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On August 12 2011 13:05 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:03 nanaoei wrote:On August 12 2011 12:55 Disquiet wrote:On August 12 2011 12:48 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:44 Disquiet wrote:On August 12 2011 12:36 ke_ivan wrote:
Yeah Korea is far away from pretty much everywhere and the cost to fly is expensive. So I'm not surprised they pulled out - they probably don't have the upfront cash. They did do this late though, so bad planning there. Even if they went on a young person's ticket, that would cost US$1250. A weak US Dollar obviously helps, but imagine if you were MC and your team wanted to fly you once a month out the NASL. Even 2k per player wouldn't be enough, and that doesn't even include expenses like lodging and food. The only reasonable thing to do would be to pull out. I'm not saying that they should've, but NASL and the teams should've considered this already. Aren't the managers supposed to the number crunching first? That's why FXO has a wonderful model - think of it as a business subsidiary: FXOKorea and FXO. Look all the financial excuses are BS. Plane tickets are 1500 return at the most. With this prizing they will be making a profit even if they lose in the first round. The concern might be upfront cash. Well I think Koreans need to learn what a loan is, when you have guaranteed income to repay the loan in the future theres no risk of excessive ongoing interest payments from a loan. Its collective bargaining from sc2con to try and get more than they deserve. You see this kind of thing all the time with unions and in the end everyone loses. How is it getting more than they deserve when their biggest league is shipping foreigners to play in their tournaments for free, as well as housing them, giving them equal opportunity in the tournaments, and rescheduling their groups just so the foreigners can participate in an extra couple of tournies? As for money being BS...$1500 for plane ticket alone, not counting room, board, further traveling costs once on the ground, that adds up for poorer teams. I think you need to read the thread, it has been stated multiple times that 1650 is realistically how much the trip costs. They are making the a guaranteed profit of 350 just for attending. Asking for more is more than they deserve, and NASL rightfully refused them. I don't think this is the players decision, it is sc2cons decision. I'm sure the players would love to be paid 350 to go on a trip to america to play starcraft. And your comparison with the GSL is foolish. 1.) the GSL is month long, a much bigger investment than the 3day NASL. 2.) The koreans have a far greater chance of earning a significant amount of prizemoney than foreigners in the GSL. if you want to really compare gsl to nasl, you're going to have to be a player who has attended both, or someone with good knowledge of all the costs involved. on top of nasl being around 2-3months of games if i recall correctly? preceding the finals held in america At least at GSL, everyone is on equal footing? You don't have specific groups of players having to get up at 4am for matches with twice the latency...That in and of itself is a bit problematic no?
No, just a majority of their viewers
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On August 12 2011 13:04 PGriff wrote:
I totally support nasl here. Players pay their own way (whether it's out of their pocket or their team foots the bill) for essentially every tournament. MLG is an exception because it is on a limited scale and there is a reciprocity agreement with GSL.
The $2000 is more than fair for travel. It is ridiculous how much the Koreans expect to be pampered and rewarded for these prestigious tourneys. No other tournies (dreamhack, iem, etc) are so generous with travel stipends to my knowledge. I'm glad nasl put the foot down and I look forward to this season even more now that we will see who is really among the best of the NA/EU scene.
It's not $2000, it's $1000. Yes, I will make it a point to POINT OUT THAT THIS IS WRONG whenever someone mentions it. It's $1000 travel stipend, and they're trying to offer a guaranteed $1000 prize for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time.
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On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes.
It is neither disingenuous nor biased to state that the cost of airfare+hotel/local transportation of the July finals trip was $1650. The playoffs were complete 6/19, the finals began on 7/9 and $1650 was the cost of the trip (on average, excluding food). Don't forget that nearly every player agreed to remove travel expenses from their winnings last season, and that the prize for 9-16 has doubled (hand-waving means the travel budget is now $1500). That reduces the the teams' out-of-pocket expenses per player to ~$150 per food if prices are comparable (and they all agree to keep the same prize as last season, and none of them agree to use the prize to help). Let's say they can't do it just right again and it ends up being $200 per player; for reference, that is less than half what it would cost me to go from Florida to MLG Providence which offers only $20k more in prize money.
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On August 12 2011 13:00 Redlol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:58 Brian333 wrote:
Jesus, how many people can't read? In the opening post, it is NOT a $2000 travel stipend. It is a COMBINED $2000 from $1000 top 16 guaranteed winnings and $1000 travel stipend. So? What do you want to bed that the players would fucking love to come to Korea to play for a probable 300$ guaranteed payout. The teams are just trying to protect StarCraft in Korea. In time they will beg to play in our tournaments as they realize they can't hide forever.
