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On August 12 2011 16:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I just tried google translating PLAYXP and either the translation sucks, or PLAYXP SC2 forum-goers like to talk about Chicken and some dude named Frank.
Sorry, but Frank is a rabbit
+ Show Spoiler +
Also I don't really get the drama, I mean, one side makes demands, the other side can't meet them...what's the bid deal? I mean, it happens every day multiple times in business?
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On August 12 2011 16:50 sleepingdog wrote:
so, by logic, GSL should pay every western pro-gamer all travel-expenses and lodging in korea when they want to play in GSL? seriously?
GSL does pay for travel expenses of western pro-gamers who have earned their GSL spots (MLG-GSL exchange program) and they provide the lodging for every foreigner who wants to try the GSL. Koreans who are travelling to the NASL finals have earned their spots so it is reasonable for them to expect their travelling and lodgings accommodated for. It is understandable that NASL is not as financially secured as the GSL/MLG but if you claim to be a top league you have to do what a top league does.
Also, the security-posit-argument is ridiculous - something like that is completely, like 100% common in every business contract "outside" esports. You can't ensure performance of your counterpart, therefore you demand money to have leverage.
Doubling your required security deposit (and NASL still hasn't given a good reason why) in an instant is common in businesses? News to me.
I have never been against koreans joining the NASL, but if they feel mistreated and make strange demands I won't miss them and enjoy their play in GSL and to some extent MLG instead.
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to OP:
I applaud your effort to bring in the news but I think you left out alot of critical info.
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On August 12 2011 17:04 Bear4188 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:01 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On August 12 2011 16:59 Bear4188 wrote:On August 12 2011 16:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I just tried google translating PLAYXP and either the translation sucks, or PLAYXP SC2 forum-goers like to talk about Chicken and some dude named Frank. Frank is MarineKing. And everybody loves chicken. Why do Koreans call MarineKingPrime....Frank. Is it like some sexy foreigner sounding name? Gets him all the ladies? Frank gogo! They don't actually call him Frank, that's just how Google translate mutilates his real name. edit: aww crap I should have edited that in
We should call him Frank from now on. MarineKing "Frank" Prime. Our way to cheer on MarineKing. Start a movement!
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Imo they should just strike a deal with all the korean players going.
How much did all the koreans at the last nasl win? Probably like 80k
Sc2con can take 10% of their winnings + allowance to pay for everything
They will be playing for 45k first instead of 50k no big deal
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It's nobody's fault, there's not enough money in the scene yet. Hope things will get better, as it still keeps growing. There are still whole 2 expansions to come, and then the elephant in the room. GL to both NASL and the Korean teams which pulled out. Thanks for the translation and the quotes.
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@fraktoasters: I was quoting OP, but only in Apastrophes&Bolding but with no nickname 
The Question mark was more kinda "Am i doing this calculation wrong!?"
Sorry about that, but i'm not used to this board yet. 
All in all its probably a perspective thing. I can unerstand the Korean teams but i can also understand NASL.
Also, if Reasons Nr. 1&6 from Mr. Govou are true, its even more understandable they declined.
The other reasons where obvious from the begin... kinda...
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On August 12 2011 17:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im with the NASL on this one. It s a very nice opportunity that they let Koreans compete if they want to. They make it sound like it s NASLs duty to assure every Korean makes money on it. Why dont foreigners blame GOM for not giving them a couple 1000 dollars?
As for the deposit, i dont think there s anything wrong with that, i personally dont believe that NASL would hold that back, im not sure if this was said or i misunderstood the tarnslation isnt very clear.
1000 dollar is a lot, 2000 is more then what a player actually needs for the trip, AND there s a huge ass pricepool which they are favored to take. And beside, even if u dont win, u get a free fucking trip to the US, i realize it s not like going in Italy or Paris but still, an experience.
If they consider it s not worth it to compete in those conditions, that s ok, but this official withdrawal is really stupid.
Personally, if i m allowed to play in a Mongolian (just a random country, no specific reason) SC2 tournament, which i have good chances of winning and almost guaranteed to finish in a paid spot, but they ask that i play when they say i have to, and i will have to fly to Mongolia and they might not pay my full expences, only half or i have to negotiate in order for them to pay it full, well i d say thank you very much. If my team would come and say, hey we re not OK with you possibly winning several thousans of dollars and a free trip, so dont play, i d tell them to go fuck themselves.
Excuse my language
There's no $2000, only $1000. The other $1000 is the money that will be deducted in the prize money that the player win, so it's like the player's money, not NASL.
