now.
Potential for players to be poached by foreign teams, now.
Deposit to be returned, later.
Prize money, later.

I don't think Korean teams are rich and liquid enough to do this season after season.


This is what I'm getting out of this too. It seems like more trouble than it's worth for them unless they are somehow certain that they can place extremely high in the finals.
Fortune favors the prepared mind.
integrity
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1014 Posts
August 12 2011 20:11 GMT
#442
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 20:12 GMT
#443
On August 13 2011 05:05 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?

It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.

Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us.


you make it sound like american pro-gamers are just rolling around in piles of cash... it's the same over here. Most "gamers" are kids or very young adults, have zero substantial income outside of gaming, and are attending school in some form. hell, most "gaming teams" in america are not sponsored, but are literally just coalitions of gamers who practice together. "sponsorship", outside of the top couple of teams, consists of some free equipment in exchange for throwing their logo on stuff, maybe a domestic plane ticket.


First, ya that's what im saying. What you said is why Koreans not playing in NASL. You said, free quipment and maybe domestic plane ticket. Now, look at it. Even when you have sponsorship, you can hardly can domesstic plane ticket, and now if you want to come from Korea to States or even EU, you have to pay about twice or third times more flight ticket, and extra for food, hotel, etc.

Now, even if you have sponsorship, you will have to struggle lot to make that much of money to come to States, but most of Korean pro gaming team dont even have spoonsorship, so guess what, you wanna go to States? then make your own money and go. Teams will not support you with amount of money.

You also said that American pro gamers are not rolling around in pile of cash, and I m aware (I myself is pro gamer afterall) of that. In Korea, however, if you are in Pro gaming team, unlike foreign team, you have your own schedule. Do we have our own? No we leave all different places, we study, or do part time job and play games then make money with work AND tournaments.

Have you ever thought about why korean skill is superior? Because while you try to make money and afford your life, Korean gamer, 5 people sleep in same room, you practice 12 hours a day, none stop, not even rest during weekend, so you will have time to work? Guess not. no. they devote everything there.

You wanna do part time job? Ok then good bye for you we dont want you in team.Simple as that.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
August 12 2011 20:16 GMT
#444
On August 13 2011 05:12 BaekHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:05 BluePanther wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?

It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.

Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us.


you make it sound like american pro-gamers are just rolling around in piles of cash... it's the same over here. Most "gamers" are kids or very young adults, have zero substantial income outside of gaming, and are attending school in some form. hell, most "gaming teams" in america are not sponsored, but are literally just coalitions of gamers who practice together. "sponsorship", outside of the top couple of teams, consists of some free equipment in exchange for throwing their logo on stuff, maybe a domestic plane ticket.


First, ya that's what im saying. What you said is why Koreans not playing in NASL. You said, free quipment and maybe domestic plane ticket. Now, look at it. Even when you have sponsorship, you can hardly can domesstic plane ticket, and now if you want to come from Korea to States or even EU, you have to pay about twice or third times more flight ticket, and extra for food, hotel, etc.

Now, even if you have sponsorship, you will have to struggle lot to make that much of money to come to States, but most of Korean pro gaming team dont even have spoonsorship, so guess what, you wanna go to States? then make your own money and go. Teams will not support you with amount of money.

You also said that American pro gamers are not rolling around in pile of cash, and I m aware (I myself is pro gamer afterall) of that. In Korea, however, if you are in Pro gaming team, unlike foreign team, you have your own schedule. Do we have our own? No we leave all different places, we study, or do part time job and play games then make money with work AND tournaments.

Have you ever thought about why korean skill is superior? Because while you try to make money and afford your life, Korean gamer, 5 people sleep in same room, you practice 12 hours a day, none stop, not even rest during weekend, so you will have time to work? Guess not. no. they devote everything there.

You wanna do part time job? Ok then good bye for you we dont want you in team.Simple as that.



That's fine. And if you can't afford to play in NASL, I completely understand that.


But then don't sign up and screw over the tournament. Be polite, tell them you can't afford it, and move on. Don't sign a contract. Sure, the fans might be sad about that, but they wouldn't be mad.
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 20:17 GMT
#445
On August 13 2011 04:59 Xeris wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?

It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.

Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us.


The point is -- why sign a contract and wait 10 days before ever mentioning that you have a problem, then waiting another 5 days to say that you won't participate. This is the real issue.

Their other concerns are totally valid. They just waited so long to tell us that it really hurt the progress of our league.


I dont know about contract, I'm pretty sure there is A LOT more than what we see right now. What we are seeing is very limited. I cant judge which side did wrong, or which side is lying in some facts.

I believe there is some misunderstanding involve as well, but from what I see right now, SCllCon definitely made mistake with contract, they shouldnt really do that, im not like representation of Korean SCllConn I dont know no story behind the scene, but from what we see

SCllCon did made mistake, but we shouldnt judge too quickly
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 20:19 GMT
#446
On August 13 2011 05:16 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:12 BaekHo wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:05 BluePanther wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:55 BaekHo wrote:
Remember seeing security Budget? Of course this 250$ is not a lot to most of people. Why would you NOT wanna pay money that you will GET it Back, do you think Koreans are that retard who doesnt know simple thing?

It is simple, because they cant afford it. 250$ is not a lot for people like BoxeR Nada MC, but others? No that's like hella a lot. Dont you get it? Its a lot for them and burden, that's why they wish not to pay. Im not bashing on NASL's procedure, im talking about enviornment for Korean Gamers.

Of course, why NASL should care? I'm not being Sarcastic or anything, but that's the reality. Korean Gamers can hardly pay 250$, and now 500$? I dont think NASL's policy is wrong (in fact I think 500 is too much but anyway) but they are struggling, that's what this statement about security budget tell us.


you make it sound like american pro-gamers are just rolling around in piles of cash... it's the same over here. Most "gamers" are kids or very young adults, have zero substantial income outside of gaming, and are attending school in some form. hell, most "gaming teams" in america are not sponsored, but are literally just coalitions of gamers who practice together. "sponsorship", outside of the top couple of teams, consists of some free equipment in exchange for throwing their logo on stuff, maybe a domestic plane ticket.


First, ya that's what im saying. What you said is why Koreans not playing in NASL. You said, free quipment and maybe domestic plane ticket. Now, look at it. Even when you have sponsorship, you can hardly can domesstic plane ticket, and now if you want to come from Korea to States or even EU, you have to pay about twice or third times more flight ticket, and extra for food, hotel, etc.

Now, even if you have sponsorship, you will have to struggle lot to make that much of money to come to States, but most of Korean pro gaming team dont even have spoonsorship, so guess what, you wanna go to States? then make your own money and go. Teams will not support you with amount of money.

You also said that American pro gamers are not rolling around in pile of cash, and I m aware (I myself is pro gamer afterall) of that. In Korea, however, if you are in Pro gaming team, unlike foreign team, you have your own schedule. Do we have our own? No we leave all different places, we study, or do part time job and play games then make money with work AND tournaments.

Have you ever thought about why korean skill is superior? Because while you try to make money and afford your life, Korean gamer, 5 people sleep in same room, you practice 12 hours a day, none stop, not even rest during weekend, so you will have time to work? Guess not. no. they devote everything there.

You wanna do part time job? Ok then good bye for you we dont want you in team.Simple as that.



That's fine. And if you can't afford to play in NASL, I completely understand that.


But then don't sign up and screw over the tournament. Be polite, tell them you can't afford it, and move on. Don't sign a contract. Sure, the fans might be sad about that, but they wouldn't be mad.


You dont even know whole story behind the scene dont just try to judge everything from what you are seeing now, but for contract matter, I believe you can definitely bash them for it. SCll Conn already made mistake with EG, and Startale - TSL issue was big one too. They need to be more careful, unless they hope to be like Kespa
MMXMoto-X17
Profile Joined July 2011
Barbados23 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:25:37
August 12 2011 20:21 GMT
#447
Are we suppose to be sad? It's the korean's loss. This article makes me rage. NASL did nothing wrong, infact, they did a good job not caving in too much, although I do think they gave the koreans a little bit more respect than they deserve.

Koreans need to respect foreign leagues and not pretend they are UBER DUBER royalty ETC.

Koreans with too much power can be such kids sometimes...
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 20:22 GMT
#448
SCllCon is definitely representing the Players, but it is important to recognize that they are not actually representing individual. Thus, making bias that there can be huge miscommunication within the group. Vast majority might agree to do so in certain subject while otheres disagree, they are new, making too many mistakes, which cannot be justify.

I believe they should recognize it and be very careful with it (Especially contract.)
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
August 12 2011 20:23 GMT
#449
Koreans pulling out after signing contracts at the last possible minute -- this just sounds like incompetent management to me. Jokers.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:27:26
August 12 2011 20:25 GMT
#450
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.
thee telescopes
Profile Joined August 2010
321 Posts
August 12 2011 20:28 GMT
#451
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.
It isn't like the NASL could sue the Korean teams for all that money they don't have, either. Just a lose/lose situation all round.
Cyrak
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada536 Posts
August 12 2011 20:30 GMT
#452
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.


Agreed. They need to work on a fix for this that works for both parties. I'm already pre-paid for NASL season 2 but if I wasn't then I wouldn't be buying it. I also won't be buying season 3 if things stay the same.

I'm not doing this out of spite or ideology, simply the fact that the joy I get out of watching SC2 is observing games at the highest possible level. That's something that Korean players have a monopoly on and as long as they maintain that monopoly then they will be able to blackmail leagues into making concessions. That's just life.
Fortune favors the prepared mind.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
August 12 2011 20:33 GMT
#453
On August 13 2011 05:19 BaekHo wrote:

You dont even know whole story behind the scene dont just try to judge everything from what you are seeing now, but for contract matter, I believe you can definitely bash them for it. SCll Conn already made mistake with EG, and Startale - TSL issue was big one too. They need to be more careful, unless they hope to be like Kespa


I think you're misunderstanding me. The only thing I'm bashing them for IS the contract issue.
Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
August 12 2011 20:34 GMT
#454
On August 13 2011 05:30 Cyrak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.


Agreed. They need to work on a fix for this that works for both parties. I'm already pre-paid for NASL season 2 but if I wasn't then I wouldn't be buying it. I also won't be buying season 3 if things stay the same.

I'm not doing this out of spite or ideology, simply the fact that the joy I get out of watching SC2 is observing games at the highest possible level. That's something that Korean players have a monopoly on and as long as they maintain that monopoly then they will be able to blackmail leagues into making concessions. That's just life.


Only if you allow it
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 20:35 GMT
#455
On August 13 2011 05:33 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:19 BaekHo wrote:

You dont even know whole story behind the scene dont just try to judge everything from what you are seeing now, but for contract matter, I believe you can definitely bash them for it. SCll Conn already made mistake with EG, and Startale - TSL issue was big one too. They need to be more careful, unless they hope to be like Kespa


I think you're misunderstanding me. The only thing I'm bashing them for IS the contract issue.


I guess I was then ;D my fault. Regardlesss, many started to say they are hating Korean Team and Gamers from now on, so I think it was worth to speak out. As for contract matter, they really have to get bash for that if what NASL is saying is true. (fact that they signed it then decide to not do it)
integrity
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1014 Posts
August 12 2011 20:40 GMT
#456
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.


o.k.

hi i am a company. i just go screwed by a bunch of people and just because the market is new im just gonna bend over and take it.

not saying they should sue them for all that sc2con is worth but make it aware to them that what they did is morally wrong.

and this is my opinion. and as opinions go there is nothing wrong we me expressing mine
Slider954
Profile Joined March 2011
United States342 Posts
August 12 2011 20:43 GMT
#457
On August 13 2011 05:40 integrity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.


o.k.

hi i am a company. i just go screwed by a bunch of people and just because the market is new im just gonna bend over and take it.

not saying they should sue them for all that sc2con is worth but make it aware to them that what they did is morally wrong.

and this is my opinion. and as opinions go there is nothing wrong we me expressing mine


I get what you are saying, it just wouldn't be worth it in the long run. They can't sue them to make them play and suing them for money would be pointless since its obvious that Koreans teams are barely making any, if not flat out losing money. The one thing the contracts show is that NASL aren't in the wrong here.
Best in the world at what I do
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:46:11
August 12 2011 20:44 GMT
#458
On August 13 2011 05:40 integrity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.


o.k.

hi i am a company. i just go screwed by a bunch of people and just because the market is new im just gonna bend over and take it.

not saying they should sue them for all that sc2con is worth but make it aware to them that what they did is morally wrong.

and this is my opinion. and as opinions go there is nothing wrong we me expressing mine


just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good one. i work in law and even i think it'd be stupid to sue them. it just serves no practical purpose and will only hurt relations.
billyX333
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1360 Posts
August 12 2011 20:48 GMT
#459
On August 13 2011 05:35 BaekHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:33 BluePanther wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:19 BaekHo wrote:

You dont even know whole story behind the scene dont just try to judge everything from what you are seeing now, but for contract matter, I believe you can definitely bash them for it. SCll Conn already made mistake with EG, and Startale - TSL issue was big one too. They need to be more careful, unless they hope to be like Kespa


I think you're misunderstanding me. The only thing I'm bashing them for IS the contract issue.


I guess I was then ;D my fault. Regardlesss, many started to say they are hating Korean Team and Gamers from now on, so I think it was worth to speak out. As for contract matter, they really have to get bash for that if what NASL is saying is true. (fact that they signed it then decide to not do it)

the people who say that are the loudest and most obnoxious. those posters tend to create drama out of thin air and always create the illusion that everybody is angry when most people are indifferent

i think most of us can agree that it is just unfortunate for both sides.
Cyrak
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada536 Posts
August 12 2011 20:50 GMT
#460
On August 13 2011 05:34 Xeris wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:30 Cyrak wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.


Agreed. They need to work on a fix for this that works for both parties. I'm already pre-paid for NASL season 2 but if I wasn't then I wouldn't be buying it. I also won't be buying season 3 if things stay the same.

I'm not doing this out of spite or ideology, simply the fact that the joy I get out of watching SC2 is observing games at the highest possible level. That's something that Korean players have a monopoly on and as long as they maintain that monopoly then they will be able to blackmail leagues into making concessions. That's just life.


Only if you allow it


What do you mean? These hegemonic institutions (KESPA, SCIICon) have been part of Starcraft gaming in Korea for long enough that they seem irrevocably entrenched.

I don't think it's a question of allowing it or not. Barring the scenario where these organizations cease to exist or have no sway they're going to have to be dealt with and they're probably going to act the way that SC2Con is right now. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, but it just seems like the reality that tournament organizers have to live in.
Fortune favors the prepared mind.
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
August 12 2011 20:51 GMT
#461
Some people are worried about the NASL, but this news actually makes me worry about the sustainability of some of these Korean teams.

Fairly soon Puma will be chilling in his own apartment, with a $40000 novelty cheque on the wall. He'll be jetsetting to foreign tournaments 3 or 4 times a year. I think other Korean players are going to take a long hard look at Korean versus American team management and wonder if they're working with the right people.
Hikari
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
1914 Posts
August 12 2011 20:53 GMT
#462
- I believe some of the offers were lost in translation/might be lost due to miscommunication. Things such as NASL being able to book cheap tickets seem to have been overlooked.
- Instead of a rather expensive security deposit, how about some sort of an alternate guarantor system: you can either pay for $250 yourself, or have your team become your guarantor - that if you fail to appear w/o informing NASL the player/guarantor will be fined. In order to protect their names I have faith in the korean teams paying up for their players.
($250 is a LOT of money)
- Deposit returned 60 days after the tournament ended seem a little long. When it comes to money (deposit and prize) I think it is best to get it over with ASAP. Will 2 weeks after end of tournament be doable?
- MUST games be casted live? tbh: people can no longer tell if a game is casted live or from replays. NASL games go through a production stage so they are not really "live" anyway. Neither starting games @ 2am (and potentially sleeping @ 5am), or waking up @ 4am seem too healthy. Something played around 8:30KST = 19:30 EST = 2:30 CEST (i think) might be a little more reasonable.



- I love liquid even more for paying oGs' deposit. With bonus credit to Huk for paying Boxer's deposit. The team has done everything they can to promote esports.
Hall0wed
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States8486 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:53:55
August 12 2011 20:53 GMT
#463
Heh as I expected, the whole Puma ordeal definitely helped caused this all to happen to an extent. While not the main problem it definitely plays a role in all of this.
♦ My Life for BESTie ♦ 류세라 = 배 ♦
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
August 12 2011 20:53 GMT
#464
On August 13 2011 05:51 Defacer wrote:
Some people are worried about the NASL, but this news actually makes me worry about the sustainability of some of these Korean teams.

Fairly soon Puma will be chilling in his own apartment, with a $40000 novelty cheque on the wall. He'll be jetsetting to foreign tournaments 3 or 4 times a year. I think other Korean players are going to take a long hard look at Korean versus American team management and wonder if they're working with the right people.


Bingo.

Korean teams bitch about money a lot more than foreign teams, but they put their gamers up, feed them, and more. Maybe they need to find a more efficient way to handle money a la western gaming clans? i mean, if the money isn't there, forcing people to pay you isn't going to solve the underlying problem...
TheSilverfox
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden1928 Posts
August 12 2011 20:54 GMT
#465
I still don't understand how MC is in the list of players that are not participating in the NASL. It just seems so weird.

The reason why the SK-oGs deal was made with NaDa and MC was because SK Gaming saw an opportunity to have MC & NaDa to play in international tournaments. This means that they also provide with flights, hotels and everything regarding this.

It would really be in SK Gamings interest to pay for all of this and have MC play in this tournament. Because what's the purpose with the partnership for SK if "their" players like MC don't participate in these international tournaments?
Also known as Joinsimon on Twitter/Reddit
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
August 12 2011 20:56 GMT
#466
On August 13 2011 05:40 integrity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.


o.k.

hi i am a company. i just go screwed by a bunch of people and just because the market is new im just gonna bend over and take it.

not saying they should sue them for all that sc2con is worth but make it aware to them that what they did is morally wrong.

and this is my opinion. and as opinions go there is nothing wrong we me expressing mine


The problem with the "it's my opinion" defense is that even though everyone is entitled to their opinion, some are just utterly terrible ideas. The idea championed by your opinion would accomplish nothing. It would "make it aware to them that what they did is morally wrong"? Really? Do you really think that's what suing them would do? NASL would pursue legal action, and the Korean SC2 teams would go, "Gee, this legal action really makes us realize the error in our ways. I guess we should shape up!"

