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On August 12 2011 19:18 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 19:02 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 19:00 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:54 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season. To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed. On August 12 2011 18:35 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:31 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season. To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time. I don't get your argument. I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying. They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there. On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2. On August 12 2011 18:39 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
[quote]
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for? ^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control. With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply. Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament. If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then. Again, why is talking about this during the preparation time unreasonable? that's exactly the time to talk about it, there's nothing unreasonable about it. And i think there was enough time fo NASL to comply, but they just couldn't or wouldn't. No contracts were signed, they talked about it, things didn't work out, they withdrew. I don't understand what's wrong with that... The preparation time takes place after the Korean players have qualified for season 2. Its not even about contracts being signed or not. Its about teams having their players go through qualifiers knowing what the terms are only to pull them out later because they don't like the terms. Just don't attempt to qualify. It may have been long enough if the communication was perfect, but clearly it was not. NASL had to go through Mr. Chae for this whole thing as sc2con wasn't communicating with them. NASL made up a plan and it took sc2con awhile to reject it. Teams don't actually know what the terms are until contracts are set. That's the point of the contract to actually set the terms for what the players and organizations will do. Because of the fact that there was actually NO time scheduled between season 1 and qualifiers for any sort of complaint to be voiced, I don't see how that doesn't fall on NASL for poor scheduling. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:09 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 19:03 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 19:00 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:54 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season. To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed. On August 12 2011 18:35 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:31 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season. To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time. I don't get your argument. I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying. They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there. On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2. On August 12 2011 18:39 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
[quote]
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for? ^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control. With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply. Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament. If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then. Read my post. It's standard procedure to talk about this stuff at during the offseason. If NASL wanted more time, they should have scheduled more time. If Koreans made a big fuss about lag and scheduling during the tournament, it would have been seen as excuses and whining which would have cast a shadow on their play. They did the right thing by complaining when they were supposed to...it's not their problem that scheduling didn't allow for a bigger window. Standard procedure where? NASL is not other organizations. Koreans making a fuss about lag and scheduling to the tournament admins doesn't get viewed as excuses as it shouldn't ever be in the public. This should all take place behind closed doors as it doesnt involve the public. Why not? It's part of their demands and grievances and it's up to the organizer to address that. Your stance on keeping things behind closed doors is no different from our stance on the offseason or contract issues. The world doesn't cater to the event organizer, the event organizer caters to the world. It's up to them to make things happen or find alternatives, not up to everyone to play nice and bend over.
Terms were very similar to that of season 1. They had a good idea of what the terms would be. The travel expenses, the biggest problem here, was known since the previous season.
And you keep it behind closed doors so people don't view you as whiners about lag and stuff. They had no problem going to NASL admins behind closed doors with this issue. We are only finding out about this because the teams have left. The public finds out the issues and changes after they are resolved. Seriously, why would they go to the public? There is no reason to.
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So who will be replacing them? I dont have time to read through all the 121 pages 
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On August 12 2011 19:25 Titorelli wrote:So who will be replacing them? I dont have time to read through all the 121 pages
unknown right now
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Its ok - I never watch NASL anyway due to a combination of factors - and this only adds to it.
