So.. 9 replacements from the first two and some sort of playoff for the last spots? Or maybe just from the S2 qualifier?
wow, those names all look terrible (no disrespect to the players) and won't make the NASL attractive to watch. Let's hope the new players will be invited rather than selected on these qualifiers and stuff. Players who should have been in in the first place, and players who will bring viewers and wont go 0-8.
So.. 9 replacements from the first two and some sort of playoff for the last spots? Or maybe just from the S2 qualifier?
wow, those names all look terrible (no disrespect to the players) and won't make the NASL attractive to watch. Let's hope the new players will be invited rather than selected on these qualifiers and stuff. Players who should have been in in the first place, and players who will bring viewers and wont go 0-8.
On August 12 2011 18:11 Namu wrote: It seems really odd... a 2000 dollar traveling stipend really seems like enough. I'm guessing there are other reasons the korean players withdrew. Kinda sucks...
Well I won't be watching NASL this season I guess... the only reason I watched some NASL last season was because of the koreans. Without them, IPL has a much better production quality for me unfortunately
It's not $2000, they're offering $1000 travel stipend. On top of that, NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the Grand Finals and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that $1000 prize. It's asking players to take expenses out of their own prize money.
It's a $1000 travel stipend and a rearrangement of prize money to make it easier for the teams that can't afford to send their players to go by dipping into that prize money. They aren't asking the Koreans to pay out of the prize money, they're doubling the Ro16 prize money to make it easier on players who do need to dip into it in order to go.
That's exactly what I said, don't see why you needed to repeat it.
On August 12 2011 18:27 Saraf wrote:It's a reasonable offer; if they made other accommodations (such as play times) they probably could have worked something out at the negotiating table that doesn't lead to NASL quadrupling Season 1's travel stipend. But SC2con wouldn't even come to the table, or so it seems.
Whether it's reasonable is a subjective argument. I personally don't think it's reasonable. Also, SC2con asked them to pay for full traveling expenses for those that made it to the finals. NASL just wouldn't/couldn't accomodate.
I repeated it because you're spinning it into NASL being the bad guys for giving them that option. It's not as nice as a $2000 travel budget but maybe that's just something NASL can't afford to do. NASL is making that option available to them to ensure that nobody (or no team) loses money by going to the finals like last time (Boxer, Alive, Zenio).
SC2con made a pretty hefty demand of ~$1200 more in travel money per Korean player attending the Finals, which if it's anything like last time will be something like 8-10 (since there were going to be more Koreans this season). That's over $10000 that they wanted from NASL, and NASL offered to give them half plus the other concession. If they'd actually talked to NASL (apparently SC2con wasn't in the business of returning e-mails) then they might have gotten some non-monetary concessions like better scheduling and fixed wait times (no more than an hour, for instance) that made the whole deal more acceptable, or perhaps consented to fines for players who no-showed in lieu of some of the deposit. NASL's response of "we'll give you half to start and let's talk this out" is perfectly reasonable (and if you disagree, please tell me why) from a negotiating standpoint but SC2con would have none of it.
Total amount of money won by Koreans (on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $84,500 Average earnings per Korean(on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $10,562.50
Only Zenio, Boxer and Alive won the minimum $500 prize for 9-16th. The next two lowest finishers of the Koreans were Squirtle and Moon who both made $1,500. July won $5,000. MC won $25,000 and Puma won $50,000
Of teams that went: TSL won $50,500 oGs won $25,500 ST won $6,500 Fox won $1,500 Slayers won $500
I would say the Koreans made out pretty damn well on average from NASL. Teams should have in their contracts with players (if they have contracts... thats another discussion) that they receive a certain percentage of their players winnings. Teams definitely can make money off of NASL participation.
mhhh since rain puma and hero will definitely participate, I also at least hope MC and a few others who could afford to pay the travel themselfes will participate, he won't let easy moneyz go unless Sc2con somehow can forbid him to...
On August 12 2011 18:11 Namu wrote: It seems really odd... a 2000 dollar traveling stipend really seems like enough. I'm guessing there are other reasons the korean players withdrew. Kinda sucks...
Well I won't be watching NASL this season I guess... the only reason I watched some NASL last season was because of the koreans. Without them, IPL has a much better production quality for me unfortunately
It's not $2000, they're offering $1000 travel stipend. On top of that, NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the Grand Finals and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that $1000 prize. It's asking players to take expenses out of their own prize money.