If you think that'll happen then you're simply delusional. What would really happen would be that it would utterly destroy Western-Korean SC2 relations. The idea espoused by your opinion would hurt the SC2 scene way more than help it.
Grr Arr Rawr
Profile Joined April 2011
United States108 Posts
August 12 2011 21:05 GMT
#467
On August 13 2011 05:54 TheSilverfox wrote:
I still don't understand how MC is in the list of players that are not participating in the NASL. It just seems so weird.

The reason why the SK-oGs deal was made with NaDa and MC was because SK Gaming saw an opportunity to have MC & NaDa to play in international tournaments. This means that they also provide with flights, hotels and everything regarding this.

It would really be in SK Gamings interest to pay for all of this and have MC play in this tournament. Because what's the purpose with the partnership for SK if "their" players like MC don't participate in these international tournaments?


Yeah, I'm really curious about how that's going to pan out- this boycott by the SC2Con seems to directly conflict with several existing partnerships.
You can't rhyme against the dark side of the Force, why even bother? So many dudes been with your mom, who even KNOWS if I'm your father!
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 21:11:08
August 12 2011 21:06 GMT
#468
i do believe all of these options, rules, and terms can be confusing especially with a language barrier.
it feels like a reaction upon counter-reaction deal when considering the travel stipend, deposit, and rearranged prizepool---which might not be all bad, but i can see it to be confusing or partly unnecessary

although there would still be a lot to consider for NASL, from a glance, i think the players and teams would just feel much easier if NASL were to just guarantee the covered travel to and from without all the extra bells and whistles
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
Hikari
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
1914 Posts
August 12 2011 21:11 GMT
#469
@financial situation of Korean teams.
It is quite obvious that the west have money but lacks skill.
Korea has skill but lacks money.
The west must also be willing to spend that money. Without good players, the scene will just be boring and die out. Koreans are good not just because they are born that way, they spend a lot of effort and sacrifices much to get to their skill level. (Compared to foreign players who are relatively casual and have extra curricular activities such as coaching).

The west and Korean teams must find a way to work together.

Doesn't Blizzard pay for travel expenses and accommodations for their invitationals? How about the upcoming blizzcon GSL finals? Who is going to pay for the tickets? I highly doubt it would be the players.

Progamers are not just competitors in a tournament, they are also entertainers. Often time when you hire an artist of sort (ie: DJ to a party) you pay them to be there, and not tell them to pay themselves because "you get a chance to display your skills to the public and gain popularity, boosting CD sales".
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
August 12 2011 21:14 GMT
#470
On August 13 2011 06:11 Hikari wrote:
@financial situation of Korean teams.
It is quite obvious that the west have money but lacks skill.
Korea has skill but lacks money.
The west must also be willing to spend that money. Without good players, the scene will just be boring and die out. Koreans are good not just because they are born that way, they spend a lot of effort and sacrifices much to get to their skill level. (Compared to foreign players who are relatively casual and have extra curricular activities such as coaching).

The west and Korean teams must find a way to work together.

Doesn't Blizzard pay for travel expenses and accommodations for their invitationals? How about the upcoming blizzcon GSL finals? Who is going to pay for the tickets? I highly doubt it would be the players.

Progamers are not just competitors in a tournament, they are also entertainers. Often time when you hire an artist of sort (ie: DJ to a party) you pay them to be there, and not tell them to pay themselves because "you get a chance to display your skills to the public and gain popularity, boosting CD sales".


very good ^ ^
i agree completely,
everyone will have to work together as much as possible ._.
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
Domination
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1177 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 21:16:07
August 12 2011 21:15 GMT
#471
On August 13 2011 05:02 turdburgler wrote:
in a time where almost every story out of korea involves their monetary issues they dont seem to value team and sponsor exposure at all.

That's what blows my mind about this. At worst, you make no money (which you weren't doing anyways) but get a little exposure. At best, you win the tournament, you and your team look like ballers which may help you get sponsors, and you get paid. The only real downside I can think of is if you were in GSL because you would lose a week of training time. I don't know, it just seems like if you are struggling with finances you should take every opportunity to get your name out there but I guess I am wrong.
TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
August 12 2011 21:15 GMT
#472
This is such a joke. It sounds like NASL did nothing wrong and this guys is venting with false/incomplete information. I support you NASL. I do not think that you would be dumb enough to start screwing over the Korean players in your first start-up season. It does not add up.
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
BaekHo
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
August 12 2011 21:15 GMT
#473
On August 13 2011 06:14 nanaoei wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 06:11 Hikari wrote:
@financial situation of Korean teams.
It is quite obvious that the west have money but lacks skill.
Korea has skill but lacks money.
The west must also be willing to spend that money. Without good players, the scene will just be boring and die out. Koreans are good not just because they are born that way, they spend a lot of effort and sacrifices much to get to their skill level. (Compared to foreign players who are relatively casual and have extra curricular activities such as coaching).

The west and Korean teams must find a way to work together.

Doesn't Blizzard pay for travel expenses and accommodations for their invitationals? How about the upcoming blizzcon GSL finals? Who is going to pay for the tickets? I highly doubt it would be the players.

Progamers are not just competitors in a tournament, they are also entertainers. Often time when you hire an artist of sort (ie: DJ to a party) you pay them to be there, and not tell them to pay themselves because "you get a chance to display your skills to the public and gain popularity, boosting CD sales".


very good ^ ^
i agree completely,
everyone will have to work together as much as possible ._.


I support this
forgottendreams
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1771 Posts
August 12 2011 21:18 GMT
#474
On August 13 2011 05:50 Cyrak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:34 Xeris wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:30 Cyrak wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.


Agreed. They need to work on a fix for this that works for both parties. I'm already pre-paid for NASL season 2 but if I wasn't then I wouldn't be buying it. I also won't be buying season 3 if things stay the same.

I'm not doing this out of spite or ideology, simply the fact that the joy I get out of watching SC2 is observing games at the highest possible level. That's something that Korean players have a monopoly on and as long as they maintain that monopoly then they will be able to blackmail leagues into making concessions. That's just life.


Only if you allow it


What do you mean? These hegemonic institutions (KESPA, SCIICon) have been part of Starcraft gaming in Korea for long enough that they seem irrevocably entrenched.

I don't think it's a question of allowing it or not. Barring the scenario where these organizations cease to exist or have no sway they're going to have to be dealt with and they're probably going to act the way that SC2Con is right now. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, but it just seems like the reality that tournament organizers have to live in.


I think the point is, yeah you can just sit back and say "Oh well, looks like GSL-MLG wins again and another league falls" or you can continue to purchase passes from independant events like HomeStoryCup, DreamHack and NASL and continue to lure independant Koreans like Puma and Rain to these tournaments which will in turn continue to tempt other Korean players to break out of SC2Con sponsored teams as they keep winning.
Grr Arr Rawr
Profile Joined April 2011
United States108 Posts
August 12 2011 21:20 GMT
#475
On August 13 2011 06:11 Hikari wrote:
Progamers are not just competitors in a tournament, they are also entertainers. Often time when you hire an artist of sort (ie: DJ to a party) you pay them to be there, and not tell them to pay themselves because "you get a chance to display your skills to the public and gain popularity, boosting CD sales".


This is... I honestly don't even know how to respond to this. It's absurd. You have actually made the rest of us dumber people for having read it.

In regards to Blizzard tournaments, as the owners of the game, it's all advertising to them. All the money they put in most likely comes out of their advertising budget, and is not expected to return a direct profit.
You can't rhyme against the dark side of the Force, why even bother? So many dudes been with your mom, who even KNOWS if I'm your father!
Devolved
Profile Joined April 2008
United States2753 Posts
August 12 2011 21:23 GMT
#476
On August 13 2011 05:34 Xeris wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:30 Cyrak wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.


Agreed. They need to work on a fix for this that works for both parties. I'm already pre-paid for NASL season 2 but if I wasn't then I wouldn't be buying it. I also won't be buying season 3 if things stay the same.

I'm not doing this out of spite or ideology, simply the fact that the joy I get out of watching SC2 is observing games at the highest possible level. That's something that Korean players have a monopoly on and as long as they maintain that monopoly then they will be able to blackmail leagues into making concessions. That's just life.


Only if you allow it

Well it doesn't seem like you have many options to disallow it. The only recourse I see is trying to sue them for the deposit money since they signed the contract. You may also try to add monetary damages caused by them pulling out at the last hour and delaying the league, but any value you assign to this would be hard to prove. Considering you would have to go through international channels it hardly seems worth the time and money it would cost to do this.

I'm curious as to how you plan to not allow it.
$♥$
Silver777
Profile Joined March 2010
United States347 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 21:25:54
August 12 2011 21:24 GMT
#477
On August 13 2011 06:15 BaekHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 06:14 nanaoei wrote:
On August 13 2011 06:11 Hikari wrote:
@financial situation of Korean teams.
It is quite obvious that the west have money but lacks skill.
Korea has skill but lacks money.
The west must also be willing to spend that money. Without good players, the scene will just be boring and die out. Koreans are good not just because they are born that way, they spend a lot of effort and sacrifices much to get to their skill level. (Compared to foreign players who are relatively casual and have extra curricular activities such as coaching).

The west and Korean teams must find a way to work together.

Doesn't Blizzard pay for travel expenses and accommodations for their invitationals? How about the upcoming blizzcon GSL finals? Who is going to pay for the tickets? I highly doubt it would be the players.

Progamers are not just competitors in a tournament, they are also entertainers. Often time when you hire an artist of sort (ie: DJ to a party) you pay them to be there, and not tell them to pay themselves because "you get a chance to display your skills to the public and gain popularity, boosting CD sales".


very good ^ ^
i agree completely,
everyone will have to work together as much as possible ._.


I support this


I think you assume these companies have no budget at all and just spend money, when all the money is already set and spent months in advance. What you are suggesting is paying players $2000 ($500 more then Code A..........) for like 9 show matches, but that doesn't sound as fun at all and that sounds like a huge monetary loss for a business. The scene is FAR from developed to this extent and if money was this easy to come by Korean teams wouldn't be complaining about monetary issues.
Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
August 12 2011 21:25 GMT
#478
Well, we continue the league! We'll make an announcement within the next few days about our new list of players, etc! =D
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 21:37:53
August 12 2011 21:34 GMT
#479
On August 13 2011 06:18 forgottendreams wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 05:50 Cyrak wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:34 Xeris wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:30 Cyrak wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 13 2011 05:11 integrity wrote:
On August 13 2011 02:24 NASL.tv wrote:
[image loading]

Paid back wemadefox security deposits... if it comes down to it, we can provide recipts for everything, but I can assure you we are 100% telling the truth when we stated that: a) we have begun refunding people's deposits, etc. b) we are still within the 60 day time frame of paying everything back, and we WILL adhere to this




nasl.tv i really want you guys to take some legal action to at least let sc2con know that they cant go around screwing over foreign tournaments (after they signed contracts to play in them) at the last minute because they wont cover there last minute demands.


Get your idiotic sue-happy mentality out of here. Legal action would not help in any way. At best, it'll severely damage Korean-Western relations that we've been trying to foster for some time now. I can't believe some people actually think legal action is a good idea.


Agreed. They need to work on a fix for this that works for both parties. I'm already pre-paid for NASL season 2 but if I wasn't then I wouldn't be buying it. I also won't be buying season 3 if things stay the same.

I'm not doing this out of spite or ideology, simply the fact that the joy I get out of watching SC2 is observing games at the highest possible level. That's something that Korean players have a monopoly on and as long as they maintain that monopoly then they will be able to blackmail leagues into making concessions. That's just life.


Only if you allow it


What do you mean? These hegemonic institutions (KESPA, SCIICon) have been part of Starcraft gaming in Korea for long enough that they seem irrevocably entrenched.

I don't think it's a question of allowing it or not. Barring the scenario where these organizations cease to exist or have no sway they're going to have to be dealt with and they're probably going to act the way that SC2Con is right now. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, but it just seems like the reality that tournament organizers have to live in.


I think the point is, yeah you can just sit back and say "Oh well, looks like GSL-MLG wins again and another league falls" or you can continue to purchase passes from independant events like HomeStoryCup, DreamHack and NASL and continue to lure independant Koreans like Puma and Rain to these tournaments which will in turn continue to tempt other Korean players to break out of SC2Con sponsored teams as they keep winning.


Or you could think NASL is handling a lot of things stupidly and not purchase passes until they improve all their crap. Or just let them fold if they don't. There's no real reason to purchase a pass if you aren't impressed by the tournament.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Hikari
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
1914 Posts
August 12 2011 21:38 GMT
#480
On August 13 2011 06:20 Grr Arr Rawr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 06:11 Hikari wrote:
Progamers are not just competitors in a tournament, they are also entertainers. Often time when you hire an artist of sort (ie: DJ to a party) you pay them to be there, and not tell them to pay themselves because "you get a chance to display your skills to the public and gain popularity, boosting CD sales".


This is... I honestly don't even know how to respond to this. It's absurd. You have actually made the rest of us dumber people for having read it.

In regards to Blizzard tournaments, as the owners of the game, it's all advertising to them. All the money they put in most likely comes out of their advertising budget, and is not expected to return a direct profit.



Maybe that is why blizzcon/the current invitations are free to watch over amazing directTV streams, while other leagues have a membership fee+commercials?

On August 13 2011 06:24 Silver777 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 06:15 BaekHo wrote:
On August 13 2011 06:14 nanaoei wrote:
On August 13 2011 06:11 Hikari wrote:
@financial situation of Korean teams.
It is quite obvious that the west have money but lacks skill.
Korea has skill but lacks money.
The west must also be willing to spend that money. Without good players, the scene will just be boring and die out. Koreans are good not just because they are born that way, they spend a lot of effort and sacrifices much to get to their skill level. (Compared to foreign players who are relatively casual and have extra curricular activities such as coaching).

The west and Korean teams must find a way to work together.

Doesn't Blizzard pay for travel expenses and accommodations for their invitationals? How about the upcoming blizzcon GSL finals? Who is going to pay for the tickets? I highly doubt it would be the players.

Progamers are not just competitors in a tournament, they are also entertainers. Often time when you hire an artist of sort (ie: DJ to a party) you pay them to be there, and not tell them to pay themselves because "you get a chance to display your skills to the public and gain popularity, boosting CD sales".


very good ^ ^
i agree completely,
everyone will have to work together as much as possible ._.


I support this


I think you assume these companies have no budget at all and just spend money, when all the money is already set and spent months in advance. What you are suggesting is paying players $2000 ($500 more then Code A..........) for like 9 show matches, but that doesn't sound as fun at all and that sounds like a huge monetary loss for a business. The scene is FAR from developed to this extent and if money was this easy to come by Korean teams wouldn't be complaining about monetary issues.


The money is there. MLG has a pretty small prize pool for each pro circuit stop (was it $5k first prize compared to the $40k?) yet it still attracted high caliber progamers. The check might be small, but both the fans and the progamers LOVE it. Anyone who have been to an MLG event can tell you that they did not regret attending.

Because this is still a developing market, is it even more important that people are willing to invest in it + promote its growth, instead of doing their best to milk it dry before it dies.



@Xeris: so is there no more negotiation room/too late to get the Koreans back to the table?
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
August 12 2011 21:38 GMT
#481
On August 13 2011 06:25 Xeris wrote:
Well, we continue the league! We'll make an announcement within the next few days about our new list of players, etc! =D

Good luck Xeris! We know how hard you (and the rest of the staff) work to make the NASL run. Its too bad this happened, but hopefully some players with outside deals (like MC with SK) will still be able to participate along with Rain and Puma and the great foreigners in the NASL.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
ShinyGerbil
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada519 Posts
August 12 2011 21:55 GMT
#482
IMO it doesn't seem fair for all the players qualifying for NASL finals to get an equal travel stipend, as people already living in the states will probably profit from this while koreans will be down hundreds of dollars. I think something like a $500 stiped for north americans and $1500 for "international" players is much more reasonable.

Also if NASL is so stretched for cash, why not make the finals top 8 and double elim, like the blizzard NA invitational going on right now? It'll be the same amount of games, likely the same hype and quality of gameplay (if not better because it's all top 8 players) and half the travel costs.
[s]savior[/s] jaedong fighting! // member of LighT eSports
Hikari
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
1914 Posts
August 12 2011 22:04 GMT
#483
On August 13 2011 06:55 ShinyGerbil wrote:
IMO it doesn't seem fair for all the players qualifying for NASL finals to get an equal travel stipend, as people already living in the states will probably profit from this while koreans will be down hundreds of dollars. I think something like a $500 stiped for north americans and $1500 for "international" players is much more reasonable.

Also if NASL is so stretched for cash, why not make the finals top 8 and double elim, like the blizzard NA invitational going on right now? It'll be the same amount of games, likely the same hype and quality of gameplay (if not better because it's all top 8 players) and half the travel costs.


To avoid abuse:
You get up to $x travel stipend if you make your own accommodations.
You get $x+y or even full coverage if you allow NASL to make them for you so money are not wasted.

I recall there was a LOT of downtime during the NASL broadcast. Supposedly a lot was happening @ the venue, but given the bo3 single elimination system there are not all that many games. From a stream viewer perspective one can argue the entire event can be done in 2 days instead of 3.
Snipershot
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom59 Posts
August 12 2011 22:13 GMT
#484
this is so stupid, im guessing your not paying for other peoples travels who are attending the event eg from Europe, why should Koreans benefit even if they are some of the best, or are nasl already paying for their tickets
Grr Arr Rawr
Profile Joined April 2011
United States108 Posts
August 12 2011 22:17 GMT
#485
On August 13 2011 06:38 Hikari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 06:20 Grr Arr Rawr wrote:
In regards to Blizzard tournaments, as the owners of the game, it's all advertising to them. All the money they put in most likely comes out of their advertising budget, and is not expected to return a direct profit.



Maybe that is why blizzcon/the current invitations are free to watch over amazing directTV streams, while other leagues have a membership fee+commercials?


Correct. Tournaments like NASL, MLG, and NASL are selling the tournament as the product- therefore, they have to make money on it.