I think it's pretty obvious that any top players won't want to be paid only $300 guaranteed cash for months of pool play at awkward times and a trip overseas. Slayers is not bound by any obligations to the SC2 committee and they deemed it an unworthy investment of their time.
Just look at BoxeR. Months of poorly organized pool play where there were times he would be up until the early morning waiting for his competition to show up due to time zone differences. Plays one set of games as is eliminated after traveling to the US. Just made $300 in 2+ months of dedicated, high level play. Conclusion? withdraw from NASL s2.
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On August 12 2011 12:59 MeeMeesiko wrote:
In response to this, the GSL is no longer on my "to watch" list.
It seems like many of these players and teams feel that it's perfectly reasonable that Foreign players pay extensively from their teams and their own pockets in order to compete in the GSL, but Korean players shouldn't have to stoop down to that level. Players like HuK, Naniwa, Jinro, possibly Thorzain and more are all staying in Korea, outside the main part of their teams and definitely somewhat out of their comfort zones in order to compete in Korea. Some of these players don't even speak Korean; haven't played on the Korean ladder for more than a week or two, and have dedicated a lot of time and money just to compete in the GSL. Why should Korean players be any different? We're their fans too. We want to see them play because they are awesome. But if their management feels that they're too good or too preoccupied so much that they're willing to spit on the dedication that Foreigners have to StarCraft, then I don't want to see them play anyways.
The NASL is one of the coolest tournaments I've ever seen come to life. It had its own share of problems early on but it all fell together pretty neatly in the end and had some seriously cool games come out of it. I think this is unfair to all players and fans of this game and it needs to be changed.
Read up more facts before you actually start typing. GOM PAID for all their traveling expenses, their house fees, provided them with a house with running water, electricity, computers, organizes their games to fit their schedule and you spew out all this bull crap?
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On August 12 2011 13:05 BryanSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:59 MeeMeesiko wrote:
In response to this, the GSL is no longer on my "to watch" list.
It seems like many of these players and teams feel that it's perfectly reasonable that Foreign players pay extensively from their teams and their own pockets in order to compete in the GSL, but Korean players shouldn't have to stoop down to that level. Players like HuK, Naniwa, Jinro, possibly Thorzain and more are all staying in Korea, outside the main part of their teams and definitely somewhat out of their comfort zones in order to compete in Korea. Some of these players don't even speak Korean; haven't played on the Korean ladder for more than a week or two, and have dedicated a lot of time and money just to compete in the GSL. Why should Korean players be any different? We're their fans too. We want to see them play because they are awesome. But if their management feels that they're too good or too preoccupied so much that they're willing to spit on the dedication that Foreigners have to StarCraft, then I don't want to see them play anyways.
The NASL is one of the coolest tournaments I've ever seen come to life. It had its own share of problems early on but it all fell together pretty neatly in the end and had some seriously cool games come out of it. I think this is unfair to all players and fans of this game and it needs to be changed. You show 'em who's boss!
If I could yet find that contact for SC2Con that I've been asking/looking for, this email is what I would send them because it articulates everything I want to say.
PS: Still looking for an email contact for Sc2con or anyone who runs it.
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On August 12 2011 13:05 reptile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 10:39 Goibon wrote:
If everything in the post is truthful and not deceptive, then i'm not impressed with the Korean teams on this one.
Of course i don't think many of them really cared about NASL anyway, given the lag and time of day. It sounded from the few comments i've heard from coaches and players that participating was a pain in the arse. So my assumption is that they've all got together and tried to throw their weight around to get more out of the deal.
I'm kinda disappointed in NASL for bending over, but at the same time respect their eagerness. I'm actually glad they didn't accept the revised offers in the end, because i'd hate to see such unprofessional, whiny dealings to have actually had an effect.
As for hurting quality of NASL, In the end i never took the Korean matches seriously because of the lag factor, so for me this wont actually end up hurting the weekly league one bit. Finals, sure but I pray NASL aren't doing a finals qualifier thing again like last time. I hated that so fucking much. If you don't participate in the season you shouldn't be able to get into the finals.
If this is going to be the 'foreigner only' tournament, then i'm kinda glad there's one. The Koreans themselves might have given Catz his wish.