It's a $1000 travel stipend and a rearrangement of prize money to make it easier for the teams that can't afford to send their players to go by dipping into that prize money. They aren't asking the Koreans to pay out of the prize money, they're doubling the Ro16 prize money to make it easier on players who do need to dip into it in order to go.
That's exactly what I said, don't see why you needed to repeat it.
On August 12 2011 18:27 Saraf wrote:It's a reasonable offer; if they made other accommodations (such as play times) they probably could have worked something out at the negotiating table that doesn't lead to NASL quadrupling Season 1's travel stipend. But SC2con wouldn't even come to the table, or so it seems.
Whether it's reasonable is a subjective argument. I personally don't think it's reasonable. Also, SC2con asked them to pay for full traveling expenses for those that made it to the finals. NASL just wouldn't/couldn't accomodate.
I repeated it because you're spinning it into NASL being the bad guys for giving them that option. It's not as nice as a $2000 travel budget but maybe that's just something NASL can't afford to do. NASL is making that option available to them to ensure that nobody (or no team) loses money by going to the finals like last time (Boxer, Alive, Zenio).
SC2con made a pretty hefty demand of ~$1200 more in travel money per Korean player attending the Finals, which if it's anything like last time will be something like 8-10 (since there were going to be more Koreans this season). That's over $10000 that they wanted from NASL, and NASL offered to give them half plus the other concession. If they'd actually talked to NASL (apparently SC2con wasn't in the business of returning e-mails) then they might have gotten some non-monetary concessions like better scheduling and fixed wait times (no more than an hour, for instance) that made the whole deal more acceptable, or perhaps consented to fines for players who no-showed in lieu of some of the deposit. NASL's response of "we'll give you half to start and let's talk this out" is perfectly reasonable (and if you disagree, please tell me why) from a negotiating standpoint but SC2con would have none of it.
Why are you just assuming they weren't returning e-mails and were not willing to talk? Can you give us some source? Without it what you're saying doesn't carry much weight.. as in the original post I see nothing about sc2con not willing to talk about it.
The biggest question I have for NASL or anyone who knows is what type of contract did players sign (if they signed any at all)? Also, if the players/teams really did sign a contract, then its up to NASL to enforce it.
But with the information in the last 10~ pages... I find this to be rather commonplace in professional sports and don't get what the hubbub is about.
Example: Athlete goes to combine and works out, is rated as a high level athlete, gets drafted by a team. After being drafted, athlete/agent negotiate with the team the terms of their contract/deal. If they don't like what the team is offering, they can hold out and refuse to play. They wait until the team gives in to their demand or until they can't hold out any longer.
Why shouldn't the Koreans be able to negotiate their deal with NASL, even after qualifying? I find it rather silly that NASL jumped the gun and started filming / started production when things were clearly still in the negotiation phase.
Edit - When I ask what kind of contract, was it the "[x] I agree to the terms and conditions" when they started qualifying, was it a verbal commitment (irony after the whole eg-puma debacle), a physical contract sent to them in the mail, etc.
On August 12 2011 18:05 fraktoasters wrote: [quote]
bottom 8 spots?
But anyway, waking up at 4am is pretty bad. It warps your whole sleep schedule and cut into time you can use to practice with your teammates (who don't have bizarre sleep schedules). It's just a pain in the ass for 3 months just for the opportunity to lose more money by going to the finals.
Bottom 8 in the grand finals.
Waking up once a week at 4 am won't screw up your schedule.
yes it will.. see how useful this is?
And no you don't make more money by being in 16-9th place because they had to pay to get to the grand finals.
Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed.
On August 12 2011 18:05 fraktoasters wrote: [quote]
bottom 8 spots?
But anyway, waking up at 4am is pretty bad. It warps your whole sleep schedule and cut into time you can use to practice with your teammates (who don't have bizarre sleep schedules). It's just a pain in the ass for 3 months just for the opportunity to lose more money by going to the finals.
Bottom 8 in the grand finals.
Waking up once a week at 4 am won't screw up your schedule.
yes it will.. see how useful this is?
And no you don't make more money by being in 16-9th place because they had to pay to get to the grand finals.
Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time.
I don't get your argument.
I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying.
They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there.
On August 12 2011 18:09 fraktoasters wrote: [quote]
yes it will.. see how useful this is?
And no you don't make more money by being in 16-9th place because they had to pay to get to the grand finals.
Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so
they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began.
Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2.
On August 12 2011 18:13 jmbthirteen wrote: [quote] Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so
they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began.
I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for?
^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control.
On August 12 2011 18:50 jmbthirteen wrote: Total amount of money won by Koreans (on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $84,500 Average earnings per Korean(on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $10,562.50
Only Zenio, Boxer and Alive won the minimum $500 prize for 9-16th. The next two lowest finishers of the Koreans were Squirtle and Moon who both made $1,500. July won $5,000. MC won $25,000 and Puma won $50,000
Of teams that went: TSL won $50,500 oGs won $25,500 ST won $6,500 Fox won $1,500 Slayers won $500
I would say the Koreans made out pretty damn well on average from NASL. Teams should have in their contracts with players (if they have contracts... thats another discussion) that they receive a certain percentage of their players winnings. Teams definitely can make money off of NASL participation.
Keep in mind there is more to this than prize money. Most Korean teams don't have worldwide sponsors, and the korean-brand sponsors have no incentive to send the players abroad. If anything they'd prefer their players to keep a regular sleep schedule, so their GSL performance stays unhindered.
I won't be watching the NASL anyway because the VOD service was terrible, especially with the 25$ price tag.
(I would have to buffer for 20-30 minutes to be able to watch, and this was for each video, making it a chore to go through 4-5 VODs a day. The matches and casting were good)
On August 12 2011 18:11 Namu wrote: It seems really odd... a 2000 dollar traveling stipend really seems like enough. I'm guessing there are other reasons the korean players withdrew. Kinda sucks...
Well I won't be watching NASL this season I guess... the only reason I watched some NASL last season was because of the koreans. Without them, IPL has a much better production quality for me unfortunately
It's not $2000, they're offering $1000 travel stipend. On top of that, NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the Grand Finals and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that $1000 prize. It's asking players to take expenses out of their own prize money.
It's a $1000 travel stipend and a rearrangement of prize money to make it easier for the teams that can't afford to send their players to go by dipping into that prize money. They aren't asking the Koreans to pay out of the prize money, they're doubling the Ro16 prize money to make it easier on players who do need to dip into it in order to go.
That's exactly what I said, don't see why you needed to repeat it.
On August 12 2011 18:27 Saraf wrote:It's a reasonable offer; if they made other accommodations (such as play times) they probably could have worked something out at the negotiating table that doesn't lead to NASL quadrupling Season 1's travel stipend. But SC2con wouldn't even come to the table, or so it seems.
Whether it's reasonable is a subjective argument. I personally don't think it's reasonable. Also, SC2con asked them to pay for full traveling expenses for those that made it to the finals. NASL just wouldn't/couldn't accomodate.
I repeated it because you're spinning it into NASL being the bad guys for giving them that option. It's not as nice as a $2000 travel budget but maybe that's just something NASL can't afford to do. NASL is making that option available to them to ensure that nobody (or no team) loses money by going to the finals like last time (Boxer, Alive, Zenio).
SC2con made a pretty hefty demand of ~$1200 more in travel money per Korean player attending the Finals, which if it's anything like last time will be something like 8-10 (since there were going to be more Koreans this season). That's over $10000 that they wanted from NASL, and NASL offered to give them half plus the other concession. If they'd actually talked to NASL (apparently SC2con wasn't in the business of returning e-mails) then they might have gotten some non-monetary concessions like better scheduling and fixed wait times (no more than an hour, for instance) that made the whole deal more acceptable, or perhaps consented to fines for players who no-showed in lieu of some of the deposit. NASL's response of "we'll give you half to start and let's talk this out" is perfectly reasonable (and if you disagree, please tell me why) from a negotiating standpoint but SC2con would have none of it.
Why are you just assuming they weren't returning e-mails and were not willing to talk? Can you give us some source? Without it what you're saying doesn't carry much weight.. as in the original post I see nothing about sc2con not willing to talk about it.
I'm not assuming that, Xeris posted somewhere in this thread that SC2con would not return their e-mails and that Mr. Chae was their only point of contact; I will edit this post if I manage to dig it out. It was definitely either Xeris posting or NASL.tv, one of the two.
EDIT: It was NASL.tv (whoever within the organization that is), not Xeris. For reference:
On August 12 2011 08:26 Waxangel wrote: Why is Mr.Chae the SC2Con's mouthpiece here o_O?