BlizzCon and the Blizzard invitationals, on the other hand (as well as the IGN Proleague, I believe, but as I am posting this on my phone, I don't want to say for certain because it would be too much trouble to look up right now) have a product that is completely independent of the tournament. The tournaments are really just advertising their other products, and therefore don't have to be self-sustaining because the money is coming in elsewhere.
You can't rhyme against the dark side of the Force, why even bother? So many dudes been with your mom, who even KNOWS if I'm your father!
Grr Arr Rawr
Profile Joined April 2011
United States108 Posts
August 12 2011 22:19 GMT
#486
On August 13 2011 07:13 Snipershot wrote:
this is so stupid, im guessing your not paying for other peoples travels who are attending the event eg from Europe, why should Koreans benefit even if they are some of the best, or are nasl already paying for their tickets



NASL has already stated that the adjustments/accomodations they made (in regards to the travel stipends) apply to every player, not just the Koreans.
You can't rhyme against the dark side of the Force, why even bother? So many dudes been with your mom, who even KNOWS if I'm your father!
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 22:24:18
August 12 2011 22:23 GMT
#487
I see absolutely ZERO justification from the Korean side. If you don't want to participate, then DON'T. But don't blame it on the NASL because they don't want to pay for YOUR tickets. If you don't want to participate, then don't, but don't victimize the NASL for it. Utter garbage by SC2con.

Also, the adjustment of the travel stipend and reduced prize pool does not make it so "same amount of prize money one." It means, no matter how you perform, you're giving up less to go.

Absolutely AWFUL statement by them, in fact, I'm actually more supportive of the NASL if this was their mentality (despite it not being an official statement).
Lamphead
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada241 Posts
August 12 2011 22:24 GMT
#488
didn't players have to share rooms and stuff for NASL? That's pretty extreme..
We didn't lose the game. We just ran out of time. - Vince Lombardi
alwaid
Profile Joined October 2010
United States96 Posts
August 12 2011 22:31 GMT
#489
Just because players expressly agree to a contract DOES NOT mean that a contract is fair. Not all contracts are made clear and people sign bad contracts all the time, even without a language barrier. The NASL is lucky that they're escaping without a lawsuit, in my opinion. If it were Americans being treated this way within their own country, a much larger outcry would happen. It may be bm for the koreans to bow out so last minute, but compared to an unfair contract lawsuit, NASL is getting off easy.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
August 12 2011 22:31 GMT
#490
It's amazing to see people who play a game for a living, with 40k on the line, see playing 1 series a week as a waste of their time unless they are paid on top of it.
Carrilord has arrived.
CatharsisUT
Profile Joined March 2011
United States487 Posts
August 12 2011 22:49 GMT
#491
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete evenly. You can't make assumptions and use personal anecdotes like that. If the Koreans say the conditions are too bad for them, you can't really tell them it's not. Follow your own advice and think before you post.


Millions of people wake up early to do their job. For this article to tout the professional nature of these teams and at the same time complain about waking up early is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.
Devolved
Profile Joined April 2008
United States2753 Posts
August 12 2011 23:00 GMT
#492
On August 13 2011 07:31 daowns wrote:
Just because players expressly agree to a contract DOES NOT mean that a contract is fair. Not all contracts are made clear and people sign bad contracts all the time, even without a language barrier. The NASL is lucky that they're escaping without a lawsuit, in my opinion. If it were Americans being treated this way within their own country, a much larger outcry would happen. It may be bm for the koreans to bow out so last minute, but compared to an unfair contract lawsuit, NASL is getting off easy.

lol, unfair contract lawsuit...that's a good one. You obviously have no idea how contracts, the legal system, or the world in general operates. There is such a thing as a breach of contract lawsuit (in which case it would be the Koreans being sued, not NASL), but there is no such thing as an unfair contract lawsuit. And Americans DID sign the contract and they didn't make a fuss about it, albeit their costs are less than Koreans. However, all this talk about lawsuits is moot. I highly doubt there will be one as the legal costs would most likely be higher than the payout, not to mention it would blemish NASL's reputation and future relations with Korea.
$♥$
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
August 12 2011 23:01 GMT
#493
On August 13 2011 07:31 daowns wrote:
Just because players expressly agree to a contract DOES NOT mean that a contract is fair. Not all contracts are made clear and people sign bad contracts all the time, even without a language barrier. The NASL is lucky that they're escaping without a lawsuit, in my opinion. If it were Americans being treated this way within their own country, a much larger outcry would happen. It may be bm for the koreans to bow out so last minute, but compared to an unfair contract lawsuit, NASL is getting off easy.

LOL what?

How is NASL making them sign a bad contract? What complaint could the koreans make to actually sue NASL? NASL has not broken any contract or done anything wrong.

IF you don't think the contract is fair or the league is fair, don't qualify. But by signing the contracts, they agreed to the terms, whether they are fair or not (which they are) doesn't matter when you already agreed to them.

Koreans broke the contracts, not NASL.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
August 12 2011 23:04 GMT
#494
On August 13 2011 07:49 CatharsisUT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete evenly. You can't make assumptions and use personal anecdotes like that. If the Koreans say the conditions are too bad for them, you can't really tell them it's not. Follow your own advice and think before you post.


Millions of people wake up early to do their job. For this article to tout the professional nature of these teams and at the same time complain about waking up early is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.


The problem is that they have their own practice schedule already. Imagine if your practice schedule involves waking up at, say, 10 am, and pretty much practicing all day with food breaks and exercise breaks (basically, a normal schedule) until 2 am. That there is their job schedule. Waking up at 4 am is an ADDED burden that is not a part of their normal job schedule.
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
August 12 2011 23:08 GMT
#495
On August 13 2011 08:04 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 07:49 CatharsisUT wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete evenly. You can't make assumptions and use personal anecdotes like that. If the Koreans say the conditions are too bad for them, you can't really tell them it's not. Follow your own advice and think before you post.


Millions of people wake up early to do their job. For this article to tout the professional nature of these teams and at the same time complain about waking up early is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.


The problem is that they have their own practice schedule already. Imagine if your practice schedule involves waking up at, say, 10 am, and pretty much practicing all day with food breaks and exercise breaks (basically, a normal schedule) until 2 am. That there is their job schedule. Waking up at 4 am is an ADDED burden that is not a part of their normal job schedule.


Yeah, but they get a chance at a $100,000 prize pool. Thats why they signed up in the first place. Is it ideal? No. Is it so difficult that they won't do it? Seems unlikely as they went through season 1 and did very well. Plus NASL was working the schedules so they would play at 2 am this season, which isn't that bad at all.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
CatharsisUT
Profile Joined March 2011
United States487 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 23:13:16
August 12 2011 23:10 GMT
#496
Welcome to the real world. Sometimes you have to do things at inconvevient times to do your job. Or you can half-ass it. We can see what they have chosen.

Edit: I think some people in the community have this idea that real jobs have a well-defined timeframe each day. The truth is that none of the good ones do. This is further evidence.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
August 12 2011 23:11 GMT
#497
On August 13 2011 06:55 ShinyGerbil wrote:
IMO it doesn't seem fair for all the players qualifying for NASL finals to get an equal travel stipend, as people already living in the states will probably profit from this while koreans will be down hundreds of dollars. I think something like a $500 stiped for north americans and $1500 for "international" players is much more reasonable.

Also if NASL is so stretched for cash, why not make the finals top 8 and double elim, like the blizzard NA invitational going on right now? It'll be the same amount of games, likely the same hype and quality of gameplay (if not better because it's all top 8 players) and half the travel costs.


Hence North American Starleague. If you don't want to compete, then don't. It's really blowing my mind all these people thinking that players should be entitled to additional compensation despite being an even larger convenience than those in NA.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 23:16:38
August 12 2011 23:15 GMT
#498
Judging from the limited information we have receiving, I'm not liking SC2con at all. Seems like some players do want to play regardless of all this(sC) but are limited because of SC2con? Sounds like Kespa vSC2 more than helping out players interest. Playing in the qualifiers for a league then promptly before the league starts saying "we don't like your league so unless you change X we won't play" is childish. You raise your concerns far in advance.
KaiserReinhard
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States554 Posts
August 12 2011 23:18 GMT
#499
It's been said before that the vehicle of Esports is technology, but I would say money is a close second. Here's hoping that there will be some high profile corporate sponsors in the future who will take care of things like this.
twitch.tv/imkirok
AllHailCommonSense
Profile Joined August 2011
22 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 23:19:36
August 12 2011 23:19 GMT
#500
So I guess signing a contract for season 2 and then breaching that contract is no big deal in Korealand. If they didn't like the conditions, they should not have signed and waited this long to pull out, pretty simple. Really shameful and unprofessional on the korean teams' part.
VenerableSpace
Profile Joined May 2010
United States463 Posts
August 12 2011 23:23 GMT
#501
personally i dont think i can watch much NASL without the better players participating .

I will try though and probably pay for it just to support NASL and hope i dont lose interest.
Kvz
Profile Joined March 2010
United States463 Posts
August 13 2011 00:01 GMT
#502
i think its sad that the koreans view themselves as a high-priced commodity and poses a list of demands. NASL is obviously for profit, and yes, they should increase their travel stipend for players traveling to the event, but it doesn't mean they should provide EVERYTHING.

example:
I played wow professional during the 2007/2008 wsvg circuit. my team was invited to go to PARIS for a blizzard championship event. blizzard provided our entire team with a 5000$ travel stipend to make the trip. our team consisted of 3 people. in this situation NASL is offering 2k a person, but with reduced prize money. I believe its relatively the same thing?
NrG.Kvz
gosu86
Profile Joined June 2011
208 Posts
August 13 2011 00:09 GMT
#503
lol it's going to be amateur star league with the koreaans gone
just like ign league lol

thank god i didnt pre purchase season 2 ticket

just want to see the best foreigners vs the best koreans =( equals gg oh well shit happens life moves on

mcjinzo
Profile Joined July 2010
79 Posts
August 13 2011 01:21 GMT
#504
On August 13 2011 08:23 VenerableSpace wrote:
personally i dont think i can watch much NASL without the better players participating .

I will try though and probably pay for it just to support NASL and hope i dont lose interest.


yea this is how i feel. im going to buy nasl cause it IS still a good deal for how many vods you get. but thinking back to all the vods i made a point of watching or staying up and watching......lets just say that number is going to drop alittle.
jenzebubble
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States183 Posts
August 13 2011 01:37 GMT
#505
On August 13 2011 08:18 KaiserReinhard wrote:
It's been said before that the vehicle of Esports is technology, but I would say money is a close second. Here's hoping that there will be some high profile corporate sponsors in the future who will take care of things like this.


Why would this attract sponsors? You can hope on one hand and shit in the other, which fills up faster?
"It's like waxing your balls, it hurts like a biiiitch but after they are silky smooth...." -Kennigit
TheAuditor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States136 Posts
August 13 2011 01:50 GMT
#506
This article is pretty much telling me not to invest in any Korean company because they aren't interested in making money...
Azaryah
Profile Joined September 2010
United States55 Posts
August 13 2011 02:11 GMT
#507
On August 12 2011 16:31 hitpoint wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:25 EchoZ wrote:
On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean


Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't?


MLG and GOM's situations can't be compared with NASL.

MLG only pays for 4 people.

Also the foreigners that go to GSL stand to win very little money, if any. The Koreans that would be coming over to NASL's top 16 can pretty easily make much more money than what they spent.


This guy hit it on the head about the money situation.

As far as I can see, the NASL has only really done one majorly bad thing, and that was having the open bracket soooo late in the season, and then guaranteeing the winner a spot in the finals. All the other players worked for months to get to the finals. I have nothing against Puma, he is a fantastic player, he saw an opportunity and took it, and I don't blame him for that. It's on NASL's shoulders to change that format up. If you want to have an open bracket for unknown players, do it early and give them a regular seating.
'Be water, my friend"
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
August 13 2011 02:18 GMT
#508
On August 13 2011 08:04 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 07:49 CatharsisUT wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete evenly. You can't make assumptions and use personal anecdotes like that. If the Koreans say the conditions are too bad for them, you can't really tell them it's not. Follow your own advice and think before you post.


Millions of people wake up early to do their job. For this article to tout the professional nature of these teams and at the same time complain about waking up early is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.


The problem is that they have their own practice schedule already. Imagine if your practice schedule involves waking up at, say, 10 am, and pretty much practicing all day with food breaks and exercise breaks (basically, a normal schedule) until 2 am. That there is their job schedule. Waking up at 4 am is an ADDED burden that is not a part of their normal job schedule.


if you cant handle it dont sign up for the league?

or work on a different sleep pattern, so you can wake up for nasl / any american league play some games then sleep for 4 hours, wake up again around mid day and hit the second part of your normal korean time practice.


progamers have a notorious sleep schedule anyway. with their gsl games not played till the evening it isnt a rediculous idea to switch the whole house to waking up at 12 am and playing till 4 am so they can compete on the US time zone too. with the majority of esports growth happening in the US this seems like a completely logical idea and isnt any more extreme than say.... moving into a house with 20 other people to play 10 hours a day for the hope to just qualify for code a.
opticalza
Profile Joined May 2010
New Zealand188 Posts
August 13 2011 02:27 GMT
#509
Don't feel like their reasons justify how they acted.

The reasons themselves are legitimate. If the players do not like how the tournament is run they could of simply chosen to not participate, as seen by the numerous pull outs from Season 1 such as Boxer and Naniwa. Signing up for season 2 fully aware of what NASL was offering, agreeing to the terms and conditions, signing a contract, and then raising issues and pulling out when production has begun is totally unprofessional and unacceptable in my opinion. They knew how NASL worked, if they did not like it they did not have to participate, or should of raised their concerns prior to signing up for the league.
Sina92
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden1303 Posts
August 13 2011 02:33 GMT
#510
this isn't good for anyone
My penis is 15 inches long, I'm a Harvard professor and look better than Brad Pitt and Jake Gyllenhaal combined.
hitpoint
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1511 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 02:39:10
August 13 2011 02:37 GMT
#511
This doesn't make me any more sympathetic to the Korean point of view. I don't believe that NASL would keep the security deposits either. This just sounds like the Koreans are trying to preserve their scene by withholding their players from our biggest league.

Our players take huge losses to compete in GSL code A (and qualifiers) for shit money, and they can't justify coming over if they only have 1k for travel expenses? (or 2k with less prize money) Even the Korean reactions are unhappy with the way s2con handled this.

Also this

On August 12 2011 22:42 leakingpear wrote:
WHAT?! Koreans unnecessarily xenophobic towards foreign enterprises? WELL I NEVER.
It's spelled LOSE not LOOSE.
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
August 13 2011 02:44 GMT
#512
On August 13 2011 11:33 Sina92 wrote:
this isn't good for anyone


yup.

but i got a serious question. MLG has flown in koreans before and we dont hear about any problems from their side, is MLG doing something differently that attracts Koreans and makes their stay more welcome? This is the first time I am hearing such extreme complaints in sc2 regarding the invitation of Koreans. It just really looks bad for NASL.
Arkless
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1547 Posts
August 13 2011 02:44 GMT
#513
I don't understand why the koreans feel like they are entitled to full room and board and ticket, to play in a tournament. It's a tournament, not a show match. I feel like they want a steak dinner, at a hod dog stand. Do the players from the us, eu, canada etc get 100% paid for AND the chance to win 100k? No, why do they think they deserve it? Coz it's farther? Please....this isn't the NBA, NHL or MLB
http://www.mixcloud.com/Arkless/ http://www.soundcloud.com/Arkless
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
August 13 2011 02:49 GMT
#514
On August 13 2011 11:44 Golgotha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 11:33 Sina92 wrote:
this isn't good for anyone


yup.

but i got a serious question. MLG has flown in koreans before and we dont hear about any problems from their side, is MLG doing something differently that attracts Koreans and makes their stay more welcome? This is the first time I am hearing such extreme complaints in sc2 regarding the invitation of Koreans. It just really looks bad for NASL.



MLG has a program where they bring top 4 Koreans and pay for all of their expenses.

In all honesty though, NASL is investing a LARGER SUM of money into bringing Koreans, because they are trying to fund 15 Koreans from coming to the league, not just 4. They're not paying for all of the expenses, but the total exceeds the total spent by MLG.

When you remember they're not as big as MLG and have a much bigger prize pool, then you begin to see how generous their offer is.
maahes`ra
Profile Joined January 2011
United States255 Posts
August 13 2011 02:51 GMT
#515
On August 13 2011 11:44 Arkless wrote:
I don't understand why the koreans feel like they are entitled to full room and board and ticket, to play in a tournament. It's a tournament, not a show match. I feel like they want a steak dinner, at a hod dog stand. Do the players from the us, eu, canada etc get 100% paid for AND the chance to win 100k? No, why do they think they deserve it? Coz it's farther? Please....this isn't the NBA, NHL or MLB

Look at all the people that are taking the time to declare they won't be buying an HQ pass for the next NASL, and you'll find your answer.
( ._.) ( ._) ( .) ( ) (≖ ) (‿≖ ) (≖‿≖ ) (≖‿≖) ( ≖‿≖) ( -‿-)
koolaid1990
Profile Joined September 2010
831 Posts
August 13 2011 03:32 GMT
#516
On August 13 2011 11:44 Arkless wrote:
I don't understand why the koreans feel like they are entitled to full room and board and ticket, to play in a tournament. It's a tournament, not a show match. I feel like they want a steak dinner, at a hod dog stand. Do the players from the us, eu, canada etc get 100% paid for AND the chance to win 100k? No, why do they think they deserve it? Coz it's farther? Please....this isn't the NBA, NHL or MLB

LOL lets use boxer for example. Boxer owns his entire NASL group, waking up at 4 am everyday, all this hard work and preparation, and it pays off, he finishes 1st in his group onto the grand finals. He gets a measily $500 to travel to the US, does ONE b03 with frekin MC and loses. What does he do now? nothing. he lost 1 b03. He spent extra money for the plane ticket, woke up at 4 am everyday and played his heart out WITH lag, only to lose 1 b03. In the end, the winner of NASL didnt even play through the ACTUAL NASL, just cut through the open bracket. Imagine how you feel? like total shit. Same goes for someone like Ret, who came first in his group only to lose 1 b03 and be taken out and just stand there for the rest of the tournament.
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
August 13 2011 03:51 GMT
#517
On August 13 2011 12:32 koolaid1990 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 11:44 Arkless wrote:
I don't understand why the koreans feel like they are entitled to full room and board and ticket, to play in a tournament. It's a tournament, not a show match. I feel like they want a steak dinner, at a hod dog stand. Do the players from the us, eu, canada etc get 100% paid for AND the chance to win 100k? No, why do they think they deserve it? Coz it's farther? Please....this isn't the NBA, NHL or MLB

LOL lets use boxer for example. Boxer owns his entire NASL group, waking up at 4 am everyday, all this hard work and preparation, and it pays off, he finishes 1st in his group onto the grand finals. He gets a measily $500 to travel to the US, does ONE b03 with frekin MC and loses. What does he do now? nothing. he lost 1 b03. He spent extra money for the plane ticket, woke up at 4 am everyday and played his heart out WITH lag, only to lose 1 b03. In the end, the winner of NASL didnt even play through the ACTUAL NASL, just cut through the open bracket. Imagine how you feel? like total shit. Same goes for someone like Ret, who came first in his group only to lose 1 b03 and be taken out and just stand there for the rest of the tournament.