All in all i'm fine this, and disappointed in the Koreans attitude.
GL HF NASL Season 2! I think everything you said was spot on. Couldn't be more accurate. The whole open bracket final qualifier seemed to totally eliminate all of the hard work the other players put in throughout the season. I would like to see Korean competition in the NASL, but I too, am glad that the NASL didn't continue to try and pamper the Koreans with a more generous offer. Their attitudes and actions thus far have been disrespectful and hurtful to esports overall. I really hope all foreigners take this as a slap in the face and practice with a vengeance to destroy Korean players at the upcoming MLG event. Please don't take any of this as a matter of race. I'm simply hoping that foreigners are able to defeat the Koreans do to the general standard that the Koreans are held as higher skilled players. Now that there is one less tournament with Korean competition, I want foreign competitors to win more than ever.
Did you see how far the Koreans bent back to accommodate the MLG foreigners? Did you see what the foreigners did with their code A spots? Yea there might be a better chance for foreigners to win NASL this season but it's gonna be tainted with the knowledge that most of the best players were not able to participate.
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I hope this pushes more players to go on foreign teams, you know you want that check PuMa brought home.
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On August 12 2011 13:04 PGriff wrote:
I totally support nasl here. Players pay their own way (whether it's out of their pocket or their team foots the bill) for essentially every tournament. MLG is an exception because it is on a limited scale and there is a reciprocity agreement with GSL.
The $2000 is more than fair for travel. It is ridiculous how much the Koreans expect to be pampered and rewarded for these prestigious tourneys. No other tournies (dreamhack, iem, etc) are so generous with travel stipends to my knowledge. I'm glad nasl put the foot down and I look forward to this season even more now that we will see who is really among the best of the NA/EU scene.
They are NOT being greedy. They are just being fair to teams and players.
Other tournaments completely pay for the travel costs.
Most teams WOULD NOT want their players to pay out of their own pocket to travel to a tournament. This is Asian culture, remember? Mutualism over individualism.
Some teams can afford to send their players overseas, some can't. If your team can't, think about how much of a disadvantage that would be.
By withdrawing, they are doing the right thing. However, they should have come to a decision earlier to avoid screwing over NASL, and should not have qualified so many players.
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On August 12 2011 13:07 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:05 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:03 nanaoei wrote:On August 12 2011 12:55 Disquiet wrote:On August 12 2011 12:48 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:44 Disquiet wrote:On August 12 2011 12:36 ke_ivan wrote:
Yeah Korea is far away from pretty much everywhere and the cost to fly is expensive. So I'm not surprised they pulled out - they probably don't have the upfront cash. They did do this late though, so bad planning there. Even if they went on a young person's ticket, that would cost US$1250. A weak US Dollar obviously helps, but imagine if you were MC and your team wanted to fly you once a month out the NASL. Even 2k per player wouldn't be enough, and that doesn't even include expenses like lodging and food. The only reasonable thing to do would be to pull out. I'm not saying that they should've, but NASL and the teams should've considered this already. Aren't the managers supposed to the number crunching first? That's why FXO has a wonderful model - think of it as a business subsidiary: FXOKorea and FXO. Look all the financial excuses are BS. Plane tickets are 1500 return at the most. With this prizing they will be making a profit even if they lose in the first round. The concern might be upfront cash. Well I think Koreans need to learn what a loan is, when you have guaranteed income to repay the loan in the future theres no risk of excessive ongoing interest payments from a loan. Its collective bargaining from sc2con to try and get more than they deserve. You see this kind of thing all the time with unions and in the end everyone loses. How is it getting more than they deserve when their biggest league is shipping foreigners to play in their tournaments for free, as well as housing them, giving them equal opportunity in the tournaments, and rescheduling their groups just so the foreigners can participate in an extra couple of tournies? As for money being BS...$1500 for plane ticket alone, not counting room, board, further traveling costs once on the ground, that adds up for poorer teams. I think you need to read the thread, it has been stated multiple times that 1650 is realistically how much the trip costs. They are making the a guaranteed profit of 350 just for attending. Asking for more is more than they deserve, and NASL rightfully refused them. I don't think this is the players decision, it is sc2cons decision. I'm sure the players would love to be paid 350 to go on a trip to america to play starcraft. And your comparison with the GSL is foolish. 1.) the GSL is month long, a much bigger investment than the 3day NASL. 2.) The koreans have a far greater chance of earning a significant amount of prizemoney than foreigners in the GSL. if you want to really compare gsl to nasl, you're going to have to be a player who has attended both, or someone with good knowledge of all the costs involved. on top of nasl being around 2-3months of games if i recall correctly? preceding the finals held in america At least at GSL, everyone is on equal footing? You don't have specific groups of players having to get up at 4am for matches with twice the latency...That in and of itself is a bit problematic no? No, just a majority of their viewers
You can actually PAY and watch the VODs anytime you want, which is what I've done for EVERY season. If you don't want to pay, don't complain.
