EPTOn August 12 2011 19:52 jmbthirteen wrote:
If you don't want to commit or aren't sure about about committing to something you shouldn't do it. You don't fucking ask a girl to marry you and then break it off because you suddenly decide you don't want to commit. And if you do, its a dick move.
FXOBoss is saying there is more to this. I am eager to hear what it is. I think this is shitty for all sides, NASL, Korean teams, players and fans.
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On August 12 2011 19:44 tripper688 wrote:
I think it was posted that oGs was one of the teams with gripes.
It's not dumb at all. They're not going into the qualifiers going "Oh I don't know if I want to commit to this." They're going in with the notion of "Oh I'll qualify for this tourney and hopefully I won't have to deal with the Season 1 BS." It's no less dumb than saying "Oh I'll start a tournament but I won't have any contracts for a third of my players and I'll just pray they go along with everything."
On August 12 2011 19:27 jmbthirteen wrote:
And this is what really bothers me. Quite frankly not allowing any player to play, especially when his team can afford it (i bet oGs can afford to send MC, especially with the SK deal) is bull shit.
On August 12 2011 19:23 Abdool wrote:
According to FXOBoSs, the real reason for the Koreans to pull back is not financial reasons as it is obvious that NASL offered a very good deal, but rather for an disclosed reason. FXOBoSs just said that on his twitch TV stream ( http://www.twitch.tv/FXOBoSs)while he him self is a part of the SC2Con.
About FXOSC, he said that SC really wants to participate, but as a part of SC2Con BoSs said that SC cannot participate, but there is still hope for SC as he will talk to the SC2Con and see if they will agree on that.
FXOBoSs talks about all sort of stuff about SC2 and easports in general. I personally love listening to his comments and opinions.
According to FXOBoSs, the real reason for the Koreans to pull back is not financial reasons as it is obvious that NASL offered a very good deal, but rather for an disclosed reason. FXOBoSs just said that on his twitch TV stream ( http://www.twitch.tv/FXOBoSs)while he him self is a part of the SC2Con.
About FXOSC, he said that SC really wants to participate, but as a part of SC2Con BoSs said that SC cannot participate, but there is still hope for SC as he will talk to the SC2Con and see if they will agree on that.
FXOBoSs talks about all sort of stuff about SC2 and easports in general. I personally love listening to his comments and opinions.
And this is what really bothers me. Quite frankly not allowing any player to play, especially when his team can afford it (i bet oGs can afford to send MC, especially with the SK deal) is bull shit.
I think it was posted that oGs was one of the teams with gripes.
On August 12 2011 19:30 jmbthirteen wrote:
Do you realize how dumb that sounds. Oh I'm going to try and qualify for this tournament, knowing that its three months long and all, but if I qualify I don't know if I will actually play in it. Why are you qualifying for a tournament you might not want to play in? Thats a waste of everyone's time and money.
On August 12 2011 19:26 tripper688 wrote:
Playing qualifiers =/= committing to a 3 month long tournament. Especially without a contract. The only commitment for playing qualifiers is the entry fee. There were complaints throughout the tournament from players and representatives concerning scheduling. When July took his first no show victory after preparing at 4am, it was noted by his reps. When Strelok was stood up because of scheduling conflicts, he complained about that too. Things like this were well known to NASL staff. Right now, the Koreans complained, NASL and Koreans couldn't solve the issue, the Koreans pulled out. That's all there is.
I think that's the biggest problem jmb has here. The only commitment that qualification carries is the entry fee. Whether or not you choose to participate afterward is entirely up to you and if you don't, the organizer should have a contingency.
I agree with you too but you need to stop ignoring the fact that Koreans were treated especially badly in comparison to EU/NA players in season 1.
On August 12 2011 19:11 jmbthirteen wrote:
You can complain whenever the hell you want to. You just don't make the complaints public. You go to Xeris and Russ, the tournament admins, and try to come up with a solution. You think the NFL and the NFLPA didn't have talks during the season about their dispute? They did. You should constantly be working to better your conditions, not just in the off season, especially when its so short. How is NASL supposed to know that the Korean teams are broke and have no money to fly to the Finals? Agreeing to join the tournament is implying that they do have the funds.
On August 12 2011 19:05 tripper688 wrote:
Then it should also be ridiculous that they had to play in sub par conditions throughout online phase as well as not be given time to voice complaints. Think for a second about the implications that would have for the tournament if they made a big stink about scheduling and latency and pay while everyone was still playing.