I think GomTV has a seat there as an advisory role, but I thought sc2con would take care of something this big by themselves =o
We can't speak to the reasons behind this, but we repeatedly sent emails directly to the Korean team managers, and only received official responses from Mr.Chae of the GSL -- who was incredibly helpful and we at the NASL are very thankful for his efforts <3
On August 12 2011 18:07 jmbthirteen wrote: [quote] Bottom 8 in the grand finals.
Waking up once a week at 4 am won't screw up your schedule.
yes it will.. see how useful this is?
And no you don't make more money by being in 16-9th place because they had to pay to get to the grand finals.
Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed.
On August 12 2011 18:07 jmbthirteen wrote: [quote] Bottom 8 in the grand finals.
Waking up once a week at 4 am won't screw up your schedule.
yes it will.. see how useful this is?
And no you don't make more money by being in 16-9th place because they had to pay to get to the grand finals.
Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time.
I don't get your argument.
I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying.
They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there.
On August 12 2011 18:13 jmbthirteen wrote: [quote] Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so
they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began.
Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2.
On August 12 2011 18:19 fraktoasters wrote: [quote]
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so
they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began.
I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for?
^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control.
With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply.
Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament.
If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then.
On August 12 2011 18:11 Namu wrote: It seems really odd... a 2000 dollar traveling stipend really seems like enough. I'm guessing there are other reasons the korean players withdrew. Kinda sucks...
Well I won't be watching NASL this season I guess... the only reason I watched some NASL last season was because of the koreans. Without them, IPL has a much better production quality for me unfortunately
It's not $2000, they're offering $1000 travel stipend. On top of that, NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the Grand Finals and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that $1000 prize. It's asking players to take expenses out of their own prize money.
It's a $1000 travel stipend and a rearrangement of prize money to make it easier for the teams that can't afford to send their players to go by dipping into that prize money. They aren't asking the Koreans to pay out of the prize money, they're doubling the Ro16 prize money to make it easier on players who do need to dip into it in order to go.
That's exactly what I said, don't see why you needed to repeat it.
On August 12 2011 18:27 Saraf wrote:It's a reasonable offer; if they made other accommodations (such as play times) they probably could have worked something out at the negotiating table that doesn't lead to NASL quadrupling Season 1's travel stipend. But SC2con wouldn't even come to the table, or so it seems.
Whether it's reasonable is a subjective argument. I personally don't think it's reasonable. Also, SC2con asked them to pay for full traveling expenses for those that made it to the finals. NASL just wouldn't/couldn't accomodate.
I repeated it because you're spinning it into NASL being the bad guys for giving them that option. It's not as nice as a $2000 travel budget but maybe that's just something NASL can't afford to do. NASL is making that option available to them to ensure that nobody (or no team) loses money by going to the finals like last time (Boxer, Alive, Zenio).
SC2con made a pretty hefty demand of ~$1200 more in travel money per Korean player attending the Finals, which if it's anything like last time will be something like 8-10 (since there were going to be more Koreans this season). That's over $10000 that they wanted from NASL, and NASL offered to give them half plus the other concession. If they'd actually talked to NASL (apparently SC2con wasn't in the business of returning e-mails) then they might have gotten some non-monetary concessions like better scheduling and fixed wait times (no more than an hour, for instance) that made the whole deal more acceptable, or perhaps consented to fines for players who no-showed in lieu of some of the deposit. NASL's response of "we'll give you half to start and let's talk this out" is perfectly reasonable (and if you disagree, please tell me why) from a negotiating standpoint but SC2con would have none of it.
Why are you just assuming they weren't returning e-mails and were not willing to talk? Can you give us some source? Without it what you're saying doesn't carry much weight.. as in the original post I see nothing about sc2con not willing to talk about it.
I'm not assuming that, Xeris posted somewhere in this thread that SC2con would not return their e-mails and that Mr. Chae was their only point of contact; I will edit this post if I manage to dig it out. It was definitely either Xeris posting or NASL.tv, one of the two.
Even if sc2con did not return email, that's quite different from them not willing to talk... assuming dr. chae communicated effectively
On August 12 2011 18:11 Namu wrote: It seems really odd... a 2000 dollar traveling stipend really seems like enough. I'm guessing there are other reasons the korean players withdrew. Kinda sucks...