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On August 12 2011 19:11 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:05 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 19:03 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:56 Novalisk wrote:On August 12 2011 18:50 jmbthirteen wrote:
Total amount of money won by Koreans (on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $84,500
Average earnings per Korean(on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $10,562.50
Only Zenio, Boxer and Alive won the minimum $500 prize for 9-16th. The next two lowest finishers of the Koreans were Squirtle and Moon who both made $1,500. July won $5,000. MC won $25,000 and Puma won $50,000
Of teams that went:
TSL won $50,500
oGs won $25,500
ST won $6,500
Fox won $1,500
Slayers won $500
I would say the Koreans made out pretty damn well on average from NASL. Teams should have in their contracts with players (if they have contracts... thats another discussion) that they receive a certain percentage of their players winnings. Teams definitely can make money off of NASL participation. Keep in mind there is more to this than prize money. Most Korean teams don't have worldwide sponsors, and the korean-brand sponsors have no incentive to send the players abroad. If anything they'd prefer their players to keep a regular sleep schedule, so their GSL performance stays unhindered. Of course there is. But thats why teams should be taking a portion of the winnings. Foreign teams do this. I remember Idra talking about this and how EG does receive a portion of his winnings. Its a pretty standard thing. I completely understand why Korean teams are not playing in NASL. They can't afford to. Thats fine. But I think its ridiculous to ask NASL to pay for them to be in it. I also think its ridiculous that they went and qualified for the tournament only to drop out right at the start of the season. Then it should also be ridiculous that they had to play in sub par conditions throughout online phase as well as not be given time to voice complaints. Think for a second about the implications that would have for the tournament if they made a big stink about scheduling and latency and pay while everyone was still playing. You can complain whenever the hell you want to. You just don't make the complaints public. You go to Xeris and Russ, the tournament admins, and try to come up with a solution. You think the NFL and the NFLPA didn't have talks during the season about their dispute? They did. You should constantly be working to better your conditions, not just in the off season, especially when its so short. How is NASL supposed to know that the Korean teams are broke and have no money to fly to the Finals? Agreeing to join the tournament is implying that they do have the funds.
Playing qualifiers =/= committing to a 3 month long tournament. Especially without a contract. The only commitment for playing qualifiers is the entry fee. There were complaints throughout the tournament from players and representatives concerning scheduling. When July took his first no show victory after preparing at 4am, it was noted by his reps. When Strelok was stood up because of scheduling conflicts, he complained about that too. Things like this were well known to NASL staff. Right now, the Koreans complained, NASL and Koreans couldn't solve the issue, the Koreans pulled out. That's all there is.
On August 12 2011 19:15 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 19:02 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 19:00 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:54 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season. To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed. On August 12 2011 18:35 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:31 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season. To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time. I don't get your argument. I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying. They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there. On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2. On August 12 2011 18:39 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
[quote]
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for? ^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control. With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply. Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament. If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then. Again, why is talking about this during the preparation time unreasonable? that's exactly the time to talk about it, there's nothing unreasonable about it. And i think there was enough time fo NASL to comply, but they just couldn't or wouldn't. No contracts were signed, they talked about it, things didn't work out, they withdrew. I don't understand what's wrong with that... The preparation time takes place after the Korean players have qualified for season 2. Its not even about contracts being signed or not. Its about teams having their players go through qualifiers knowing what the terms are only to pull them out later because they don't like the terms. Just don't attempt to qualify. It may have been long enough if the communication was perfect, but clearly it was not. NASL had to go through Mr. Chae for this whole thing as sc2con wasn't communicating with them. NASL made up a plan and it took sc2con awhile to reject it. How is Dr. Chae being the communication source "sc2con not communicating?" Dr. Chae is in charge of almost all foreign tournament relations and is in charge of GSL, he was communicating for sc2con. Saying they didn't communicate because they talked through a mediator is stupid. (also they may have talked through dr. chae due to language problems) They qualified, talked about the terms before season started/contracts were signed, withdrew. What's the problem here? I think you're giving qualification more meaning than it carries..
I think that's the biggest problem jmb has here. The only commitment that qualification carries is the entry fee. Whether or not you choose to participate afterward is entirely up to you and if you don't, the organizer should have a contingency.
On August 12 2011 19:16 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 18:05 IceDice wrote:
Are the european and other non-US players getting their trips paid for ?
No reason to give the korean players special treatment if you ask me. No they're not. And I agree with you
I agree with you too but you need to stop ignoring the fact that Koreans were treated especially badly in comparison to EU/NA players in season 1.
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The problem is the following: the prize money goes to the player, the team pays the trip.
Hence the team comes out with a deficit and they don't see why they should pay to let their players compete in a grand finals of which they have already earned a spot in the previous 3 months.
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On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
While this does mean that NASL Season 2 will be slightly delayed, we remain steadfast in our commitment to eSports – we will broadcast high quality games every day and bring you some of the very best play the world has to offer.
without the major korean teams (although i like fou a lot)
kinda doubt it
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this is wonderful news actually.
please focus on the North American scene with 25% EU invites. Thats it.