I agree with you somewhat on the finals. It does suck. But at the same time, that's the beauty of competitions...that's what's exciting. I'm sorry that Boxer didn't make it as I was rooting for him, but hey, a loss is a loss. It's not NASL's fault, it's his fault, or his opponents fault for being a superior player in that series. I mean, think of other sports where upsets happen...nobody goes, "Oh jay kay do over!" or "Double elmination now please!" Nope, a loss is a loss.

However, NASL has stated that they changed the hours for season 2 after speaking to the players about what's more convenient for them. AND they are allowing koreans to play on korean servers when playing other koreans. Given those special privlidges, on top of the travel stipends, I don't think the Koreans have too much to complain about.

It's okay if they still feel it's not worth it, as it's everyone's personal decision what they choose to do with their time. It's just that it no longer becomes the fault of the league.

PS: Boxer and NASL both stated they are on good terms with each other. I think a large part of that is that Boxer was timely with his withdrawal and NASL put no pressure on Boxer to participate when he did not want to.
KaiserReinhard
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States554 Posts
August 13 2011 03:52 GMT
#518
On August 13 2011 10:37 jenzebubble wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 08:18 KaiserReinhard wrote:
It's been said before that the vehicle of Esports is technology, but I would say money is a close second. Here's hoping that there will be some high profile corporate sponsors in the future who will take care of things like this.


Why would this attract sponsors? You can hope on one hand and shit in the other, which fills up faster?


I don't think you understood what I was saying, but at least you got to use that cool phrase.
twitch.tv/imkirok
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
August 13 2011 03:54 GMT
#519
On August 13 2011 11:18 turdburgler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 08:04 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 13 2011 07:49 CatharsisUT wrote:
On August 12 2011 19:05 dabom88 wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:57 superbabosheki wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:52 bearhug wrote:

I find that most people think that the Koreans are not satisfied with the amount of money NASL provide for their traveling.

Many peope are doing the math and trying to figure out something. But money is not the key part. Even if NASL double the amount of money offered to the Koreans ($2000 x 2 = $4000), I still doubt that they would participate. Koreans didn't withdraw from Dreamhack, TSL 3, IEM, CPL, etc, not because those tournament provided more traveling fund or prize money than NASL, but because those did not cost them too much time and energy.

People forget that you have to wake up in the very early morning for each match over the period of 3 months to fighting for the possibility of getting to the finals. It's possible that after playing in horrible conditions for 3 months, you fail to enter the finals and thus get $0. Not to mention that most of them have to prepare for and participate in GSLs and GSTL. And even if you are able to get to the finals, you get $1000 - 1500 prize money 90% of the time ( there are 16 players in the final stage and only one Champion who takes the $40,000).


In a word, it is all because of the set up for NASL, i.e., the 3-month super long season. For Koreans, that would be too much of a commitment. It is neither NASL's fault nor Koreans' fault. It's just that sc2 still has a long way to go.

Hey quit bolding three months, it's not a big deal. It's once a week, 10 times total. I had to wake up at 5a.m over the summer to commute to school and I was used to it after the first day. I'm sure they would be allowed to sleep a little early the day before if they wanted to and still get a good amount of sleep. And learn your math, wtf is 90% getting $1000-1500, each time you move up in the bracket you earn a higher amount, which means only 50% would get the lowest amount. Then consider the fact that they are all favored over the foreigners, increasing that percentage even more.

Please think before you post.


You can't make the assumption that the schedule isn't a big deal for Koreans. Just because you can have that kind of schedule doesn't mean the Koreans can and compete evenly. You can't make assumptions and use personal anecdotes like that. If the Koreans say the conditions are too bad for them, you can't really tell them it's not. Follow your own advice and think before you post.


Millions of people wake up early to do their job. For this article to tout the professional nature of these teams and at the same time complain about waking up early is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.


The problem is that they have their own practice schedule already. Imagine if your practice schedule involves waking up at, say, 10 am, and pretty much practicing all day with food breaks and exercise breaks (basically, a normal schedule) until 2 am. That there is their job schedule. Waking up at 4 am is an ADDED burden that is not a part of their normal job schedule.


if you cant handle it dont sign up for the league?

or work on a different sleep pattern, so you can wake up for nasl / any american league play some games then sleep for 4 hours, wake up again around mid day and hit the second part of your normal korean time practice.


progamers have a notorious sleep schedule anyway. with their gsl games not played till the evening it isnt a rediculous idea to switch the whole house to waking up at 12 am and playing till 4 am so they can compete on the US time zone too. with the majority of esports growth happening in the US this seems like a completely logical idea and isnt any more extreme than say.... moving into a house with 20 other people to play 10 hours a day for the hope to just qualify for code a.


I agree that you shouldn't sign up if you can't handle it to begin with. My only reason for making that point was to argue that the "Millions of people wake up early to do their job" example isn't valid.
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1597 Posts
August 13 2011 04:06 GMT
#520
On August 13 2011 12:32 koolaid1990 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 11:44 Arkless wrote:
I don't understand why the koreans feel like they are entitled to full room and board and ticket, to play in a tournament. It's a tournament, not a show match. I feel like they want a steak dinner, at a hod dog stand. Do the players from the us, eu, canada etc get 100% paid for AND the chance to win 100k? No, why do they think they deserve it? Coz it's farther? Please....this isn't the NBA, NHL or MLB

LOL lets use boxer for example. Boxer owns his entire NASL group, waking up at 4 am everyday, all this hard work and preparation, and it pays off, he finishes 1st in his group onto the grand finals. He gets a measily $500 to travel to the US, does ONE b03 with frekin MC and loses. What does he do now? nothing. he lost 1 b03. He spent extra money for the plane ticket, woke up at 4 am everyday and played his heart out WITH lag, only to lose 1 b03. In the end, the winner of NASL didnt even play through the ACTUAL NASL, just cut through the open bracket. Imagine how you feel? like total shit. Same goes for someone like Ret, who came first in his group only to lose 1 b03 and be taken out and just stand there for the rest of the tournament.


Boxer only owned a bunch of overrated white dudes. End of story. Sure some games were tough, but the minimal lag wasn't enough to affect the fact that he is 2x better than most of the people he played.

Boxer risked $1k (could be off a bit, but an example) to win 50,000 in a pool of 16 players?
That in poker is a godsend, but for a gamer it is too much? Lmfao

Ret.....

Sorry, but overall time invested before final is like what 20 hours? For a possible 50k? If I were as good as them I'd play every NASL because it just makes sense.
AllSalesFinal
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States211 Posts
August 13 2011 04:31 GMT
#521
On August 13 2011 03:26 jenzebubble wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:25 NASL.tv wrote:
We are not planning of doing anything of the sort -- we're going to move on with our lives, and make sure NASL Season 2 is awesome !


Sorry to hear about S3.



What about season 3? I am confused about this statement.
| MMA | Flash | Polt |
reddog1999
Profile Joined June 2009
United States143 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 04:41:08
August 13 2011 04:37 GMT
#522
On August 13 2011 11:51 maahes`ra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 11:44 Arkless wrote:
I don't understand why the koreans feel like they are entitled to full room and board and ticket, to play in a tournament. It's a tournament, not a show match. I feel like they want a steak dinner, at a hod dog stand. Do the players from the us, eu, canada etc get 100% paid for AND the chance to win 100k? No, why do they think they deserve it? Coz it's farther? Please....this isn't the NBA, NHL or MLB

Look at all the people that are taking the time to declare they won't be buying an HQ pass for the next NASL, and you'll find your answer.



I will be making sure i take the time to buy nasl over gsl anyday now. I support "world" esports over korea esports anyday. It's about world esports not just some one location.
Cynoks
Profile Joined May 2010
United States87 Posts
August 13 2011 04:45 GMT
#523
The management of the Korean scene seem to have this idea that they should control every aspect of eSports and they're literally looking at it like a dictatorship. SC2Con and the Coaches are telling their players where, when, and with whom the players are allowed to play with and they're also trying to tell OUR american tournaments how they should be run.

NASL doesn't have to give players shit to cover travel expenses and yet they're bending over backwards trying to get these players in their tournament but yet SC2Con and GOMTV are trying to maintain a stranglehold on the SC2 eSport. I feel bad for the players that are going to miss the opportunity to play in and probably win a huge tournament. These hypocritical pricks also offer a hell of a lot less than this to foreign players who want to get in the GSL.
FryktSkyene
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1327 Posts
August 13 2011 04:48 GMT
#524
Why play in NASL just win the open bracket and skip the entire season and win anyway!

Thats how puma won right? He didn't even play in the NASL and still got 1st.
Snitches get stiches
Arkless
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1547 Posts
August 13 2011 04:49 GMT
#525
On August 13 2011 12:51 whateverpeeps wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 12:32 koolaid1990 wrote:
On August 13 2011 11:44 Arkless wrote:
I don't understand why the koreans feel like they are entitled to full room and board and ticket, to play in a tournament. It's a tournament, not a show match. I feel like they want a steak dinner, at a hod dog stand. Do the players from the us, eu, canada etc get 100% paid for AND the chance to win 100k? No, why do they think they deserve it? Coz it's farther? Please....this isn't the NBA, NHL or MLB

LOL lets use boxer for example. Boxer owns his entire NASL group, waking up at 4 am everyday, all this hard work and preparation, and it pays off, he finishes 1st in his group onto the grand finals. He gets a measily $500 to travel to the US, does ONE b03 with frekin MC and loses. What does he do now? nothing. he lost 1 b03. He spent extra money for the plane ticket, woke up at 4 am everyday and played his heart out WITH lag, only to lose 1 b03. In the end, the winner of NASL didnt even play through the ACTUAL NASL, just cut through the open bracket. Imagine how you feel? like total shit. Same goes for someone like Ret, who came first in his group only to lose 1 b03 and be taken out and just stand there for the rest of the tournament.


I agree with you somewhat on the finals. It does suck. But at the same time, that's the beauty of competitions...that's what's exciting. I'm sorry that Boxer didn't make it as I was rooting for him, but hey, a loss is a loss. It's not NASL's fault, it's his fault, or his opponents fault for being a superior player in that series. I mean, think of other sports where upsets happen...nobody goes, "Oh jay kay do over!" or "Double elmination now please!" Nope, a loss is a loss.

However, NASL has stated that they changed the hours for season 2 after speaking to the players about what's more convenient for them. AND they are allowing koreans to play on korean servers when playing other koreans. Given those special privlidges, on top of the travel stipends, I don't think the Koreans have too much to complain about.

It's okay if they still feel it's not worth it, as it's everyone's personal decision what they choose to do with their time. It's just that it no longer becomes the fault of the league.

PS: Boxer and NASL both stated they are on good terms with each other. I think a large part of that is that Boxer was timely with his withdrawal and NASL put no pressure on Boxer to participate when he did not want to.

It's still a tournament, not a show match. Nothing is guaranteed, nor are you entitled to special treatment, period. Do you think rets costs were covered 100%? Probably not. And his costs were roughly the same, maybe even more. They act like the are owed something, when they aren't. If they don't like the terms, then don't play. But releasing a statement bashing another league coz they won't meet your demands is unprofessional. Personally, I expected more from our friends in korea. And on another note, I wonder how much of idra's trip to korea was covered and provided to him from kespa? His teams paid for him, so what's the difference?
http://www.mixcloud.com/Arkless/ http://www.soundcloud.com/Arkless
Razakel
Profile Joined April 2011
Ireland466 Posts
August 13 2011 04:53 GMT
#526
On August 13 2011 13:31 AllSalesFinal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 03:26 jenzebubble wrote:
On August 13 2011 03:25 NASL.tv wrote:
We are not planning of doing anything of the sort -- we're going to move on with our lives, and make sure NASL Season 2 is awesome !


Sorry to hear about S3.



What about season 3? I am confused about this statement.


I think he was making a cheap jab @ NASLs expense. That removing the Koreans will lead to a bad season 2, so the tournament will be dead by the time season 3 rolls around.

It's also possible he just mistyped :p
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
August 13 2011 04:53 GMT
#527
The koreans or those who represent them sound like a bunch of Prima donnas. I never heard any foreigners whining about this and they made way less money usually dropping out by RO16.

Sad. Have to support foreigner tournaments more from now on.
MC for president
venge1155
Profile Joined January 2011
United States174 Posts
August 13 2011 04:56 GMT
#528
Do not lump GOMtv into this they have as well bent over backwards to accommodate foreigners players (so far as setting up a house with what, 8 spots in it?) and a big trading deal with MLG. GSL is about as welcoming as it gets.

As far as what NASL could have done...not much more really. I personally do not see why they don't write into the contract that after X amount of no shows (or whatever it is they are afraid of with the security deposit) The player/team has to pay a 500 dollar penalty. The only reason i see to do it as a deposit for everyone would be if that money was actually needed to run the thing like a reverse mortgage.
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
August 13 2011 04:57 GMT
#529
On August 13 2011 13:45 Cynoks wrote:
The management of the Korean scene seem to have this idea that they should control every aspect of eSports and they're literally looking at it like a dictatorship. SC2Con and the Coaches are telling their players where, when, and with whom the players are allowed to play with and they're also trying to tell OUR american tournaments how they should be run.

NASL doesn't have to give players shit to cover travel expenses and yet they're bending over backwards trying to get these players in their tournament but yet SC2Con and GOMTV are trying to maintain a stranglehold on the SC2 eSport. I feel bad for the players that are going to miss the opportunity to play in and probably win a huge tournament. These hypocritical pricks also offer a hell of a lot less than this to foreign players who want to get in the GSL.



Won't be buying anymore GOMTV spots either since it seems they are trying to leverage monopoly power by holding out players. Worse is timing.
MC for president
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 05:02:38
August 13 2011 05:01 GMT
#530
On August 13 2011 13:56 venge1155 wrote:
Do not lump GOMtv into this they have as well bent over backwards to accommodate foreigners players (so far as setting up a house with what, 8 spots in it?) and a big trading deal with MLG. GSL is about as welcoming as it gets.

As far as what NASL could have done...not much more really. I personally do not see why they don't write into the contract that after X amount of no shows (or whatever it is they are afraid of with the security deposit) The player/team has to pay a 500 dollar penalty. The only reason i see to do it as a deposit for everyone would be if that money was actually needed to run the thing like a reverse mortgage.

Not even bending over backwards. They give foriengers a shot at chump change $1200 in their secondary league an month long tourney. I make more than $1200 working at lowes as a student 3/4 time in a month. And that's only if they win it.

Koreans get seeded and invites for big money right away in MLG/Dreamhack/NASL, etc
MC for president
Krehlmar
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1149 Posts
August 13 2011 05:06 GMT
#531
Haha love that the NASL responds and this time they're 1000% more modest and nice towards the koreans.
My Comment Doesnt Matter Because No One Reads It
DarkRise
Profile Joined November 2010
1644 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 05:16:21
August 13 2011 05:11 GMT
#532
A ridiculous bias opinion!!!
NASL give Koreans an opportunity to earn money outside of GSL. The players can't sustain their lives just by playing 1 single tournament considering how tough the practice time in Korea. If they are out of GSL, they grow mold practicing waiting for next GSL season? Also the fact that they have high chances of getting that 50k 1st place prize. GOM and MLG are entirely different since NASL will fly 16 players.
NASL offer 2k so coming to the finals isn't a loss, It's just like a vacation if you didn't manage to pass RO16.
Oktyabr
Profile Joined July 2011
Singapore2234 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 05:16:30
August 13 2011 05:16 GMT
#533
On August 13 2011 13:57 tdt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 13:45 Cynoks wrote:
The management of the Korean scene seem to have this idea that they should control every aspect of eSports and they're literally looking at it like a dictatorship. SC2Con and the Coaches are telling their players where, when, and with whom the players are allowed to play with and they're also trying to tell OUR american tournaments how they should be run.

NASL doesn't have to give players shit to cover travel expenses and yet they're bending over backwards trying to get these players in their tournament but yet SC2Con and GOMTV are trying to maintain a stranglehold on the SC2 eSport. I feel bad for the players that are going to miss the opportunity to play in and probably win a huge tournament. These hypocritical pricks also offer a hell of a lot less than this to foreign players who want to get in the GSL.



Won't be buying anymore GOMTV spots either since it seems they are trying to leverage monopoly power by holding out players. Worse is timing.


GOMTV has nothing to do with this. Mr Chae is simply an intermediary who happens to speak better English than anyone else in SC2con, a committee made up of managers and coaches from the Korean SC2 teams. Don't drag GSL into this, please.
DystopiaX
Profile Joined October 2010
United States16236 Posts
August 13 2011 05:19 GMT
#534
On August 13 2011 14:11 DarkRise wrote:
A ridiculous bias opinion!!!
NASL give Koreans an opportunity to earn money outside of GSL. The players can't sustain their lives just by playing 1 single tournament considering how tough the practice time in Korea. If they are out of GSL, they grow mold practicing waiting for next GSL season? Also the fact that they have high chances of getting that 50k 1st place prize. GOM and MLG are entirely different since NASL will fly 16 players.
NASL offer 2k so coming to the finals isn't a loss, It's just like a vacation if you didn't manage to pass RO16.

It's 1k and the other 1k is taken out of prize money, money that would have gone to those players anyway. And if 1k doesn't cover their expenses it's not that much.
DystopiaX
Profile Joined October 2010
United States16236 Posts
August 13 2011 05:20 GMT
#535
On August 13 2011 13:53 tdt wrote:
The koreans or those who represent them sound like a bunch of Prima donnas. I never heard any foreigners whining about this and they made way less money usually dropping out by RO16.

