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On August 12 2011 12:54 dabom88 wrote:
HERE'S A QUESTION TO NASL:
If you say that 2000 dollars should "more than cover" the expenses... then why not just agree to cover all the expenses? It would cost you less than 2000 dollars shouldn't it?
Really, if you claim that the offer is reasonable and that it should cover the player's expenses, why NOT just cover the player's expenses?
great point.
personally i think those particular korean teams were not happy with NASL 1st revised offer and then suddenly their 2nd revised offer got to $2000. The koreans might feel the NASL were just trying to squeeze them as much as possible. If the 1st revised offer was $2000 straight, things might be different.
counting in prize money as reimbursement of travel & lodging is not classy.
who knows, maybe the other korean teams might send players.
would FXO send any of theirs there?
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Why would they waste time playing through the regular league games when they can just show up for the open tournament and roll it?
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On August 12 2011 12:55 goswser wrote:
Wow why would they not come with an offer of a 2000 dollar stipend....thats just stupid, their winnings would more than cover their expenses.....
It's a many month commitment to play in the regular season just to come to one event. This is where the NASL doesn't make sense for Korean players. They have to get up at weird hours just to play an online game with latency. I really don't think the decision to withdraw is JUST because of the Grand Finals.
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As I said before SC2Con probably did not expect so many of their players qualifying and was a bit overwhelmed by the total price of sending each of them to compete in the NASL. Therefore, they withdrew because they cannot afford it without NASL covering the travel expenses.
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On August 12 2011 12:55 Disquiet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:48 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:44 Disquiet wrote:On August 12 2011 12:36 ke_ivan wrote:
Yeah Korea is far away from pretty much everywhere and the cost to fly is expensive. So I'm not surprised they pulled out - they probably don't have the upfront cash. They did do this late though, so bad planning there. Even if they went on a young person's ticket, that would cost US$1250. A weak US Dollar obviously helps, but imagine if you were MC and your team wanted to fly you once a month out the NASL. Even 2k per player wouldn't be enough, and that doesn't even include expenses like lodging and food. The only reasonable thing to do would be to pull out. I'm not saying that they should've, but NASL and the teams should've considered this already. Aren't the managers supposed to the number crunching first? That's why FXO has a wonderful model - think of it as a business subsidiary: FXOKorea and FXO. Look all the financial excuses are BS. Plane tickets are 1500 return at the most. With this prizing they will be making a profit even if they lose in the first round. The concern might be upfront cash. Well I think Koreans need to learn what a loan is, when you have guaranteed income to repay the loan in the future theres no risk of excessive ongoing interest payments from a loan. Its collective bargaining from sc2con to try and get more than they deserve. You see this kind of thing all the time with unions and in the end everyone loses. How is it getting more than they deserve when their biggest league is shipping foreigners to play in their tournaments for free, as well as housing them, giving them equal opportunity in the tournaments, and rescheduling their groups just so the foreigners can participate in an extra couple of tournies? As for money being BS...$1500 for plane ticket alone, not counting room, board, further traveling costs once on the ground, that adds up for poorer teams. I think you need to read the thread, it has been stated multiple times that 1650 is realistically how much the trip costs. They are making the a guaranteed profit of 350 just for attending. Asking for more is more than they deserve, and NASL rightfully refused them. I don't think this is the players decision, it is sc2cons decision. I'm sure the players would love to be paid 350 to go on a trip to america to play starcraft. And your comparison with the GSL is foolish. 1.) the GSL is month long, a much bigger investment than the 3day NASL. 2.) The koreans have a far greater chance of earning a significant amount of prizemoney than foreigners in the GSL.
if you want to really compare gsl to nasl, you're going to have to be a player who has attended both, or someone with good knowledge of all the costs involved.
on top of nasl being around 2-3months of games if i recall correctly? preceding the finals held in america
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On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation.
Also, going on a tangent, but as someone who is a Math/Econ major, this is a great pet peeve. It is HIGHLY INACCURATE to say that it's a "1/16 chance at winning $40,000". 'cause Starcraft is not a game of chance, and you DON'T have a 1/16 chance of winning just for coming to the NASL finals.
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This is pretty ridiculous. Not sure why the Korean teams want to make Kespa2.0 so badly. This sort of decision should be made on a team by team basis.
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So they have to replace 14 people? aLive, Clide, Revival, TOP, MarineKing, Check, Polt, Moon, July, Squirtle, Ace, MC, Zenio, Ensnare?
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On August 12 2011 12:59 MeeMeesiko wrote:
In response to this, the GSL is no longer on my "to watch" list.
It seems like many of these players and teams feel that it's perfectly reasonable that Foreign players pay extensively from their teams and their own pockets in order to compete in the GSL, but Korean players shouldn't have to stoop down to that level. Players like HuK, Naniwa, Jinro, possibly Thorzain and more are all staying in Korea, outside the main part of their teams and definitely somewhat out of their comfort zones in order to compete in Korea. Some of these players don't even speak Korean; haven't played on the Korean ladder for more than a week or two, and have dedicated a lot of time and money just to compete in the GSL. Why should Korean players be any different? We're their fans too. We want to see them play because they are awesome. But if their management feels that they're too good or too preoccupied so much that they're willing to spit on the dedication that Foreigners have to StarCraft, then I don't want to see them play anyways.