If you have the money to go by yourself, then yes, it sounds reasonable. But to the Korean players, they have to rely on the team/manager to pay for the expense, and the team doesn't pay for you alone, but for other players too. And you really underestimate the deposit money. Remember that ST team said they spend 2,000,000 won/month to feed the players? Well 2,000,000won ~ $1800. So for team such as OGS who has to put the money deposit for MC, Zenio, Nada, Top, Ensnare, I don't think they would be happy to let their rice money to tie up without knowing when they gonna get back.
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On August 12 2011 16:59 Bear4188 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I just tried google translating PLAYXP and either the translation sucks, or PLAYXP SC2 forum-goers like to talk about Chicken and some dude named Frank. Frank is MarineKing. And everybody loves chicken.
loooool, that's great.
Anyway, what a terrible situation for the players.
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Isn't the deposit to make sure the players attend correctly? but shouldn't their reputation being on the line be enough these days? I know first time around it was a new tournament, but the second time around it's established and more is at stake for everyone, especially with more eyes on it now. Dunno, the koreans don't seem to have too steep of demands imo. Not having koreans in the tournament will cost the NASL more than the travel costs, so their demands will probably be met anyhow.
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On August 12 2011 16:31 Adebisi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:25 EchoZ wrote:On August 12 2011 16:23 vertical101 wrote:
koreans demand is too much. how about those foreign teams who pay for themselves to attend other tournaments. always korean,korea,korean Not all Korean teams can afford to fork out such amounts. Besides, GOM and MLG have previously sponsored players back and forth, with GOM taking the extra step with the teamhouse, so I fail to see why NASL can't? GOM was expecting Foreigners to come over and play in a $1500 qualification tournament that spanned a month. NASL is having Koreans come for a shot at $50,000 over 3 days. (after playing in 10 weeks of online play) Do you see how these two things are different? NASL is obviously also a start up, I think what NASL offered while probably not ideal for some of the smaller Korean teams, I don't think its right that SC2Con comes in and declares them all out :/. Feels like the equivalent of eSports protectionism lol. Either way TYVM for the translations, very interesting.
$50,000 over 3 days? No No No. NASL lasts for 3 months. For 3 months, you have to get up at 4am a few time a week, and may end up earning nothing (fail to qualify for the finals, and you get $0) after nearly 3 months. Even if you enter the finals, there are 16 players competing for the $40000 ( and only one can get that amount of money); 90% of chance you will get $`1000 or $1500.
3 months, 95% of chance of getting only $1000 - 1500. Think about it, dude.
In a word, the key here is 3 months.
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Australia6267 Posts
On August 12 2011 17:03 snafoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:42 Azzur wrote:I bring you a statement by Mr Chae, head of GOM, who is also part of the SC2Con: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225324Chae Jung Won, the head of GomTV manage team "Can't understand foreigner's rejection"
GSL Super Tournament begins in coming May 23rd with top 64 GSL point rankers.
Super tournament has made issues by making competition of both code A and code S players, but unfortunately many foreigners, except Chris 'Huk' Loranger and Jonathan 'Jinro' Walsh, has rejected invitations.
Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."
PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."
The prize of participating World Championship was about 3,000,000 Won. (about 2700 USD) But in Super Tournament, if you qualify RO32 you will be guaranteed to have 1,000,000 Won. (about 900 USD) Of course you can't be sure until you hear from players, the prize pool , the chance of winning the tournament, and the travel cost are the most probable reason to reject invitation.
In fact, Dmytro 'Dimaga' Filipchuk spoke during the interview after World Championship that "It is very difficult to stay in Korea for long term since I have a girl friend and family. There are many online tournaments in Europe. That is why playing in Europe is much better choice for me."
Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S."
About question of making barrier for players in code A to promote in code S through Up and Down match, he said "The ability of player is what they can make win in Up and Down match. If you lose your Up and Down match, then you can't advance to code S. But we made change so winner of code A can advance without Up and Down match."
Written by: Lee Si Woo (siwoo@playxp.com)
(C) PlayXP
The money that a player earns for even making to the ro32 of the ST is LESS than what the teams would get from qualifying for the NASL finals and Mr Chae "Can't understand foreigner's rejection". There are certainly valid reasons for non-NASL participation but to blame it on travel fees smacks of double standards. On the flip-side, I didn't appreciate NASL's hostile stance on the matter and their slow handling of money. Still, I believe NASL is going to struggle to survive without the koreans. SC2Con is a player/team related thing, I don't know why you're quoting something from a GOM employee who isn't actually part of SC2Con -_-
Mr Chae is part of SC2Con.
In NASL's official statement:
In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties].
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why should NASL pay out for ALL THE KOREANS THAT QUALIFY, MLG have to pay for only 4 in the partnership with GSL and Vice versa, NASL shouldnt be expected to pay for all the koreans to come over for offline finals..... If NASL said well we will pay for the top 4 to return or something similar then it will still annoy the other Koreans. They cant keep changing thigns to suit the large nubmer of Koreans, the top prize is a lot and well worth it, its a risk and a gamble that you have to take to try and win it.