Sad. Have to support foreigner tournaments more from now on.

Foreigners don't have to pay over a thousand dollars for plane tickets to California alone; their expenses are way lower and they have way more money in sponsorships, etc. to pay for those plane tickets. Many Korean teams are in a tough spot financially and have to pay susbstantially more to make the playoffs; the reason they're complaining and the foreign players aren't is cause their situations are completely different.
Hikari
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
1914 Posts
August 13 2011 05:23 GMT
#536
On August 13 2011 14:20 DystopiaX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 13:53 tdt wrote:
The koreans or those who represent them sound like a bunch of Prima donnas. I never heard any foreigners whining about this and they made way less money usually dropping out by RO16.

Sad. Have to support foreigner tournaments more from now on.

Foreigners don't have to pay over a thousand dollars for plane tickets to California alone; their expenses are way lower and they have way more money in sponsorships, etc. to pay for those plane tickets. Many Korean teams are in a tough spot financially and have to pay susbstantially more to make the playoffs; the reason they're complaining and the foreign players aren't is cause their situations are completely different.


Not to mention Korean teams provides food and shelter (maybe equipment too) to their players. Creating that perfect training environment cost money.
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
August 13 2011 05:30 GMT
#537
On August 13 2011 14:20 DystopiaX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 13:53 tdt wrote:
The koreans or those who represent them sound like a bunch of Prima donnas. I never heard any foreigners whining about this and they made way less money usually dropping out by RO16.

Sad. Have to support foreigner tournaments more from now on.

Foreigners don't have to pay over a thousand dollars for plane tickets to California alone; their expenses are way lower and they have way more money in sponsorships, etc. to pay for those plane tickets. Many Korean teams are in a tough spot financially and have to pay susbstantially more to make the playoffs; the reason they're complaining and the foreign players aren't is cause their situations are completely different.

Foreigner came from just as far as Korea, sen and whitera. It costs more to fly from Ukraine to CA than Inchon to CA. I don't hear WhiteRa/sen whining. In fact they spent extended time there and helped promote and made a vacation out of it.

How do you know how foreign/korean teams are doing? I wasn't aware they had a 10K posting. Pure speculation unless books are open.
MC for president
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
August 13 2011 05:59 GMT
#538
On August 13 2011 14:01 tdt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 13:56 venge1155 wrote:
Do not lump GOMtv into this they have as well bent over backwards to accommodate foreigners players (so far as setting up a house with what, 8 spots in it?) and a big trading deal with MLG. GSL is about as welcoming as it gets.

As far as what NASL could have done...not much more really. I personally do not see why they don't write into the contract that after X amount of no shows (or whatever it is they are afraid of with the security deposit) The player/team has to pay a 500 dollar penalty. The only reason i see to do it as a deposit for everyone would be if that money was actually needed to run the thing like a reverse mortgage.

Not even bending over backwards. They give foriengers a shot at chump change $1200 in their secondary league an month long tourney. I make more than $1200 working at lowes as a student 3/4 time in a month. And that's only if they win it.

Koreans get seeded and invites for big money right away in MLG/Dreamhack/NASL, etc


News flash! They are playing a video game for a living. Albeit, it's not like it's an easy life, but to pretend that they are somehow entitled to a "Lowes paycheck" is absurd. This is how it works in all forms of entertainment workforces. All but the stars get paid little compared to the educated (or not) citizen.

Also, to fix an error in your statement, first place in Code A gets ~$1400 along with the automatic ~$1400 that comes with Code S Ro32 (~$2800 total).
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 06:07:20
August 13 2011 06:05 GMT
#539
On August 13 2011 14:59 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 14:01 tdt wrote:
On August 13 2011 13:56 venge1155 wrote:
Do not lump GOMtv into this they have as well bent over backwards to accommodate foreigners players (so far as setting up a house with what, 8 spots in it?) and a big trading deal with MLG. GSL is about as welcoming as it gets.

As far as what NASL could have done...not much more really. I personally do not see why they don't write into the contract that after X amount of no shows (or whatever it is they are afraid of with the security deposit) The player/team has to pay a 500 dollar penalty. The only reason i see to do it as a deposit for everyone would be if that money was actually needed to run the thing like a reverse mortgage.

Not even bending over backwards. They give foriengers a shot at chump change $1200 in their secondary league an month long tourney. I make more than $1200 working at lowes as a student 3/4 time in a month. And that's only if they win it.

Koreans get seeded and invites for big money right away in MLG/Dreamhack/NASL, etc


News flash! They are playing a video game for a living. Albeit, it's not like it's an easy life, but to pretend that they are somehow entitled to a "Lowes paycheck" is absurd. This is how it works in all forms of entertainment workforces. All but the stars get paid little compared to the educated (or not) citizen.

Also, to fix an error in your statement, first place in Code A gets ~$1400 along with the automatic ~$1400 that comes with Code S Ro32 (~$2800 total).


Niggling over exact pay or dynamic of entertainers pay doesn't negate the fact, foreigners get placed in a secondary league while Koreas get placed at the top of foreign tounaments. No TSL/MLG qualifiers just seeded in contention for grand prize. That's hardly GSL bending over backwards.
MC for president
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
August 13 2011 06:19 GMT
#540
Well, looks like it's Kespa II going on in Korea now. Those demands seem pretty ridiculous to me, especially when NASL is already providing 1K + 1K for each of the players.
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 06:26:50
August 13 2011 06:26 GMT
#541
On August 13 2011 14:20 DystopiaX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 13:53 tdt wrote:
The koreans or those who represent them sound like a bunch of Prima donnas. I never heard any foreigners whining about this and they made way less money usually dropping out by RO16.

Sad. Have to support foreigner tournaments more from now on.

Foreigners don't have to pay over a thousand dollars for plane tickets to California alone; their expenses are way lower and they have way more money in sponsorships, etc. to pay for those plane tickets. Many Korean teams are in a tough spot financially and have to pay susbstantially more to make the playoffs; the reason they're complaining and the foreign players aren't is cause their situations are completely different.



White-Ra's ticket cost 1,500 round trip, and because of the duckload.com mess, he paid it out of pocket.
Thank God and gunrun.
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
August 13 2011 06:42 GMT
#542
NASL failing in every way possible, somehow im not surprised. I think NASL is digging their own grave, the security deposit stuff is ridiculous.
NicolBolas
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1388 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 06:55:09
August 13 2011 06:51 GMT
#543
On August 13 2011 15:42 RedDragon571 wrote:
NASL failing in every way possible, somehow im not surprised. I think NASL is digging their own grave, the security deposit stuff is ridiculous.


What "security deposit stuff"? You mean the "security deposit stuff" that they're paying as stated in the contract that SC2Con broke? You mean how the NASL is upholding a contract that the other party grossly and flagrantly violated?

You can complain about the "security deposit stuff" on the 61st day, the day after when the NASL was required to return the deposit by. The NASL is required to return that deposit in 60 days. Not "immediately". But until that 60 days is over, there is nothing you can complain about.
So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
August 13 2011 07:01 GMT
#544
On August 13 2011 15:26 Primadog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 14:20 DystopiaX wrote:
On August 13 2011 13:53 tdt wrote:
The koreans or those who represent them sound like a bunch of Prima donnas. I never heard any foreigners whining about this and they made way less money usually dropping out by RO16.

Sad. Have to support foreigner tournaments more from now on.

Foreigners don't have to pay over a thousand dollars for plane tickets to California alone; their expenses are way lower and they have way more money in sponsorships, etc. to pay for those plane tickets. Many Korean teams are in a tough spot financially and have to pay susbstantially more to make the playoffs; the reason they're complaining and the foreign players aren't is cause their situations are completely different.



White-Ra's ticket cost 1,500 round trip, and because of the duckload.com mess, he paid it out of pocket.

If only more people would realize this. White Ra and Sen had to pay a lot of money to get to the finals. Not every foreigner lives in LA or close to it. I'm sure all the foreign players are very happy that the stipend and 9-16th place spots are each $1,000 each.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
August 13 2011 07:13 GMT
#545
It's truly ridiculous for this person to expect the tournament organisers to spend a fortune on plane tickets for every single korean. In my opinion that's what teams are for. I know korean teams are small time economically compared to the big international ones but come on.

If koreans are leaving korean pro teams for international to have a chance at being in foreign tournaments at all then maybe korean teams should start working more on getting sponsors willing to supply an economical support for the team.

I don't think when EG sends half their roster to finland that they expect assembly to pay the travel expenses.
Inky87
Profile Joined January 2011
United States533 Posts
August 13 2011 07:37 GMT
#546
On August 13 2011 16:13 StarBrift wrote:
It's truly ridiculous for this person to expect the tournament organisers to spend a fortune on plane tickets for every single korean. In my opinion that's what teams are for. I know korean teams are small time economically compared to the big international ones but come on.

If koreans are leaving korean pro teams for international to have a chance at being in foreign tournaments at all then maybe korean teams should start working more on getting sponsors willing to supply an economical support for the team.

I don't think when EG sends half their roster to finland that they expect assembly to pay the travel expenses.


I think this is the crux of the problem. While e-sports is certainly bigger than it was before SC2 came out, that kind of money still isn't there yet. It seems to me that the Korean teams seem to think foreigners are made of money because other tournament organizers can afford to fly people over and pay for their lodgings and such.

I don't know what MLG does for the korean players, but MLG is a much bigger organization now that they've picked up several more sponsorships and NASL is still taking its first steps. The problem is that korean team managers think they have the greatest bargaining chip (their players), but you can't squeeze blood for a stone. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect tournament organizers to spend 10,000 dollars for a six or seven korean pros when these teams should be reaching to outside sponsors like everyone else.

It's all about the money and few people have the kind of money that the korean teams are just expecting others to give them. Personally I thought NASL was being generous by subsidizing everyone's travel expenses.

Let's not forget who really suffers here, the players and the viewers. Why aren't the korean teams looking for sponsorship that can afford to send 3 or 4 players for these big tournaments? Since they have the most talented players in the world, it shouldn't be too difficult.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
August 13 2011 08:11 GMT
#547
On August 13 2011 16:37 Inky87 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 16:13 StarBrift wrote:
It's truly ridiculous for this person to expect the tournament organisers to spend a fortune on plane tickets for every single korean. In my opinion that's what teams are for. I know korean teams are small time economically compared to the big international ones but come on.

If koreans are leaving korean pro teams for international to have a chance at being in foreign tournaments at all then maybe korean teams should start working more on getting sponsors willing to supply an economical support for the team.

I don't think when EG sends half their roster to finland that they expect assembly to pay the travel expenses.


I think this is the crux of the problem. While e-sports is certainly bigger than it was before SC2 came out, that kind of money still isn't there yet. It seems to me that the Korean teams seem to think foreigners are made of money because other tournament organizers can afford to fly people over and pay for their lodgings and such.

I don't know what MLG does for the korean players, but MLG is a much bigger organization now that they've picked up several more sponsorships and NASL is still taking its first steps. The problem is that korean team managers think they have the greatest bargaining chip (their players), but you can't squeeze blood for a stone. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect tournament organizers to spend 10,000 dollars for a six or seven korean pros when these teams should be reaching to outside sponsors like everyone else.

It's all about the money and few people have the kind of money that the korean teams are just expecting others to give them. Personally I thought NASL was being generous by subsidizing everyone's travel expenses.

Let's not forget who really suffers here, the players and the viewers. Why aren't the korean teams looking for sponsorship that can afford to send 3 or 4 players for these big tournaments? Since they have the most talented players in the world, it shouldn't be too difficult.


I couldn't agree more. I don't know the exact economic situation of any pro team but I would be willing to wager that any top korean team could pretty easily get a sponsor willing to send a few players oversees now and again for a little product placement. Maybe they need to look outside korean corporations for this but with the views the streams are getting today it seems like a bargain for any company that has young males as their primary market.
W2
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1177 Posts
August 13 2011 08:36 GMT
#548
respect to White-Ra for paying 1500 for his plane ticket out of pocket, and not making even the slightest fuss about it. Makes these Koreans seem like whiny babies.
Hi
RykuX
Profile Joined March 2011
1200 Posts
August 13 2011 08:44 GMT
#549
This still to much econ cheese from korea they are greedy shouldn't want so much NASL still payed for a lot if you want a shot at that much money.. -_-
speedphlux
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Bulgaria962 Posts
August 13 2011 08:51 GMT
#550
Well I guess NASL Season 2 won't be worth watching then. Not that Season 1 was worth watching too. Apart from the finals themselves, the rest was pretty terrible and given how much troubles the finals had from online viewer's perspective, I guess not a lot of people will be tuning in.
Oh well, I still got the GSL and MLG to look after and whatever else major pops in the way like Dreamhack and IEM will surely fill up my SC2-watching calendar.
... Humanity Is Not What I Suffer From ...
Thrombozyt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1269 Posts
August 13 2011 08:57 GMT
#551
For all people saying that GOM does so much more for their sponsored foreigners:
Imagine NASL would offer to pay the full flight and accomodation in a cheap flat for the complete three month of a NASL season. How many Korean pros would take them up on that offer? Yeah.. thought so..

For all the people nitpicking about the 2000$ money for travel:
Yes, 1000$ of those are part of the prize money but as you get those 1000$ just for showing up, you might as well use it for the travel. Would I go to LA for a weekend if all I had to do was show up, lose a match of starcraft and then check out the country/city FOR FREE? You bet I would. I also would get up at 4 am for ten times. With the increase in travel stipend and the redistribution of the prize pool, it is a sure thing, that no player loses money in participating in the finals.

Finally for the people bitching about the deposit:
What other way is there to ensure players don't drop out the second there is no chance to qualify? Walkovers directly hurt the league and they need to be avoided.
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 09:03:56
August 13 2011 08:58 GMT
#552
On August 13 2011 17:36 W2 wrote:
respect to White-Ra for paying 1500 for his plane ticket out of pocket, and not making even the slightest fuss about it. Makes these Koreans seem like whiny babies.

Not only whiny babies but unethical as well. When you sign a deal you abide by it not breach contract at the last minute as you try and put NASL over the barrel with threats of no show or pay up more than contract stipulates. That whole translation sounds weaselly IMO.

BTW - Anyone know what koreans are not bound to this cartel and will participate?
MC for president
Vei
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2845 Posts
August 13 2011 09:07 GMT
#553
Deposits paid back by yesterday? That's kind of odd.
www.justin.tv/veisc2 ~ 720p + commentary
Tofugrinder
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria899 Posts
August 13 2011 09:07 GMT
#554
I was sceptic at first, but after reading this I'm 100% on the korean side. NASL needs the korean more than the other way around. They should have done something.

the money situation is one part, the other part is the schedule. 2am may be better than 4am to 8am but, surely it's not great. If nasl would just do replay cast none of this would be a problem (but as I said in the NASL season 2 post: nasl didn't change _any_ important point brought up in season 1, so they lost mine and lots of others interest before this. and now I'm quite sure this league is dead outside NA/the US.

Good luck for them in season 2 maybe, they start changing stuff to head in the right direction in season 3 and this league might become an international Star league - but I personally think that NASL doesn't want this in the first place, because they seem to like having not the best players in the world, but "their" players. kinda stupid I think, but that should not be my problem, since there are lots of other tournaments elsewhere
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
August 13 2011 09:12 GMT
#555
On August 13 2011 18:07 Vei wrote:
Deposits paid back by yesterday? That's kind of odd.

Earlier in thread they were starting to be paid back on the 8th. (that's not yesterday) Nothing odds about it Koreans were probably sweating NASL with threats and whatnot to get their money before term.
MC for president
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1597 Posts
August 13 2011 09:20 GMT
#556
On August 13 2011 17:58 tdt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 17:36 W2 wrote:
respect to White-Ra for paying 1500 for his plane ticket out of pocket, and not making even the slightest fuss about it. Makes these Koreans seem like whiny babies.

Not only whiny babies but unethical as well. When you sign a deal you abide by it not breach contract at the last minute as you try and put NASL over the barrel with threats of no show or pay up more than contract stipulates. That whole translation sounds weaselly IMO.

BTW - Anyone know what koreans are not bound to this cartel and will participate?


I doubt that if NASL doesn't budge that a Korean team would stop a player from participating on their own just because on the whole they don't agree with NASL. In the end though it is funny, because if you've won anything in Korea that 1,500 (if you think you can win) is actually a wise investment.

16 Man Field
3 Days
1500 cost Travel + Board
Possible 50k First
And several decent runner up cash prizes
Travel Stipend + 1k?

Almost the equivalent of losing 3 days for the possibility of winning 50k in a relatively limited field of players.
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 09:45:07
August 13 2011 09:33 GMT
#557
On August 13 2011 18:20 NoobSkills wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 17:58 tdt wrote:
On August 13 2011 17:36 W2 wrote:
respect to White-Ra for paying 1500 for his plane ticket out of pocket, and not making even the slightest fuss about it. Makes these Koreans seem like whiny babies.

Not only whiny babies but unethical as well. When you sign a deal you abide by it not breach contract at the last minute as you try and put NASL over the barrel with threats of no show or pay up more than contract stipulates. That whole translation sounds weaselly IMO.

BTW - Anyone know what koreans are not bound to this cartel and will participate?


I doubt that if NASL doesn't budge that a Korean team would stop a player from participating on their own just because on the whole they don't agree with NASL. In the end though it is funny, because if you've won anything in Korea that 1,500 (if you think you can win) is actually a wise investment.

16 Man Field
3 Days
1500 cost Travel + Board
Possible 50k First
And several decent runner up cash prizes
Travel Stipend + 1k?

Almost the equivalent of losing 3 days for the possibility of winning 50k in a relatively limited field of players.



Yes I don't even understand NASL paying anything with 100K up for grabs. Every solo event I know of players pay their way. Tennis to boxing. But whatever. $1500 is generous.