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2 months of brutal hours into possible minimal gains at the final tournament, is probably not worth it for the Korean players. The 500 dollars security deposit doesn't take into account the time value of money, since that is 500 dollars that could of been spent 2 months ago feeding your players, so that's a huge deal when it comes to making accounting decisions. The amount of work vs. probable risk of earning big is just not worth it and that is that. This is why the Korean's didn't want to play in NASL.
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On August 12 2011 13:08 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:00 Redlol wrote:On August 12 2011 12:58 Brian333 wrote:
Jesus, how many people can't read? In the opening post, it is NOT a $2000 travel stipend. It is a COMBINED $2000 from $1000 top 16 guaranteed winnings and $1000 travel stipend. So? What do you want to bed that the players would fucking love to come to Korea to play for a probable 300$ guaranteed payout. The teams are just trying to protect StarCraft in Korea. In time they will beg to play in our tournaments as they realize they can't hide forever. I think it's pretty obvious that any top players won't want to be paid only $300 guaranteed cash for months of pool play at awkward times and a trip overseas. Slayers is not bound by any obligations to the SC2 committee and they deemed it an unworthy investment of their time. Just look at BoxeR. Months of poorly organized pool play where there were times he would be up until the early morning waiting for his competition to show up due to time zone differences. Plays one set of games as is eliminated after traveling to the US. Just made $300 in 2+ months of dedicated, high level play. Conclusion? withdraw from NASL s2.
This is probably the most accurate portrayal of how the Koreans feel. It's not unreasonable to think that $300 for months of pool play at awkward times and a trip overseas is not worth your time.
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Don't know why people are threatening to boycott GSL when,as Xeris said, Mr.Chae has been very helpful to NASL and that the GSL is a great league...
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On August 12 2011 12:55 goswser wrote:
Wow why would they not come with an offer of a 2000 dollar stipend....thats just stupid, their winnings would more than cover their expenses.....
That's because it's not a 2000 dollar stipend. It's 1000 stipend and 1000 from the player's own prize money. NASL has cleverly worded it so it seems what they're offering is generous but it's really not.
So as a Korean pro I would have to endure 9 (days in 9) weeks of hiccups in my sleeping schedule to just compete. Assuming I get to Finals, I would have endure travel and jet lag, bad playing conditions (from what I gather from threads), and then more competition. Not only that but I would have provide for my own accommodations from my own prize money with absolutely no guarantee on the rest of the prize pool. So all in all, I'm only guaranteed an earning of ~400 U.S dollars for 9 weeks of work.
No wonder the Koreans declined. I can earn more than that amount in that time period working part-time for McDonalds. Idra earns more than that for the amount he charges for his coaching for a single session. These conditions are completely unacceptable for a professional league, especially one claiming to be a future top league.
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Wait... I'm a little confused (and a lot sleepy) to comprehend.
So the offer from NASL is $1K guaranteed money for the Top 16 players (which is basically everyone qualified for the live event) and $1K travel stipend. Thus, the least amount a live-event qualifying Korean player will get is a total of $2K... which is essentially break-even with the travel cost and accommodations.
Am I missing something? The way I see it is that a live-event qualifying Korean will have an opportunity to win the prize pool while not losing any money during the process.
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On August 12 2011 13:08 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:00 Redlol wrote:On August 12 2011 12:58 Brian333 wrote:
Jesus, how many people can't read? In the opening post, it is NOT a $2000 travel stipend. It is a COMBINED $2000 from $1000 top 16 guaranteed winnings and $1000 travel stipend. So? What do you want to bed that the players would fucking love to come to Korea to play for a probable 300$ guaranteed payout. The teams are just trying to protect StarCraft in Korea. In time they will beg to play in our tournaments as they realize they can't hide forever. I think it's pretty obvious that any top players won't want to be paid only $300 guaranteed cash for months of pool play at awkward times and a trip overseas. Slayers is not bound by any obligations to the SC2 committee and they deemed it an unworthy investment of their time. Just look at BoxeR. Months of poorly organized pool play where there were times he would be up until the early morning waiting for his competition to show up due to time zone differences. Plays one set of games as is eliminated after traveling to the US. Just made $300 in 2+ months of dedicated, high level play. Conclusion? withdraw from NASL s2.