Well I won't be watching NASL this season I guess... the only reason I watched some NASL last season was because of the koreans. Without them, IPL has a much better production quality for me unfortunately
It's not $2000, they're offering $1000 travel stipend. On top of that, NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the Grand Finals and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that $1000 prize. It's asking players to take expenses out of their own prize money.
It's a $1000 travel stipend and a rearrangement of prize money to make it easier for the teams that can't afford to send their players to go by dipping into that prize money. They aren't asking the Koreans to pay out of the prize money, they're doubling the Ro16 prize money to make it easier on players who do need to dip into it in order to go.
That's exactly what I said, don't see why you needed to repeat it.
On August 12 2011 18:27 Saraf wrote:It's a reasonable offer; if they made other accommodations (such as play times) they probably could have worked something out at the negotiating table that doesn't lead to NASL quadrupling Season 1's travel stipend. But SC2con wouldn't even come to the table, or so it seems.
Whether it's reasonable is a subjective argument. I personally don't think it's reasonable. Also, SC2con asked them to pay for full traveling expenses for those that made it to the finals. NASL just wouldn't/couldn't accomodate.
I repeated it because you're spinning it into NASL being the bad guys for giving them that option. It's not as nice as a $2000 travel budget but maybe that's just something NASL can't afford to do. NASL is making that option available to them to ensure that nobody (or no team) loses money by going to the finals like last time (Boxer, Alive, Zenio).
SC2con made a pretty hefty demand of ~$1200 more in travel money per Korean player attending the Finals, which if it's anything like last time will be something like 8-10 (since there were going to be more Koreans this season). That's over $10000 that they wanted from NASL, and NASL offered to give them half plus the other concession. If they'd actually talked to NASL (apparently SC2con wasn't in the business of returning e-mails) then they might have gotten some non-monetary concessions like better scheduling and fixed wait times (no more than an hour, for instance) that made the whole deal more acceptable, or perhaps consented to fines for players who no-showed in lieu of some of the deposit. NASL's response of "we'll give you half to start and let's talk this out" is perfectly reasonable (and if you disagree, please tell me why) from a negotiating standpoint but SC2con would have none of it.
It's also perfectly reasonable to not take a deal you don't like. Nothing wrong with playing hard ball especially after getting shafted for an entire season. In the end it comes down to, there was no contract, NASL and Korea couldn't agree to terms, Korea pulls out. Regardless of what the terms are, Korea is most definitely NOT in the wrong for not playing if they don't want to and aren't obligated to play. From a fan's point of view, the only people we can blame is NASL for not having the contract done OR (if they can't meet demands) not having a contingency. Nothing else to it.
On August 12 2011 18:52 Blitz Beat wrote: The biggest question I have for NASL or anyone who knows is what type of contract did players sign (if they signed any at all)? Also, if the players/teams really did sign a contract, then its up to NASL to enforce it.
But with the information in the last 10~ pages... I find this to be rather commonplace in professional sports and don't get what the hubbub is about.
Example: Athlete goes to combine and works out, is rated as a high level athlete, gets drafted by a team. After being drafted, athlete/agent negotiate with the team the terms of their contract/deal. If they don't like what the team is offering, they can hold out and refuse to play. They wait until the team gives in to their demand or until they can't hold out any longer.
Why shouldn't the Koreans be able to negotiate their deal with NASL, even after qualifying? I find it rather silly that NASL jumped the gun and started filming / started production when things were clearly still in the negotiation phase.
Edit - When I ask what kind of contract, was it the "[x] I agree to the terms and conditions" when they started qualifying, was it a verbal commitment (irony after the whole eg-puma debacle), a physical contract sent to them in the mail, etc.
Pretty much everything you just said. And remember, it's not like the Koreans were treated fairly in season 1 and then asked for special accommodations in season 2. They got shafted by latency and scheduling the first time around, it's only natural that they play hard ball to make sure they get what they feel is fair for their players. NA/EU didn't have to deal with that so let's not use those comparisons please.
On August 12 2011 18:09 fraktoasters wrote: [quote]
yes it will.. see how useful this is?
And no you don't make more money by being in 16-9th place because they had to pay to get to the grand finals.
Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed.
On August 12 2011 18:35 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:31 Blitz Beat wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:19 fraktoasters wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:13 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:09 fraktoasters wrote: [quote]
yes it will.. see how useful this is?
And no you don't make more money by being in 16-9th place because they had to pay to get to the grand finals.
Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time.
I don't get your argument.
I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying.