As far as players being able to go out on thier own. I seriously doubt it without blessing from their team who they have a contract with. I have a feeling contracts would mean something to Koreans then if a player like MC decided to buck this ruling and go it alone.
MC for president
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
August 13 2011 10:46 GMT
#558
On August 13 2011 15:42 RedDragon571 wrote:
NASL failing in every way possible, somehow im not surprised. I think NASL is digging their own grave, the security deposit stuff is ridiculous.

i wonder how did you draw that conclusion from this OP
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
August 13 2011 10:53 GMT
#559
On August 13 2011 18:07 Tofugrinder wrote:
Good luck for them in season 2 maybe, they start changing stuff to head in the right direction in season 3 and this league might become an international Star league - but I personally think that NASL doesn't want this in the first place, because they seem to like having not the best players in the world, but "their" players. kinda stupid I think, but that should not be my problem, since there are lots of other tournaments elsewhere


This is how it was since the league was announced. All the barriers of entry pointed towards, "We don't want any dark horses or Koreans in our league." The only reason we saw them at all is due to community support for the effort, but NASL still drag their feet on the matter. It's hard to believe that 2 am for a START TIME can be considered "accommodating" for any player, or that travel expenses being spread evenly for all contestants can actually be considered fair. I would gladly watch a tournament with $40,000 first prize over $50,000 if it meant watching the best face off against one another. I don't care if they're Canadian, Korean, Czech, or from the goddamn north pole, traveling should not be a concern for championship rounds.
Benkestok
Profile Joined July 2010
Denmark63 Posts
August 13 2011 10:58 GMT
#560
Well, it sucks, i think we can agree on that. And the fact, that they are not comming will mean im not gonna watch the NASL. I presume alot will do the same, which is actully the really bad part in this mess.
toadyy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom179 Posts
August 13 2011 10:59 GMT
#561
Going to be so uninteresting to watch its just a bad version of IGN. Europeans are going to rape like in IGN and every other event, the same shit everyone has seen 100 times. Korean Star League turns into European Star League
Korlinni
Profile Joined April 2011
125 Posts
August 13 2011 11:02 GMT
#562
Not really fair to accommodate for a good playing time for koreans when the league is not based in korea. I stay up till 8am sometimes to watch the GSL. Why don't they go and do it at 5pm my time instead? Again, wouldn't like 8am KST have been a better choice for NASL to do. Unless 3pm PST is too late/early for them lol.
Impossible is a word to be found only in the dictionary of fools!
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
August 13 2011 11:10 GMT
#563
On August 13 2011 20:02 Korlinni wrote:
Not really fair to accommodate for a good playing time for koreans when the league is not based in korea. I stay up till 8am sometimes to watch the GSL. Why don't they go and do it at 5pm my time instead? Again, wouldn't like 8am KST have been a better choice for NASL to do. Unless 3pm PST is too late/early for them lol.


Accommodating for viewers is different than players. You don't need mental fortitude to watch GSL at 6 am, nor is anything on the line for you. They already do a decent job of scheduling foreigner matches in GSL around midnight CDT/CST.
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
August 13 2011 11:17 GMT
#564
On August 12 2011 16:18 Carush wrote:
meh i don't see why this is nasl's fault

international flights are absurdly expensive and it just kinda sucks that way :/


yep 1000 for every player is rly enough ... i mean sure koreans also have to pay their "own" money but with everyone at least get 1k they will make a +, and if you say "3 months and only a few dollar" well its the CHANCE not more not less.

ask puma i am sure he was confident with his price on NASL
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
two.watup
Profile Joined March 2011
United States371 Posts
August 13 2011 11:18 GMT
#565
This is the North American Starleague.

Koreans are guests.
Chenz
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden1197 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 11:31:32
August 13 2011 11:30 GMT
#566
I really don't understand why they can't let the Koreans play at reasonable times. A Korean player facing a US player? Play at 12:00 PM KST, which means the time is somewhere between 6:00 and 9:00 in the US. A Korean player facing a European player? Play at 9:00 PM KST, which means the time in Europe is about 12:00 PM.

Since the NASL isn't aired live, there really shouldn't be a problem accommodating things like this.
two.watup
Profile Joined March 2011
United States371 Posts
August 13 2011 11:40 GMT
#567
On August 13 2011 20:30 Chenz wrote:
I really don't understand why they can't let the Koreans play at reasonable times. A Korean player facing a US player? Play at 12:00 PM KST, which means the time is somewhere between 6:00 and 9:00 in the US. A Korean player facing a European player? Play at 9:00 PM KST, which means the time in Europe is about 12:00 PM.

Since the NASL isn't aired live, there really shouldn't be a problem accommodating things like this.

Korean time is 13 hours ahead of Eastern US, and 16 hours ahead of pacific.

NASL is casted and recorded Live, in studio. You're asking them to change their entire system, or stay until 8PM to start matches at a studio during the week. Imagine if your boss told you that you now start work at 8PM.

Korean vs Euro doesn't look like as much of a problem unless they go to sleep incredibly early.
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
August 13 2011 11:53 GMT
#568
On August 13 2011 20:40 two.watup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 20:30 Chenz wrote:
I really don't understand why they can't let the Koreans play at reasonable times. A Korean player facing a US player? Play at 12:00 PM KST, which means the time is somewhere between 6:00 and 9:00 in the US. A Korean player facing a European player? Play at 9:00 PM KST, which means the time in Europe is about 12:00 PM.

Since the NASL isn't aired live, there really shouldn't be a problem accommodating things like this.

Korean time is 13 hours ahead of Eastern US, and 16 hours ahead of pacific.

NASL is casted and recorded Live, in studio. You're asking them to change their entire system, or stay until 8PM to start matches at a studio during the week. Imagine if your boss told you that you now start work at 8PM.

Korean vs Euro doesn't look like as much of a problem unless they go to sleep incredibly early.


That's NASL's problem. It's their terrible format that causes the scheduling problems.

After watching s1, I really don't see the point in casting the matches 'live' anymore, when you're not broadcasting live anyhow. Just do it from replays and everyone wins. Players get to play at decent times, casters get to cast at decent times, and production will benefit from it (cast in sequence instead of spoiling match 2-3-4-5 in the first match of the night that for some reason was recorded last.).

NASL being casted 'live' doesn't add anything, it's just stupid at this point.
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
August 13 2011 11:55 GMT
#569
On August 13 2011 20:40 two.watup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 20:30 Chenz wrote:
I really don't understand why they can't let the Koreans play at reasonable times. A Korean player facing a US player? Play at 12:00 PM KST, which means the time is somewhere between 6:00 and 9:00 in the US. A Korean player facing a European player? Play at 9:00 PM KST, which means the time in Europe is about 12:00 PM.

Since the NASL isn't aired live, there really shouldn't be a problem accommodating things like this.

Korean time is 13 hours ahead of Eastern US, and 16 hours ahead of pacific.

NASL is casted and recorded Live, in studio. You're asking them to change their entire system, or stay until 8PM to start matches at a studio during the week. Imagine if your boss told you that you now start work at 8PM.

Korean vs Euro doesn't look like as much of a problem unless they go to sleep incredibly early.



that, and as far as i can remember, they had players from different regions mixed into each play-day
obviously meaning you cant have every bo1 at that same 12pm-4pm KST with all the other games coming after them on each and every week day
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
Chenz
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden1197 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 12:08:17
August 13 2011 12:05 GMT
#570
On August 13 2011 20:40 two.watup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 20:30 Chenz wrote:
I really don't understand why they can't let the Koreans play at reasonable times. A Korean player facing a US player? Play at 12:00 PM KST, which means the time is somewhere between 6:00 and 9:00 in the US. A Korean player facing a European player? Play at 9:00 PM KST, which means the time in Europe is about 12:00 PM.

Since the NASL isn't aired live, there really shouldn't be a problem accommodating things like this.

Korean time is 13 hours ahead of Eastern US, and 16 hours ahead of pacific.

NASL is casted and recorded Live, in studio. You're asking them to change their entire system, or stay until 8PM to start matches at a studio during the week. Imagine if your boss told you that you now start work at 8PM.

Korean vs Euro doesn't look like as much of a problem unless they go to sleep incredibly early.

Aye, my mistake on the time difference between the US and Korea, but it would still be possible. Changing from casting live and casting replays wouldn't be hard at all, and for us viewers it would be exactly the same as it is now, assuming the casters aren't aware of the results beforehand. If their current system isn't working, it's obvious changes has to be made.

On August 13 2011 20:55 nanaoei wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 20:40 two.watup wrote:
On August 13 2011 20:30 Chenz wrote:
I really don't understand why they can't let the Koreans play at reasonable times. A Korean player facing a US player? Play at 12:00 PM KST, which means the time is somewhere between 6:00 and 9:00 in the US. A Korean player facing a European player? Play at 9:00 PM KST, which means the time in Europe is about 12:00 PM.

Since the NASL isn't aired live, there really shouldn't be a problem accommodating things like this.

Korean time is 13 hours ahead of Eastern US, and 16 hours ahead of pacific.

NASL is casted and recorded Live, in studio. You're asking them to change their entire system, or stay until 8PM to start matches at a studio during the week. Imagine if your boss told you that you now start work at 8PM.

Korean vs Euro doesn't look like as much of a problem unless they go to sleep incredibly early.



that, and as far as i can remember, they had players from different regions mixed into each play-day
obviously meaning you cant have every bo1 at that same 12pm-4pm KST with all the other games coming after them on each and every week day


Matches from the same play-day aren't all recorded at the same day. Match 1 and 3 in group A might have been played Monday the week before, while match 2 might have been played Wednesday the week before. This is how they currently do it.
JesusOurSaviour
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
August 13 2011 12:09 GMT
#571
On August 12 2011 16:31 T0fuuu wrote:
Uh too much drama over this. Summary is. Some kr teams cant afford participating in NASL -> all teams threaten to withdraw from nasl if travel expenses arent paid -> NASL wont budge -> Kr teams withdraw then bitch online about the deposits and unfairness.

Just let the koreans stand by their decision and hopefully by season 3 when they realise puma has been paid and their deposits from season 1 returned, that they were silly to not paricipate in season 2 because now the prize is doubled and staying in the leaugue itself would of paid for itself.

This.

Money is all people want these days. $$$. A humble student like me just wants to watch Kr v Foreigners (rooting for foreigners to pull off huge upsets ofcourse ~~)

Yea two seasons later the Kr's will be regretting their decision. I see the US community a very viable market even without the Korean hype.
echO [W]
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1495 Posts
August 13 2011 12:21 GMT
#572
On August 13 2011 21:09 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:31 T0fuuu wrote:
Uh too much drama over this. Summary is. Some kr teams cant afford participating in NASL -> all teams threaten to withdraw from nasl if travel expenses arent paid -> NASL wont budge -> Kr teams withdraw then bitch online about the deposits and unfairness.

Just let the koreans stand by their decision and hopefully by season 3 when they realise puma has been paid and their deposits from season 1 returned, that they were silly to not paricipate in season 2 because now the prize is doubled and staying in the leaugue itself would of paid for itself.

This.

Money is all people want these days. $$$. A humble student like me just wants to watch Kr v Foreigners (rooting for foreigners to pull off huge upsets ofcourse ~~)

Yea two seasons later the Kr's will be regretting their decision. I see the US community a very viable market even without the Korean hype.

There is one more thing to this, the fact that some of the Koreans have signed contracts and are now breaking them.

It's one thing to complain and object to NASL, the league, it's practices, and it's requirements to play in the league, it's another thing to participate in qualifiers, and sign contracts and then back out at the last minute.
"Or a school bus over a bunch of kids" - Tasteless --- “A man's errors are his portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
Vinski
Profile Joined November 2010
505 Posts
August 13 2011 12:23 GMT
#573
On August 13 2011 20:17 CoR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:18 Carush wrote:
meh i don't see why this is nasl's fault

international flights are absurdly expensive and it just kinda sucks that way :/


yep 1000 for every player is rly enough ... i mean sure koreans also have to pay their "own" money but with everyone at least get 1k they will make a +, and if you say "3 months and only a few dollar" well its the CHANCE not more not less.

ask puma i am sure he was confident with his price on NASL


I agree entirely. I also agree with what someone else said earlier how about we pay them to come over and live in a flat for a few months like our players do to get into Code A which some aren't even in. You have to spend money to make money in this world and if you want to compete in the biggest tournaments you should not be asking them to pay for you to play in it. Even though Koreans are the best really seems bad of the teams to act like all of them will make it into the final 16. As much as I like having the best players face of against the best players and how that helps e-sports. But when people are trying to take of other people hurts e-sports more than best verse best would help.
"Sound is in a bad marriage, instead of divorcing her and keeping half your shit, he just committed suicide"
DjSpectre
Profile Joined February 2011
United States62 Posts
August 13 2011 13:27 GMT
#574
This is an american tournament, we run it as we see we need, flaws and all. If the Korean's didn't like it the first time, maybe they should have only sent 1 team the second time around instead of all of them. That way the cost is lower for them, NASL would be more willing to accomodate them and the Korean's could see what has improved since the last time. If it hasn't, then they've put an minimal investment, but if it has, then they can send a full force of teams in Season 3 and NASL might be less rigid. Plus more money will be present also.

Further, the times for the online qualifiers and such are in American times because this is in America. People here have lives and jobs too and running an event that's convenient for Korean's entirely alienates the events host country. I don't see any Korean tournaments catering to the U.S. times that are convenient, so what are they bitching about?
Consider that before you were alive, you were dead. After your life you will be dead. We spend more time being dead than alive. So don't waste your life.
Krehlmar
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1149 Posts
August 13 2011 13:30 GMT
#575
On August 13 2011 22:27 DjSpectre wrote:
This is an american tournament, we run it as we see we need, flaws and all. If the Korean's didn't like it the first time, maybe they should have only sent 1 team the second time around instead of all of them. That way the cost is lower for them, NASL would be more willing to accomodate them and the Korean's could see what has improved since the last time. If it hasn't, then they've put an minimal investment, but if it has, then they can send a full force of teams in Season 3 and NASL might be less rigid. Plus more money will be present also.

Further, the times for the online qualifiers and such are in American times because this is in America. People here have lives and jobs too and running an event that's convenient for Korean's entirely alienates the events host country. I don't see any Korean tournaments catering to the U.S. times that are convenient, so what are they bitching about?

Well you can go hug your flag mate, it won't bring viewers to your precious tournament either way and it won't live without those "bitching" koreans.
My Comment Doesnt Matter Because No One Reads It
DexVitality
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Hong Kong234 Posts
August 13 2011 13:40 GMT
#576
This situation is kind of tough for both parties.... I don't know if either side is right or wrong in the matter. They just both want whats best in their situation...

However I was kind of shocked when the article pointed out that players didnt get their security checks and prize money checks??? So has Puma gotten his money? or is it just a few players? This is pretty serious if any player didn't get their money back so I would think this is NASL's fault there.

I personally think that NASL providing the players with $2000 travel expenses seems fair to me though, I do not really like how the Koreans demand for full payment for the travel costs though, I do not feel that Korean's should get special treatment, if NASL were to provide full travel costs for Koreans what about the Europeans who will most likely pay the same amount to go themselves...
HkeSports: Tournament Coordinator Twitter: @DexVitalitY | Master League Protoss SC2 / Diamond LoL Player / Rank 6 HS Noobie
FunnelC4kes
Profile Joined July 2010
Ireland462 Posts
August 13 2011 13:49 GMT
#577
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.

2. 2 am Games... well, everybody brings this up. Yeah, a bit better than 4am games, but... some players last season were forced to wait 4 hours to play their games. This probably isn't a deal breaker, but for those who had to wait up all night, that leaves a bitter taste in their mouth. NASL could mediate times for players to play, and request replay 48 hours in advance of filming... or on a certain day of the week---like Friday the week before filming. Though I don't think this is a deal-breaker, but I could understand if this makes Koreans feel like their getting the short end of the stick.

But, NASL, despite having growing pains in the first season, was entertaining to watch. Casting got better through the season, production became much more stable (though quality of games were.... so so--until the FINALS! BEST GAMES EVAR!!!1!!).

I want the NASL to succeed, but doing some things differently is not always a step in the right direction. Just my 2 cents.

I'm willing to bet if NASL asked SK managers "what would it take to get your players into our league?" these two points would likely come up.

Cheers, and Good luck on another successful season!
Scholar. Shaman. Starcraft Enthusiast.
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 13:57:26
August 13 2011 13:55 GMT
#578
On August 13 2011 22:40 DexVitality wrote:However I was kind of shocked when the article pointed out that players didnt get their security checks and prize money checks??? So has Puma gotten his money? or is it just a few players? This is pretty serious if any player didn't get their money back so I would think this is NASL's fault there.


Some teams, wemadeFOX for example, have gotten their deposits other haven't. It was agreed that they would pay the money within two months and they will keep that promise. I don't know why the Koreans are crying about this now, two months haven't passed yet.

Know that it takes some time for all tournaments to pay the price money, there's nothing odd about it. It can take some months like with GSL, MLG, Dreamhack(afaik) or even years like with IEM.
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
August 13 2011 14:02 GMT
#579
On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.


Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
August 13 2011 14:18 GMT
#580
On August 13 2011 22:30 Krehlmar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 22:27 DjSpectre wrote:
This is an american tournament, we run it as we see we need, flaws and all. If the Korean's didn't like it the first time, maybe they should have only sent 1 team the second time around instead of all of them. That way the cost is lower for them, NASL would be more willing to accomodate them and the Korean's could see what has improved since the last time. If it hasn't, then they've put an minimal investment, but if it has, then they can send a full force of teams in Season 3 and NASL might be less rigid. Plus more money will be present also.

Further, the times for the online qualifiers and such are in American times because this is in America. People here have lives and jobs too and running an event that's convenient for Korean's entirely alienates the events host country. I don't see any Korean tournaments catering to the U.S. times that are convenient, so what are they bitching about?

Well you can go hug your flag mate, it won't bring viewers to your precious tournament either way and it won't live without those "bitching" koreans.


It'll get lots of viewers when Idra plays, at least.

To be honest the exodus of the Koreans now opens up something new for us to pay attention to: how does their absence affect viewers, if it all?

I seem to recall the average broadcast hit 8-10k (bit less than Idra or Destiny's streams), and the finals were way up.

MLG certainly believed the presence of the Koreans brought in enough money to justify the effort to get them over. Maybe NASL will come to the same conclusion?
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
Goibon
Profile Joined May 2010
New Zealand8185 Posts
August 13 2011 14:20 GMT
#581
A whole lot of he said she said.

To me it still boils down to "this is too difficult for us, so we don't wanna do it no more", which is a fair concern. Online tournaments are very difficult, and we're just not in a place right now where the challenges here can be alleviated. The root of the problem is the same as the EG team thing & Liquid. Rock and a hard place.