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On August 12 2011 19:23 Abdool wrote:According to FXOBoSs, the real reason for the Koreans to pull back is not financial reasons as it is obvious that NASL offered a very good deal, but rather for an disclosed reason. FXOBoSs just said that on his twitch TV stream ( http://www.twitch.tv/FXOBoSs)while he him self is a part of the SC2Con. About FXOSC, he said that SC really wants to participate, but as a part of SC2Con BoSs said that SC cannot participate, but there is still hope for SC as he will talk to the SC2Con and see if they will agree on that. FXOBoSs talks about all sort of stuff about SC2 and easports in general. I personally love listening to his comments and opinions.
And this is what really bothers me. Quite frankly not allowing any player to play, especially when his team can afford it (i bet oGs can afford to send MC, especially with the SK deal) is bull shit.
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On August 12 2011 19:23 GurZtly wrote:
To all who say "I will not watch season 2" or whatever... What a joke. I mean "our" players. The Foreigners, but I want to call them european and american, they give much for playing sc2, they also train hard for all of this. But they don´t get any special treatment. You read a list of tournament participations. When theres a korean name you go " Oh a korean, i want to watch this oh they are so fucking good." and then you readt those other names like IdRa, Select, Naniwa, and Thorzain and you say " Ah okay, same as everyday.
Why should we give these douchebags money for all costs. If they don´t want to participate its their thing. I think this is really bad for our players and I don´t think we should accept things like giving the korean super special VIP treatment just because we want to see them. Give some foreign support...
Totally agreed, I'm behind NASL 100%, they've been extremely reasonable in trying to help the Korean players get over, but it apparently isn't enough. I don't care how fucking good they are, they do not deserve special treatment over anyone else. I love the Korean players, but I also enjoy the foreign scene and will have no problem watching NASL season 2.
Good Luck with your second Season, NASL crew
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The EU has a lot of good players who can beat top korean from time to time. Look at the assembly, Nada had nearly no chance. The big problem is the situation in NA. Only few good players like Idra, Select or Huk.
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On August 12 2011 19:26 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:11 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 19:05 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 19:03 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:56 Novalisk wrote:On August 12 2011 18:50 jmbthirteen wrote:
Total amount of money won by Koreans (on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $84,500
Average earnings per Korean(on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $10,562.50
Only Zenio, Boxer and Alive won the minimum $500 prize for 9-16th. The next two lowest finishers of the Koreans were Squirtle and Moon who both made $1,500. July won $5,000. MC won $25,000 and Puma won $50,000
Of teams that went:
TSL won $50,500
oGs won $25,500
ST won $6,500
Fox won $1,500
Slayers won $500
I would say the Koreans made out pretty damn well on average from NASL. Teams should have in their contracts with players (if they have contracts... thats another discussion) that they receive a certain percentage of their players winnings. Teams definitely can make money off of NASL participation. Keep in mind there is more to this than prize money. Most Korean teams don't have worldwide sponsors, and the korean-brand sponsors have no incentive to send the players abroad. If anything they'd prefer their players to keep a regular sleep schedule, so their GSL performance stays unhindered. Of course there is. But thats why teams should be taking a portion of the winnings. Foreign teams do this. I remember Idra talking about this and how EG does receive a portion of his winnings. Its a pretty standard thing. I completely understand why Korean teams are not playing in NASL. They can't afford to. Thats fine. But I think its ridiculous to ask NASL to pay for them to be in it. I also think its ridiculous that they went and qualified for the tournament only to drop out right at the start of the season. Then it should also be ridiculous that they had to play in sub par conditions throughout online phase as well as not be given time to voice complaints. Think for a second about the implications that would have for the tournament if they made a big stink about scheduling and latency and pay while everyone was still playing. You can complain whenever the hell you want to. You just don't make the complaints public. You go to Xeris and Russ, the tournament admins, and try to come up with a solution. You think the NFL and the NFLPA didn't have talks during the season about their dispute? They did. You should constantly be working to better your conditions, not just in the off season, especially when its so short. How is NASL supposed to know that the Korean teams are broke and have no money to fly to the Finals? Agreeing to join the tournament is implying that they do have the funds. Playing qualifiers =/= committing to a 3 month long tournament. Especially without a contract. The only commitment for playing qualifiers is the entry fee. There were complaints throughout the tournament from players and representatives concerning scheduling. When July took his first no show victory after preparing at 4am, it was noted by his reps. When Strelok was stood up because of scheduling conflicts, he complained about that too. Things like this were well known to NASL staff. Right now, the Koreans complained, NASL and Koreans couldn't solve the issue, the Koreans pulled out. That's all there is. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:15 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 19:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 19:02 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 19:00 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:54 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