The NASL is one of the coolest tournaments I've ever seen come to life. It had its own share of problems early on but it all fell together pretty neatly in the end and had some seriously cool games come out of it. I think this is unfair to all players and fans of this game and it needs to be changed.
I believe Nani, Sase, Thorzain, etc were flown out for free, are given room and board at the GOM house AND had the GSL code A schedule reorganized so they could participate in other tournaments. How is Korea stooping to what level now?
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On August 12 2011 13:00 Redlol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:58 Brian333 wrote:
Jesus, how many people can't read? In the opening post, it is NOT a $2000 travel stipend. It is a COMBINED $2000 from $1000 top 16 guaranteed winnings and $1000 travel stipend. So? What do you want to bed that the players would fucking love to come to Korea to play for a probable 300$ guaranteed payout. The teams are just trying to protect StarCraft in Korea. In time they will beg to play in our tournaments as they realize they can't hide forever.
wtf? thats not even a remotely similar comparison
we would go to korea for the practice alone; despite all the claims, korea has a MUCH higher skill level, and the koreans would be coming to foregin tournaments for money, NOT to practice.
but assume that koreans have a secret pact together and that they are scared other people will enjoy the same passions they do
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I totally support nasl here. Players pay their own way (whether it's out of their pocket or their team foots the bill) for essentially every tournament. MLG is an exception because it is on a limited scale and there is a reciprocity agreement with GSL.
The $2000 is more than fair for travel. It is ridiculous how much the Koreans expect to be pampered and rewarded for these prestigious tourneys. No other tournies (dreamhack, iem, etc) are so generous with travel stipends to my knowledge. I'm glad nasl put the foot down and I look forward to this season even more now that we will see who is really among the best of the NA/EU scene.
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On August 12 2011 10:39 Goibon wrote:
If everything in the post is truthful and not deceptive, then i'm not impressed with the Korean teams on this one.
Of course i don't think many of them really cared about NASL anyway, given the lag and time of day. It sounded from the few comments i've heard from coaches and players that participating was a pain in the arse. So my assumption is that they've all got together and tried to throw their weight around to get more out of the deal.
I'm kinda disappointed in NASL for bending over, but at the same time respect their eagerness. I'm actually glad they didn't accept the revised offers in the end, because i'd hate to see such unprofessional, whiny dealings to have actually had an effect.
As for hurting quality of NASL, In the end i never took the Korean matches seriously because of the lag factor, so for me this wont actually end up hurting the weekly league one bit. Finals, sure but I pray NASL aren't doing a finals qualifier thing again like last time. I hated that so fucking much. If you don't participate in the season you shouldn't be able to get into the finals.
If this is going to be the 'foreigner only' tournament, then i'm kinda glad there's one. The Koreans themselves might have given Catz his wish.
All in all i'm fine this, and disappointed in the Koreans attitude.
GL HF NASL Season 2!
I think everything you said was spot on. Couldn't be more accurate. The whole open bracket final qualifier seemed to totally eliminate all of the hard work the other players put in throughout the season. I would like to see Korean competition in the NASL, but I too, am glad that the NASL didn't continue to try and pamper the Koreans with a more generous offer. Their attitudes and actions thus far have been disrespectful and hurtful to esports overall. I really hope all foreigners take this as a slap in the face and practice with a vengeance to destroy Korean players at the upcoming MLG event.
Please don't take any of this as a matter of race. I'm simply hoping that foreigners are able to defeat the Koreans do to the general standard that the Koreans are held as higher skilled players. Now that there is one less tournament with Korean competition, I want foreign competitors to win more than ever.