Also i don't trust either party enough to take a side on the payment issue or any other issue for that matter. SC2Con definitely comes across as whiny here but i don't really care what they think at this point.

bleh

GL everyone -_-
Leenock =^_^= Ryung =^_^= Parting =^_^= herO =^_^= Guilty
FunnelC4kes
Profile Joined July 2010
Ireland462 Posts
August 13 2011 14:22 GMT
#582
On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.


Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.

If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment.

There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format.

NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive.
Scholar. Shaman. Starcraft Enthusiast.
tooPrime
Profile Joined March 2011
United States245 Posts
August 13 2011 14:26 GMT
#583
On August 13 2011 20:53 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 20:40 two.watup wrote:
On August 13 2011 20:30 Chenz wrote:
I really don't understand why they can't let the Koreans play at reasonable times. A Korean player facing a US player? Play at 12:00 PM KST, which means the time is somewhere between 6:00 and 9:00 in the US. A Korean player facing a European player? Play at 9:00 PM KST, which means the time in Europe is about 12:00 PM.

Since the NASL isn't aired live, there really shouldn't be a problem accommodating things like this.

Korean time is 13 hours ahead of Eastern US, and 16 hours ahead of pacific.

NASL is casted and recorded Live, in studio. You're asking them to change their entire system, or stay until 8PM to start matches at a studio during the week. Imagine if your boss told you that you now start work at 8PM.

Korean vs Euro doesn't look like as much of a problem unless they go to sleep incredibly early.


That's NASL's problem. It's their terrible format that causes the scheduling problems.

After watching s1, I really don't see the point in casting the matches 'live' anymore, when you're not broadcasting live anyhow. Just do it from replays and everyone wins. Players get to play at decent times, casters get to cast at decent times, and production will benefit from it (cast in sequence instead of spoiling match 2-3-4-5 in the first match of the night that for some reason was recorded last.).

NASL being casted 'live' doesn't add anything, it's just stupid at this point.

I like it casted live. Replays are screwed up, get out of sync, and sometimes both players can't recover their replays.
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
August 13 2011 14:52 GMT
#584
On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:
On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.


Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work..


In fairness, the problem wasn't the schedule, it was that Painuser didn't bother to TELL them he couldn't attend, leaving his opponents waiting, often at silly hours of the day, to play with someone who never intended to turn up.
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
BWILLdur
Profile Joined October 2010
United States100 Posts
August 13 2011 14:54 GMT
#585
It's a real shame Korean players basically get caged by SC2Con and put in this traveling circus where SC2Con decides where and when they get to play.

I don't think PuMa is complaining about NASL's grand final costs.

When did we get into the mindset of entitlement to travel expenses, hotel expenses and food. Isn't this exactly the purpose of the TEAM, to fund the teams travel so they can get out and spread the name of their sponsors?

Does Dreamhack pay for everyone to fly in? Gamescon? IEM? WCG? It's not the tournament promoters job to fly all the talent in. Their teams should say, hey MVP can win IEM, lets send him, win the thing and get our team name out there. If a team doesn't want to participate in NASL that's fine, the schedule is insane and so is the lag. But let the teams an players decide. If some darkhorse on OGS wants to play, let him.
FunnelC4kes
Profile Joined July 2010
Ireland462 Posts
August 13 2011 15:03 GMT
#586
On August 13 2011 23:52 iamthedave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:
On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:
On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.


Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work..


In fairness, the problem wasn't the schedule, it was that Painuser didn't bother to TELL them he couldn't attend, leaving his opponents waiting, often at silly hours of the day, to play with someone who never intended to turn up.


50 players, 1 bad seed. That sounds like an outlier, to me. I don't think they should base their policy on one guy with lack of communication. That's a bit silly.
Scholar. Shaman. Starcraft Enthusiast.
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 15:07:54
August 13 2011 15:05 GMT
#587
On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:
On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.


Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.

If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment.

There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format.

NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive.


Yeah NASL could rework things, in effect, start casting replays, but that has it's pros and cons aswell. It would be better for the players but the production team would have to deal with sync issues in addition to a raging community.

A reduction in prize money would not really work the way the prize distibution is set up. Someone like PU in S1 was never close to seeing any money, there would be nothing stopping a player who started out 0-4 or 0-5 to just stop "wasting" his time. These 0-5 players would have no reason(other than moral ones) to play the season through.

In the end though it's all up to the players. If they dislike the format, they are free to decline the invitation, but once they've accepted the spot and signed the contract they should make damn sure they turn up for their games. Or accept a fine if they prioritize other things over the league. But counting on players good-hearted nature and outstanding morality is naive, which season 1 proved.
Corrupted
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1255 Posts
August 13 2011 15:10 GMT
#588
In the end, this is probably the best thing for the NASL. Every tournament doesn't have to have the very best players to be interesting. Several Euro tournaments have been fantastic without having a single Korean. As long as NASL learns from last season and continues to improve, it can be a great tournament.
"MarineKing rolling double sevens there" -Artosis
akalarry
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1978 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 15:31:20
August 13 2011 15:20 GMT
#589
honestly, i think nasl needs to rework it's tournament format, and almost everything about it. (no saying what the koreans did was right). if boxer doesn't want to come back, then there's probably something that has to be fixed.

why such a big first prize? you're giving it to 1 person, who probably isn't putting it back into the sc2 scene. let's say first prize is 50k (i'm not sure, but probably somewhere around mid-high 5 figures). I'm pretty sure that everyone would still play in NASL if first prize was 30 grand. Rework the prize distribution too, so that people further down the placing gets more money. See that's around 10-20 thousand dollars they can spend on advertisement, good PRODUCTION, and subsidizing travel costs. The perfect definition of NASL season 1 was amateur. Everything about it seemed like it was done by some noob. They should spend more money (or make use of it) to make their production up to par with the likes of GSL, MLG...etc

Also grand finals tournament structure needs to be fixed SO badly. boxer comes to california, getting knocked out by MC in a best of 3. Well, now what? Such a waste of time for a lot of these players. Ret comes from the netherlands, only to play one best of 3 and then gets to sit idly for the next few days.

For the security deposit, 500 dollars per person is a lot for a team. If team PRIME wants 5 of their players to participate in the tournament, then they have to fork up 2500 dollars up front. Thats not chump change, and they dont get it back for 5 months. Why would their sponsors (a korean chicken restaurant) want to pay for it? It's not like it'll help sales in Korea, when they can spend money sponsoring them for the GSL.

In addition, let the koreans play at much better time. it's even uncessary for them to play at 2 am. Is the reason REALLY so that the casters can cast them live? Who the fuck cares? Just cast them off replays and make everyone happy. I honestly doubt that viewers will care, let alone notice. To us, it's not even live anyways.


Americans can play at 8 am, koreans play at 12 am.

Even better, Americans can play at 8 PM, and koreans play at 12 PM.

10 PM for Americans (sounds perfect) and 2 pm for koreans
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
August 13 2011 15:26 GMT
#590
To me the deposit issue is a simple solution.

What I would do is instead of requiring a deposit, instead just make a "reward" system and go the other direction. For every BO3 a player attends on time, doesn't skip or miss, they get $20.

If a player attends every BO3, he'll get $180 at the end of the season. This means all players would walk away with something to show for their time. If a player misses his BO3, he forfeits his $20 and that $20 goes to the player he was suppose to play to compensate for getting up early/adjusting their schedule and having the person not show up.

It would cause a reduction in the prize pool to do that because you'd have to use that money, but then every player would win money for being a part of the league, you wouldn't need a deposit up front, and there would be the incentive to play your matches because you get something for your time. Play all your matches get a walk over or two and all the sudden you have $240 which can go toward hotel/travel costs.
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
August 13 2011 16:24 GMT
#591
On August 13 2011 15:26 Primadog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 14:20 DystopiaX wrote:
On August 13 2011 13:53 tdt wrote:
The koreans or those who represent them sound like a bunch of Prima donnas. I never heard any foreigners whining about this and they made way less money usually dropping out by RO16.

Sad. Have to support foreigner tournaments more from now on.

Foreigners don't have to pay over a thousand dollars for plane tickets to California alone; their expenses are way lower and they have way more money in sponsorships, etc. to pay for those plane tickets. Many Korean teams are in a tough spot financially and have to pay susbstantially more to make the playoffs; the reason they're complaining and the foreign players aren't is cause their situations are completely different.



White-Ra's ticket cost 1,500 round trip, and because of the duckload.com mess, he paid it out of pocket.



And there was not a peep from White-Ra and he still seems to be more than willing to return.

And honestly, like I said in the other thread, if Koreans are in that bad of a shape money wise, they should be participating in every major tournament they can get hands on, especially foreign ones. Foreign tournaments = foreign sponsors, so if Korea is lacking sponsors, get foreign ones!

It makes ZERO sense not to participate. Yes, they *may* still have some costs to cover, but with NASL stipends, the cost is so minor and the payback so great (prize money, exposure, potential sponsorship opportunities), that if you are a good manager and thinking long-term, you would see the benefits and jump right on it.
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 16:31:36
August 13 2011 16:26 GMT
#592
On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.





Actually, bringing up PainUser just proves progamers can't be trusted. NASL repeatedly said if PainUSer had just told them a day in advance that he cant make it they would be more than willing to reschedule his match. He repeatedly failed showed up with zero warning, and even promised he would show up on time and was still late and only made it cause NASL caught him on Team Liquid and asked him why he's not at his scheduled match.
templar rage
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2509 Posts
August 13 2011 16:33 GMT
#593
If you don't like the format of a tournament, don't sign up for it. By accepting their invitations, every player agreed to the rules and format of the league. I assume Koreans can compute a time zone difference and know beforehand what times their matches end up at just like everyone else. If you don't like the prospect of waking up at 4am once a week to play a match, then don't do it. Tbh, it's not a big deal to do so, especially considering what you're playing for, but I understand if you don't want to do it.
Warpath
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1242 Posts
August 13 2011 16:33 GMT
#594
A lot of korean arguments are pretty stupid =\ I was never a fan of waking up at 4am to watch Brood War, but i adjusted my schedule so I could. I know playing the game is a little different than spectating but that's a pretty bad reason to withdraw from a league.

Looking at it from a whole, all these arguments can be replicated from the foreigner->Kor scene, but we don't complain because Korea has the luxury of people the place to go for E-Sports
Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
August 13 2011 16:33 GMT
#595
On August 14 2011 01:26 whateverpeeps wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.





Actually, bringing up PainUser just proves progamers can't be trusted. NASL repeatedly said if PainUSer had just told them a day in advance that he cant make it they would be more than willing to reschedule his match. He repeatedly failed showed up with zero warning, and even promised he would show up on time and was still late and only made it cause NASL caught him on Team Liquid and asked him why he's not at his scheduled match.


The NASL schedule is such that games are played in a 4 hour window. The start time of each match is decided beforehand and players are emailed exactly what it is before the match starts. I.E. players will know that their match will start at 12:15 pm EST, so they can know when to take their lunch break, etc.
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
August 13 2011 16:48 GMT
#596
On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:
On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.


Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.

If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment.

There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format.

NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive.



the whole problem appears to stem from their need to cast live. i dont think anyone with their head on straight minds replays and using the same logic of its ok to cast live then stream the recording, its completely ok to cast from the replays too.

nasl dug their own ditch on the schedule problems but thats not really relevent. everyone knew what they were getting into when they signed up, it wasnt a secret.
last.resistance
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada543 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 16:53:56
August 13 2011 16:53 GMT
#597
On August 14 2011 01:48 turdburgler wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:
On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.


Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.

If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment.

There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format.

NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive.



the whole problem appears to stem from their need to cast live. i dont think anyone with their head on straight minds replays and using the same logic of its ok to cast live then stream the recording, its completely ok to cast from the replays too.

nasl dug their own ditch on the schedule problems but thats not really relevent. everyone knew what they were getting into when they signed up, it wasnt a secret.


Casting from replays opens up to the casters getting out of synch, like we saw with the EG Master's Cup this week with Painuser getting out of synch with DJ Wheat and ultimately having to switch computers to continue the cast.
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 17:10:46
August 13 2011 17:10 GMT
#598
Koreans asking for too much this time around. They already have the sweet end of the deal.

Code A winnings versus NASL? Yeah thats a no brainer.

Everyone should know ESPORTS dollars take most of a year to process.

I am glad NASL put its foot down, good on you.
twitch.tv/medrea
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
August 13 2011 17:17 GMT
#599
I'm quite curious as to why this needed action from SC2Con. I mean, Dreamhack doesn't pay a penny, neither does Assembly, but you don't see SC2Con keeping their players from entering those tournaments. In what way is NASL different? Sure the format differs but if a team can afford it then great, if they can't, too bad. I don't see why SC2Con had to step in and prohibit all their teams and players from participating. Moon for an example would have no issues with 'just' a $2000 travel stipend.

So why NASL and not Dreamhack?
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
August 13 2011 17:18 GMT
#600
Plus casting off replays really puts it on the players to contact each other and organize their own match times too, if you are casting off replays to help avoid the walk-over/time issues. So that is a pain for players as well to work through language issues etc. to figure out times for 2 months worth of BO3.

I'd think for the players it would be much easier to know, "for the next 2 months every Tuesday I have to be in this channel at this time and will take up 2 hours." That is to me consistent. These are pro-gamers, i don't see how it is unreasonable to manage your schedule based around that idea of doing your job basically.

I have a job, and my schedule requires me to wake up at 4 and 5AM at times too. Do I like it? No. But it isn't like I have a choice. I have a friend who has to close the store he works at every other Saturday and is there till like 3 or 4AM on a Saturday night. Does he like that? No. But it is his job.

To me, regardless of NASL production, or the time you have to wake up, or the deposit issues, there are like 4-5 opportunities to win this kind of money in SC2 at the moment. To pass up on that chance because of issues that you could suck up and work around to me seems crazy.

I guess I just see it as basically(assuming I was a top pro gamer that could realistically win this thing) :
Scrounge up $500 bucks that will be returned.
Wake up once a week at a weird time to play 1 BO3 for 9 weeks.
Take a trip to California where most of my expenses will be covered, with some slight out of pocket money needed.
To get a shot at a slice of 100k. I mean when you put that down on paper, does it really seem that crazy? I mean... I'd like that better than trying to jump through the hoops that are Code B/A/S GSL tournaments where you could get knocked down from Code S with one bad draw and maybe never get back in again.

I know these issues exist w/ NASL, I acknowledge the Korean point of view no doubt, it is certainly valid. But the players have to be kicking themselves knowing that this is one of the most attainable paydays out there for those that were going to be involved with it. I just don't see how a Korean who feels he is a top gamer in the world passes at a shot at this money....

And as one last side note, seeing how all these Korean teams are hurting for cash, why not make an agreement going into the NASL that perhaps all the winnings the Koreans make that are in this SC2Con get pooled and divided up amongst the teams? Maybe 50% divided up amongst all the Koreans, and 50% divided up amongst the teams. You'd assume they are going to walk away with a nice chunk of that 100k, that could be used to get some cash flow into each team if they are hurting as bad as they seem to be. Just a thought there...They already united and decided not to attend, don't see why they couldn't unite and just split the winnings.
Iberville
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada207 Posts
August 13 2011 17:51 GMT
#601
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the NASL didn't pay for air fare. Nothing by the NASL concerning this makes sense and they are in the wrong imho.

That being said, players complaining about waking up at 4 AM can chose not to play in the NASL. Their choice.

I do feel the low amount of support that the NASL gives to the players is going to bite them back hard. They will not win the PR war, that's for sure.
I promise not to make a tasteless joke.
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
August 13 2011 17:53 GMT
#602
On August 14 2011 02:51 Iberville wrote:
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the NASL didn't pay for air fare. Nothing by the NASL concerning this makes sense and they are in the wrong imho.

That being said, players complaining about waking up at 4 AM can chose not to play in the NASL. Their choice.

I do feel the low amount of support that the NASL gives to the players is going to bite them back hard. They will not win the PR war, that's for sure.


Did you read? The Koreans were going to get $2000 upfront for expenses. Actual costs provided by NASL from season 1 show that this was enough. The Koreans were going to have their airfare, ground travel, and hotel costs payed for.
Moderator
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
August 13 2011 17:56 GMT
#603
On August 14 2011 02:51 Iberville wrote:
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the NASL didn't pay for air fare. Nothing by the NASL concerning this makes sense and they are in the wrong imho.

That being said, players complaining about waking up at 4 AM can chose not to play in the NASL. Their choice.

I do feel the low amount of support that the NASL gives to the players is going to bite them back hard. They will not win the PR war, that's for sure.



Try to read the OP a little bit more.

Then compare it to events like dreamhack and such where much less support is garnered anyway.
twitch.tv/medrea
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
August 13 2011 17:57 GMT
#604
On August 14 2011 01:53 last.resistance wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 01:48 turdburgler wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:
On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.


Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.

If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment.

There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format.

NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive.



the whole problem appears to stem from their need to cast live. i dont think anyone with their head on straight minds replays and using the same logic of its ok to cast live then stream the recording, its completely ok to cast from the replays too.

nasl dug their own ditch on the schedule problems but thats not really relevent. everyone knew what they were getting into when they signed up, it wasnt a secret.


Casting from replays opens up to the casters getting out of synch, like we saw with the EG Master's Cup this week with Painuser getting out of synch with DJ Wheat and ultimately having to switch computers to continue the cast.


they are sitting in the same room and able to see each others screens

R1CH even developed a program to sync replays that was used in the TSL
Chickenlegs
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden451 Posts
August 13 2011 17:57 GMT
#605
As many people have stated before me, 1000 $ was the amount given, they added the extra 1k $ from the koreans own winnings as an offer to pay, meaning you would still pay half from your own pocket if you loose in the first round.

Then add the 500 $ dollar per player they have to pay beforehand when they are in an economic struggle it hardly feels worth it.
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
August 13 2011 18:39 GMT
#606
On August 14 2011 02:57 turdburgler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 01:53 last.resistance wrote:
On August 14 2011 01:48 turdburgler wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:
On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.


Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.

If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment.

There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format.

NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive.



the whole problem appears to stem from their need to cast live. i dont think anyone with their head on straight minds replays and using the same logic of its ok to cast live then stream the recording, its completely ok to cast from the replays too.

nasl dug their own ditch on the schedule problems but thats not really relevent. everyone knew what they were getting into when they signed up, it wasnt a secret.