But notice how BoxeR withdrew, and the rest of the Korean players didn't? In fact, they signed their contracts, expecting to be participating in NASL.
This decision wasn't reached by the players. People really need to understand that because I think it's a really important fact to know. This decision was reached by the business people of Korean SC2 scene...not the players.
And I hope there will be some players brave enough to really tell us what they think of the decision.
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On August 12 2011 13:01 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:57 Redlol wrote:
Nazgul said earlier that he thinks it's reasonable for the Koreans to try to preserve their scene, and I think that's a good point. It's likely a defensive measure by the Koreans to prolong the true explosion of ESPORTS outside their country. People still consider Korea the place to be, and if the NASL is truly competitive that might not be the case anymore, especially with the recent exodus of Koreans to pro-teams.
Give it another year and Koreans will be begging to play in American and European tournaments, they can't preserve their scene forever. Never read something so ridiculous. Koreans have preserved their starcraft scene for ten years with zero foreign help.
You literally didn't think about anything when you replied to this did you?
"Koreans have preserved their starcraft scene for ten years with zero foreign help."
That doesn't even remotely apply here, this statement doesn't make any sense.
I'll clarify what I said based on what I think you meant though,
BW in Korea is still bigger than SC2, of course the Koreans preserved the BW scene just fine. They will NOT preserve their SC2 scene, at least not in comparison to the foreign scene.
The foreign scene WILL blow the Korean scene out of the water within one year. It's in the interests of the Koreans to prevent that from happening for as long as they can.
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To all the people saying theres a 2000 dollar stipend, there isn't. The stipend is $1000 and the nasl is going to take another $1000 out of the korean players winnings. So they're only offering $1000.4
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On August 12 2011 13:09 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:05 reptile wrote:On August 12 2011 10:39 Goibon wrote:
If everything in the post is truthful and not deceptive, then i'm not impressed with the Korean teams on this one.
Of course i don't think many of them really cared about NASL anyway, given the lag and time of day. It sounded from the few comments i've heard from coaches and players that participating was a pain in the arse. So my assumption is that they've all got together and tried to throw their weight around to get more out of the deal.
I'm kinda disappointed in NASL for bending over, but at the same time respect their eagerness. I'm actually glad they didn't accept the revised offers in the end, because i'd hate to see such unprofessional, whiny dealings to have actually had an effect.
As for hurting quality of NASL, In the end i never took the Korean matches seriously because of the lag factor, so for me this wont actually end up hurting the weekly league one bit. Finals, sure but I pray NASL aren't doing a finals qualifier thing again like last time. I hated that so fucking much. If you don't participate in the season you shouldn't be able to get into the finals.
If this is going to be the 'foreigner only' tournament, then i'm kinda glad there's one. The Koreans themselves might have given Catz his wish.
All in all i'm fine this, and disappointed in the Koreans attitude.
GL HF NASL Season 2! I think everything you said was spot on. Couldn't be more accurate. The whole open bracket final qualifier seemed to totally eliminate all of the hard work the other players put in throughout the season. I would like to see Korean competition in the NASL, but I too, am glad that the NASL didn't continue to try and pamper the Koreans with a more generous offer. Their attitudes and actions thus far have been disrespectful and hurtful to esports overall. I really hope all foreigners take this as a slap in the face and practice with a vengeance to destroy Korean players at the upcoming MLG event. Please don't take any of this as a matter of race. I'm simply hoping that foreigners are able to defeat the Koreans do to the general standard that the Koreans are held as higher skilled players. Now that there is one less tournament with Korean competition, I want foreign competitors to win more than ever. Did you see how far the Koreans bent back to accommodate the MLG foreigners? Did you see what the foreigners did with their code A spots? Yea there might be a better chance for foreigners to win NASL this season but it's gonna be tainted with the knowledge that most of the best players were not able to participate.
They played ONE DAY AFTER THEIR ARRIVAL IN KOREAN WHILE THEY WERE STILL JET LAGGED. DON'T YOU DARE try to marginalize the efforts of Nani, Thorzain, Jinro, and Sase.
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EPT