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On August 12 2011 13:03 nanaoei wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:55 Disquiet wrote:On August 12 2011 12:48 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:44 Disquiet wrote:On August 12 2011 12:36 ke_ivan wrote:
Yeah Korea is far away from pretty much everywhere and the cost to fly is expensive. So I'm not surprised they pulled out - they probably don't have the upfront cash. They did do this late though, so bad planning there. Even if they went on a young person's ticket, that would cost US$1250. A weak US Dollar obviously helps, but imagine if you were MC and your team wanted to fly you once a month out the NASL. Even 2k per player wouldn't be enough, and that doesn't even include expenses like lodging and food. The only reasonable thing to do would be to pull out. I'm not saying that they should've, but NASL and the teams should've considered this already. Aren't the managers supposed to the number crunching first? That's why FXO has a wonderful model - think of it as a business subsidiary: FXOKorea and FXO. Look all the financial excuses are BS. Plane tickets are 1500 return at the most. With this prizing they will be making a profit even if they lose in the first round. The concern might be upfront cash. Well I think Koreans need to learn what a loan is, when you have guaranteed income to repay the loan in the future theres no risk of excessive ongoing interest payments from a loan. Its collective bargaining from sc2con to try and get more than they deserve. You see this kind of thing all the time with unions and in the end everyone loses. How is it getting more than they deserve when their biggest league is shipping foreigners to play in their tournaments for free, as well as housing them, giving them equal opportunity in the tournaments, and rescheduling their groups just so the foreigners can participate in an extra couple of tournies? As for money being BS...$1500 for plane ticket alone, not counting room, board, further traveling costs once on the ground, that adds up for poorer teams. I think you need to read the thread, it has been stated multiple times that 1650 is realistically how much the trip costs. They are making the a guaranteed profit of 350 just for attending. Asking for more is more than they deserve, and NASL rightfully refused them. I don't think this is the players decision, it is sc2cons decision. I'm sure the players would love to be paid 350 to go on a trip to america to play starcraft. And your comparison with the GSL is foolish. 1.) the GSL is month long, a much bigger investment than the 3day NASL. 2.) The koreans have a far greater chance of earning a significant amount of prizemoney than foreigners in the GSL. if you want to really compare gsl to nasl, you're going to have to be a player who has attended both, or someone with good knowledge of all the costs involved. on top of nasl being around 2-3months of games if i recall correctly? preceding the finals held in america
At least at GSL, everyone is on equal footing? You don't have specific groups of players having to get up at 4am for matches with twice the latency...That in and of itself is a bit problematic no?
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On August 12 2011 12:59 MeeMeesiko wrote:
In response to this, the GSL is no longer on my "to watch" list.
It seems like many of these players and teams feel that it's perfectly reasonable that Foreign players pay extensively from their teams and their own pockets in order to compete in the GSL, but Korean players shouldn't have to stoop down to that level. Players like HuK, Naniwa, Jinro, possibly Thorzain and more are all staying in Korea, outside the main part of their teams and definitely somewhat out of their comfort zones in order to compete in Korea. Some of these players don't even speak Korean; haven't played on the Korean ladder for more than a week or two, and have dedicated a lot of time and money just to compete in the GSL. Why should Korean players be any different? We're their fans too. We want to see them play because they are awesome. But if their management feels that they're too good or too preoccupied so much that they're willing to spit on the dedication that Foreigners have to StarCraft, then I don't want to see them play anyways.
The NASL is one of the coolest tournaments I've ever seen come to life. It had its own share of problems early on but it all fell together pretty neatly in the end and had some seriously cool games come out of it. I think this is unfair to all players and fans of this game and it needs to be changed.
You show 'em who's boss!
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In terms of time-zone difference and getting up to play, it's no different for Europeans.
Yet they still do it, and don't withdraw from it.
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Aa man this isnt great news. I wonder if a better compromise could have been made
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On August 12 2011 13:00 mburke05 wrote:
I think this is ok, hopefully a huge prize pool will give incentive for NA and EU players to work alot harder and train to realize their full potential, hopefully to a point where they can compete at the Korean level.
Everybody has always said that if there is money, there should be competition, and now that there is money hopefully the competition will still remain. I see no reason why people wouldn't want to train hard with a potential full years salary as a first prize spot.
I was actually thinking this myself
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Wow that sucks. I feel bad for the NASL - they really got the short end of that stick.
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On August 12 2011 12:54 dabom88 wrote:
HERE'S A QUESTION TO NASL:
If you say that 2000 dollars should "more than cover" the expenses... then why not just agree to cover all the expenses? It would cost you less than 2000 dollars shouldn't it?
Really, if you claim that the offer is reasonable and that it should cover the player's expenses, why NOT just cover the player's expenses?
Think about it. If I told you I'll cover all your expenses, what's to stop you from not booking the most expensive hotel?
What's to give you motivation of booking your flight on time and not last minute?
What's to stop you from making claims that your dog had to travel first class because he puts your mind at ease and makes you play better?
I'm presuming NASL is on a strict budget, being such a young company. A company on a strict budget always sets limits, because finances are a lot less flexible. There is no room for a few thousand dollars of lost money that could have been prevented. Any dollar right now could be used in some important way.
Everyone is talking about can the players and teams afford it, but I have not yet seen the question can NASL afford it? I honestly don't think they can, because I think they would have brought the Koreans otherwise.
And I think it's in their best interest to spend all of the money investing in the tournament...equipment, employees, production, rather than this. I think that responsibility really falls on the teams...isn't the purpose of having an organized team so that the players play and the management looks for sponsors to fund the team and the players? I really don't understand why the SC2Con thought that responsibility belongs to NASL...NASL has to worry about itself, getting itself funded and sponsored. Nobody is paying for their electricity or their cameras so that they could film the players.
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Mad respect to NASL. Trying to make it work even through disrespectful and dishonorable conduct from the opposition. I suppose if Kespa 2.0 doesn't want to play nice, we just won't be watching them. I'll still be watching NASL this season and loved last season. Keep up the good work for eSports!
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EPT