Casting from replays opens up to the casters getting out of synch, like we saw with the EG Master's Cup this week with Painuser getting out of synch with DJ Wheat and ultimately having to switch computers to continue the cast.


they are sitting in the same room and able to see each others screens

R1CH even developed a program to sync replays that was used in the TSL


The sync program is good, but not perfect. And 2 people obsing on one computer isn't that good as you are going to miss even more attacks.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
Vul
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States685 Posts
August 13 2011 19:30 GMT
#607
I don't understand why they just didn't take 16,000$ out of the overall prize pool and give every player an extra $1000 towards travel expenses in addition to what they're already doing. Wouldn't an extra 1k be enough? Maybe the winning player makes $40,000 instead of $50,000, and so on, but that's better than the tournament being essentially neutered.
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 19:34:05
August 13 2011 19:33 GMT
#608
On August 14 2011 04:30 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why they just didn't take 16,000$ out of the overall prize pool and give every player an extra $1000 towards travel expenses in addition to what they're already doing. Wouldn't an extra 1k be enough? Maybe the winning player makes $40,000 instead of $50,000, and so on, but that's better than the tournament being essentially neutered.


And reducing the prize pool is fair to all the non-koreans? You can't say you have xx prize pool, and then after everyone agrees, change it because one party decided it didn't like the rules after the fact.
Moderator
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
August 13 2011 19:35 GMT
#609
On August 14 2011 03:39 jmbthirteen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 02:57 turdburgler wrote:
On August 14 2011 01:53 last.resistance wrote:
On August 14 2011 01:48 turdburgler wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 13 2011 23:22 FunnelC4kes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 23:02 Longshank wrote:
On August 13 2011 22:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
I really can't help but think that there is two big hurdles:

1. $500 deposit: There is no other league that asks for a deposit. Saying it is for accountability is a bit of a blow to the pride of the teams. You're effectively saying you don't trust them. Whether you mean it like that is beside the question. Sure, you pay a deposit when you rent a property (car, room, house), but an appointment is not the same. You could say "hey, if you miss your games, we'll apply a penalty of $XX to any possible winnings." Problem solved. $500 is a lot of money, as well, especially if what they say about lack of sponsorship is true. That's quite a burden.


Well to be frank, season 1 proved that progamers can't be trusted. Painuser didn't care for showing up for his games and White-Ra forgetting/decided to go partying instead, just to name a few. If you can't trust Sir MannerToss then who can you trust?


That is a good point, however your claim that "progamers can't be trusted" is flawed, because the rigidity of the format plays a large role.

According to PainUser's statements, the inflexibility of NASL's format meant he would have had to take a four-hour work break or be on call to take probably an hour break. That doesn't work.

If White-Ra was able to compromise a time to play his game, he would not have had a schedule conflict. I don't recall seeing an official statement from White-Ra explaining his missed game, so I can neither verify nor disclaim that statement. Either way, walk-over with a prize deduction/penalty points would have been a suitable punishment.

There were other games that were missed, including a few of Fenix' and Nani's games, due to schedule conflicts with other major tournaments. This, too, would be avoided with a less rigid format.

NASL should be concerned with walk-overs, it loses production value for their casts. However a $500 deposit is overly punitive.



the whole problem appears to stem from their need to cast live. i dont think anyone with their head on straight minds replays and using the same logic of its ok to cast live then stream the recording, its completely ok to cast from the replays too.

nasl dug their own ditch on the schedule problems but thats not really relevent. everyone knew what they were getting into when they signed up, it wasnt a secret.


Casting from replays opens up to the casters getting out of synch, like we saw with the EG Master's Cup this week with Painuser getting out of synch with DJ Wheat and ultimately having to switch computers to continue the cast.


they are sitting in the same room and able to see each others screens

R1CH even developed a program to sync replays that was used in the TSL


The sync program is good, but not perfect. And 2 people obsing on one computer isn't that good as you are going to miss even more attacks.


this is getting so off topic but ill continue to reply i guess ; / they wouldnt need 1 pc, they could just catch up the computer that isnt recording the vod using pause or x2 often.

they wouldnt be streaming it live either so they would have time to edit and redo it if mistakes are made.
Dracid
Profile Joined December 2009
United States280 Posts
August 13 2011 19:36 GMT
#610
Regardless of who's to blame for the situation, I'm not sure this is a good business decision on the part of NASL.

SC2Con clearly thinks that they have leverage over NASL here, and to be honest I think they're right. Without Koreans NASL will lose viewers and subscribers; a significant amount if I'm not mistaken. Even if they are morally correct, I wonder if the loss in revenue would be enough to offset what it would've cost them to agree to the Koreans' demands in the first place.
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
August 13 2011 19:42 GMT
#611
A question for Xeris; Are you posting a reply in Korean for the Korean community? It seems to me that this TIG article is so full of errors(if what you say about deposits is correct) that a reply is warrented. It could also be worth mentioning the signing of contracts and whatnot.
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 20:09:14
August 13 2011 20:09 GMT
#612
On August 14 2011 04:36 Dracid wrote:
Regardless of who's to blame for the situation, I'm not sure this is a good business decision on the part of NASL.

SC2Con clearly thinks that they have leverage over NASL here, and to be honest I think they're right. Without Koreans NASL will lose viewers and subscribers; a significant amount if I'm not mistaken. Even if they are morally correct, I wonder if the loss in revenue would be enough to offset what it would've cost them to agree to the Koreans' demands in the first place.



But don't you think that by giving into SC2Con's demands, it PROVES to them that they have leverage over NASL? So what makes you think their demands will stay the same? What makes you think that tomorrow they won't be demanding business class tickets and 5 start hotels?

I'm not saying they would, but what I am saying is that they could, and are encouraged to if NASL doesn't make a stand.

Also, can NASL afford their demands even if they wanted to? If IPL is losing money and MLG is barely making it, what makes people think NASL is rolling in dough?
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
August 13 2011 20:11 GMT
#613
On August 14 2011 04:30 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why they just didn't take 16,000$ out of the overall prize pool and give every player an extra $1000 towards travel expenses in addition to what they're already doing. Wouldn't an extra 1k be enough? Maybe the winning player makes $40,000 instead of $50,000, and so on, but that's better than the tournament being essentially neutered.


Well, because, there's 30 other players in the league who have signed contracts saying that there will be a 100,000 prize pool. For NASL to do that would mean breaching 30 of their own contracts. I think it's neither fair nor professional to do that.
Soma.bokforlag
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden448 Posts
August 13 2011 20:13 GMT
#614
i really thought NASL was handling things badly during season 1, but they have my full support in this question. the way the korean teams have acted are not professional at all
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 20:15:19
August 13 2011 20:14 GMT
#615
On August 14 2011 02:17 Longshank wrote:


So why NASL and not Dreamhack?



That's the million dollar question. That's why I'm still on these forums, waiting for some answer from SC2Con...all I want to know is why and what their logic is, because at the moment, it doesn't seem to make sense.

All I see right now is either a committee who is looking out after their players but is thinking short-term, or a committee who saw a chance to hard-ball and failed.

I hope neither of those is true, because if it is, then my respect for Korean management plummets and I will support every major Korean player to sign with foreign teams asap.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
August 13 2011 20:18 GMT
#616
On August 14 2011 02:56 Medrea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 02:51 Iberville wrote:
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the NASL didn't pay for air fare. Nothing by the NASL concerning this makes sense and they are in the wrong imho.

That being said, players complaining about waking up at 4 AM can chose not to play in the NASL. Their choice.

I do feel the low amount of support that the NASL gives to the players is going to bite them back hard. They will not win the PR war, that's for sure.



Try to read the OP a little bit more.

Then compare it to events like dreamhack and such where much less support is garnered anyway.


They don't have the possibility of sending 16 Koreans to Dreamhack etc. When it's a real possibility that a large number of your players could have to go to the US, you want that cost covered. NASL offered a 60 day lag of $2000. Let me know when you find an airline and hotel that will take their payment up to 60 days after the service.
Vul
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States685 Posts
August 13 2011 20:23 GMT
#617
On August 14 2011 04:33 Myles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 04:30 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why they just didn't take 16,000$ out of the overall prize pool and give every player an extra $1000 towards travel expenses in addition to what they're already doing. Wouldn't an extra 1k be enough? Maybe the winning player makes $40,000 instead of $50,000, and so on, but that's better than the tournament being essentially neutered.


And reducing the prize pool is fair to all the non-koreans? You can't say you have xx prize pool, and then after everyone agrees, change it because one party decided it didn't like the rules after the fact.


Who decides what's fair? Is it fair that people bought passes to watch this league, thinking that Koreans from Korean teams would be there, but they won't be? Is it fair that it will cost S. Koreans more to come to this tournament than it would a US player, despite the fact that almost all of the good play is in Korea?

A lot of things are unfair, that's how the world is.

And it's not one party, I just checked and it looks like it's about 16 parties, which is a good amount of the league. Those 16 parties bring quite a lot of viewers to this tournament. So I guess you can do what seems fair, whatever you think that means, or you can put on a great tournament.



Vul
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States685 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 20:31:35
August 13 2011 20:29 GMT
#618
On August 14 2011 05:11 whateverpeeps wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 04:30 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why they just didn't take 16,000$ out of the overall prize pool and give every player an extra $1000 towards travel expenses in addition to what they're already doing. Wouldn't an extra 1k be enough? Maybe the winning player makes $40,000 instead of $50,000, and so on, but that's better than the tournament being essentially neutered.


Well, because, there's 30 other players in the league who have signed contracts saying that there will be a 100,000 prize pool. For NASL to do that would mean breaching 30 of their own contracts. I think it's neither fair nor professional to do that.


Okay, well if they state the exact amount of the prize pool in the contracts then I'm sure they could renegotiate. And I never said that they should only give travel money to the Koreans, what they could do is give it to everyone in the RO16, like a prize, but make the overall prize pool somewhat smaller.

It honestly seems really simple: Increase the prize for making it to the RO16, so that everyone can afford to come, but reduce some of the later prizes in order to afford it. I don't know why they don't do that anyway, since its such a global event.
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
August 13 2011 20:30 GMT
#619
On August 14 2011 05:18 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 02:56 Medrea wrote:
On August 14 2011 02:51 Iberville wrote:
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the NASL didn't pay for air fare. Nothing by the NASL concerning this makes sense and they are in the wrong imho.

That being said, players complaining about waking up at 4 AM can chose not to play in the NASL. Their choice.

I do feel the low amount of support that the NASL gives to the players is going to bite them back hard. They will not win the PR war, that's for sure.



Try to read the OP a little bit more.

Then compare it to events like dreamhack and such where much less support is garnered anyway.


They don't have the possibility of sending 16 Koreans to Dreamhack etc. When it's a real possibility that a large number of your players could have to go to the US, you want that cost covered. NASL offered a 60 day lag of $2000. Let me know when you find an airline and hotel that will take their payment up to 60 days after the service.


I think that's just the cost of admission at that point though.
twitch.tv/medrea
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
August 13 2011 20:32 GMT
#620
On August 14 2011 05:18 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 02:56 Medrea wrote:
On August 14 2011 02:51 Iberville wrote:
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the NASL didn't pay for air fare. Nothing by the NASL concerning this makes sense and they are in the wrong imho.

That being said, players complaining about waking up at 4 AM can chose not to play in the NASL. Their choice.

I do feel the low amount of support that the NASL gives to the players is going to bite them back hard. They will not win the PR war, that's for sure.



Try to read the OP a little bit more.

Then compare it to events like dreamhack and such where much less support is garnered anyway.


NASL offered a 60 day lag of $2000. Let me know when you find an airline and hotel that will take their payment up to 60 days after the service.



Where did you get this information from? It's 60 day lag for refunding season 1 security deposits and giving prize money (which is really short).

I didn't read anything about 60 day lag for the travel expenses.
Vei
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2845 Posts
August 13 2011 20:39 GMT
#621
Korea is really shooting themselves in the foot. All they fucking have is the GSL, they need to branch out.
www.justin.tv/veisc2 ~ 720p + commentary
Grr Arr Rawr
Profile Joined April 2011
United States108 Posts
August 13 2011 20:40 GMT
#622
On August 14 2011 05:18 aksfjh wrote:

They don't have the possibility of sending 16 Koreans to Dreamhack etc. When it's a real possibility that a large number of your players could have to go to the US, you want that cost covered.


I really don't understand why people keep saying shit like this. Korean teams are under no obligation to put half their roster in the tournament. What happened to teams using internal rank points to determine wich guy gets to go to a tournament?
You can't rhyme against the dark side of the Force, why even bother? So many dudes been with your mom, who even KNOWS if I'm your father!
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 20:44:45
August 13 2011 20:43 GMT
#623
On August 14 2011 05:18 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 02:56 Medrea wrote:
On August 14 2011 02:51 Iberville wrote:
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the NASL didn't pay for air fare. Nothing by the NASL concerning this makes sense and they are in the wrong imho.

That being said, players complaining about waking up at 4 AM can chose not to play in the NASL. Their choice.

I do feel the low amount of support that the NASL gives to the players is going to bite them back hard. They will not win the PR war, that's for sure.



Try to read the OP a little bit more.

Then compare it to events like dreamhack and such where much less support is garnered anyway.


They don't have the possibility of sending 16 Koreans to Dreamhack etc. When it's a real possibility that a large number of your players could have to go to the US, you want that cost covered. NASL offered a 60 day lag of $2000. Let me know when you find an airline and hotel that will take their payment up to 60 days after the service.


They have the possibility to send 30 players to Dreamhack. They can't afford it of course and it's not worth it, but in theory they do. Why do they expect to be allowed to send 16 people to NASL if they can't afford it?

Don't sign up for shit you don't have funds to participate in. Sign up one player if that's what your budget allows.
Grimmyman123
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada939 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 22:37:31
August 13 2011 22:37 GMT
#624
A disappointment really that the Korean players/teams couldn't make if financially feasible.

Ultimately, if an organization comes forth, puts up a massive cash prize pool - and all I have to do it show up and play my A game to take a piece of it, you bet I'll make it to the matches.

Further, I specifically recall a condition that NASL made that in order to enter, you MUST commit in advance to a personal appearance for the grand finals. So this was known in advance to online group play.

I feel, that if NASL makes the tournament, puts up the money, obtains venue, filming, logistics etc etc etc - it is the Teams and the players responsibility to get to the venue etc if they want their chance at that prize pool. It should NOT be NASL's financial problem to pay for travel and lodgings of out of country or out of region players.

The fact that NASL came forward and offered funds, in my opinion, is above and beyond what they are required to do, or what the players feel they are entitled to.

A question - if the prize pool was hypothetically $1,000,000 - with the winner taking $500,000 - would the Korean's still be making financial demands regarding travel and lodging? Likely not.
Win. That's all that matters. Win. Nobody likes to lose.
Iberville
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada207 Posts
August 14 2011 21:54 GMT
#625
On August 14 2011 02:53 Myles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 02:51 Iberville wrote:
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the NASL didn't pay for air fare. Nothing by the NASL concerning this makes sense and they are in the wrong imho.

That being said, players complaining about waking up at 4 AM can chose not to play in the NASL. Their choice.

I do feel the low amount of support that the NASL gives to the players is going to bite them back hard. They will not win the PR war, that's for sure.


Did you read? The Koreans were going to get $2000 upfront for expenses. Actual costs provided by NASL from season 1 show that this was enough. The Koreans were going to have their airfare, ground travel, and hotel costs payed for.

Did you read? They have to pay it back. Stop being a horrible troll.
I promise not to make a tasteless joke.
moargas
Profile Joined October 2010
31 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 06:11:07
August 15 2011 06:10 GMT
#626
Wait... if they signed the contract for the S2 qualifiers in July, then what was played in June?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=234791
OCsurfeR
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States195 Posts
August 16 2011 16:49 GMT
#627
On August 15 2011 06:54 Iberville wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 02:53 Myles wrote:
On August 14 2011 02:51 Iberville wrote:
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the NASL didn't pay for air fare. Nothing by the NASL concerning this makes sense and they are in the wrong imho.

That being said, players complaining about waking up at 4 AM can chose not to play in the NASL. Their choice.

I do feel the low amount of support that the NASL gives to the players is going to bite them back hard. They will not win the PR war, that's for sure.


Did you read? The Koreans were going to get $2000 upfront for expenses. Actual costs provided by NASL from season 1 show that this was enough. The Koreans were going to have their airfare, ground travel, and hotel costs payed for.

Did you read? They have to pay it back. Stop being a horrible troll.


They only have to pay it back if they win money at the Finals in excess of what it cost to bring them to the Finals. Look up "troll" because I don't think it means what you think it means.
"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?" - Chris Knight, Real Genius
akalarry
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1978 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 17:14:02
August 16 2011 17:12 GMT
#628
On August 15 2011 15:10 moargas wrote:
Wait... if they signed the contract for the S2 qualifiers in July, then what was played in June?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=234791


yah... why would nasl do contract work 1 month after the qualifiers and 2 weeks before the actual season. not that smart by them.

i'm curious to know what the contents of the contract are. i bet that would tell much more to the story then, "oh they breached the contract". there's obviously more going on.
Chriscras
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Korea (South)2812 Posts
August 16 2011 17:16 GMT
#629
Do you think HuK will be in the NASL now?????
"En taro adun, Executor."
Kemy
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 17:29:34
August 16 2011 17:28 GMT
#630
This still sounds more of a protectionist move than anything else.

In the last NASL finales we had how many Koreans participating through the open bracket? I don't think any of the participants in the open bracket got any kind of travel stipends since it was open for 1024 players which would be a ridicolous sum if they had to pay for everyone...

Please, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Additionally, assuming that 1000 USD + 1000 USD minimum prize money is enough to cover all costs why can't teams talk to their players if they would agree to pay the flight etc out of this 1000 USD prize money? I just don't see how NONE of the Koreans would agree to this given that they can play in front of a huge crowd, playing for 1st place, getting themselves known to sponsors etc.
Hammurabio
Profile Joined August 2010
152 Posts
August 18 2011 15:04 GMT
#631
On August 17 2011 02:28 Kemy wrote:
In the last NASL finales we had how many Koreans participating through the open bracket? I don't think any of the participants in the open bracket got any kind of travel stipends since it was open for 1024 players which would be a ridicolous sum if they had to pay for everyone...

Please, correct me if I'm wrong here.


By design, the Open Bracket winner is the only participant that goes to the NASL finals.
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