They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there.
On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:19 fraktoasters wrote: [quote]
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so
they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began.
Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2.
On August 12 2011 18:39 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote: [quote]
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so
they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began.
I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for?
^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control.
With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply.
Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament.
If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then.
Again, why is talking about this during the preparation time unreasonable? that's exactly the time to talk about it, there's nothing unreasonable about it. And i think there was enough time fo NASL to comply, but they just couldn't or wouldn't. No contracts were signed, they talked about it, things didn't work out, they withdrew. I don't understand what's wrong with that...
some of the qqing in this thread whining "waaaah, i won't bother watching now, skill level too low" is extremely pathetic. by that rationale, none of you would have watched any of tsl2 as everyone there would get raped by every single korean b-teamer. if you bought tickets to, say, a ufc event, you'd only watch the main event. you'd never watch college basketball as their all-star team would lose to the worst nba team by 50. realise that even if the players aren't in the top 0.001% as you'd like, they can still provide INTERESTING AND EXCITING STARCRAFT. i'd rather watch two evenly matched na/eu gm's face off than see marineking play axslav. you want to watch top koreans? go watch the gsl.
as for the actual issue at hand, i'm undecided. nasl for sure could improve things that we're all aware of (as can EVERY tournament by the way), but by the same token the korean teams expecting nasl to meet every demand is unreasonable. should still be a good tournament without them.
On August 12 2011 18:50 jmbthirteen wrote: Total amount of money won by Koreans (on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $84,500 Average earnings per Korean(on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $10,562.50
Only Zenio, Boxer and Alive won the minimum $500 prize for 9-16th. The next two lowest finishers of the Koreans were Squirtle and Moon who both made $1,500. July won $5,000. MC won $25,000 and Puma won $50,000
Of teams that went: TSL won $50,500 oGs won $25,500 ST won $6,500 Fox won $1,500 Slayers won $500
I would say the Koreans made out pretty damn well on average from NASL. Teams should have in their contracts with players (if they have contracts... thats another discussion) that they receive a certain percentage of their players winnings. Teams definitely can make money off of NASL participation.
Keep in mind there is more to this than prize money. Most Korean teams don't have worldwide sponsors, and the korean-brand sponsors have no incentive to send the players abroad. If anything they'd prefer their players to keep a regular sleep schedule, so their GSL performance stays unhindered.
Of course there is. But thats why teams should be taking a portion of the winnings. Foreign teams do this. I remember Idra talking about this and how EG does receive a portion of his winnings. Its a pretty standard thing.
I completely understand why Korean teams are not playing in NASL. They can't afford to. Thats fine. But I think its ridiculous to ask NASL to pay for them to be in it. I also think its ridiculous that they went and qualified for the tournament only to drop out right at the start of the season.
On August 12 2011 18:09 fraktoasters wrote: [quote]
yes it will.. see how useful this is?
And no you don't make more money by being in 16-9th place because they had to pay to get to the grand finals.
Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
They were made in preparation for season 2. Which is when complaints should be made. Most teams wait until the offseason to do CBA's and the like so it doesn't interfere with or take away from the current play. It doesn't help that qualifiers took place during season 1 and the qualifiers were extremely rushed.
On August 12 2011 18:35 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:31 Blitz Beat wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:19 fraktoasters wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:13 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:09 fraktoasters wrote: [quote]
yes it will.. see how useful this is?
And no you don't make more money by being in 16-9th place because they had to pay to get to the grand finals.
Considering I do it on a regular basis and have a normal sleep schedule, it doesn't. My father has been waking up at 4 am for the past 25 years to go to work and has a normal sleep schedule (goes to sleep around 10pm). Doing it once a week will not screw up your schedule.
You don't make money because Korean teams are broke and cant afford the roughly $650 extra from the $1000 stipend. Thats not NASL's fault.
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
Not to agree or disagree but... Players qualify -> don't like the tournament or can't attend due to other circumstances -> withdraw / decline tournament spot. Happens in the North American / EU scene all the time.
I don't get your argument.
I don't like it and hate that it happens in any tournament by any player, regardless of where they are from. Its unprofessional. The players that qualify knew what they were getting into. They need to make their mind up before qualifying.