On August 12 2011 19:03 jmbthirteen wrote:
Of course there is. But thats why teams should be taking a portion of the winnings. Foreign teams do this. I remember Idra talking about this and how EG does receive a portion of his winnings. Its a pretty standard thing.
I completely understand why Korean teams are not playing in NASL. They can't afford to. Thats fine. But I think its ridiculous to ask NASL to pay for them to be in it. I also think its ridiculous that they went and qualified for the tournament only to drop out right at the start of the season.
On August 12 2011 18:56 Novalisk wrote:
Keep in mind there is more to this than prize money. Most Korean teams don't have worldwide sponsors, and the korean-brand sponsors have no incentive to send the players abroad. If anything they'd prefer their players to keep a regular sleep schedule, so their GSL performance stays unhindered.
On August 12 2011 18:50 jmbthirteen wrote:
Total amount of money won by Koreans (on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $84,500
Average earnings per Korean(on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $10,562.50
Only Zenio, Boxer and Alive won the minimum $500 prize for 9-16th. The next two lowest finishers of the Koreans were Squirtle and Moon who both made $1,500. July won $5,000. MC won $25,000 and Puma won $50,000
Of teams that went:
TSL won $50,500
oGs won $25,500
ST won $6,500
Fox won $1,500
Slayers won $500
I would say the Koreans made out pretty damn well on average from NASL. Teams should have in their contracts with players (if they have contracts... thats another discussion) that they receive a certain percentage of their players winnings. Teams definitely can make money off of NASL participation.
Total amount of money won by Koreans (on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $84,500
Average earnings per Korean(on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $10,562.50
Only Zenio, Boxer and Alive won the minimum $500 prize for 9-16th. The next two lowest finishers of the Koreans were Squirtle and Moon who both made $1,500. July won $5,000. MC won $25,000 and Puma won $50,000
Of teams that went:
TSL won $50,500
oGs won $25,500
ST won $6,500
Fox won $1,500
Slayers won $500
I would say the Koreans made out pretty damn well on average from NASL. Teams should have in their contracts with players (if they have contracts... thats another discussion) that they receive a certain percentage of their players winnings. Teams definitely can make money off of NASL participation.
Keep in mind there is more to this than prize money. Most Korean teams don't have worldwide sponsors, and the korean-brand sponsors have no incentive to send the players abroad. If anything they'd prefer their players to keep a regular sleep schedule, so their GSL performance stays unhindered.
Of course there is. But thats why teams should be taking a portion of the winnings. Foreign teams do this. I remember Idra talking about this and how EG does receive a portion of his winnings. Its a pretty standard thing.
I completely understand why Korean teams are not playing in NASL. They can't afford to. Thats fine. But I think its ridiculous to ask NASL to pay for them to be in it. I also think its ridiculous that they went and qualified for the tournament only to drop out right at the start of the season.
Then it should also be ridiculous that they had to play in sub par conditions throughout online phase as well as not be given time to voice complaints. Think for a second about the implications that would have for the tournament if they made a big stink about scheduling and latency and pay while everyone was still playing.
You can complain whenever the hell you want to. You just don't make the complaints public. You go to Xeris and Russ, the tournament admins, and try to come up with a solution. You think the NFL and the NFLPA didn't have talks during the season about their dispute? They did. You should constantly be working to better your conditions, not just in the off season, especially when its so short. How is NASL supposed to know that the Korean teams are broke and have no money to fly to the Finals? Agreeing to join the tournament is implying that they do have the funds.
Playing qualifiers =/= committing to a 3 month long tournament. Especially without a contract. The only commitment for playing qualifiers is the entry fee. There were complaints throughout the tournament from players and representatives concerning scheduling. When July took his first no show victory after preparing at 4am, it was noted by his reps. When Strelok was stood up because of scheduling conflicts, he complained about that too. Things like this were well known to NASL staff. Right now, the Koreans complained, NASL and Koreans couldn't solve the issue, the Koreans pulled out. That's all there is.
On August 12 2011 19:15 Namu wrote:
How is Dr. Chae being the communication source "sc2con not communicating?" Dr. Chae is in charge of almost all foreign tournament relations and is in charge of GSL, he was communicating for sc2con. Saying they didn't communicate because they talked through a mediator is stupid. (also they may have talked through dr. chae due to language problems)
They qualified, talked about the terms before season started/contracts were signed, withdrew. What's the problem here? I think you're giving qualification more meaning than it carries..
On August 12 2011 19:07 jmbthirteen wrote:
The preparation time takes place after the Korean players have qualified for season 2. Its not even about contracts being signed or not. Its about teams having their players go through qualifiers knowing what the terms are only to pull them out later because they don't like the terms. Just don't attempt to qualify.