[quote]
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed. On August 12 2011 18:35 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:31 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
[quote]
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time. I don't get your argument. I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying. They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there. On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
[quote]
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2. On August 12 2011 18:39 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for? ^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control. With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply. Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament. If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then. Again, why is talking about this during the preparation time unreasonable? that's exactly the time to talk about it, there's nothing unreasonable about it. And i think there was enough time fo NASL to comply, but they just couldn't or wouldn't. No contracts were signed, they talked about it, things didn't work out, they withdrew. I don't understand what's wrong with that... The preparation time takes place after the Korean players have qualified for season 2. Its not even about contracts being signed or not. Its about teams having their players go through qualifiers knowing what the terms are only to pull them out later because they don't like the terms. Just don't attempt to qualify. It may have been long enough if the communication was perfect, but clearly it was not. NASL had to go through Mr. Chae for this whole thing as sc2con wasn't communicating with them. NASL made up a plan and it took sc2con awhile to reject it. How is Dr. Chae being the communication source "sc2con not communicating?" Dr. Chae is in charge of almost all foreign tournament relations and is in charge of GSL, he was communicating for sc2con. Saying they didn't communicate because they talked through a mediator is stupid. (also they may have talked through dr. chae due to language problems) They qualified, talked about the terms before season started/contracts were signed, withdrew. What's the problem here? I think you're giving qualification more meaning than it carries.. I think that's the biggest problem jmb has here. The only commitment that qualification carries is the entry fee. Whether or not you choose to participate afterward is entirely up to you and if you don't, the organizer should have a contingency. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:16 AxionSteel wrote:On August 12 2011 18:05 IceDice wrote:
Are the european and other non-US players getting their trips paid for ?
No reason to give the korean players special treatment if you ask me. No they're not. And I agree with you I agree with you too but you need to stop ignoring the fact that Koreans were treated especially badly in comparison to EU/NA players in season 1.
Do you realize how dumb that sounds. Oh I'm going to try and qualify for this tournament, knowing that its three months long and all, but if I qualify I don't know if I will actually play in it. Why are you qualifying for a tournament you might not want to play in? Thats a waste of everyone's time and money.
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On August 12 2011 08:09 FabledIntegral wrote:
Wowow. Really? Man, that sucks. $2,000 stipend and they STILL say no? And it's not like it's unlikely they'll make the Ro8, that's even more money to pay it off, right?
Guess players like PuMa could play though since he's staying in the U.S. and I presume EG would cover the costs?
I dont know what it costs them to fly to the US but when I fly from Japan the cheapest tickets somtimes exceed 2500$.
Also, it proboably has to do with the time when the games are being played resulting in Players harving to play games 4-5 in the morning.
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Sorry for the off topic, but i really want to know were such offers made to top EU players ? I also feel that Korean pro gamers are much more fun to watch and most of the times at a completely different skill level, but it's not good to further the division between Korean and foreign players. I honestly believe that money must be thrown at US and EU and so called 'foreign' players so they can start to compete at Korean level sooner. And also i guess the same ruleset must apply for foreign tournaments as the rules for foreigners that want to compete in GSL so it will be equal Just what i think guys.
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On August 12 2011 19:12 isbunk wrote:
def. not buying this time, or even watching for that matter.
I actually feel more motivated to buy a Nasl season ticket this time.
Don't like this Korean action at all, really feels like Kespa 2.0
A while ago they complained there was only GSL in Korea and not many other tournaments. Now there is a whole new league but it's not how we want it so we won't join!
I also wonder what TL's stance is in all this.
TL boycotted NASL before and now their partner OGS does the same.