For the people saying that hold the final in Korea, what happens if non koreans do wella nd maanage to win and get into top 8? Its the same difference they would ahve to pay big travel costs to get there to play as well as the casters.
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People are making it sound like this is just about a 3 day tournament that Koreans want to be paid 200$ to go to, and are conveniently forgetting the part about you having to play in the middle of the night for 3 months to get to the finals.
On August 12 2011 16:04 jjw wrote:
Second there were no care about Korean players who join the NASL. Korean top player like Boxer, moon, mc, Nada but they should overcome the parallax and they had terrible condiction to play game and schedule was changed and it made things worse.
You play in horrible conditions for 3 months only for the possibility of losing money trying to play in the finals? How could it get worse. No surprise they wouldn't want to play.
Edit: I don't care if it's fair or not for people to expect NASL to pay finalist more (..they do have a gigantic prize pool but whatever), but the set up for NASL is pretty much as bad as it could get for Koreans so this shouldn't be a surprise.
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At least the press releases bascially say the same, so noone made up a story...
a) It's just a different view on things what a league should do for their stars (yes, the league is worthless without the players) etc. This is what happens when these different cultures and esport scenes start working together, nothing too dramatic imho.
b) The Koreans dont like the playing conditions, which is understandable - yet they knew about that before the start of the league.
I'm sure we will see less and less of such stupid problems in the future - especially when the Korean teams will finally manage to get some sponsors (or are bought by Western teams^^).
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On August 12 2011 16:08 SenorChang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:07 Primadog wrote:
Seems like the Korean side collaborates with what the NASL release said (abate with a different attitude). It's unfortunate that the scene has not become sufficiently big that travel cease to be an issue.
Shows how fragile StarCraft 2 remains and how much more it has to grow in order to become a proper competitive sport. Need an airline to sponsor Sc2! yee! Thanks for translating I can fully understand where the koreans come from withdrawing for NASL. The conditions for them are so poor, with having to get up at 4am to play their games, over the course of 3 months - then fly across the globe to lose 1 set and be out of it (felt bad for Ret too :< - first seed and out so fast with no chance at redemption) - and with the stipend deal they will essentially have earned nothing for it. Really wish NASL would re-do their tournament structure.
Like that one?
http://cdn.gamerant.com/wp-content/uploads/starcraft-2-airplane.jpg
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On August 12 2011 17:17 MethodSC wrote:
Isn't the deposit to make sure the players attend correctly? but shouldn't their reputation being on the line be enough these days? I know first time around it was a new tournament, but the second time around it's established and more is at stake for everyone, especially with more eyes on it now. Dunno, the koreans don't seem to have too steep of demands imo. Not having koreans in the tournament will cost the NASL more than the travel costs, so their demands will probably be met anyhow.
Unfortunately, even with the deposit, there were still quite a few walkovers last season, and I suspect that upping the deposit is to help prevent that. The NASL is a commitment over multiple months, and they want to make sure that the players that sign up are committed and won't just abandon it halfway.
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Korean is really good taking foreign money(prize+this shit). this unfair for western-programer.
top 10 of prizemoney is korean, next thing we know they want to eat us aLive. they should have been happy from what they have. and think for foreigner player too. korean get special treatment in foreign tournaments.
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On August 12 2011 17:20 fraktoasters wrote:People are making it sound like this is just about a 3 day tournament that Koreans want to be paid 200$ to go to, and are conveniently forgetting the part about you having to play in the middle of the night for 3 months to get to the finals. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:04 jjw wrote:
Second there were no care about Korean players who join the NASL. Korean top player like Boxer, moon, mc, Nada but they should overcome the parallax and they had terrible condiction to play game and schedule was changed and it made things worse.
You play in horrible conditions for 3 months only for the possibility of losing money trying to play in the finals? How could it get worse. No surprise they wouldn't want to play.
well said.
btw, may want to replace ''middle of the night'' with '' very early in the morning''.
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This seems like an argument between team managers and NASL, the players just got caught in between, and suffer because of it.
From the looks of the negotiations, SC2 Conf does NOT support players rights. It represents more of the manager's interest. Which is natural because it consists of only one player, all the rest are coaches/managers.
If it were not for this council laying down the law, I am sure there would still be players willing to make the trip, and accept the $2000 stipend. However, instead of allowing each player to make their own decision, the team managers decided to band together and make the decision for everyone.
Normal person: Learns about a tournament, weighs costs and benefits, decides not to go.
Cunning person: Learns about a tournament, weights costs and benefits, decides not to go, then convinces everyone else not to go in the slight chance that it may come back to benefit him.
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EPT