It may have been long enough if the communication was perfect, but clearly it was not. NASL had to go through Mr. Chae for this whole thing as sc2con wasn't communicating with them. NASL made up a plan and it took sc2con awhile to reject it.
On August 12 2011 19:02 Namu wrote:
Again, why is talking about this during the preparation time unreasonable? that's exactly the time to talk about it, there's nothing unreasonable about it. And i think there was enough time fo NASL to comply, but they just couldn't or wouldn't. No contracts were signed, they talked about it, things didn't work out, they withdrew. I don't understand what's wrong with that...
On August 12 2011 19:00 jmbthirteen wrote:
With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply.
Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament.
If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then.
On August 12 2011 18:54 tripper688 wrote:
They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed.
They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there.
Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2.
^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control.
On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
[quote]
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed.
On August 12 2011 18:35 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying.
[quote]
I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying.
They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there.
On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began.
[quote]
they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began.
Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2.
On August 12 2011 18:39 Namu wrote:
[quote]
I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for?
[quote]
I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for?
^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control.
With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply.
Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament.
If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then.
Again, why is talking about this during the preparation time unreasonable? that's exactly the time to talk about it, there's nothing unreasonable about it. And i think there was enough time fo NASL to comply, but they just couldn't or wouldn't. No contracts were signed, they talked about it, things didn't work out, they withdrew. I don't understand what's wrong with that...
The preparation time takes place after the Korean players have qualified for season 2. Its not even about contracts being signed or not. Its about teams having their players go through qualifiers knowing what the terms are only to pull them out later because they don't like the terms. Just don't attempt to qualify.
It may have been long enough if the communication was perfect, but clearly it was not. NASL had to go through Mr. Chae for this whole thing as sc2con wasn't communicating with them. NASL made up a plan and it took sc2con awhile to reject it.
How is Dr. Chae being the communication source "sc2con not communicating?" Dr. Chae is in charge of almost all foreign tournament relations and is in charge of GSL, he was communicating for sc2con. Saying they didn't communicate because they talked through a mediator is stupid. (also they may have talked through dr. chae due to language problems)
They qualified, talked about the terms before season started/contracts were signed, withdrew. What's the problem here? I think you're giving qualification more meaning than it carries..
I think that's the biggest problem jmb has here. The only commitment that qualification carries is the entry fee. Whether or not you choose to participate afterward is entirely up to you and if you don't, the organizer should have a contingency.
On August 12 2011 19:16 AxionSteel wrote:
No they're not. And I agree with you
On August 12 2011 18:05 IceDice wrote:
Are the european and other non-US players getting their trips paid for ?
No reason to give the korean players special treatment if you ask me.
Are the european and other non-US players getting their trips paid for ?
No reason to give the korean players special treatment if you ask me.
No they're not. And I agree with you
I agree with you too but you need to stop ignoring the fact that Koreans were treated especially badly in comparison to EU/NA players in season 1.
Do you realize how dumb that sounds. Oh I'm going to try and qualify for this tournament, knowing that its three months long and all, but if I qualify I don't know if I will actually play in it. Why are you qualifying for a tournament you might not want to play in? Thats a waste of everyone's time and money.
It's not dumb at all. They're not going into the qualifiers going "Oh I don't know if I want to commit to this." They're going in with the notion of "Oh I'll qualify for this tourney and hopefully I won't have to deal with the Season 1 BS." It's no less dumb than saying "Oh I'll start a tournament but I won't have any contracts for a third of my players and I'll just pray they go along with everything."
If you don't want to commit or aren't sure about about committing to something you shouldn't do it. You don't fucking ask a girl to marry you and then break it off because you suddenly decide you don't want to commit. And if you do, its a dick move.
FXOBoss is saying there is more to this. I am eager to hear what it is. I think this is shitty for all sides, NASL, Korean teams, players and fans.
This is more like, you start getting interested in a girl, girl asks you to marry, you're not ready so you don't go all in. Qualifiers carry next to no commitment. I don't get why you don't understand that. Just because you say you're available and the guys in Sweden invite you to Dreamhack, it doesn't mean you have to attend when the time comes to sign the contract and you find out it's not to your liking. IdrA jumped ship on GSL right before code S, and that was completely fine why? Because GOM actually was ready to handle something like that. When a third of the invites couldn't make it to Dreamhack because of scheduling conflicts and illness, that was fine because the organizers were ready with a back up list to handle that too. You can't blame the participants for backing out of something they were never obligated to doing while ignoring the fact that the organizers didn't even have all the pieces in place for the tournament to start.