I thought SC2 going global is a big goal of both TL and NASL, so why not support new inititives like NASL, with all the start up problems, as much as possible.
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the north american star league is north american now?! GOD FORBID
ok not quite because theres still eu etc... but still
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well it is kinda sad, on the other hand it makes it (for me) more interesting for they "maybe" wont be a total korean dominance.
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For those of you that would like to see the 12 posts about this from xeris in this thread, simply go to the original post, click PROFILE at the top right of the nasl.tv post, then click the post count (27). this will then show all posts made by xeris. simply click the post number to be directed to it.
hope this helps those of you arguing atm
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On August 12 2011 19:19 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:15 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 19:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 19:02 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 19:00 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:54 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
[quote]
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed. On August 12 2011 18:35 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:31 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
[quote]
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time. I don't get your argument. I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying. They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there. On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
[quote]
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2. On August 12 2011 18:39 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for? ^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control. With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply. Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament. If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then. Again, why is talking about this during the preparation time unreasonable? that's exactly the time to talk about it, there's nothing unreasonable about it. And i think there was enough time fo NASL to comply, but they just couldn't or wouldn't. No contracts were signed, they talked about it, things didn't work out, they withdrew. I don't understand what's wrong with that... The preparation time takes place after the Korean players have qualified for season 2. Its not even about contracts being signed or not. Its about teams having their players go through qualifiers knowing what the terms are only to pull them out later because they don't like the terms. Just don't attempt to qualify. It may have been long enough if the communication was perfect, but clearly it was not. NASL had to go through Mr. Chae for this whole thing as sc2con wasn't communicating with them. NASL made up a plan and it took sc2con awhile to reject it. How is Dr. Chae being the communication source "sc2con not communicating?" Dr. Chae is in charge of almost all foreign tournament relations and is in charge of GSL, he was communicating for sc2con. Saying they didn't communicate because they talked through a mediator is stupid. (also they may have talked through dr. chae due to language problems) They qualified, talked about the terms before season started/contracts were signed, withdrew. What's the problem here? I think you're giving qualification more meaning than it carries.. It screwed over players in the qualifiers and lost to those who qualified. It screws over the players who qualified for NASL (the Korean players) that wanted to play in NASL. It screws over NASL as they have to fix all this shit now.
Then blame NASL for not scheduling properly, not having contracts ready, and not having a contingency. Again, the Koreans may have offended you with this move but the reality is, given what we know about the situation, they're not actually in the wrong and it's NASL that dropped the ball.
On August 12 2011 19:19 ReboundEU wrote:
I really think they are a bit full of them selves. The conditions offered by NASL are way better then others get. Even if they are the best players...treating this issue like they own the planet is just unacceptable...
After a few tournaments when they will see prize polls will go up and more competition will appear outside Korea, they will be begging to come back, considering they rules + money in Korea is almost 0 compared to what u can get outside.
If they treat this issue like how they treated NASL, i foresee alot of korean players joining foreign teams in the end, which will make the quality of GSL go down even further.
Now GSL is only held by a handful of players that attract attention.
Are you kidding me? It's way worse than at any other major combined event. And the conditions offered by NASL are equal for all players. $1000 for top 16 finish, another $1000 travel stipend. If travel stipend not enough, they can use their own winnings. That's all they offered. While it may be better than having to pay your way to a LAN, it doesn't take into account the fact that the Koreans have to endure 3 months of terrible scheduling and latency problems to even get that far. GSL doesn't have that. MLG doesn't have that. Neither does IEM, Dreamhack, etc and maybe that's why Koreans don't mind attending those out of their own pocket for smaller prize pools.
On August 12 2011 19:23 GurZtly wrote:
To all who say "I will not watch season 2" or whatever... What a joke. I mean "our" players. The Foreigners, but I want to call them european and american, they give much for playing sc2, they also train hard for all of this. But they don´t get any special treatment. You read a list of tournament participations. When theres a korean name you go " Oh a korean, i want to watch this oh they are so fucking good." and then you readt those other names like IdRa, Select, Naniwa, and Thorzain and you say " Ah okay, same as everyday.