They need to make up their mind before qualifying? What are they making up their mind on? AFAIK, there is no set contract laid out before them that addresses the issues at hand before, or during qualifiers. If anything, that's the fault of the organizers for not getting on top of the ball and either having a contract or a contingency. And stop with the argument about the timing of their complaint. They complained in preparation for season 2. That is when they should be complaining. Not in the middle of season 1 playoffs where the complaints will cast a shadow over the remainder of the tournament given the Korean presence there.
On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:19 fraktoasters wrote: [quote]
Um ok.. I really couldn't care less if you're fine with that schedule but Korean (and Taiwanese) progamers definitely do, they've mentioned it repeatedly. Your ability to do it doesn't invalidate that they can't.
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so
they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began.
Again, that is when they should be making complaints to get things changed for season 2.
On August 12 2011 18:39 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:33 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:30 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:28 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:26 jmbthirteen wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:23 Namu wrote:
On August 12 2011 18:22 jmbthirteen wrote: [quote]
Then don't try and qualify for the fucking tournament! Simple as that. They weren't forced to. To play in this league its a sacrifice they have to make. Dont qualify for the tournament and then ask for everything to be changed and complain about the schedule.
Note they complained in between nasl 1 and nasl 2... which seems reasonable? not like they qualified then quit mid-season.
To me it seems that they complained after they qualified. And if you don't like the circumstances and complained before them, why even try to qualify?
I see your point, but weren't the qualifiers ran during season 1?
They were ran after the playoffs but before the grand finals. If all of this was such a big issue, why weren't these complaints made during season one? This is something that should have been worked on since then.
i'm pretty sure complaints about scheduling was made public by a few during nasl 1. We don't know if they talked about the stipends. I think they just didnt collectively talk about this during season 1 and ended up doing so between season 1 and 2.. which seems fine. If they talked about it for only like a couple of days then i'd say that's a problem, but we don't really know that so
they made no official complaints or asked for things to be changed until preparation for season 2 began.
I don't understand your point. Isn't that what "preparation time" is for?
^This. You might as well blame the scheduling if you're going to complain about when the Koreans complained. Which is completely under NASL control.
With qualifiers being at the tail end of season 1, you can't wait until season 1 is finished to make these complaints. They need to be made before qualifiers to allow NASL to try and comply.
Players and teams need to make up their mind about playing in the tournament. Pretty straight forward. No contract will be signed or offered before a player qualifies for the tournament.
If they had a long off season, then sure a complaint between the season makes sense. But when qualifiers take place at the end of season 1 and the off season is about a month, it needs to be talked about before then.
Read my post. It's standard procedure to talk about this stuff at during the offseason. If NASL wanted more time, they should have scheduled more time. If Koreans made a big fuss about lag and scheduling during the tournament, it would have been seen as excuses and whining which would have cast a shadow on their play. They did the right thing by complaining when they were supposed to...it's not their problem that scheduling didn't allow for a bigger window.
On August 12 2011 18:50 jmbthirteen wrote: Total amount of money won by Koreans (on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $84,500 Average earnings per Korean(on Korean based teams) at NASL Final: $10,562.50
Only Zenio, Boxer and Alive won the minimum $500 prize for 9-16th. The next two lowest finishers of the Koreans were Squirtle and Moon who both made $1,500. July won $5,000. MC won $25,000 and Puma won $50,000
Of teams that went: TSL won $50,500 oGs won $25,500 ST won $6,500 Fox won $1,500 Slayers won $500
I would say the Koreans made out pretty damn well on average from NASL. Teams should have in their contracts with players (if they have contracts... thats another discussion) that they receive a certain percentage of their players winnings. Teams definitely can make money off of NASL participation.
Keep in mind there is more to this than prize money. Most Korean teams don't have worldwide sponsors, and the korean-brand sponsors have no incentive to send the players abroad. If anything they'd prefer their players to keep a regular sleep schedule, so their GSL performance stays unhindered.
Of course there is. But thats why teams should be taking a portion of the winnings. Foreign teams do this. I remember Idra talking about this and how EG does receive a portion of his winnings. Its a pretty standard thing.
I completely understand why Korean teams are not playing in NASL. They can't afford to. Thats fine. But I think its ridiculous to ask NASL to pay for them to be in it. I also think its ridiculous that they went and qualified for the tournament only to drop out right at the start of the season.
Then it should also be ridiculous that they had to play in sub par conditions throughout online phase as well as not be given time to voice complaints. Think for a second about the implications that would have for the tournament if they made a big stink about scheduling and latency and pay while everyone was still playing.
EPT