Why should we give these douchebags money for all costs. If they don´t want to participate its their thing. I think this is really bad for our players and I don´t think we should accept things like giving the korean super special VIP treatment just because we want to see them. Give some foreign support...
I'm here to watch starcraft 2, not here to root for foreigners or Koreans. I'll watch and root for my favorite players, but outside of those select few, my attention will be where the talent is at. Not to mention, I don't understand how people cheer for players that are not dedicated as much, don't practice as much, don't practice as hard, and are not as good, solely because they are foreigners. At least with sports, the home team might be losers but they care just as much as the winners and they try just as hard.
On August 12 2011 19:24 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:18 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 19:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 19:02 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 19:00 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:54 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
[quote]
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed. On August 12 2011 18:35 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:31 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
[quote]
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time. I don't get your argument. I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying. They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there. On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
[quote]
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2. On August 12 2011 18:39 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for? ^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control. With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply. Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament. If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then. Again, why is talking about this during the preparation time unreasonable? that's exactly the time to talk about it, there's nothing unreasonable about it. And i think there was enough time fo NASL to comply, but they just couldn't or wouldn't. No contracts were signed, they talked about it, things didn't work out, they withdrew. I don't understand what's wrong with that... The preparation time takes place after the Korean players have qualified for season 2. Its not even about contracts being signed or not. Its about teams having their players go through qualifiers knowing what the terms are only to pull them out later because they don't like the terms. Just don't attempt to qualify. It may have been long enough if the communication was perfect, but clearly it was not. NASL had to go through Mr. Chae for this whole thing as sc2con wasn't communicating with them. NASL made up a plan and it took sc2con awhile to reject it. Teams don't actually know what the terms are until contracts are set. That's the point of the contract to actually set the terms for what the players and organizations will do. Because of the fact that there was actually NO time scheduled between season 1 and qualifiers for any sort of complaint to be voiced, I don't see how that doesn't fall on NASL for poor scheduling. On August 12 2011 19:09 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 19:03 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 19:00 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:54 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
[quote]
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed. On August 12 2011 18:35 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:31 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
[quote]
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify? Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time. I don't get your argument. I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying. They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there. On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
[quote]
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1? They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2. On August 12 2011 18:39 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then. i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began. I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for? ^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control. With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply. Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament. If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then. Read my post. It's standard procedure to talk about this stuff at during the offseason. If NASL wanted more time, they should have scheduled more time. If Koreans made a big fuss about lag and scheduling during the tournament, it would have been seen as excuses and whining which would have cast a shadow on their play. They did the right thing by complaining when they were supposed to...it's not their problem that scheduling didn't allow for a bigger window. Standard procedure where? NASL is not other organizations. Koreans making a fuss about lag and scheduling to the tournament admins doesn't get viewed as excuses as it shouldn't ever be in the public. This should all take place behind closed doors as it doesnt involve the public. Why not? It's part of their demands and grievances and it's up to the organizer to address that. Your stance on keeping things behind closed doors is no different from our stance on the offseason or contract issues. The world doesn't cater to the event organizer, the event organizer caters to the world. It's up to them to make things happen or find alternatives, not up to everyone to play nice and bend over. Terms were very similar to that of season 1. They had a good idea of what the terms would be. The travel expenses, the biggest problem here, was known since the previous season. And you keep it behind closed doors so people don't view you as whiners about lag and stuff. They had no problem going to NASL admins behind closed doors with this issue. We are only finding out about this because the teams have left. The public finds out the issues and changes after they are resolved. Seriously, why would they go to the public? There is no reason to.
Terms were not agreed upon for season 2. They're only agreed upon once the contract is signed. No contract = they went into the tournament knowing that they will have negotiations and when that fell through, they walked. That's the biggest problem.
On August 12 2011 19:27 decemberTV wrote:
this is wonderful news actually.
please focus on the North American scene with 25% EU invites. Thats it.
That's terrible news, it sucks for up and coming Koreans who won't get to showcase their skills, it sucks for fans that they won't see the best SC2 available, and it sucks for the foreign scene that they won't get to compete against the best in order to better themselves.
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whatever, who cares if korea plays? THORZAIN will win anyway!
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EPT
